The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Undead Red]

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current RU metagame, but have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble than they're worth the majority of the time.

• Metagross

Shouldn't that say OU? Xatu could fall into C, if not B due to performing a similar job to Espeon, but with U-turn for scouting and Roost for recovery that isn't gimped by weather conditions. Its utility has been made pretty clear lately.

[FaceFaceFace]

Originally Posted by Fat Superpowerdude

hmmmm well i think Mamoswine deserves a spot in the A tier.


while it can't upfront sweep teams it checks and stops so many pokemon. A lot of them are very common pokemon like Dragon-types and the therians.

Mamo can't 'check' them. Mamo can only revenge kill them, which is an entirely different story.

[PenguinX]

Originally Posted by Fat FaceFaceFace

Mamo can't 'check' them. Mamo can only revenge kill them, which is an entirely different story.

If it can revenge-kill them, that makes it a check.

[Silenced Melody]

Originally Posted by Fat FaceFaceFace

...but Hydro Pump being 80% accurate is very iffy. WIthout rain, it's like a SpA Terrakion with an 80% STAB move...or Surf. With Keldeo's lackluster defenses, a miss can be very costly.

Just saying, Stone Edge is an 80% accuracy STAB move on Terrakion, so I don't see your point on the accuracy part. IMO, Keldeo is definitely A due to the prevalence of rain and the fact that rain and STAB effectively doubles Hydro Pump's 120 base power.
The main issue is that every set has its own walls and its own flaws, but that doesn't deter it from wrecking havoc. It fits the definition of A rank perfectly lol.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Mamoswine should be in B because it can't sweep through teams on its own (normally) and mainly focuses on punching heavy holes in the opponent's team. It's been stated many times before that Mamoswine is an anti-metagame Pokemon as it has the ability to revenge kill many dragons + Therians. Life Orb (Or Banded) Earthquake coming off base 130 attack isn't anything to mess with either. It allows dragons and other powerhouses to set up/sweep once their 'counters' have been weakened.
After rocks, Earthquake off a Life Orb Mamoswine (Jolly) does:
166 - 191 (47.16% - 54.26%)
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
to 252 hp 88 Def (Relaxed) Ferrothorn.
(If Mamo was Adamant, it pretty much 2HKOs the on-site set for Ferrothorn after a layer of Spikes and SR)
This pretty much means that if Mamoswine forces the opponent to switch to their defensive mons (In this case Ferrothorn), Earthquake can severely weaken them thereby limiting their defensive capabilities.


The only defensive mons in the OU metagame that can take numerous hit are Bronzong, Skarmory, and Slowbro. Neither of these mons are that common in OU anymore.

[Superpowerdude]

it is also worthy to note that alot of Mamoswine carry Superpower making Ferrothorn an unsafe switch in

[Cinccino]

I believe that Ferro deserves a place in S tier, its combination of bulk, typing, and movepool has zero competition. Ferro is also the #1 metagame-defining threat from the start of BW as it forces Ttar, Blissey, Chomp to run Fire Blast and a whole lot of pokes to run HP Fire, like Espeon, Lati@s, Celebi, Venusaur, and sometimes Alakazam, Rotom-W.

[bubbly]

Nope. If we had a stall based metagame, then maybe, but it just can't stand up in the current metagame.

[Superpowerdude]

yes Cinccino although i didnt get into BW when it just started but maybe Ferrothorn deserved S then it definatly doesn't deserve S now although its walling capabilities are good and it has a lot of great support options it has a weakness to one of the most common types in ou Fighting-type which really matters seeing as Ferrothorn is a defensive pokemon.

Edit: also Kyurem for B rank although it has somewhat bad defensive typing and needs hail to function to its fullest potential Kyurem is quite a scary offensive threat using its greats Ice Stab to do alot of damage to the opponent (Blizzard, Ice Beam). He also has an enourmous stat total for ou (660) Its choiced and SubRoost sets are extremely powerful and can dish out huge amounts of damagae as well. As mentioned above Kyurems main downfall is the amount of support it needs to work but when the support is their Kyurem will be ripping through your opponents team.

[IstheCakeReallyaLie]

Originally Posted by Fat Superpowerdude

hmmmm well i think Mamoswine deserves a spot in the A tier.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

while it can't upfront sweep teams it checks and stops so many pokemon. A lot of them are very common pokemon like Dragon-types and the therians. Dragonite, Salamence, Tornadus-T, Thunderous-T, Landorus-T are all ohko'd with Ice Shard after Stealth Rock damage assuming Mamoswine is the common Adamant Life Orb set. Its Earthqauke is also extremely powerful coming of 130 attack. He has got a great offensive stab combination to back up his great attack stat as well. As the description of the A Rank says the pokemon needs some support and has some flaws which is also what Mamoswine has. The only things holding Mamoswinee back is its weakness to two powerful types in OU Water and Fighting.

I agree. Mamo has two great STABs in Ice and Ground, with Stone Edge for coverage, and then you have Ice Shard for priority.

Metagross for E. Not useful enough. At all. Elemental punches? Fulfilled by anything with fists. Great duel STABs? Ahahahah! That's a good one. Explsion? It's been nerfed. Steel-type to lay Tiptoeing Tectonics? Outclassed by Heatran and much more.

[FaceFaceFace]

Originally Posted by Fat PenguinX

If it can revenge-kill them, that makes it a check.

So what would you call something that can switch into a Pokemon? I must've gotten my jargon wrong since I always thought a check means something that can switch into a particular pokemon (i.e Jirachi can check Tornadus-T etc).

Originally Posted by Fat Silenced Melody

Just saying, Stone Edge is an 80% accuracy STAB move on Terrakion, so I don't see your point on the accuracy part.

SE is Terrakion's coverage move; whereas Hydro Pump is Keldeo's main money maker. The 'high crit rate' on SE also somewhat patches up for it's iffy accuracy. Still not a big fan of SE though.

From my experience, Terrakion can just CC to clean up weakened stuff late game even if they are resisted (CC doing up to 50% on Tornadus); whereas Keldeo cannot do it without risking a miss, unless you're running Surf.

The question is, can Keldeo make do with surf? I may just have to make a team around it to find out myself.

[Silenced Melody]

I personally wouldn't put Mamoswine in A because its role is to check dragons + Therians and break walls. It's basically a physical Hydreigon that has a great offensive STAB priority and if Hydreigon is in B, there's no reason why Mamoswine should be A. It is a big threat in the metagame (Wallbreakers in general, really), but you wouldn't say "I'm gonna weaken Ferrothorn/Skarmory/Bronzong/Slowbro' because I can then sweep with my Mamoswine.

If someone's team has a weakness to Mamoswine, you wouldn't expect Mamoswine to single-handedly 6-0 a team on its own unless your opponent had a team full of 4x ice weak mons. Instead, you'd expect Mamoswine to kill something once you have the chance to send it in due to its sheer power.
E.g.
Your opponent sent in their Heatran and it just killed your Ferrothorn. He also has his own Mamoswine and a Keldeo lurking in the wings.
You send in your Mamoswine, knowing that he can either give up his Heatran or let something else on his team take heavy damage from Earthquake.

@FaceFaceFace:
Surf in rain = 95 x 2 = 190 BP after STAB and Rain.
Hydro Pump = 120 x 2 = 240 BP after STAB and Rain.
You're gonna seriously miss that 50 base power difference.
You need to take into consideration that Hydro Pump's base power can be boosted through rain, meaning that pokemon that resist it will still take hell of a lot of damage. Choice Specs Hydro Pump in Rain solidly 2HKOs Hydration Vaporeon (After SR) and Specially Defensive Rotom-W.
Rain boosted Hydro Pump is, in general, the only move Keldeo needs. 2x resisted Hydro Pump in rain still has 120 base power, just 20 base power off a 2x super effective Hidden Power.

The main issue with Keldeo is its hilarious movepool (Surf, Hidden Power, Hydro Pump, Secret Sword, and Icy Wind) that allows it to get walled by Toxicroak (Kinda), Jellicent, and Amoonguss. Once these walls are gone, Keldeo just tramples over everything.

[Superpowerdude]

The reason why mamodwine should be A and hydriegon should be b is because Mamoswine checks way more important stuff like the therains/dragon types. FaceFaceFace what your thinking of is a counter. A counter is able to switch in and beat the pokemon while a check can merely beat it if it is already on the field

[Shurtugal]

1. Starmie isn't A rank, it's supposed to be an offensive spinner and it's special attack is a low 299 and the only thing that's good about it is it's speed, and losing to both Scarf Gene and LO Torn-T do NOT make it A-worthy in my humble opinion. It was better when it was faster than Torn-I

2. Ferrothorn should be at least A-rank and not B-rank because of its (a) popularity and (b) ability to wall almost everything in OU when placed in rain.

3. Mence needs to go to Rank-B. It's offensive presence is nice and all, but the little monster is forced to run jolly and scarfed just to outpace Gene and almost nothing lets you set up DD because they all fear a Moxie sweep.

4. Blissey / Chansey all deserve at least B ranking since SkarmBliss is quite a core that is still menacing.

5. Tenta should move to Rank-B due to it's fighting rest and rain dish, making it quite bulky and annoying to deal with. Walls a lot of rain threats to an extent.

6. Scizor should be considered for Rank A with it's amazing ability to revenge kill almost everything with hazards.


EDIT: I made edits to #4.


Just my two cents.

[Neliel]

I think that Lucario should move up to A rank
Thanks to his resistances it has a lot of chance to setup a sword dance then sweep with Extremespeed. We all know that a +2 Lucario is hard to stop if u are running an offensive team, because a lot of stuff get koed with the support of stealth rocks only. Other checks called Gengar, Terrakion, Scarftar, can be easily killed with bullet punch. In the other hand with crunch lucario is able to do massive damage to Jellicent, Reuniclus, Slowbro. I think that the only safe switch-in is Gliscor, (which can be killed with ice punch though) and maybe genesect. Speaking of genesect, i found usefull the special set with vacuum wave, just to reach a ko at +2 with the stealth rock

@everyone who talk about surf/hpump keldeo
Choice specs/scarf can easily use both surf and hydro pump, since the other two slots are for Secret sword and Hidden power. As for the calm mind sets, i think that the only one that works is the one with substitute to avoid revengekills(even though its just the my opinion) , so you should use anyway Secret sword/hidden power ghost/Ice to have more coverage.

[Porii Sames]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

But Starmie is not game changing, and it can't really beat Scizor, Tyranitar and Ferrothorn as you say. Ferrothorn easily shrug off Hidden Power Fire in rain, Scizor only fears Hidden Power Fire and rain-boosted Hydro Pumps, and bulkier versions of Tyranitar can sponge unboosted Hydro Pumps in sandstorm. Both Scizor and Tyranitar can also pursuit Starmie.

Reflect Type Starmie beats all of the Pokes you just mentioned, except for Tyranitar with Superpower. RT on Ferro, Scald it until burned. RT on Ttar, Scald until burned. You can also Spin on both of them. RT Scizor and their Pursuit/U-Turn doesn't do much.

Also, without a Psychic-type attack, Starmie needs a rain-boosted Hydro Pump to OHKO Gengar, and Hydro Pump has shaky accuracy. With the right EV spread, Jellicent is not 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Its tipying is not also that amazing; it has crippling weakness to U-Turn and Pursuit. Not to mention that most Starmie sets have some flaws that prevent them from being staples for most teams.

Almost all Pokemon have "crippling weaknesses". Ferrothorn is weak to STAB Close Combat and the ever common Heatran completely destroys it most of the time. Dragonite is weak to Dragon moves flying around everywhere and is 4x weak to a priority move, not to mention being SR weak. With RT, Pursuit isn't a problem in most cases. LO Thunderbolt on Jelly switching in 2HKOs most of them. Now, I know you can't run all these moves on Starmie, but the fact is it is so diverse that you never really know what counters it on your team.

Replies in bold

[LucaroarkZ]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

1. Starmie isn't A rank, it's supposed to be an offensive spinner and it's special attack is a low 299 and the only thing that's good about it is it's speed, and losing to both Scarf Gene and LO Torn-T do NOT make it A-worthy in my humble opinion. It was better when it was faster than Torn-I

2. Ferrothorn should be at least A-rank and not B-rank because of its (a) popularity and (b) ability to wall almost everything in OU when placed in rain.

3. Mence needs to go to Rank-B. It's offensive presence is nice and all, but the little monster is forced to run jolly and scarfed just to outpace Gene and almost nothing lets you set up DD because they all fear a Moxie sweep.

4. Blissey / Chansey all deserve at least B ranking since SkarmBliss is quite a core that is still menacing.

5. Tenta should move to Rank-B due to it's fighting rest and rain dish, making it quite bulky and annoying to deal with. Walls a lot of rain threats to an extent.

6. Scizor should be considered for Rank A with it's amazing ability to revenge kill almost everything with hazards.


EDIT: I made edits to #4.


Just my two cents.

I pretty much completely disagree on Salamence. First, if you have used ScarfMoxieMence as extensively as I have, you would know how deadly it is. Second, it perfectly falls under the A rank definition. It can sweep a significant portion of the metagame (maybe the same amount as Dragonite, if not more due to its higher Speed), but it requires support.

I also disagree with Blissey/Chansey because while they can be effective, they have massive flaws (Blissey a huge vulnerability to all physical attacks, Chansey a lack of Leftovers recovery) while they can also end up being setup bait for a lot of dangerous attackers like Lucario, Terrakion, and SubCM Jirachi.

I disagree with the others for reasons already explained in this thread. Except Tentacruel, who I don't have enough experience with to comment on.

[PK Gaming]

Oh fiddlesticks, I knew I forgot something. I've added Infernape & Gastrodon. As for sub OU Pokemon, i'll definitely be adding them, not to worry (I haven't forgotten about Xatu for example, that thing is really good etc)

Overall, i'm loving the overall enthusiasm and activity this thread is going to be fun. Shout outs to Pocket for making this thread look nicer :D

[ganj4lF]

I'm not sure about this but I would list Venusaur as A-Tier. It requires Sun support (but Tornadus-T is in the same boat, so it shouldn't be a problem), but with sunshine on the field it's extremely deadly. It indeed sweeps a good porton of the metagame after getting a free +2 (which is quite easy tbh), and it can even go through its own counters if you use ad-hoc sets (mixed w/ Earthquake, or just Sleep Powder). It's also bulky and has a overall not bad defensive typing, so it's not even easy to revenge (if that 560+ speed wasn't enough). It's easy to deal with if you carry other weathers starter, but the same is true for Tornadus-T to an extent (and switch-ins don't risk a Sleep move in that case) so I don't think this point is enough to deny it the A-Tier. Also, it's obviously not outclassed by anything in A-Tier and S-Tier, so even that part of the definition of B-Tier does not apply.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Porii Sames

Replies in bold

1. But that implies that everyone uses Reflect Type Starmie, wich isn't true. I never saw anyone using this sort of set, at least. And all of these pokémon can perfectly beat any non-Reflect Type Starmie.
2. Other points that I've cited say all.

Also, I disagree with 2 things proposed; Heatran in S tier, and Salamence in B tier.

Heatran is amazing, but performs poorly against Rain teams and Water-types in general, with exception of the Magma Storm set (don't say me that Heatran can burn/toxic them; Heatran can still only do this, then run to the hills). This should not be ignored as rain teams are common on the metagame.

As for Salamence, it is also deadly. Can sweep a big amount of the metagame, and while its hard to him to setup, once it does this, it is pretty much GG after Skarmory and friends are gone. Its higher speed is a massive advantage over Dragonite.

[Jimbon]

Agreeing with TPO3's comments about Ferrothorn. It's one of the only Pokemon that fits onto Rain teams pretty much 100% of the time, as well as being the premier wall for offensive rain. It's also a very good hazard setter, and is one of the best in the tier. Combine this with great typing, access to Leech Seed, Thunder Wave and Iron Barbs and IMO Ferrothorn is the best hazard setter in the tier. The amount of free opportunities it has to switch in, how reliable and consistent it is as a hazard setter, how easily it fits on a lot of team archetypes are all reasons why I think it should be A tier. It's also worth mentioning how offensive the metagame is and how non existant stall is. Ferrothorn is one of the few defensive utility 'mons that will always have an irreplaceable role, and no other Pokemon in OU does it as well.

[alkinesthetase]

So what would you call something that can switch into a Pokemon? I must've gotten my jargon wrong since I always thought a check means something that can switch into a particular pokemon (i.e Jirachi can check Tornadus-T etc).

that's a counter. people could argue about the definition for decades, but in general, a counter is a "stronger" answer than a check - switches in more easily, equal or easier time threatening the target, etc. refer to the Checks and Counters thread started by Antar in the main smogmeta section for more discussion of this; it's probably a bad idea to clutter up this thread with semantics like that

[Wizarus]

Skarmory for A Tier. It's the best phaser in BW2, the second best spiker with access to Roost and immunity to (Toxic)Spikes, it's useful in and against any weather, and is a great pivot in general. It also walls a significant portion of the metagame; as others have stated, there are pokes even in A-Tier who wont be doing anything unless Skarmory is removed.

[ClubbingSealCub]

Originally Posted by Fat IstheCakeReallyaLie

I agree. Mamo has two great STABs in Ice and Ground, with Stone Edge for coverage, and then you have Ice Shard for priority.

Metagross for E. Not useful enough. At all. Elemental punches? Fulfilled by anything with fists. Great duel STABs? Ahahahah! That's a good one. Explsion? It's been nerfed. Steel-type to lay Tiptoeing Tectonics? Outclassed by Heatran and much more.

To be fair, Metagross does have a current niche.

Can you name another 'Mon (let alone another steel type) that can run any combination of Pursuit, Trick, SR, Elemental punches, Dual Screens and Explosion on the same set?

[Wizarus]

Originally Posted by Fat ClubbingSealCub

To be fair, Metagross does have a current niche.

Can you name another 'Mon (let alone another steel type) that can run any combination of Pursuit, Trick, SR, Elemental punches, Dual Screens and Explosion on the same set?

It's also one of the few pokes who can reliably switch into Tornadus-T in the rain, and force it out.

[TPO3]

Starmie isn't A rank, it's supposed to be an offensive spinner and it's special attack is a low 299 and the only thing that's good about it is it's speed, and losing to both Scarf Gene and LO Torn-T do NOT make it A-worthy in my humble opinion. It was better when it was faster than Torn-I

...you're implying that Starmie is moved down to B-Tier because it loses to two pkmn when it comes to speed? One of which has to be scarfed? That's not really a fair statement IMO. Starmie is base 115, which outspeeds a plethora of pkmn in UU, only loses to Jolteon, Tornadus-T, Alakazam, and Dugtrio. Past these four, you need a choice scarf to outrun Starmie. Starmie's "low" 299 Special Attack easily gets bosted by Life Orb, and the fact that Starmie posesses all the coverage options it could possibly want in Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt.

I think the main thing you're overlooking is that Starmie is probably A-tier under support. It's a spinner. It's not sweeping through big portions of the metagame. It spins on whatever it wants to. The only two spinblockers in the tier (Jellicent and Gengar) can't stop Starmie. Jellicent fears Life Orb-boosted Thunderbolt, if not Thunder on a Rain Team, and Gengar is outsped, and can't take a Hydro Pump. In addition to the spinblockers, it provides significant offensive pressure in general. It's the only pokemon in the tier that can use Rapid Spin while not completely nuking any momentum you've spent trying to built up. Forretress can somewhat do this with Volt Switch, but it doesn't have the same coverage Starmie has, so a wider variety of threats, offensive and defensive alike, can come in as Forry uses Rapid Spin. Starmie keeps pressure down on your opponent's team, as only a few defensive walls (Blissey, Chansey, Ferrothorn) can safely switch into all of your coverage options, and none of them can prevent Starmie from spinning.