The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[RT.]

Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko

I completely disagree with a few of these last changes.

For one, Crobat is definitely S-tier material; refer to this post for my reasoning. Cofagrigus, while great, is not S-tier material. Why? It's one of those Pokemon that performs excellently against the average ladder player, but not nearly as well against one of a higher caliber (it's not easy doing a two-turn setup). In fact, I don't even think it's A-tier material--high B-tier definitely; A-tier is kinda questionable imo, but I don't feel too strongly about it.

(Why did you move it down anyway? No one's even debated it being S-tier)

Weavile and Porygon2 should stay in B and Zapdos should move down to A.

As for the whole Nidoqueen vs Nidoking debacle: neither one is A-tier worthy imo. Nidoqueen is high B-tier and Nidoking is low B-tier.

Looking at that list you put together, 5 out of the first 7 Pokemon you listed can OHKO Crobat after rocks if they anticipate the switch and use the appropriate move. That's not exactly what I'd call "being able to switch in with little trouble". Out of your list of walls/tanks, Crobat will have to risk being burned by Swampert, Suicune, Milotic, Blastoise, and Dusclops if it switches in. If Suicune uses Calm Mind as you switch in, you lose whether it's Offensive or Resttalk. If Togekiss uses Thunder Wave or Nasty Plot, you lose. Whether you beat them 1 on 1 is irrelevant because that situation is rarely going to present itself. Even if it does, you're not going to come out on top every time; there are too many variables that could change the outcome like Scald burns, non-standard movesets, etc. I can tell you right now you will flat out lose against Swampert and offensive Suicune. Crobat is a shaky check to pretty much every metagame relevant Pokemon you listed in that post, so I don't see how you can argue that it's S-tier material.

Originally Posted by Fat TPO3

Heck I'll debate that. I'll probably look like a noob but whatever.

I think Zapdos deserves the S-rank it has for a few reasons. First off, it's extremely versatile. Zapdos is probably the most versatile pokemon in the UU tier after Mew. You say that its most effective sets are strictly offensive, but this isn't necessarily true. Its physically defensive set actually makes it a great switch-in to common physical attackers, including but not limited to Heracross, Flygon, Hitmontop, Ambipom (lol), Mienshao, and Crobat, all of whom were in the top 20 of usage last month. Jolly Heracross's Stone Edge does 45.43-53.75%. Even after Stealth Rock damage, that's only a 2HKO. Barring Crits, if played properly, physically defensive Zapdos can potentially PP stall Heracross out of Stone Edges. If you manage to rapid spin properly, Stone Edge is only going to be a 3HKO unless you get 2 max calcs that both manage to hit.

Subroost Zapdos is potentially the most annoying pokemon in the tier. It PP stalls every low PP move on any pokemon that's slower than base 100, and just roosts off any damage it takes. Another thing I'd like to point out, Zapdos is potentially a more reliable offensive Electric-type to use on your team because of access to Roost. Raikou has no way to heal itself, and is also vulnerable to all forms of hazards.

I did say that its most effective sets are offensive, which means I don't think its defensive sets are effective. I'm skeptical of any defensive Pokemon that bears a weakness to Stealth Rock. In Zapdos's case, if Stealth Rock is on the field Flygon's Outrage, Heracross's Stone Edge, and Ambipom's Return are all 2HKO's, and Zapdos is slower in each case. If it requires a Spinner to perform decently, then it's not S-tier material in my opinion. I'll give you Sub Roost Zapdos though, I overlooked it and it is one of Zapdos's best sets.

Originally Posted by Fat TPO3

Finally, Zapdos has coverage options Raikou can't afford to run. Thunderbolt/Discharge is obvious on any Zapdos, but for remaining moves, you have to quess between HP Grass, HP Ice, Heat Wave, HP Flying, Toxic, and Roar. You can make an educated guess from the style of team you see in Team Preview, but you don't actually know what it's going to do. You might switch in Flygon only to catch a HP Ice for the KO. Or it could just be there to rack up hazard damage with Roar. I think Zapdos's coverage, and sheer versatility of possible sets should keep it up in the S tier.

Looking at the usage stats for September, 71% of Zapdos were either Timid or Modest, so the only situation in which I'd consider my opponent might be using a defensive variant is if I see they're using a stall team. So really, Zapdos has Heat Wave and Raikou has Calm Mind, and for typically offensive Pokemon Calm Mind is substantially better.


Okay, about the Nidoqueen-Nidoking issue. It basically comes down to Nidoqueen's bulk vs Nidoking's Speed, since they are otherwise the same Pokemon. While Nidoqueen's bulk isn't significantly better than Nidoking's, it does help it considerably to check Heracross and Mienshao, which is a big deal in this metagame. Queen can also take an unboosted Extrasensory from LO Raikou and a Hidden Power ice from LO Zapdos while Nidoking cannot. The advantages of Nidoking's additional Speed are basically limited to outrunning Chandelure, because everything else comes down to a speed tie. The ability to reliably check 4 extremely dangerous Pokemon outweighs Nidokings capacity for outpacing Chandelure, in my opinion. Nidoqueen is not drastically better, but it is better, so I think it should remain in the A-tier and Nidoking should remain in the B-tier.

[FlareBlitz]

All right. Regarding Nidoking v. Nidoqueen...consider the following sets. Nidoking Timid max Spe Spa, Nidoqueen Modest 100 HP max SpA rest in speed. We're considering Timid Nidoking because otherwise it loses the only thing that makes it worth using over Nidoqueen, and we're using 156 Spe / 100 HP Nidoqueen because it's the best set in this metagame.

Nidoqueen's bulk isn't just good for checking threats like Scarfcross and SubRoost Zapdos - it's also good for beating many defensive Pokemon one-on-one. Consider, for example, a 0 atk Bronzong. It cleanly 2hkos Nidoking with Earthquake, while having no more than a small chance to do the same to Nidoqueen. This allows Nidoqueen to servce as a much more solid check, not to mention helps insulate it from potential Fire Misses. Additionally, you can avoid getting revenge killed by things like Shaymin (ohkos nidoking, doesn't ohko nidoqueen), Scarf Victini (only has a slight chance of ohkoing nidoqueen with V-Create), Scarf Chandy, LO Zapdos, CB Crobat, Tornadus, and more. You don't realize how much the bulk helps until you play with Nidoqueen on a regular basis.

[NATdude]

Originally Posted by Fat JacobNinja

Ditto is an incredible revenge killer, able to shut down almost every choice or life orb user weak to itself, which is a surprisingly large group, and also is able to use the hidden power of its on things like raiku which don't naturally counter themselves.

Ditto is this good because of its ability to switch in and instantly transform, and steal stat boosts too. Having trouble with a +6 speed yanmega? get ditto in, and it can outspeed thanks to a choice scarf and counter yanmega with air slash. Dragon Dance kingdra wrecking your team? switch in ditto, and make use of your +1 atk/speed to outspeed kingdra with scarf and then ravage your opponent.

tl;dr Ditto is the god of revenge killing, certainly A tier, if not S tier. While it technically isn't in UU, due to its particular play style it is exactly as powerful as the tier it is in (it has its place in ubers too) so I think it should qualify for a UU ranking.

The main problem I've encountered against ditto is that it's only good against offensive based teams and some balanced teams. When facing Stall teams the match quickly becomes 5-6 just because ditto can't do much when copying the nonexsistant stat boosts of stall. Add to the fact that a balanced will see ditto coming and switch to their tank/support/wall pokemon to make the ditto switch useless. Finally, Ditto can't transform when the opponent is behind a sub. SubCM Raikou giving you troubles? Well your ditto that's supposed to stop that is now death fodder. Ditto can be useful, but isn't A rank. I would say C at best, but D would be a more accurate rank for the little pink blob.

Now for Zapdos and Cofagrigus.

Zappy is 100% S ranked. With a set like Thunderbolt/HP Whatever/Heat Wave/Roost, zapdos can sweep fully healthy teams. And while that is y favorite zap set there are ton of others. SubRoost, Specs, Scarf, sub+3 attacks, Super Stall Zapdos, etc. With so many viable sets Zapdos becomes as deadly as kingdra and for similar reasons, you don't know what to expect. With that in mind, I think Zapdos is S ranked. Sure a stealth rock weakness and lack of boosting moves makes Raikou a little better, but Raikou can't reliably recover health. Plus Zapdos is immune to ground type attacks which really comes in handy.

Cofagrigus has a really cool set with Pain Split/Calm Mind/Shadow Ball/HP Fighting that looks to be extremely effective. It combines the bulk of stallfagrigus and the power of Trick Room/NP. I've yet to try it out since I have to travel a lot this weekend, but if the set is as good as others say, it will make Cofagrigus S ranked for sure.

[Cesterp]

Going on the Crobat argument simply because I've already voiced my opinion on the Nidos and I haven't used Zapdos enough to be able to say much about it other than I've never had any specific problems with it against my Zapdos-less team. Raikou tends to be my go-to Zapdos counter, but Nidoking sometimes gets the job done, as well.

Anywho, Crobat isn't S. We defined S as being able to sweep through most of the metagame with little support, and have flaws outweighed by substantial strengths. That's not Crobat. Crobat counters other S-tier mons and multiple A-tiers that can provide a challenge for teams that aren't prepared for them. Yes, that's a really nice and useful thing to have on a team. What it doesn't do is sweep through the majority of the metagame. Rhyperior, Raikou, Suicune, Lanturn, Arcanine (defensive/bulky attacker), Empoleon, Swampert, Rotom-H, Bronzong, Slowbro, Weavile, Blastoise, P2, Azumarill, Bisharp, Magneton, Milotic, Scarf Flygon/Chandelure/Darmanitan/PZ, and quite frankly a lot of other things really don't mind going one on one against Crobat. So, Crobat switches out. Crobat switches back in later. Crobat is at 25% less health than before, switches out again because there's something it can't hurt on the other team, and loses another 25% for the next time. Unless you have rapid spin support, but that seems like team support to me, as none of our spinners are really all that fantastic. If you look at the other S Ranks and try to compose a list as big as I just did for Crobat, you'll find that it should be significantly smaller.

[DestinyUnknown]

Originally Posted by Fat /B/utterfree

1. Why is Blastoise not A Rank? It's the best RapidSpinner in UU and is often a key player in a lot of teams. Blastoise's indifference to a lot of spinblockers is present in its stellar movepool, which can Scald or Toxic a lot of the Ghosts in the tier without so much as a care.

Blastoise is really only scared of Roserade in terms of hazard setters/Pokes, and a lot of Pokemon are scared of Roserade in general.

It's not A Rank because outside of spinning, any other water-type pokemon on the tier is better than him, and Rapid Spin is the niche what makes Blastoise worth using on the tier, and that's what defines a ''B'' tier pokemon, a pokemon that, while isn't fabulous nor the best at his role, can perform well on the tier because it fills some niche. And honestly, Blastoise isn't the best spinner on the tier just for its own merits, but mostly because the rest of spinners simply suck. I will just quote the definition of a ''B'' pokemon, as it seems you haven't read it:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category

Originally Posted by Fat /B/utterfree

2. Why is Ambipom not in E Rank? I tried using this in early Gen V UU (back when I tried to use Gen IV Pokes in the tiers they were in originally) with predictably disastrous results. Weavile and Mienshao are both infinitely better at revengekilling and hit-and-run, respectively. Most teams almost always have an Ambipom counter, too; to do so is not hard at all.

Ambipom's uselessness in UU is also a common topic among many discussion groups, moreso than Dusclops. What makes it good enough to be in C Rank, pray tell?

Cesterp explained this already well, but I will post my thoughts anyway. Ambipom isn't a bad pokemon, it's just that people (and according to what I bolded, you do too) use it wrong. Using U-turn on Ambipom is, simply put, a bad idea, and a lot of people have already talked about this on differents thread on this forum, but there's simply no point on using U-turn Ambipom in Gen V, as, thanks to Team Preview, you're scouting nothing, because you already now from start what the opponent answer to Ambipom is. You also said that most teams have an Ambipom counter, and what's the problem here? Everybody also runs a Heracross counter, a Zapdos counter or a Darmanitan counter, and that doesn't make them bad pokemon, especially considering Ambipom can heavily damage (and sometimes even defeat) those counters with proper prediction. A Fake Out / Return / Low Kick / Shadow Claw (or Beat Up) moveset is what you should be using on Ambipom, as with that set, Ambipom can both abuse Fake Out and hit his counters (like Cobalion, Rhyperior, Cofagrigus etc) for high damage.

Originally Posted by Fat RT.

Okay, about the Nidoqueen-Nidoking issue. It basically comes down to Nidoqueen's bulk vs Nidoking's Speed, since they are otherwise the same Pokemon. While Nidoqueen's bulk isn't significantly better than Nidoking's, it does help it considerably to check Heracross and Mienshao, which is a big deal in this metagame. Queen can also take an unboosted Extrasensory from LO Raikou and a Hidden Power ice from LO Zapdos while Nidoking cannot. The advantages of Nidoking's additional Speed are basically limited to outrunning Chandelure, because everything else comes down to a speed tie. The ability to reliably check 4 extremely dangerous Pokemon outweighs Nidokings capacity for outpacing Chandelure, in my opinion. Nidoqueen is not drastically better, but it is better, so I think it should remain in the A-tier and Nidoking should remain in the B-tier.

I think we can all agree that Nidoqueen is slightly better than Nidoking in this metagame, but that isn't what we should be discussing here. Yes, Nidoqueen is better, but is it good enough to be in A tier? That's what we should be discussing, and not what of the 2 pokemon is better. In summary, we should be looking just at Nidoqueen when discussing in which tier she should be, without comparing she with Nidoking. And, in my opinion, Nidoqueen isn't good enough for A tier.

[SJCrew]

About Raikou beating Crobat: I've actually had Flare break right through mine with CB at 53%, which I was pretty sure wouldn't KO. Granted, he did roll absolute fucking max...

[PK Gaming]

Right, so i'm nowhere near close to settling this tier list, but i forgot to list some recent changes.

UU

Changes:

Cofagrigus up from A tier ==> S tier
Crobat stayed in S tier
Nidoqueen down from A tier ==> B tier

---

Yeah, you might have noticed that I finally moved Nidoqueen. Even though I still consider it an A-tier threat there have been an equal amount of good players on both sides arguing Nidoqueen's position, and if it stirs up THAT MUCH controversy then I don't think it's a solid A-tier threat (yet anyway). There's no doubt that's it better than King though, so when I arrange this tier list in "actual" competitive order it'll definitely be higher.

Things to talk about:
-Where would you tier Slowking, Ditto and Escavalier?
-Are Weavile & Porygon2 A tier material?

[NATdude]

I think Porygon2 is worthy of an A rank. It walls a ton of special attackers and some physical attackers with the right EV investment. It's movepool is pretty wide and he has a usable atack stat to actually damage the pokemon he's walling outside of toxic stall. The icing on the cake is trace. With Trace, porygon2 can shut down pokemon like chandelure by copying his ability flash fire and being immune to shadow ball. That's a top tier threat made completely useless. Porygon2 can also wall zapdos and raikou once their dream world abilities are released. Porygon2 has a ton of utility and should be A rank no doubt.

[Forsety]

-Where would you tier Slowking, Ditto and Escavalier?

Going strictly by the definitions set out.

Slowking is a solid B rank he can effectively be used like Cofagrigus who trades in for more hazard tolerance in exchange for less effective offensive coverage and switch in opportunities. Fundamentally his problem is he is outclassed by Cofagrigus unless used as a backup TR sweeper and Slowbro and is redundant with Slowbro and bulky waters sharing typing but different roles.

Escavalier is somewhere around a B/C rank probably more C rank, when it comes to raw power and keeping offense he is great. His primary STAB's are too easily shut down by fire types and fire attacks who do control UU offensively. Therefore he requires heavy support to be able to nuke consistently.

Ditto I'd make a exception for as I feel can not be ranked. Really you can't really rank something which depends entirely on your opponents team. He is a true wild card which can suddenly become S or E rank depending on the opponent.

-Are Weavile & Porygon2 A tier material?

I've voiced my opinion on Weavile already and I believe it is a very just barely A rank, set in question I've seen do the most damage is Sash+Swords Dance. A Sash set only needs decent hazard management to make it function. I'm not too fussed if someone else can argue it as aB ranker but it does also double nicely as a dangerous revenge killer and I'm not above recognizing how dangerous it is.

Pory2 I'm inclined to agree it is A rank on the fact alone it's Trace set is the only true Chandelure counter who is hands down the most powerful mon in UU. Hell I'd be arguing for Lure's status as S rank if Pory2 didn't exist and it's also useful outside of countering Lure. It's Download set also makes for a effective bulky sweeper and momentum stealer. The fighting weakness isn't as prominent when you consider it can survive a strong STAB and can work it's way around that. It's a excellent 'glue' for most teams.

[Bent1ey]

imo any ranking that gives Crobat a non-S rank would need to be renamed accordingly, as "offensive threats viability ranking", or something like that, because Crobat is obviously among the top performers in the very particular role it fits.

[MysticNova]

@Cesterp CB Crobat 2HKO's standard 252HP Porygon2 after Stealth Rock. If that's not power, I don't know what is. Weaker bulky waters like Milotic are also 2HKO'd, and if your max defense Suicune is even slightly weakened, it will be as well. If you are listing Scarf Pokemon as stops to a sweep, you might as well say Heracross or Raikou suck because they lose to the very scarfers mentioned. If a team is even slightly weakened, Crobat will sweep thanks to it's immense speed, and that speed means that it is very difficult to switch into, because things like Zapdos, which would be able to counter if it were faster, are 2HKO'd after SR. Things that do outspeed it or have priority, like Scarf Flygon, Darmanitan, Ice Shard Weaville, etc. cannot switch in because they get decimated by BB- 82% chance to OHKO Flygon after SR. Crobat, like any other, does have its counters, and it cannot outright sweep a lot of the time, except the fact that it checks a lot of the tier more than makes up for that. Crobat is solid both defensively and offensively at the same time, and I don't think much else in the tier can boast that. Definitely S-tier.

I don't like Cofagrius in S-tier, simply because it requires so much time to set up, is vulnerable to Taunt and status, is easily worn down, and lacks a lot of power even at +2, but it is the best Ghost in the tier (well depends on what you're looking for), so I don't really mind. I'm just saying it doesn't really match the definition of an S-tier pokemon imo.

Zapdos- S-tier. It's defensive sets have been placed under question, and since they are the reason why Zapdos has been called versatile and therefore S-tier, I will give my experiences of using defensive Zapdos. Zapdos has been absolutely solid, if there was anything I was not sure about, Zapdos would come in, and would be able to deal with the threat without many problems thanks to Roar and reasonably powerful Thunderbolts. These Thunderbolts have a 100% chance of OHKO'ing Tornadus (a big threat that Zapdos counters like crazy) without SR, and when combined with Heat Wave or a HP of your choice, mean that Zapdos can be a resilient attacker that is capable of checking various pokemon with ease. It is like a catch-all pokemon on my stall team, and its natural offensive power and speed make it very valuable. On a stall team without Roserade, its ability to force out bulky waters make it very valuable-especially when combating Blastoise, and with HP Flying, you can do the same with Hitmontop, Roserade, Shaymin, and Heracross. Having something that can take on the 2 most common spinners and the most common spiker both offensively and defensively is rather valuable for a stall team no? Other threats it takes on are Cobalion (with Iron Head), Yanmega, Togekiss, Virizion, Xatu, and Earthquake users. Now these all apply to a stall team, but it is actually better for balanced teams. It can check a wide variety of threats previously mentioned, but its greatest boon is the ability to take hits, hit back hard, and recover any health lost. Rather than look at what Zapdos can't do, look at what it can do. Zapdos isn't supposed to be countering Ambipom or Flygon, and if you are staying in on Heracross's Stone Edge I don't know what to say. Being immune to Spikes and resisting Fighting, Bug, and Grass makes up for an SR weakness. Zapdos is not a wall - think of Crobat, just that it checks different things and has different typing and stats. Offensively, Zapdos CAN sweep without much support. Its stats, coverage, and typing are all extremely solid, and the amount of Swampert and Rhyperior I have killed with HP Grass is unbelievable. The ability to lure them out is not only great for Zapdos's sweeping ability, but it also means Zapdos can support Raikou. The only thing Zapdos needs help with is with special walls, and any attacker needs help with walls, so that doesn't really apply.

Slowking and Esca are B-tier. Reasoning- they are *insert definition of a B-tier pokemon*. Don't know how else to put it lol. Ditto should fall under C-tier, since it cannot consistently execute its strategy, and even when it does, it is easily stopped in turn, and is just not very threatening. Porygon2 and Weaville are definitely A-tier. Porygon2 is a powerful defensive threat thanks to Eviolite and Trace, and if you don't have a way to break through it, you just lost the game. Offensively, it has great coverage and is rarely set up bait. If you aren't sure about something, switch in Porygon2 and it will do its job. Porygon2 isn't the only true counter to Chandelure, and actually isn't a true counter-it only is if Chandelure is running Flash Fire. I've used and faced Weaville before, and nothing stops this guy other than scarfers and priority. Not even SR is good enough because Weaville isn't supposed to be taking hits anyway. What it does is check sweepers with Ice Shard and sweep with everything else. It's coverage is fantastic, and means it can break through common physical walls like Gligar and Slowbro. That is something that not much else can boast, and Weaville would be S-tier if it weren't so terrible defensively.

Qwilfish should be at least B-tier. It walls physical Fire-types like many other Bulky Waters, but it also takes on Fighting-types like nothing. That means Qwilfish is not outclassed. These two types these two are found on nearly every team, so Qwilfish will be able to consistently execute its strategy- Spikes + Thunder Wave. Pain Split means Qwilfish is not easily worn down. Even as a spiker, Qwilfish is unique in UU because it resists Fire and has completely different resistances and is physically defensive. Thanks to Tornadus, Qwilfish can pose a powerful offensive threat with SD and Swift Swim, or even an offensive spiker that doesn't lose momentum with Explosion. All of these reasons mean Qwilfish at the very least does not fit the definition of a C-tier, but is also unique, multi-dimensional, and is consistent.

As a BL2 Pokemon (and therefore UU), I think Cresselia should be on this list somewhere? I've never really used it, so I don't think I'm going to really comment on its placement.

Ok, that was really long, but I've been wanting to post for some time now but never really had the time to.

[Scarfwynaut]

Yeah Im just getting into UU, so maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but I feel Honchcrow should be moved up to A rank.

Honchcrow can be a deadly late game sweeper, because with moxie, you can never really sack anything against it, meaning whatever counter you have, must stay throughout the match or being outright swept. I feel I have prepared myself pretty well for Honchkrow, and the little bugger still tends to late game sweep me. To sum up: Honchkrow a very powerful pokemon that with the tiniest amount of support, and be a very effective late game sweeper.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

Yeah Im just getting into UU, so maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but I feel Honchcrow should be moved up to A rank.

Honchcrow can be a deadly late game sweeper, because with moxie, you can never really sack anything against it, meaning whatever counter you have, must stay throughout the match or being outright swept. I feel I have prepared myself pretty well for Honchkrow, and the little bugger still tends to late game sweep me. To sum up: Honchkrow a very powerful pokemon that with the tiniest amount of support, and be a very effective late game sweeper.

As much as I love Honchkrow (see my avatar), I have to say that I don't believe he's A-rank material. As I said with Bisharp, he's extremely reliant on Sucker Punch to hit the large number of Pokemon faster than it, and considering how slow Honchkrow is, being faster than it isn't hard. This means that Honchkrow has to play mindgames in order to win, and while this does mean his opponent has to play mindgames as well, it just strikes me as unnecessary when you can just use Heracross and make things die with no thought process at all. It does get Brave Bird, and Flying-type STAB is actually an excellent thing to have in the Fighting-type dominated UU environment, but Honchkrow can't catch up to many of the Pokemon it'd love to hit with Brave Bird, like Mienshao, offensive Roserade, and Heracross, and most of them can OHKO or severely injure Honchkrow in return. It can remedy this somewhat with Choice Scarf, but it still can't get past other, faster Choice Scarf users (eh-hem, Heracross), meaning Honchkrow will still have to take a massive amount of damage first, if not be OHKO'd outright.

I love Honchkrow, but his depressing combination of poor speed, extreme frailty and weakness to Stealth Rock just make him more trouble than he's worth.

[PK Gaming]

Pretty simple changes today.

RU:

Changes:

Added Slowking to B tier
Added Escavalier to C tier

---

On Weavile: I agree with the sentiment that Weavile is just "barely" A-tier. Unfortunately, I don't think it's quite "there yet" atm. When I use it, half of the time it doesn't really do much, while theother matches it flat out dominates as a sweeper. I feel like it's a bit too inconsistent to be A-tier, and too dependant on your opponents team. It doesn't help that it has some annoying flaws (SR weak, weak base power moves and the inability to set up outside of forced switches due to its frailty) I don't feel like its on par with the other A-tier mons, but it's placement isn't set in stone, these are just my thoughts atm.

On P2: A few months ago, i wouldn't have a problem with placing P2 in A tier, after all it hard counters arguably one of the most annoying attackers in the game. Unfortunately a decent chunk of players are starting to opt for Flame Body to bypass it altogether, which isn't very good for it. Even worse is the existence of Mew & Virizion, 2 new threats that walk all over it.

RabidChipmunk more or less covered my thoughts on Honchkrow. It's good, but it has some notable flaws that keep it from being an absolute terror (garbage speed, SR weak, poor bulk and a massive vulnerability to Zapdos)

[Shinji Mimura]

just curious, why is Ambipom C-tier? From what all I've read, he is out-shined by Mienshao and is only ever used by people who don't even lift.

[TPO3]

Originally Posted by Fat DestinyUnknown

Cesterp explained this already well, but I will post my thoughts anyway. Ambipom isn't a bad pokemon, it's just that people (and according to what I bolded, you do too) use it wrong. Using U-turn on Ambipom is, simply put, a bad idea, and a lot of people have already talked about this on differents thread on this forum, but there's simply no point on using U-turn Ambipom in Gen V, as, thanks to Team Preview, you're scouting nothing, because you already now from start what the opponent answer to Ambipom is. You also said that most teams have an Ambipom counter, and what's the problem here? Everybody also runs a Heracross counter, a Zapdos counter or a Darmanitan counter, and that doesn't make them bad pokemon, especially considering Ambipom can heavily damage (and sometimes even defeat) those counters with proper prediction. A Fake Out / Return / Low Kick / Shadow Claw (or Beat Up) moveset is what you should be using on Ambipom, as with that set, Ambipom can both abuse Fake Out and hit his counters (like Cobalion, Rhyperior, Cofagrigus etc) for high damage.

Also I'd like to add Cresselia to C-tier. 120/120/130 defenses in addition to Levitate and multiple ways (Psycho Shift and Substitute, if not a cleric) to duck out of status is pretty cool. However, its only recovery option (Moonlight) gets 8 PP and is inconsistent now that we have Tornadus back to give us rain, it's weak to Heracross and Cofagrigus, and it has almost 0 power until it sets up multiple Calm Minds.

[Bent1ey]

Originally Posted by Fat Shinji Mimura

just curious, why is Ambipom C-tier? From what all I've read, he is out-shined by Mienshao and is only ever used by people who don't even lift.

Ambipom is very misplayed, but he has many redeeming qualities, like priority and high speed that set it appart from Mienshao. He's probably more used that he should, but he is still not an awful poke.

[NATdude]

Should Golurk be considered as well? Granted he's not that good, but he's still more viable in UU than dusclops. I was thinking C tier since he can fill so many roles. He can set stealth rock, spin block, tank hits with 3 great immunities and can hit hard with his coverage moves.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat NATdude

Should Golurk be considered as well? Granted he's not that good, but he's still more viable in UU than dusclops. I was thinking C tier since he can fill so many roles. He can set stealth rock, spin block, tank hits with 3 great immunities and can hit hard with his coverage moves.

I've been trying out Golurk too. I have to agree with this, because he actually works surprisingly well. He's not that bulky, but he seems to be just bulky enough, and his Iron Fist-boosted attacks really dent things. I've been using a set with Substitute/Shadow Punch/Focus Punch/Ice Punch, and he does pretty well with it. You can opt to switch out any of those moves for Stealth Rock, but I primarily use my Golurk offensively.

Yeah, C-tier sounds out pretty good for him.

[Grim Gregg]

I think Poliwrath is C Rank material. It does have under .5% usage, but it serves an important niche. Specifically this set-

...

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Poliwrath (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Waterfall
- Substitute
- Encore

The purpose is to switch in and force out water types. It can also encore anything that's base 85 speed (no investment) that goes for a non-threatening move. Nidoqueen/King are excellent help here, preventing Toxic/T-wave on Poli while luring out waters. This completely changes the momentum of the match, forcing something to take a stab Focus Punch. Or you can encore whatever breaks your sub, ensuring you'll have a safe switch in next turn. Examples-

Roserade- You can F Punch and do 41-49% on 252hp/120def or encore it into Giga Drain
Raikou- F Punch does 79-93% on 4/0, 65-77% on 128/76
Zapdos- If you have a Ground type, encore it into T-bolt and then F Punch predicting the switch.

If you need an answer to waters, but also need a fire/water/rock/bug/dark resist, he's your man.
P.S. GG Sleep Talk Suicune.

[TPO3]

Originally Posted by Fat NATdude

Should Golurk be considered as well? Granted he's not that good, but he's still more viable in UU than dusclops. I was thinking C tier since he can fill so many roles. He can set stealth rock, spin block, tank hits with 3 great immunities and can hit hard with his coverage moves.

C-Rank seems good. It's not quite amazing enough to be up with Cofagrigus or Froslass, but it definitely has niche qualities that should not be overlooked, one of those being that he can set up Stealth Rock and Spin Block. And he's not a terrible counter to Heracross.

[Doron]

Why is Dusclops E ranked where Cofagrigus is S ranked? I use Dusclops all the time, there's nothing else in the tier that works as well as a catch-all defensive pivot. I'd even go as far as saying that this holds true in the OU tier (too many pokemon are geared up to take down Ferrothorn).

Also, Claydol has a niche as (I think?) the only rapid spinner that can also run Dual Screens, which, combined with stealth rock, makes it taunt fodder like nothing else! Also a unique pokemon with a movepool which allows it to fill multiple support roles on a team while taking up only one slot. But mostly taunt fodder.

[Pokemazter]

Originally Posted by Fat Doron

Why is Dusclops E ranked where Cofagrigus is S ranked? I use Dusclops all the time, there's nothing else in the tier that works as well as a catch-all defensive pivot. I'd even go as far as saying that this holds true in the OU tier (too many pokemon are geared up to take down Ferrothorn).

Also, Claydol has a niche as (I think?) the only rapid spinner that can also run Dual Screens, which, combined with stealth rock, makes it taunt fodder like nothing else! Also a unique pokemon with a movepool which allows it to fill multiple support roles on a team while taking up only one slot. But mostly taunt fodder.

Because neither of those two are rather effective at what they do. Cofagrigus in the long run is bulkier, as it has a usable HP stat and reliable recovery (sorta). Any other Ghost may not be as bulky, but can also bring an offensive punch, which Dusclops simply can't - Seismic Toss doesn't exactly count.

It may seem Claydol has that niche, but very rarely will it find the time to accomplish multiple roles. It's simply too weak to this metagame. A vast majority of the top 30 Pokemon in UU can and will beat Claydol one-on-one. Claydol also have this terrible inability to switch in on anything bar a Choice Electric-or Ground-type move, which severely diminishes its ability to perform its roles. Good on paper, terrible in practice.

[/B/utterfree]

Originally Posted by Fat Doron

Why is Dusclops E ranked where Cofagrigus is S ranked? I use Dusclops all the time, there's nothing else in the tier that works as well as a catch-all defensive pivot. I'd even go as far as saying that this holds true in the OU tier (too many pokemon are geared up to take down Ferrothorn).

Also, Claydol has a niche as (I think?) the only rapid spinner that can also run Dual Screens, which, combined with stealth rock, makes it taunt fodder like nothing else! Also a unique pokemon with a movepool which allows it to fill multiple support roles on a team while taking up only one slot. But mostly taunt fodder.

1. Dusclops is E-Ranked because, while a defensive pivot nevertheless, it is single-handedly the worst defensive pivot in UU; its evolved form, Dusknoir, is much better than it (I've done extensive playtesting back in B1W1 to firmly keep this opinion) thanks to being able to actually hit things (with SubPunch, which admittedly is just good on almost anyone lol). Clops also loses to every Rapid Spinner because it needs Seismic Toss / Night Shade to do any damage back (whereas other spinblockers can run actual attacks), and with Eviolite its recovery is solely in Pain Split, a not-so-reliable move. Furthermore, most RapidSpinners have moves which do SE damage to Clops, or can otherwise cripple it with burns or other status (which Dusknoir and all other Ghosts also despise!).

Cofagrigus is better than Dusclops because its defensive stats are better, and it can run Special moves without a worry thanks to Nasty Plot and Trick Room. It also isn't dependent on Eviolite and also boasts most of Clops' movepool, too, so it can run Leftovers and still have recovery. Furthermore, Cofagrigus' ability, Mummy, neuters almost every Physical attacker in UU and below. UU is a tier that seems to enjoy Physical attackers way too much, thus Cofagrigus' presence is actually very welcome.

2. Claydol does have a niche, yes. However, for a Levitating Rapid Spinner, one could use Cryogonal instead and be slightly better off (the latter even has Recover to heal off possible damage, and a more potent Special Attack to say good night to Spinblockers with Ice Beam).

That said, Claydol should be C Rank, imo. It's still better than the Hitmons as Rapid Spinners (it can run Shadow Ball to deal with Ghosts, whereas Hitmonchan and Hitmontop have basically nothing), albeit barely. Doron makes a point that Claydol is a multi-utility mon with Dual Screens and other stuff, too. Alas, it is outclassed in these utilities mainly in part to Cresselia, the only advantage over Cresselia being Rapid Spin itself.

However, Claydol is average nevertheless and it still loses to as many spinblockers as the Hitmons do. It's in D Rank because it's a Rapid Spinner that's weak to Ghost-type STAB moves from the spinblockers it wants to conflict with. Otherwise, it's still an average Pokemon. And yes, it is slightly Taunt Bait if it tries to do Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, and Dual Screens all at the same time. However, Replacing Dual Screens with moves, or replacing Stealth Rock with Shadow Ball, actually averts that problem. Don't make a set that puts all its eggs in one basket!

[Doron]

I agree that Claydol should be a low to mid C rank pokemon. However, I think that you're underestimating the value of being a levitating ground type. In addition, Claydol has good speed for a defensive pokemon and with the dual screens it sets up it becomes incredibly bulky, able to sponge a Hurricane from Tornadus-I and only lose ~20% hp counting leftovers.

However, although when I used Claydol it was a solid team supporter that managed to win me quite a few battles, It's certainly not the most viable dual screener in UU. In fact, I was testing out a Virizion dual screener set with 252 hp / 252 sp and Reflect / Light Screen / Leaf Blade / Synthesis (Leaf Blade over Giga Drain to deal with CMcune). Because Virizion is commonly seen as a setup sweeper, it often forces switches, allowing you to set up screens easily. I've only used it in about 5 matches though, so I don't have the authority to say that it's a top-tier dual screener.

Has Meloetta been tiered yet? I was playing with a mixed sweeper Meloetta on a joke team (252 atk / 104 sp. atk / 152+ spd [outspeeds + natured Raikou in Pirouette form], Relic Song / Close Combat / Return / Psychic) and it's an incredibly versatile and surprisingly physically sturdy pokemon, given that I was running a -defense nature. I'd put it as high B rank pokemon, possibly even A rank.