(Gen 3) RoA CCaT Cycle 1: ADV OU - Mission Aborted

[shrapn3l]

okay well i'm not sure forretress is worth using because it is a terrible spinner without pursuit support. i suggest cloyster since surf does a good chunk to gengar and it can beat forretress, claydol, and skarmory, and it's immune to magnet pull. spikes are really important (they are required for msdos to be close to decent) and cloyster gives you a reliable spiker and self sufficient spinner that is pretty good against enemy stall teams and has a decently powerful explosion even without any investment to help take out walls. it also works well with metagross or jirachi (i was going to recommend jirachi before i saw how dire this forretress situation was...)

as for gengar, i think the specific set really depends on the rest of the team, but it's pretty much guaranteed that it deserves a spot.

Cloyster (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 80 SAtk / 176 SDef
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Explosion
- Spikes
- Surf
- Rapid Spin

[Umby]

Perhaps para support would be cool? Metal Sound is a lot scarier when you've been immobilized and we could drop some Speed for HP on Zapdos.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 200 HP / 56 Spd / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Metal Sound
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 240 HP / 56 Def / 36 Spd / 176 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Thunder Wave
- Psychic
- Reflect
- Wish

Jirachi aids, not only with para support, but Reflect and Wish as well. With the exception of Tyranitar and Houndoom, most of Jirachi's counters provide easy switch ins for Zapdos so, on paper, it keeps it relatively safe and healthy.

[Triangles]

Right - there have been enough nominations for the voting process to begin. This vote will last 24 hours. This time round, I have decided that voting for your own nomination is prohibited.The nominations are as follows, with the full movesets listed in Post #2, under the subheading: First Round Teammate Nominations.

Specially Defensive Forretress
Metagross (possibly Agiligross, possibly CB)
RestTalk Swampert
Dedicated Spinblocker Gengar
Bait-Exploding Gengar
Standard Cloyster
Para-Support Jirachi

My vote goes with Standard Cloyster. Being the only OU Spiker to escape magnetic clutches (recently Magneton seems to be gaining popularity), it is optimal for supporting Zapdos, in that MS Zapdos needs Spikes to work remotely well.

[sandshrewz]

Cloyster
It has pretty good synergy with Zapdos as well. It attracts Grass-types for Zapdos and also takes Ice Beams although it has pretty bad Special Defense :d Cloyster also can at least damage spinblockers with Surf (and Surf Claydol as well >.>)

[shrapn3l]

cloyster : )

[Triangles]

Votes are all in - we have our first teammate for MS Zapdos, which is standard Cloyster. From now on, the other team members will be decided by, as opposed to by a formal vote, by a general consensus. You are allowed to nominate what you have previously nominated, as well as what someone else has previously nominated as well. Remember when nominating to look to patch up the weaknesses of the pair and fill defensive holes.

My suggestion: Looking at Zapdos and Cloyster together, I realised that the two largest problems for the pair were Blissey (especially CM variants) and Regice. Also, Zapdos and Cloyster share a weakness to Rock and as such were liable to struggle against the likes of DDtar. I thought to myself that what would really suit the team is a bulky Fighting-type, so I decided that RestTalk Hariyama, the game's most solid switch-in to Regice and Blissey would be a good fit, especially as it also does an excellent job against purely special or mixed Pursuit TTar. It can also phaze, which is an excellent attribute on a hazard-based team. I can't exactly remember what the given EV spread does, so the spread is open to change here. EDIT: I've slightly improved the spread statistically and saved some EVs but it could still be more specialised.


Hariyama (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Thick Fat / Guts
EVs: 80 HP / 192 Def / 236 SDef
Adamant Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Cross Chop
- Whirlwind

[meteor64]

Honestly I can't think of anything that fits better than that Hariyama atm. You could possibly change the EVs on that set but I don't know what they're specifically for, so...

[Triangles]

After some helpful advice from sandz on IRC, I have decided to allow the nomination of cores (i.e. combinations of sets), in this nomination round and future rounds as well. The maximum amount of pokes which can be nominated in a core is 3. The reason for this decision is the currently low activity and slow process, and the idea of this change is to rejuvenate the CCaT and speed the process up.

However, I personally am still sticking to nominating the single Hariyama set.

[shrapn3l]

curselax can do all of those things that you need hariyama to do and then some (although it can't whirlwind to keep the spikes damage theme going but that's more for fun than it is actually useful/important). not saying yama can't fit on the team or it's not worth a spot, because it is a pretty cool dude and not that bad actually, but curselax fits just as well and counters more things which may be better in the long run.

[Umby]

Still casting my support for Jirachi. What specifically are we doing about a spinblocker?

[Triangles]

Originally Posted by Fat Umby

Still casting my support for Jirachi. What specifically are we doing about a spinblocker?

The likelihood is that Gengar will be auto-inserted onto the team as a spinblocker (Dusclops doesn't quite fit the theme of Bulky Offense), with either DracoMalfoy's (the dedicated spinblocker) or Crystal_'s (the bait-exploder) suggested sets. The method of deciding what goes into the team is simply through general consensus, and unless there's any objections to a Gengar of some form, it will become a team member. In a team so focused around keeping Spikes up for offensive pressure, a spinblocker which can provide its own offense is key. As to the matter of which Gengar set to use, I personally am leaning towards DracoMalfoy's, because Exploding with Gengar on a team like this, despite being an excellent Blissey remover, and thus giving Zapdos a far easier time, is counterproductive, because without Spikes constantly up, MSdos will really struggle to influence the game. Also, Crystal_'s set is less suited to spinblocking, as most of the time, Cloyster's Ice Beam will 2HKO in sand, and some of the time outside of sand as well. If we were to use Crystal_'s set, one might want to think about Toxic on Cloyster above Explosion to help wear down other Cloyster, and also because with Crystal_'s set, Gengar fills the role of an Exploder. However, this is just personal opinion - a general consensus will determie which Gengar set makes its way into the team.

What will happen now in the CCaT is:
-temporary discussion of which Gengar set to use (unless someone provides a really good cause of using no Gengar)
-resuming current nomination stage
-continuing nominating members and deciding the team
-ironing out flaws and testing, etc

[meteor64]

Originally Posted by Fat shrapn3l

curselax can do all of those things that you need hariyama to do and then some (although it can't whirlwind to keep the spikes damage theme going but that's more for fun than it is actually useful/important). not saying yama can't fit on the team or it's not worth a spot, because it is a pretty cool dude and not that bad actually, but curselax fits just as well and counters more things which may be better in the long run.

Hariyama makes what we have much less TTar weak, and gives us something better to fight opposing Curselax with.

[Umby]

You wouldn't have to worry about Curselax in the first place, with MS Zapdos as the focus, but Tyranitar is a legitimate concern. Hariyama's just so specialized in the utility it's being offered here, but it's something that could be spread out over a couple of Pokemon that are a bit more versatile/threatening, like Roar Swampert/Suicune + Metagross (as an example). Having unboosted Cross Chop as a sole attacking move isn't the greatest look either, IMO.

[meteor64]

Originally Posted by Fat Umby

You wouldn't have to worry about Curselax in the first place, with MS Zapdos as the focus, but Tyranitar is a legitimate concern. Hariyama's just so specialized in the utility it's being offered here, but it's something that could be spread out over a couple of Pokemon that are a bit more versatile/threatening, like Roar Swampert/Suicune + Metagross (as an example). Having unboosted Cross Chop as a sole attacking move isn't the greatest look either, IMO.

If Lax comes in on anything other than a Metal Sound he can threaten off Zappy with STAB, and then what?

I'm not saying Hariyama is a better choice because of this cause as you said, we can cover these things with other pokes but as it is there isn't currently a way to deal with that, so Hariyama is still at least worth considering.

Also, I've been running monoattacking Hari in stall, its actually been doing pretty fine. Admittedly I've been running Knock Off over WW, but STAB Cross Chop is nothing to sneeze at, especially when Guts boosted from Resttalk. The increased possiblity of a crit always makes you much more threatening, and lacklustre PP is kinda negated since you'll spend a lot of time asleep. With WW though you're a free switch for Gengar, although you could just blow him away into some thing that takes spikes damage. Probably gonna need Pursuit support if we did use it.

[Umby]

Snorlax is coming in on offensive Zapdos + Spikes. Even with max SAtk, Timid Zapdos and with two layers down, that's somewhere around a third of Snorlax's health shaved off (after factoring in Leftovers). If it tries to do it a second time, that's a free Metal Sound from when it's forced to Rest the next turn, and a sleeping Lax is, obviously, at an even greater disadvantage in the same situation.

Keep in mind, one good point of MS Zapdos is to make it harder for its counters (mostly just Snorlax and Celebi) to fend of its attacks. It wouldn't actually be odd to see Zapdos wrecking Lax over the course of the game without a problem.

[Triangles]

After discussing the choice of Gengar set on IRC, I have come to the conclusion that it will be DracoMalfoy's dedicated spinblocker.

<%Triangles> Due to the lack of posting in the CCaT thread, I will just ask here and now, which Gengar suits the team better - a dedicated spinblocker, as suggested by DracoMalfoy, or a bait-exploder, as suggested by Crystal_?

<%Patamon> dedicated

<@Earthworm|Away> i say Option 1

<Danilo> triangles
<Danilo> the first one

You are now free to talk about additional teammates (although it's not like you haven't already been doing so).

[Danilo]

So it looks like we have a fine start. Our goal is to sweep with Zapdos and we seem to have a very specially offensive team. Thus, I think that Celebi would make for a great fourth member.
Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Baton Pass
- Recover
- Calm Mind
- Psychic

This Celebi gives us pretty good synergy with the rest of the team. Passing Calm Minds to Zapdos is pretty deadly, especially with Spikes and Metal Sound. Gengar also appreciates the Calm Mind boosts as it can potentially sweep lategame.

Next, I nominate Dugtrio.
Dugtrio (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Arena Trap
EVs: 244 Atk / 44 SDef / 220 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Aerial Ace
- Hidden Power [Bug]

Dugtrio gives this team an answer to a lot of things we currently have problems with, namely Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Heracross. This EV spread lets you always 2HKO defensive Calm Mind Blissey, which can't be done with 208 Atk EVs.

Finally, I believe that CursePert should finish off the team
Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 40 SAtk / 4 Spd
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Curse
- Rest

Cursepert gives us a Snorlax, Aerodactly, and Tyranitar switch in. Swampert has fine synergy with the rest of the team, appreciates Calm Mind boosts from Celebi, and gives us a really solid defensive backbone that has the potential to sweep late-game.

If my suggestions are implemented, then we can probably fiddle with the Gengar set. With Swampert AND Dugtrio, there's really no need for such a defensive Gengar.

[Triangles]

Sir's nomination is very solid - the only issues that I can see for the team (i.e. the team will straight-out lose to if the opponent plays well) if Sir's core was used to complete it:
Mixed Drill Peck Zapdos + Offensive Pressure + Sharp Prediction on the opponent's part - unless Celebi is at 100% in sand, or about 90% out of sand, nothing can switch into a well-played MixDos.
Toxic Skarmory + Rapid Spinner which can hit Gengar (Claydol, Starmie) + Special Wall - Skarm hits Cloy/Zappy on the switch with Toxic, and from there the opposing team will control Spikes and win through forcing switches defensively.
Curselax + Swampert lure (HP or Exploding Gross, HPTar) - when a team's best answer to Curselax is the easily lurable Swampert, and Swampert is lured successfully, Curselax could give this team a very hard time.
I'll expand on these sentiments later when I have more time.

[Danilo]

Toxic Skarmory is certainly an issue. I'm not sure how that could be remedied. I don't think we're that weak to Curselax. Swampert can Curse with it, Cloyster can boom on it, and Dugtrio can clean up the mess that Snorlax made. I don't think being weak to Mixed Zapdos is a big deal because no one ever uses it(except for you).

[Triangles]

Originally Posted by Fat Sir

Toxic Skarmory is certainly an issue. I'm not sure how that could be remedied. I don't think we're that weak to Curselax. Swampert can Curse with it, Cloyster can boom on it, and Dugtrio can clean up the mess that Snorlax made.

If Sir's core was chosen, the only way to stop Toxic Skarm having funtimes would be to either have Celebi changed to a beller, which totally slows down the team's offensive pressure and lowers the potency of the team's special sweepers, or to have Cloyster use Rest above Explosion to keep Toxic Skarm well in check. However, Rest may also have a tendency to slow the team's offensive momentum down, and a top-standard opposition will throw his efforts into forcing Cloyster to Rest so that Toxic Skarm can Spike while everybody's favourite mollusc has a kip, and when the Cloyster switch-in becomes predictable, double switch into something that offensively threatens Cloyster. Also, Booming Cloyster provides that extra level of insurance against Curselax.

EDIT: I just realised how painfully poorly this team will fare against Regice - I mean if your best answer to it is a non-SpDef invested Cursepert, then that's poor.

[Umby]

I mentioned Metagross the other day (Pocket's already talked about it earlier in the thread). It defends against Regice and Aerodactyl and baits out Skarmory, Forry, and Swampert for an easy Cloyster switch-in. While Cloyster can hit Gengar, I made note of Pursuit on Metagross as a way to deal with spinblocking, though this generally helps Metagross Explode without worry as well. Alternatively, if Zapdos is using HP Ice, Metagross could run HP Grass to deal with Swampert immediately. I generally think any set with MM/Quake/Explosion could work, so long as its purpose is to bait out Pokemon for Zapdos/Cloyster. Agility, Pursuit, and HP Grass are all viable fourth moves. It gets LS/Reflect, if that's of any appeal.

[Triangles]

As well as what Umby previously mentioned, I'd like to throw defensively EVd RestTalk Metagross into the mix here - it can function as a specialised check to stuff like Regice, opposing non-Fire Punch Gengar (this variant is especially good for Gengar as it can take sleep and doesn't care as much about burn), non-Flamethrower Blissey, Shadow Ball Curselax, some Tyranitar (DDTars in general are baited into EQing an 80%ish Metagross at +1 but with a defensive spread, Metagross can easily take that and retaliate with Meteor Mash). Umby's post pretty much covers all the other main pros of using Metagross in general.

[Triangles]

It's been 15 days since the last post (which was me) and I just wanted to alert everyone that the CCaT exists and I haven't abandoned you yet.

Sorry for double posting.

[Danilo]

I don't see why we can't go for a more specially defensive swampert to fix our regice problem.

[Triangles]

There's no activity so I don't think there's any point of keeping this thread open.