np: BW Ubers Suspect Testing Round 1 - Mama Said Knock You Out UPDATE POST #95

***bojangles***** · Oct 21st, 2012, 12:24:19 PM

Welcome one and all to Smogon's very first ever round of Ubers Suspect Testing. Jibaku, Great Sage, and I have agreed that we should start with OHKO Clause, because we believe it will impact the metagame the least. Will we be proven wrong? Who knows. That's for all of us to find out.

The way this will work is as follows. After 2 weeks of laddering, the Ubers Council will convene to decide whether the metagame is stable enough to move to a large-scale measure. The only reason this would not be done is if the metagame is so uncompetitive that it does not function at all. At this time, they can also vote to amend the clauses in certain ways as a further option in the vote. After this meeting, we will look at the ladder and use a set of requirements to determine who can vote. We're taking a page from OU's book and setting the requirements at a Glicko2 rating of 2000 and a Glicko2 deviation of 55 or lower on the Ubers ladder. Note that this is the UBERS ladder, not the Ubers Suspect ladder. There will be no Ubers Suspect ladder, since we want to keep all the activity concentrated. Also be aware that, if we are not satisfied with the amount of people who qualify with the above ratings, we may lower it; do NOT rely on this, however.

Here's a timeline:

Sunday, October 21: Ubers Ladder has been reset and OHKO Clause has been removed
Sunday, November 4, 11:59 PM: Round finishes. A screenshot will be taken of the ladder and a thread will be posted to identify yourselves.
Tuesday, November 6, 11:59PM: Special applications are due and we will start voting.
Sometime after the round ends but before we begin voting, we will have a council meeting on #uberscouncil on SynIRC. The date and time will be announced further down the road when the council members' schedules allow.

Good luck, brave soldiers.

Haruno · Oct 21st, 2012, 1:39:57 PM

Interesting. I'm looking forward to how this'll work out.

exotic · Oct 21st, 2012, 1:57:59 PM

The only thing I can think of is Hone Claws Excadrill. How much is his accuracy of fissure after one hone claw and wide lens? And 2?

OHKO moves are kinda luck based, but 30% is really low.

Scarfwynaut · Oct 21st, 2012, 2:03:49 PM

Sheer cold is not effected by accuracy or evasion modifiers (meaning its always the same accuracy, it doesn't even go down).

**Theorymon** · Oct 21st, 2012, 2:04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat exotic

The only thing I can think of is Hone Claws Excadrill. How much is his accuracy of fissure after one hone claw and wide lens? And 2?

OHKO moves are kinda luck based, but 30% is really low.

OHKO moves are not effected by normal accuracy modifiers. The only accuracy changes that effect OHKO moves are Mind Reader, Lock On, and No Guard.

exotic · Oct 21st, 2012, 2:10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Theorymon

OHKO moves are not effected by normal accuracy modifiers. The only accuracy changes that effect OHKO moves are Mind Reader, Lock On, and No Guard.

Ah, I didn't know that. I guess OHKO clause won't have any impact on the metagame. It seems that it is only a high risk, high reward move.

Melee Mewtwo · Oct 21st, 2012, 2:21:29 PM

I'm going to try to use mostly stall teams for this suspect. They are the only ones that could actually be affected by OHKO moves so I feel they are the best ones to tell whether OHKO is somehow overwhelming or just a trolly gimmick.

ThisMysteriousGuy · Oct 21st, 2012, 2:28:39 PM

I'll be using my Balance team so that I can see whether or not the removal of the OHKO clause actually does anything to my bulkier Pokemon while still being able to ladder efficiently thanks to my cleaners not caring about OHKO moves in the slightest. 10-1 now (mostly cause of hax and teams that aren't too too good), I have a LONG way to go in order to make reqs o_o`

Lavos Spawn · Oct 21st, 2012, 2:54:57 PM

using hyper offense for sure

nice song

chaos 9 · Oct 21st, 2012, 8:12:45 PM

Glad I built 3 solid teams, offense, balance and stall! I plan on seeing how each of them fares.

Gonna be a party. Also, just to clarify, if we achieve recs at some point during the voting period and we screen shot it, is that sufficient? Or do we need to hold recs until the end of the phase?

Porii Sames · Oct 21st, 2012, 9:59:21 PM

So I haven't gotten around to playing it yet, but what strats exactly would work better with this? Articuno? Sub/Roost/Mind Reader/Sheer Cold?

Princess Bri · Oct 21st, 2012, 10:06:43 PM

Sheer Cold RestTalk Ogre seems interesting.

Porii Sames · Oct 21st, 2012, 10:26:32 PM

Hydrarest Lapras with Sheer Cold & Horn Drill? Just throwing things out there.

Ogre also seems cool. I just don't really see why you'd use this other than as gimmicks.

GaryTheGengar · Oct 22nd, 2012, 8:05:36 PM

http://pastebin.com/1HPWJdYR
this should sum up why removing ohko clause isnt a good idea

EDIT:
okay my comp is glitching up like mad, and links to a showdown battle instead of pastebin. Its also showing me joining + leaving like a billion times >_>. oh well, the point still stands.

Friar · Oct 22nd, 2012, 10:23:34 PM

I think Stall teams have the most to gain in using OHKO moves. Stall teams usually find a lot of passive free turns where they typically set up hazards or phaze. If you have a free turn and the opponent is about to switch, if I was playing stall I'd be willing to give a OHKO move a shot.

Offensive teams I think have less to gain. Set up moves or powerful attacking has more merit on free turns than going for OHKO moves. If it fails, you're on the backfoot, and that's a huge problem for frailer offensive teams. Stall teams have the defensive backbone necessary to take a OHKO risk. It would also be an interesting stall breaking option for stall teams, as stall vs stall is typically reliant on the teambuilding, and this new dimension to the game would make matchups between defensive teams even more intricate.

nyttyn · Oct 22nd, 2012, 10:38:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat GaryTheGengar

http://pastebin.com/1HPWJdYR
this should sum up why removing ohko clause isnt a good idea

EDIT:
okay my comp is glitching up like mad, and links to a showdown battle instead of pastebin. Its also showing me joining + leaving like a billion times >_>. oh well, the point still stands.

Oh yeah I remember that battle, good times.

But yes, seconded. For the love of goodness don't remove OHKO clause. It adds nothing to the metagame and makes BS like this possible.

Lavos Spawn · Oct 22nd, 2012, 11:39:45 PM

there's a reason we have banned all OHKO moves from all tiers, it's because they're completely uncompetitive and take away skill from battles, replacing it with sheer luck...really I only see these OHKO moves as a last-ditch effort for the loser of a battle to overtake the winner as a result of a 30% chance, what kind of bs is that?

locoghoul · Oct 22nd, 2012, 11:48:14 PM

^ easy kid. There is a reason for testing. If it proves to be unhealthy then it will remained banned BUT with some solid -sorta- evidence this time. So far my thoughts have been confirmed: it doesn't have a -negative- impact on the metagame. Most of the teams I've played against don't have OHKO users/moves. IMO, it will remain as a gimmick on lower ranks in the ladder if unbanned. Let's see what happens in 10 days

Mr.lol · Oct 23rd, 2012, 7:21:24 AM

OK so I ended up testing HO and balanced and I ended up almost never encountering a single OHKO move x_x. There was this one time I saw a Kyogre using Sheer Cold but saying its efforts were futile is an understatement (lol), there is no place for these moves to be used in such a fast-paced environment. If you thought sleeping Ogre were setup bait for Dragon Dance Rayquaza wait until you see what Scald Sheer Clod Rest talk variants are.

I'll go ahead and try OHKO moves on my own team later on (on an alt though :P), but I'm not too hopeful about their potential.

@Lavos Spawn, yeah but they risk losing a winning game if their move DOES miss too lol.

***Antar**** · Oct 23rd, 2012, 7:43:13 AM

Is anyone besides me concerned that a rating cutoff of 2k is a bit high for Ubers? IIRC, it'll mean you're limiting the decision to 2-3 players.

***Great Sage***** · Oct 23rd, 2012, 7:44:55 AM

We're just using what OU's cutoff is as a baseline. The rating requirement will definitely be revised if we find that very few people make the cutoff now.

***Antar**** · Oct 23rd, 2012, 7:55:03 AM

k

For the record, I think removing OHKO clause is an AWFUL idea. But I also believe hax items (Brightpowder, Quick Claw, etc.) should be banned. Pokemon has enough of a luck component WITHOUT adding additional elements.

**The Immortal** · Oct 23rd, 2012, 10:55:46 AM

I just wanted to say that in one of my battles, I had Fire Blast miss 5 times in a row. Now that did not cost me said battle; however, an OHKO move (which has twice the chance of hitting as Fire Blast does missing) hitting me 5 times in a row would definitely cost me a battle. As a result, I feel the OHKO Clause should remain.

**Pocket** · Oct 23rd, 2012, 3:36:59 PM

Congrats on the reqs, The Immortal!

Your reasoning to ban OHKO move is shitty, though. Have somebody actually hit you with an OHKO moves 5x? You need to back your decision with less theorymon and more play experience. Using one outlier game to show how extreme luck played against you doesn't prove anything (other than you had bad luck).

**The Immortal** · Oct 23rd, 2012, 4:09:40 PM

Thank you!

You are correct, and as far as I saw OHKO moves were rarely used (the few times being Sheer Cold Kyogre), and only successfully hit me once; however, it is still luck as you mentioned. I shouldn't have to lose or win a game because of luck.

Oct 21st, 2012, 12:24:19 PM	#1
*bojangles* IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE, Administrator** Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,885 Location: New York, NY Mentor	np: BW Ubers Suspect Testing Round 1 - Mama Said Knock You Out UPDATE POST #95 Welcome one and all to Smogon's very first ever round of Ubers Suspect Testing. Jibaku, Great Sage, and I have agreed that we should start with OHKO Clause, because we believe it will impact the metagame the least. Will we be proven wrong? Who knows. That's for all of us to find out. The way this will work is as follows. After 2 weeks of laddering, the Ubers Council will convene to decide whether the metagame is stable enough to move to a large-scale measure. The only reason this would not be done is if the metagame is so uncompetitive that it does not function at all. At this time, they can also vote to amend the clauses in certain ways as a further option in the vote. After this meeting, we will look at the ladder and use a set of requirements to determine who can vote. We're taking a page from OU's book and setting the requirements at a Glicko2 rating of 2000 and a Glicko2 deviation of 55 or lower on the Ubers ladder. Note that this is the UBERS ladder, not the Ubers Suspect ladder. There will be no Ubers Suspect ladder, since we want to keep all the activity concentrated. Also be aware that, if we are not satisfied with the amount of people who qualify with the above ratings, we may lower it; do NOT rely on this, however. Here's a timeline: Sunday, October 21: Ubers Ladder has been reset and OHKO Clause has been removed Sunday, November 4, 11:59 PM: Round finishes. A screenshot will be taken of the ladder and a thread will be posted to identify yourselves. Tuesday, November 6, 11:59PM: Special applications are due and we will start voting. Sometime after the round ends but before we begin voting, we will have a council meeting on #uberscouncil on SynIRC. The date and time will be announced further down the road when the council members' schedules allow. Good luck, brave soldiers. __________________ [12:47pm] TV-Rocka: I want to take a naked pic with just the tigres logo on my... [12:48pm] TV-Rocka: and well, no one of my friend want to take the photo

Oct 21st, 2012, 2:03:49 PM	#4
Scarfwynaut Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,090 PA	Sheer cold is not effected by accuracy or evasion modifiers (meaning its always the same accuracy, it doesn't even go down). __________________ I am not Scarf Wynaut on Pokemon Showdown. I am PrincesoBubblegum

Oct 21st, 2012, 8:12:45 PM	#10
chaos 9 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 467	Glad I built 3 solid teams, offense, balance and stall! I plan on seeing how each of them fares. Gonna be a party. Also, just to clarify, if we achieve recs at some point during the voting period and we screen shot it, is that sufficient? Or do we need to hold recs until the end of the phase? __________________ If you would like help on any aspect of team building, would like me to rate a team, or have a non postable team you would like me to take a look at, I am just one pm away.

Oct 21st, 2012, 9:59:21 PM	#11
Porii Sames Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 498 Talkin' about poppin' glocks, servin' rocks, and hittin' switches	So I haven't gotten around to playing it yet, but what strats exactly would work better with this? Articuno? Sub/Roost/Mind Reader/Sheer Cold? __________________ (20:14:18) Soulwind: your rainstall is better than pussy Achievements: 1 on DW (SM) 3x, 3 on DW (PO), Page 1 on Smogon WiFi, 1 on Smogon LC, 1 on PBC DW, page 1 Ubers on top 6 servers, 1 on Beta Ubers, 4 on Showdown Ubers, 47-0 win streak Smogon DW.

Oct 21st, 2012, 10:06:43 PM	#12
Princess Bri COME FORTH Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 1,071	Sheer Cold RestTalk Ogre seems interesting. __________________ Last edited by Princess Bri; Oct 22nd, 2012 at 8:15:54 PM.

Oct 21st, 2012, 1:39:57 PM	#2
Haruno Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 123 Cali	Interesting. I'm looking forward to how this'll work out.

Oct 21st, 2012, 1:57:59 PM	#3
exotic Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 91	The only thing I can think of is Hone Claws Excadrill. How much is his accuracy of fissure after one hone claw and wide lens? And 2? OHKO moves are kinda luck based, but 30% is really low.

Oct 21st, 2012, 2:28:39 PM	#8
ThisMysteriousGuy Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 264 Rock Tunnel	I'll be using my Balance team so that I can see whether or not the removal of the OHKO clause actually does anything to my bulkier Pokemon while still being able to ladder efficiently thanks to my cleaners not caring about OHKO moves in the slightest. 10-1 now (mostly cause of hax and teams that aren't too too good), I have a LONG way to go in order to make reqs o_o`

Oct 21st, 2012, 2:54:57 PM	#9
Lavos Spawn Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 2,181 Mentor	using hyper offense for sure nice song

Oct 21st, 2012, 10:26:32 PM	#13
Porii Sames Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 498 Talkin' about poppin' glocks, servin' rocks, and hittin' switches	Hydrarest Lapras with Sheer Cold & Horn Drill? Just throwing things out there. Ogre also seems cool. I just don't really see why you'd use this other than as gimmicks. __________________ (20:14:18) Soulwind: your rainstall is better than pussy Achievements: 1 on DW (SM) 3x, 3 on DW (PO), Page 1 on Smogon WiFi, 1 on Smogon LC, 1 on PBC DW, page 1 Ubers on top 6 servers, 1 on Beta Ubers, 4 on Showdown Ubers, 47-0 win streak Smogon DW.

Oct 22nd, 2012, 8:05:36 PM	#14
GaryTheGengar Tryna find a way to feel just like this everyday Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 66	http://pastebin.com/1HPWJdYR this should sum up why removing ohko clause isnt a good idea EDIT: okay my comp is glitching up like mad, and links to a showdown battle instead of pastebin. Its also showing me joining + leaving like a billion times >_>. oh well, the point still stands. Last edited by GaryTheGengar; Oct 22nd, 2012 at 8:37:08 PM.

Oct 22nd, 2012, 10:23:34 PM	#15
Friar Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 586 St. Louis, MO	I think Stall teams have the most to gain in using OHKO moves. Stall teams usually find a lot of passive free turns where they typically set up hazards or phaze. If you have a free turn and the opponent is about to switch, if I was playing stall I'd be willing to give a OHKO move a shot. Offensive teams I think have less to gain. Set up moves or powerful attacking has more merit on free turns than going for OHKO moves. If it fails, you're on the backfoot, and that's a huge problem for frailer offensive teams. Stall teams have the defensive backbone necessary to take a OHKO risk. It would also be an interesting stall breaking option for stall teams, as stall vs stall is typically reliant on the teambuilding, and this new dimension to the game would make matchups between defensive teams even more intricate.

Oct 22nd, 2012, 11:39:45 PM	#17
Lavos Spawn Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 2,181 Mentor	there's a reason we have banned all OHKO moves from all tiers, it's because they're completely uncompetitive and take away skill from battles, replacing it with sheer luck...really I only see these OHKO moves as a last-ditch effort for the loser of a battle to overtake the winner as a result of a 30% chance, what kind of bs is that?

Oct 22nd, 2012, 11:48:14 PM	#18
locoghoul Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 674 Charlotte	^ easy kid. There is a reason for testing. If it proves to be unhealthy then it will remained banned BUT with some solid -sorta- evidence this time. So far my thoughts have been confirmed: it doesn't have a -negative- impact on the metagame. Most of the teams I've played against don't have OHKO users/moves. IMO, it will remain as a gimmick on lower ranks in the ladder if unbanned. Let's see what happens in 10 days __________________ Ubers RMT Corona Blast! Girotina's Revenge Here comes the Sun

Oct 23rd, 2012, 7:21:24 AM	#19
Mr.lol Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 653 complex plane	OK so I ended up testing HO and balanced and I ended up almost never encountering a single OHKO move x_x. There was this one time I saw a Kyogre using Sheer Cold but saying its efforts were futile is an understatement (lol), there is no place for these moves to be used in such a fast-paced environment. If you thought sleeping Ogre were setup bait for Dragon Dance Rayquaza wait until you see what Scald Sheer Clod Rest talk variants are. I'll go ahead and try OHKO moves on my own team later on (on an alt though :P), but I'm not too hopeful about their potential. @Lavos Spawn, yeah but they risk losing a winning game if their move DOES miss too lol. __________________ (15:32) Dusk [DW Uber]: Actually Deoxys-a is not the frailest uber (15:32) Dusk [DW Uber]:Its Carvanha (15:33) X-Spin: O.O What are its bases? (15:33) Dusk [DW Uber]: 45/20/20 so close to matching Deo-a's 50/20/20 (15:33) X-Spin: That's enough to wall Specs Kyogre! Great Sage is the best.

Oct 23rd, 2012, 7:43:13 AM	#20
*Antar That's Dr. Antar to you Super Moderator** Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,050 DC Metro Area	Is anyone besides me concerned that a rating cutoff of 2k is a bit high for Ubers? IIRC, it'll mean you're limiting the decision to 2-3 players. __________________ Codes and Hacks I Use PBR FC: 4898-8739-8815 (See here) Black FC: 4040 5386 0128 / White 2 FC: 4771 3664 7215 My Narrated PBR & Gen V Battles My Trade Thread Convert any sim team to pkms Pokemetrics: A Blog

Oct 23rd, 2012, 7:44:55 AM	#21
*Great Sage* Administrator** Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 5,872 Boston, MA Mentor	We're just using what OU's cutoff is as a baseline. The rating requirement will definitely be revised if we find that very few people make the cutoff now.

Oct 23rd, 2012, 7:55:03 AM	#22
*Antar That's Dr. Antar to you Super Moderator** Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,050 DC Metro Area	k For the record, I think removing OHKO clause is an AWFUL idea. But I also believe hax items (Brightpowder, Quick Claw, etc.) should be banned. Pokemon has enough of a luck component WITHOUT adding additional elements. __________________ Codes and Hacks I Use PBR FC: 4898-8739-8815 (See here) Black FC: 4040 5386 0128 / White 2 FC: 4771 3664 7215 My Narrated PBR & Gen V Battles My Trade Thread Convert any sim team to pkms Pokemetrics: A Blog

Oct 23rd, 2012, 10:55:46 AM	#23
The Immortal VOCARE AD REGNUM Moderator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 280 ...	I just wanted to say that in one of my battles, I had Fire Blast miss 5 times in a row. Now that did not cost me said battle; however, an OHKO move (which has twice the chance of hitting as Fire Blast does missing) hitting me 5 times in a row would definitely cost me a battle. As a result, I feel the OHKO Clause should remain.

Oct 23rd, 2012, 3:36:59 PM	#24
Pocket Bakuman ;< Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7,181 Bergenfield	Congrats on the reqs, The Immortal! Your reasoning to ban OHKO move is shitty, though. Have somebody actually hit you with an OHKO moves 5x? You need to back your decision with less theorymon and more play experience. Using one outlier game to show how extreme luck played against you doesn't prove anything (other than you had bad luck). __________________ Dark Horse Project: Conquer the Ladder! \| Word of Wisdom for Trainers \| Smogon Doubles: Let's Make It Official!

Oct 23rd, 2012, 4:09:40 PM	#25
The Immortal VOCARE AD REGNUM Moderator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 280 ...	Thank you! You are correct, and as far as I saw OHKO moves were rarely used (the few times being Sheer Cold Kyogre), and only successfully hit me once; however, it is still luck as you mentioned. I shouldn't have to lose or win a game because of luck.