np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby

[GatoDelFuego]

Originally Posted by Fat Nachos

The idea that "something without counters = uber" is so long ago and dead that I'm reading your posts in this thread and wondering if you're trolling. If you could also point out the other supposedly broken dragons (there is none) then that would be insightful.

Well, I can guarantee you that I'm not trolling here, I just generally stay out of suspect tests and let other people do the deciding. I'm just voicing my opinion. I still think that something without counters means that it is broken. Someone responded to my post earlier that said that half of OU has no counters--I simply don't see this as a real reason to bring down Kyurem-B; the reason that it's on par or even below things in OU. If something has no solid counters, it shouldn't be here. That's what I think. I believe that Kyurem-B should stay in Ubers, from where we can move on to the next "standard OU threat with no counters".

[Lady Alex]

@pocket It isn't just not full stall. It doesn't really resemble stall at all.

Pocket EDIT: no, but it's a defensive team. Defensive play-style still works.

[Afti]

Can I just say that the notion of an inherent "uber-ness" a lot of people are advocating mystifies me?

OU is the lowest balanced metagame. Ubers is a banlist for OU, around which a metagame has formed.

If something is not broken, it belongs in OU by definition. Kyurem-B is not broken in OU; its power level is far from disproportionate to the rest of the metagame. If anything, it's lackluster in OU.

The goal here is not, and should not be, to reach a "perfect" game. It is to minimize bans to those elements which can be considered to have a disproportionately large impact on the game as a whole. Arceus isn't legal because, if it was, the entire game would revolve around Arceus; you'd see an Arceus on every team, and picking its type would be a massive part of the team-building process.

This is not a thread about Genesect, or Tornadus-T, or Deoxys-D, or whatever you're offended by. This is a thread about Kyurem-B. Given the current metagame, Kyurem-B is not broken. It doesn't do stall any favors, but it's hardly the biggest thorn in that playstyle's side.

Could Kyurem-B be broken in a future metagame? It's a possibility - but that's something we should deal with when we come to it. We are not dealing with a future metagame; we are dealing with the here and now.

[Lady Alex]

Originally Posted by Fat Afti

The goal here is not, and should not be, to reach a "perfect" game. It is to minimize bans to those elements which can be considered to have a disproportionately large impact on the game as a whole. .

We haven't had any of the council members give us an exact definition on what the overall purpose of these suspect tests are. You can't arbitrarily decide that the goal isn't to create a (I'm going to avoid using the word perfect) healthy metagame.

[Huntofthelion]

Kyurem-b has been so far from broken that I have seen more teams just not using it then I think I have in any other suspect test I've participated in. It doesn't even centralize thanks to hype, it just feels like the exact same metagame where one of their dragons looks a little different. I'm using a standard OU team and doing just as well with it as I was in standard, so so far I don't think KB should be banned at all. It's too slow to get the most out of it's attacking stats and it's typing is really bad for the current metagame.

That said it's not a bad Pokemon by any stretch, it's just not broken. It is really hard to switch into without losing a ton of health so it has added another offensive threat to the game. But I think it might be better used as a more defensive member of the team thanks to it's bulk and water resist, along with access to roost and no real need to invest in it's attack stat to avoid being setup bait. It also has dragon tail to phaze, and should have a pretty easy time scaring things out that are slower than it in order to get up a substitute. I haven't gotten to test this yet, but I think since the all out offense versions aren't doing so hot maybe trying out a more defensive one, after all it also did pick up 10 base defense points over it's regular form that seems to have been lost in the hype over the attack boost.

So yeah, I'll test that out later and post what I think about it, but it sounds cool on paper since I remember playing against that set on regular Kyurem and although the metagame is much more offensive now that doesn't mean individually defensive pokemon can't work, I just think a team full of them is setting yourself up to lose.

[Stone RG]

Well id like to say sorry for completely relying on theorymoning when i posted, since i guess playing in a meta where everybody is trying to test out kyurem b (Suspect Test) and one where everybody simply doesnt give a fuck about it (PO) is completely different.

Like Huntofthelion i used my standard ou team, and had good responses, rather then using one based around kyurem b, the CB set hits like a 2 thousand pound truck i agree, but its 95 Spd now seems much more important (and garbage) than when theorymoning, most of the times it has to come in after a poke has died, in spite of great bulk due to its HORRIBLE typing, plus, if using roost its largely outclassed by regular kyurem, who has pressure and a higher SpA to work with.

Honestly, i see it even in BL, every single other dragon putclasses it in everything that isnt ''come in outrage and give your opponent a kill'', you will be killing something as well but a poke that has the stats of a sweeper and kills only one poke per game isnt the most broken thing in the world.

[Shurtugal]

I don't see how Kyreum-B is going to be any good in an offensive-based metagame packed with fighting types / bullet punch / mach punch / faster dragons / better walbreakers. I don't mind this thing staying in OU since it pratically doesn't do much at all. I don't even see it on PO, which is the reason why we are even letting it in OU in the first place. It' virtually doesn't exist after you pass 1300 on the PO ladder anyway. My point: letting it in OU will make no difference.

[GaryTheGengar]

One thing that I've only seen a very limited number of people state is how bulky this fucker is. I mean 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 324-384 (82.86 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Even scarf terrakion close combat has a (very very very small) chance not to ko. If you can get your kyurem in after a kill, or on a double switch, it can use its massive attack to grab a kill. Very little can ko it from 100%, so it can usually grab another.

Funny thing is that after playing around 75 matches, tornadus-t has shown itself as more problematic in my eyes. It only has a handful of pokemon that can check it, let alone counter it. These pokes are usually pretty niche (Rotom-H, Zapdos), and aren't too useful outside of checking tornadus. Most of its checks can easily be played around, with dugtrio or ferrothorn's spikes for jirachi, simply setting up stealth rock for the two electrics, or common members of tornadus' team. Not to mention shitty confuse hax, which automatically gives all those checks a chance to lose.

Tornadus outspeeds nearly every member of a common offensive team without a scarf, can't really be touched by defensive teams, and has a very limited amount of checks, all of which can be beaten pretty easily by common teammates.

[NoUserName]

Originally Posted by Fat Chimpakt

Kyurem-B is just another pokemon that makes stall unviable in this meta. Genesect does have trouble with its most used sets, but it does have both Iron Head and Flash Cannon in its movepool, so it will be able to take it on.

Is really worth of giving Gene one of these two moves just only for one mon?

I imagine people carrying Iron Head only for the flinching rate, but...

[superbadd]

Gene runs Iron head on the CB set, so I guess you could use thatto combat kyurem-b.

[Jimbon]

Originally Posted by Fat NoUserName

Is really worth of giving Gene one of these two moves just only for one mon?

I imagine people carrying Iron Head only for the flinching rate, but...

It's not just for Kyurem, I've been using Iron Head on my Scarf Genesect just because people love bringing in their Terrakions on Genesect. I also run a little attack investment on Genesect anyway to buff the power of Iron Head, as it actually has it's uses granting Genesect it's dual stab alongside Bug Buzz + U-Turn. It's still a niche move to use on Genesect, but it definitely has its uses (especially since lead sash Terrakion is so common), just like any other potential coverage move on Genesect such as Giga Drain or Hidden Power [Ground]. Flash Cannon is just like Iron Head except you don't need to compromise your distribution of Special Attack / Attack investment, plus I like being able to hit incoming Blissey and other Special walls harder than U-Turn does.

[LucaroarkZ]

Just from a few battles, I can easily say that Kyurem-B is not broken. I have a team centered around Choice Band Kyurem-B that is doing more work without it than it is with it (Timid Specs Gothitelle to trap Adamant Brelooms, and Jolly Mamoswine/Scarfmence to beat the other Brelooms). In fact, Kyurem-B has proven to be more of a hindrance if anything. Of course, there are situations where it is helpful (Doesn't care as much about Scarf Genesect as other Dragons do unless Gene runs moves like Flash Cannon or Iron Head). It also has that impressive bulk and not giving a shit about Mamoswine helping it out. Hell, my Jolly Breloom's Mach Punch did around 66% to an opposing Kyurem-B.

What seems to bring Kyurem-B down for me is its low Speed and weaknesses to common types. It's slower than every OU Dragon-type except Dragonite, so you can revenge kill it with Salamence/Garchomp/Haxorus/Hydreigon as long as Kyu-B isn't Scarfed (most of the ones I run into are not, and basically all Kyurem-B on the ladder are Adamant). Not to mention that it gets pretty much no noteworthy Physical attacks except Outrage, Dragon Claw, and Fusion Bolt (please, Freeze Shock is a joke), so it's also predictable to the max (and walled to death by Ferrothorn!) I can see it being a solid OU Pokemon since it doesn't really care about Mamoswine (unlike other Dragons), but due to all of its flaws in the OU metagame, I think it should definitely be unbanned.

[PK Gaming]

Yeah back from laddering against a bunch of (imo) high-top tier players but before I talk about that, I feel like defining a new term for you guys:

G-weak (Genesect weak)

If your team's G-weak level is too high it's bad, unfortunately. (There's no such thing as a having a G-weak level of 0 btw!!). If you've taken science courses, the closest irl comparison I can make is any given substance acidity (or PH) level. The point i'm trying to make is, if you're struggling against Genesect, make sure the majority of your Pokemon have something to deal with Genesect! I have 2 dedicated switches in, a priority user that rips off at least 50% of its HP, no matter what, protect users, a Genesect of my own and hazards. Even then Genesect is still a pain in the ass I find heh.

Anyway, all of the "good" players I played on ladder didn't even bother using Kyurem-B (typical), but they're all using Genesect, and they're using it extremely well. An annoying team i've noticed is:

Defensive Toed / Tentacruel / Scarf Genesect / Ferrothorn / Tornadus-T / Dugtrio. This team shits on the current metagame, and beats pretty much every team style on the ladder. Between Tentacruel's ability to deny hazards and live forever (fuck Tentacruel), Ferrothorn (hazards), Tornadus-T killing everything in sight and Scarf Genesect revenge killing, attacking, cleaning... it's just a hard team to face in the hands of a good player. So kudos (and fuck you) to whoever created this team :)

[Dice]

My friends made it. 9__9

The team is a bitch, though it is Tornadus-T weak. I saw Valentine using Mamoswine in tour, so idk.

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV PK Gaming

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3472260

[alexwolf]

PK if what you say is true, then you might reconsider the ranking of Ferro in the viability ranking thread ;)

EDIT: Hence the might...

[PK Gaming]

Ferrothorn being good on one team = / = Ferrothorn being good on all teams. It still gets bodied by a good deal of BW OU, that "team" just covers all of its weaknesses nicely.

[alkinesthetase]

i can't believe i lost the log where pk came up with G-weak T_T i was in itc at the time, it was such a good convo too. first ever recorded usage is in my sig

other example usage of this new term:

Celebi would be so much better right now, except it's so G-weak
Deoxys-D only appears to be G-weak, but can reduce its G-weakness even further by carrying a Tanga Berry
Latios is so good, but damn is it G-weak!

anyway i was lurking in other sections of smogon when i saw the #pokemon tournaments where the players had to use pre-submitted teams - i was browsing the list of teams for fun and the one lavos submitted looks very similar to the formula you described (also refer to bri's post). unlikely that he's the originator though, that team looks like a perfect fit for standard OU and was probably made up by a bunch of people simultaneously and independently a long time ago

interesting how teambuilding seems to be affected relatively little by cube based on what i've seen so far

EDIT: ......... how did i forget lavos's team had the jirachi on it, facepalm. i am just NOT paying attention today

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

Curious to see what you guys think of this set:

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 180 Atk / 252 SAtk / 76 Spd
Naughty Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Draco Meteor
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam / Focus Blast

Where Kyurem-B failed in smashing things with Outrage, it has had success in hitting hard through LO. Essentially I wanted to avoid the revenge-killing problem kyurem-b had. To put in perspective the offensive power of this set: it reaches 463 attack and 339 special attack! That is a stronger Dragon Claw than Haxorus and a stronger Draco Meteor than Latias. Of course both of those insane attacks are powered up by Life Orb.

Good partners are those that get switch initiate with Volt-Turn, U-turn, and Baton Pass to bring it in safely. Xatu is particularly good since it can force out the bulky Steels Kyurem might have trouble with while preventing them from setting up hazards at the same time. I am pretty undecided between Ice Beam and Focus Blast. Ice Beam provides good coverage with Fusion Bolt and secondary STAB but Focus Blast allows you to hit Ferrothorn much harder.

handy-dandy calcs

---

180+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 290-343 (41.19 - 48.72%) -- 75.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
180+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 174-205 (45.19 - 53.24%) -- 93.36% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252- SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Hippowdon: 445-525 (105.95 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
180+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 183-216 (53.35 - 62.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(183, 185, 187, 190, 191, 194, 196, 198, 200, 203, 204, 207, 209, 211, 213, 216)

252- SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 133-156 (37.78 - 44.31%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252- SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 221-263 (62.78 - 74.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

[Ithilanor]

Reposting this because it was at the bottom of the previous page:

Originally Posted by Fat bubbly

Back to Kyu-B discussion; the only set I've found impressive so far is the mixed Substitute set, similar to regular Kyu which works best using SubRoost. It really has its niche in setting up on Waters / Grasses / Electrics and screws over the omnipresent revenge killers.

What EV spread are you using? I'm sure you don't need full investment in Atk, and it's nice to have some amount of SpA EVs so Ice Beam actually hits decently hard, but I don't know what important KOs you want and how many Atk EVs can be spared.

[AfroThunderRule]

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

Defensive Toed / Tentacruel / Scarf Genesect / Ferrothorn / Tornadus-T / Dugtrio. This team shits on the current metagame, and beats pretty much every team style on the ladder. Between Tentacruel's ability to deny hazards and live forever (fuck Tentacruel), Ferrothorn (hazards), Tornadus-T killing everything in sight and Scarf Genesect revenge killing, attacking, cleaning... it's just a hard team to face in the hands of a good player. So kudos (and fuck you) to whoever created this team :)

I don't know, that team seems so weak to Expert Belt Thundurus-T. The only way to kill it is to revenge kill it with Genesect or switch in to Duggy on the electric move and hope Stone Edge hits.

Though being weak to one (somewhat not common) Pokemon doesn't stop the team from being good.

[ssbbm]

after testing

kyurem b is hardly *bad*, it's kinda hard for it to be bad with 170 base attack. it basically guarantees 1 kill, but the problem is that it *must* use outrage to differentiate it from other pokemon (i'm talking about the cb set, which is the only set besides sub / dtail lol i've tried so idk about the others), so it often is used on death fodder and then easily revenged; it's really good at weakening steels though!

i don't even think about it when preparing for my team, there are much biggger threats - tornadus t and obviously genesect come to mind

[bubbly]

I've played against that team (Poli / Dug / Torn / Tenta / Ferro / Gene) a LOT in the upper sections of PO and it's insanely annoying to win against. That said it does pretty much auto lose to Zapdos, so I've taken to using Zapdos + Roserade / Abomasnow in my defensive cores.

[Tobes]

I'm quite annoyed at myself, because in spite of the fact that Kyurem-B has both been performing for and against me at what I would qualify as a non-Uber level, I can't shake this slight feeling that it should be Uber. I'm really at a loss as to why this is; I'm sure most of you are aware I tend to not like bans in general. I suppose the two root sources of this uneasy feeling I have are a) Kyurem-B's power and b) Kyurem-B's bulk. These two in tandem, while not enough to make it an unstoppable, broken juggernaut, are enough to make it so that Kyurem-B is only going to have trouble firing off at least one attack against a team packed with Fighting- and Dragon-types. Sure, it's hazards weak, but it has relatively few weaknesses and can shrug off a lot of neutral hits without too much difficulty. It has very high damage output, and against a lot of teams it will have opportunities to dish out quite a bit of that damage. But this doesn't make a Pokemon broken. Truthfully, I think Kyurem-B roughly amounts to an improved CB Haxorus. Good and fairly impressive, but not staggering or broken. I don't think this feeling I have can be justified.

Now, just to be clear, I think that, objectively (if it's even possible to be objective about this sort of thing), Kyurem-B should be OU. I wouldn't let this feeling I have interfere with a vote. It's just... unusual I suppose.

[bubbly]

I guess that feeling you're having, Tobes, comes from the subconscious knowledge that it's far too powerful for a balanced OU metagame?

[Tobes]

But the thing is, I don't really have an issue with OU. I know a lot of people complain about it, but really I think it's perfectly enjoyable. The metagame isn't fixated on one particular strategy or Pokemon (although I suppose there is starting to be a case for Genesect, but I'm not concerned about that until we see something that is clearly unhealthy like 40 - 60% usage). I think that team match-ups complaints are exaggerated and avoidable by refined teambuilding. That's "balanced" enough for me. Plus I have a naturally high threshold for considering something broken.

Furthermore, power level does not have an inherent relationship with "balance". Look at Ubers. It is a pretty balanced metagame (though Arceus is a bit of a bitch), yet it has the highest power level of all metagames. Kyurem-B being a non-broken entity in OU does not necessarily mean that OU is unbalanced; while it is still a possibility, it can also just mean that the power level of the metagame has shifted a bit, as it generally does with the release of each set of games.