The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[NATdude]

I've yet to use meloetta, but I've seen it used and it can rip a team apart. Mixed variants can switch between relic song and can take out any walls that try to stop it. Granted it's not as good as other mixed sweepers that don't have to spam an attack to change frames, but it's still pretty good. B rank for sure.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat Doron

Has Meloetta been tiered yet? I was playing with a mixed sweeper Meloetta on a joke team (252 atk / 104 sp. atk / 152+ spd [outspeeds + natured Raikou in Pirouette form], Relic Song / Close Combat / Return / Psychic) and it's an incredibly versatile and surprisingly physically sturdy pokemon, given that I was running a -defense nature. I'd put it as high B rank pokemon, possibly even A rank.

I've been trying out Meloetta as well. It seems really hard to find the best EV spread for it (I run 178 Atk / 100 SpA / 232+ Spd, which ensures that Pirouetta always outspeeds Weavile), with a moveset of Relic Song / Psychic / Close Combat / Shadow Claw, and I have to say that it can do work. Unfortunately, my spread really can't do much in Aria form since it's spread is so biased on the physical side, but we'll just have to keep working with it. I recommend a solid B rank.

Has anyone tried a non-mixed Meloetta? Even if it only ever stayed in it's Aria form, it has moderate potential to be a special tank.

[NATdude]

What about virizion? I've heard a lot of people argue that it won't function well in UU. I've yet to test it due to the release of the new games, but I've battled it and it seems pretty good. Can anyone else comment on it?

[cim]

Rotom-H deserves a higher rank in my opinion. It's a flawless Raikou / Zapdos / Crobat switch in and its Overheat can 2HKO basically anything that doesn't resist it. The EQ immunity lets it come in a lot more easily than Chandelure can and it actually beats Porygon2 one on one. Maybe not on the same tier as Chandelure, but it's higher than C rank.

[Doron]

I've used Virizion a bit more since my last post and I've got to say, it's incredibly underwhelming. Grass / Fighting STABS are too easily walled, 90/90 base attacking stats are sub-par in a metagame filled with attackers carrying 120+ attack / special attack stats. It's oddly weak to burns for a grass type and I'd generally say that Roserade, Shaymin or even Meloetta outclasses it. It has a niche as a 108 base speed specially bulky mixed attacker, but that niche just isn't useful in a tier with pokemon like Roserade, Shaymin, Victini, Darmanitan, Chandelure, Azelf, Crobitch, Yanmega, et cetera. It has a versatile movepool, but versatility =/= viability

tl;dr Virizion is unimpressive, high C rank because of its good stats but useless niche.

[TPO3]

I could potentially see Virizion as a low B-rank.

It appears to be outclassed by Roserade and Shaymin, however it has a very different role than these two. Roserade is a spiker, and uses huge STAB Leaf Storm to kill stuff. Shaymin is either a SubSeeder, or scares stuff out with Seed Flare and coverage moves. Virizion does none of these things. It's a sweeper. Virizion is the only Grass-type in the tier that can use Swords Dance, and it does it pretty well. It can use either Hidden Power Ice to break through Gligar, or it can nail Zapdos and Crobat as they switch in with Stone Edge. While its typing is terrible on the defensive end, it has pretty good Offensive STAB, Flying is the only type that resists both, and Stone Edge covers it very well. Calm mind is also decent, as Virizion will have a somewhat decent form of recovery, thanks to Giga Drain. It does have to unfortunately use Focus Miss for fighting STAB, but if it hits, it's going to hurt. A lot. Virizion is also the only grass-type that can set up Dual Screens, and it can use Taunt, which could give an offensive team momentum right off the bat. Or it could use Work Up (lol).

tl;dr: Virizion has several options to consider being used over its grass companions. It's a viable sweeper that can be quite threatning, but It won't be getting A-Rank any time soon. I could see it as a Mid or Low B-Rank. I think it's higher than a C-Rank.

[Doron]

[QUOTE=TPO3;4426583]
Virizion does none of these things. It's a sweeper. Virizion is the only Grass-type in the tier that can use Swords Dance, and it does it pretty well. It can use either Hidden Power Ice to break through Gligar, or it can nail Zapdos and Crobat as they switch in with Stone Edge. While its typing is terrible on the defensive end, it has pretty good Offensive STAB, Flying is the only type that resists both, and Stone Edge covers it very well. Calm mind is also decent, as Virizion will have a somewhat decent form of recovery, thanks to Giga Drain. It does have to unfortunately use Focus Miss for fighting STAB, but if it hits, it's going to hurt. A lot. Virizion is also the only grass-type that can set up Dual Screens, and it can use Taunt, which could give an offensive team momentum right off the bat. Or it could use Work Up (lol).

Sceptile is an arguably better grass SD sweeper due to Acrobatics and Unburden, as well as its' natural 120 base speed. Virizion is not the only grass type that can use Dual Screens, and Meganium is arguably better due to its' access to Aromatherapy and Leech Seed (I don't think Virizion gets LS?). Also, Virizion's dual STAB is also resisted by mono-bug types, which gives an easy switch in to the resident king of UU... The Beast, the LEGEND, HERACROSS!!!

[TPO3]

Sceptile isn't always a better sweeper. Virizion has a few perks. Virizion has slightly higher base attack, 90 compared to Sceptile's 85. Virizion also has more defense, 90/72, as opposed to Sceptile's 70/65. This means Virizion has a much higher chance of surviving priority attacks, like Extremespeed, Mach Punch, and Bullet Punch.

Most importantly, however, Virizion has a better offensive STAB combination, as well as the ability to fit all the coverage it wants on one set. Sceptile only has Leaf Blade for STAB, which doesn't help it in UU, leaving it walled by Bug, Steel, and Flying-types alike. Virizion has a secondary STAB in Close Combat, which nukes Steel-types. Sceptile is forced to choose between Earthquake, Rock Slide, and Acrobatics in the last 2 moves. If you're using Acrobatics as you suggest, you need to pick between the other two. using Earthquake leaves you walled by Crobat, Zapdos, and Togekiss. Using Rock Slide leaves you walled by Registeel, Cobalion, and resisted by Bisharp. Virizion can run both Close Combat and Stone Edge to hit all of these pkmn on one set.

[Aecor]

Claydol should be C ranked. I have been playing with Claydol in UU and I am ranked in the top 50. I'm not saying that's good by any means, in fact, the only good UU players are those in the top 30. Anyone else who has beaten me below those ranks are usually through hacks/hax, not so much out-playing.

Claydol is an excellent mixed wall. Personally, I run a Specially Defensive Claydol. The reason behind is it's stellar 120 base Special Defense. Sure it's HP is disappointing, but it is a good utility Pokemon. By having Rapid Spin AND Stealth Rock on one pokemon, I can run a physical wall that can phase out other pokes. Otherwise, I would have to stick with a Blastoise/Bronzong Core.

Claydol is a counter to the standard CM Raikou. It is 3HKed by HP Ice/Grass/Water after SR, but in that time, Claydol can easily break the sub with Earthquake. Ice Beam is used to deal with Xatu. The only "real" counter to Claydol is Mismaguis that is SubCM. Claydol is also generally a good pivot-switch. It doesn't do much besides set up rocks, but it's at least better than Azelf/Suicide Leads.

Weavile should be A ranked. Priority STAB, a great Attack and Speed stat, enough said. I run a SD Weavile with Lum Berry with a custom EV spread, and it does work. It is a Chandy counter and P2 killer. Chandy will more often than not lock itself into Shadowball since my team is quite Ghost Weak. Weavile, with my custom EV spread, will OHK any Chandy that isn't defensive, and is only 2HK'd with absolute max damage twice over from Timid Scarfed Chandy.

[PK Gaming]

Ok, quick change

RU

Changes:

Rotom-H up from C tier ==> B-tier

---

Discussion of the day, where do you think the new drop downs(Virizion, Meloetta & Tornadus) should be tiered? There's been some talk about placing them in certain tiers already, but I think it's about time we actually tier them.

[jamashawalker]

Just from reading general discussions it seems like all of them should be C tier except for Virizion who is sitting at about a low B tier. But again thats just from reading discussions and not actually playing

[Tyranitarphantom]

I'd put Tornadus in B-tier. Tornadus itself isn't amazing, but it is a decent offensive threat, and most importantly, it can set up Damp Rock Rain Dance every time. This opens the door for many other Pokemon to become near-unstoppable threats, such as Kingdra and Kabutops. Even if you kill Tornadus right after he sets up the rain, you still have to deal with the immense power of Swift Swim mons for 8 turns. Outside of a rain team, I don't see Tornadus being very useful. I haven't run into an Acrobatics Tornadus yet.

Virizion might also be B-tier. I used SD+3 Attacks Virizion some, but I couldn't call it anything better than "just ok." It did a good job at checking bulky waters (assuming it didn't get burned by Scald as it came in), but I rarely got real sweeps with it. I ended up replacing it with Mienshao, and I haven't looked back.

I also must ask: why isn't Roserade S-tier? The standard Spiker set comes in for free on half of the meta, and the only thing that can stop it from getting a free layer of Spikes is Xatu, who is A: easy to see coming, and B: very easy to play around. The only other way of getting rid of Spikes is to use a spinner, and we all know how bad every spinner except Blastoise is. Blastoise itself can't come in on Roserade, so you have to first counter Roserade, then bring Blastoise in later. Damage from Spikes really racks up fast. Roserade is also somewhat difficult to take out, with Natural Cure and Rest (or Synthesis/Leech Seed) to keep it's health up. If you opt to not run Spikes, you can also cripple something with her very powerful Leaf Storm, and put one Pokemon out of commision with Sleep Powder.

The definition of a Pokemon in S-tier includes "Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns")." Roserade is one of the best Pokemon in UU at abusing free turns. Also, "Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively" fits Roserade to a T. She fits on pretty much every team, and is extremely effective in general. I really believe Roserade deserves to be in S-tier

[mrb]

Originally Posted by Fat Tyranitarphantom

I also must ask: why isn't Roserade S-tier? The standard Spiker set comes in for free on half of the meta, and the only thing that can stop it from getting a free layer of Spikes is Xatu, who is A: easy to see coming, and B: very easy to play around.

You are overestimating Roserade. It is actually pretty frail and works defensively because of its typing. It certainly cannot come in for free on half the metagame, because almost everything has something to hit Roserade (mostly because of its typing and because it's so widely used). Roserade can only come in for free on weak special attackers, walls, a set up move, and bulky waters (which is even shaky for something like Slowbro). The only reason that Roserade is so high in usage is its movepool -- Toxic Spikes and Spikes are very rare moves to have. That is for the defensive set. The offensive set is pretty good, but suffers from bad coverage. Also, Shaymin outclasses offensive Roserade in almost every way, save Sleep Powder.

So, no. I don't think Roserade should be S-Tier.

[Bent1ey]

Roserade may not be the flavor of the day, but it remains one powerful, resilant spiker with power to back it up, it helps to be able to scare away the only decent spinner in the tier (and Claydol I suppose). One of the best supporting pokemon in the tier. Of course Roserade works defensively for its typing, that's what its typing it's four since we know it carries no impressive offensive STABs, and it's movepool is obviously it's draw... How is that bad since it is practically better than any other movepool in the tier?

[Silvershadow234]

Tornadus is defintely at least A tier. The Bulk Up Acrobatics set works wonders in the current metagame, and works a lot like Heracross and Raikou, in that once it's counters are removed, you basically win before the match has started. Now that it has Superpower, it is even harder to counter, as it doesn't have to lower its speed with Hammer Arm. The rain dance set is an excellent supporter and great rain abuser as well, with Hurricane hitting incredibly hard in the rain. Remember, it hits harder than Tornadus-T in OU with that Hurricane, i.e. very hard indeed. It is also capable of checking Virizion and Mienshao, two rather common pokemon in the tier. It isn't capable of countering them though like Crobat, which is why I don't think it belongs in S tier, but Tornadus is a major threat to watch out for.

[FrostFireBolt]

I personally find Cofagrigus' position at the S-Rank questionable. While I don't doubt that it's a good pokemon and definitely A-Rank I often find it underwhelming. Even after a Nasty Plot I find that its not quite powerful enough to net KO's when I need them (trick room is annoying as hell though). Nor is it as specially bulky as I want it to be which is problematic. Maybe I just get unlucky with damage rolls, only stating my two cents.

As for Virizion, I think it's alright so far. It has a lot of opportunities to set up on bulky waters - although physical variants can get unlucky with scald burns on the switch. Crobat definitely hampers its effectiveness though.

Tornadus misses his perma-rain but if I can live with Focus Blast's accuracy then I can forgive Hurricane. I tried an Agility set with Air Slash, Focus Blast and Dark Pulse which worked reasonably well as a Cleaner. I guess I would put them down as B-Rank though Tornadus maybe leans towards A.

[panamaxis]

yeah agreeing with cofag for A tier. Good pokemon but having to TR and NP to 'sweep' is a pretty big handicap and because of this it's not going to be doing it consistently. When you take into account that the TR turns can be burned by double switching in immunities or protecting.... sounds like a solid A tier to me.

Gligar should be at least B rank, its physical bulk is huge, being very tough to physically 2HKO without a water or ice move and is a great catch-all to a lot of physical attackers even if it doesn't resist their moves (rhyperior/darm/flygon/hera etc.). SR, instant recovery, poison and twave immunity, yeah it's too good for C tier.

Milotic for an easy B tier. Pure water with recovery gives it a nice niche over other water types, it can sleep phaze and haze, and it can take on chandelure and kingdra at the same time which is very cool. Unlike slowbro it's not getting wrecked by megahorns and shadow balls and it makes a great switch into all the ground types as well. Refresh is very viable too and a simple set of scald dtail recover refresh means you can phaze/burn a lot of mons while the walls can't toxic you to death. I think this stuff should be enough to grant it B tier since it isn't really strictly outclassed by any of the other bulky waters.

Tbh I'm not sure if suicune should be B tier, and it should never be a tier above milotic in any case. If anything I'd argue that suicune is outclassed as milotic/slowbro/slowking do the bulky water thing better (cos recover, new rest mechanics kind of ruined suicune) while slowbro is arguably a better CMer because new rest mechanics make crocune or sleeptalk-less cune deadweight against anything that can phaze.

[RT.]

Originally Posted by Fat panamaxis

yeah agreeing with cofag for A tier. Good pokemon but having to TR and NP to 'sweep' is a pretty big handicap and because of this it's not going to be doing it consistently. When you take into account that the TR turns can be burned by double switching in immunities or protecting.... sounds like a solid A tier to me.

Needing two turns to set up isn't much of a handicap for a Pokemon with 58/145/105 defenses, especially considering one turn will most likely be on a switch. As someone who has used Cofagrigus extensively, I can tell you that Protect stalling and switching between your Normal and Ghost type to burn Trick Room turns are terrible methods of dealing with Cofagrigus. In all likeliness, you're just going to give the Cofagrigus user a free Nasty Plot or two and enough turns of leftovers recovery that you won't even be able to force it out when Trick Room expires...unless your opponent is completely awful at predicting and makes the obvious move every turn. Also, team support, spinblocking, and countering almost every Normal- and Fighting-type in the tier are other elements that contribute to Cofagrigus being S-tier, not just its sweeping potential.

[MikeDecIsHere]

Tornadus-I is an interesting Pokemon. There are actually several things that I would consider when trying to rank Tornadus-I. Prankster Substitute is really nice for scouting out the opponent's move set. Prankster Taunt is also pretty useful for handling some annoying things like Sableye and the rare Riolu. It also has some awesome team support moves. Rain Dance is the first thing that comes to most people's mind, but Tornadus also has access to Tailwind, making that CB Darmanitan or Victini much scarier since they can outpace your scarfers and kill almost anything in the tier that doesn't resist.

Offensively, Tornadus can run Bulk Up Acro, but it can also run Rain Dance LO with Hurricane / Focus Blast / Filler. I could go into more detail, but I'm sure most of us know how Tornadus works based on its previous encounter in the UU tier.

Overall, I would give Tornadus a low A-Tier rating, mainly since no other Pokemon has access to Priority team support moves (Tailwind / Rain Dance) as well as being a legitimate offensive threat.

[panamaxis]

Originally Posted by Fat RT.

Needing two turns to set up isn't much of a handicap for a Pokemon with 58/145/105 defenses, especially considering one turn will most likely be on a switch.

Cofagrigus has the bulk to make 2 turn set-up workable yes but I don't know how having to use 2 turns to set up a sweep and then having your sweep on a turn limit isn't a big handicap... Even though fighting types are pretty rampant atm, I don't think it's fair to assume cofagrigus is always going to get a free turn on a switch when consistency is a big part of S-tier.

As someone who has used Cofagrigus extensively, I can tell you that Protect stalling and switching between your Normal and Ghost type to burn Trick Room turns are terrible methods of dealing with Cofagrigus. In all likeliness, you're just going to give the Cofagrigus user a free Nasty Plot or two and enough turns of leftovers recovery that you won't even be able to force it out when Trick Room expires...unless your opponent is completely awful at predicting and makes the obvious move every turn.

Yeah ok, good point, I concede it's not as easy/viable in practice as I'm making it out to be but it is still a massive pain having your sweep on an explicit time limit.

Also, team support, spinblocking, and countering almost every Normal- and Fighting-type in the tier are other elements that contribute to Cofagrigus being S-tier, not just its sweeping potential.

Yeah I realise that, and there's no denying cofagrigus is great at that but it seems like cofagrigus's added sweeping potentential is what is putting it in S-tier, unless you think it should be there for walling/spinblocking alone? The fact that this sweeping ability is hampered by needing 2 turns and then having your sweep on a timer means that it's not good enough for S-tier in my opinion.

S-tier should be reserved for the best of the best and a mon with such significant hinderances shouldn't get there. Cofagrigus is great no doubt, but not quite S-tier to me. I don't think these flaws are thoroughly mitigated by its strengths.

P.S. Fighting types yes but unless I'm missing something cofagrigus is only really setting up on porygon-2 since togekiss/meloetta just don't care about it and snorlax nearly always has either WW or crunch. I never see cincinnos or porygon-zs but i guess you can count them as set-up bait if you really want to

[Bent1ey]

Originally Posted by Fat panamaxis

S-tier should be reserved for the best of the best and a mon with such significant hinderances shouldn't get there. Cofagrigus is great no doubt, but not quite S-tier to me. I don't think these flaws are thoroughly mitigated by its strengths.

As far as defensive pokemon/counters that can switch gears and go into the offensive, Crobat and Cofarigus are pretty much the best. Neither of them is self-suficient as a sweeper, but both can perform those roles correctly if given the opportunity. Cofagrigus is simply less tempo oriented than others in S ranking, but with its wild ability to buy turns makes up for it, mostly.

[PK Gaming]

UU

Changes:

Gligar up from C tier ==> B tier
added Meloetta to A tier
added Virizion to A tier
added Tornadus to A tier
---

I've actually been thinking about moving Gligar up for a while now. It gets a bad rap for letting too many dangerous threats set up all over it, but that's the price you pay for using something that shuts down Heracross and checks pretty much every single physical attacker in the tier. People should use U-turn on it, since you can take a hit, and swap out as your opponent invariably brings in their blastoise or roserade or whatever.

Meloetta, Virizion and Tornadus seem like A-tier threats, though most of the ladder players aren't using them for some reason. Meloetta gets some flak for being a "lesser mew" and that may be true, but is that really a bad thing? CM Meloetta is one of the very best sweepers in the tier, and it's legitimately hard to kill (like Mew). The relic mixed set definitely cool, but I found that Step-forms power was kind of disappointing. Virizion is great in UU because it's actually very hard to counter! If you're not running Crobat, it'll be tough trying to deal with its SD sets, which are capable of breaking through every single wall in tier with ease (Even physically defensive Zapdos loses to this thing). Virizion is definitely a Pokemon to watch out for. Tornadus is great because of it's blistering speed & 2 wildly different sets. The Acrobatics set is actually very good since it's hard to stop lategame, and lone Rain Dance + 3 atks set is fairly hard to counter (though it needs to waste a turn rain dancing :<). I haven't even begun to scratch the surface with Tornadus though because I didn't even talk about its use on Rain Dance teams, which are 5X better now because of him.

Obviously this is subject to change, so feel free to argue some more!

[Grim Gregg]

I disagree with Gligar being a tier above Umbreon. Gligar has no offensive presence and does little beyond setting up rocks and taking hits. You can U-Turn after checking a threat, but with no passive recovery those attacks and hazards rack up quick. It's a liability. Umbreon on the other hand can utilize Foul Play for some offensive pressure. Not to mention Wish/Protect/Heal Bell/Sucker Punch and even Baton Pass to pass a Wish unhindered/dodge the Heracross switch in. It's ability to check Kingdra should also be noted. Foul Play can destroy physical variants, while Wish/Protect can handle Rain Dance sets (barring crits).

252SpAtk Life Orb Kingdra (+SAtk) Hydro Pump in Rain vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Umbreon (+SpDef): 51% - 60% (202 - 238 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

[Reaver12]

I'd like to make a case for Snorlax to be S-Rank. Snorlax counters every single special attacker, from Zapdos to Chandelure (the only exception being CM Cobalion I believe). He has an offensive presence as well, being able to actually KO most special attackers 1v1, and some of them almost 100% of the time. For example, if Chandelure is a problem for your team just give your Thick Fat Snorlax Pursuit. In normal battle conditions (SR is up) Chandelure will lose every single time.

We all know that he's greatly hindered by that fact that he's a normal type and the tier is currently run by Fighting types, but he definitely meets the criteria of being able to wall a significant portion of the metagame with little to no support. Yes some Pokemon can get a free turn out of Snorlax, but not without risking paralysis from Body Slam, losing more health to hazards because of Whirlwind, or risking a coverage move.

Of course, in the scenario I listed above with Chandelure something will most likely be getting a free move. However that's coming off a KO and puts that turn in the realm of a revenge kill, which has never been a legitimate argument for anything.

[FrostFireBolt]

I personally believe Rotom-C has the potential to be moved up to at least B-rank. Recently I've been using the Modest Specs set as part of a dual-electric core with Raikou to beat their counters and it works great. It's has key resistances to water, grass and electric along with an immunity to ground and great natural bulk. This balance of power and bulk lets it come in and fire off those powerful Leaf Storms very frequently - especially with the amount of bulky waters in the tier. For example, it can switch into Cofagrigus on the Trick Room, survive an unboosted Shadow Ball (only an 11% chance to 2HKO) and proceed to OHKO (81% to OHKO to be exact, but those are pretty good odds). It also fares better at Volt Switching than Rotom-H by virtue of its typing and like its counterpart can trick a choice item onto the pesky walls it cannot kill. Overheat does have a better offensive typing than Leaf Storm but if Rotom-H is B-Rank then I believe Rotom-C should be as well as well.