The CAP Kitchen: Non-Competitive Discussion Goes Here

[TheStarRapper]

^That's a pretty cool idea actually, I'm sure we could do it with the right abilities/typing.
I think it might be hard to ride the line with overcompensating with an ability. Still worth a shot though.


I also wanted to say that I think weather is a possibility for something we should look at. A hail, sand, rain, or sun starter could probably teach us a bunch about the tour de force that is weather in OU.

[CiteAndPrune]

If we're talking low BST, I'm waiting for a Capmon with a Speed stat less than Shuckle's.

It'd be friends with every Trick Room user out there, and Fidgit would see more reason to use its secondary ability.


But there are really many ways to go about BST. Choosing just one form of offense or going glass cannon attacker (with priority perhaps) or choosing slow tank/supporter. It's just a matter of placing the most stat points in the best of places.

CAP has rules against such 'optimization' of stats, if I remember right, because historically we've always been trying to 'give stats as close to a real Pokemon as possible'. But didn't BW break those self-imposed limits for us when it came out? So maybe it's time to re-evaluate what is acceptable and not when it comes to stat spreads?

Well, whatever CAP4 turns out to be I'm hoping for some brave stat spreads to give my support to, when that stage of the process comes around.

[akela]

A thought has come to me while exploring Smogon's abilitydex. Soundproof. Sound based moves.

Competitive Use

Soundproof has next to no competitive use, it has to be said. All the Pokemon who have this ability have better abilities or are just too bad to make an impact in the standard tier these days. Electrode will probably run it over Static and Mr. Mime will probably use it as well, but really you never see them very often.

I assume sound based moves are not really competitive, since Soundproof isn't considered competitive. Why is this? I would like to explore why sound based moves are not more prevalent. What it would take to make them more prevalent. How to deal with them reliably. Really, an examination into the role of sound in the metagame. Our focus should not shift towards balancing a metagame or cap, but rather continue exploring what makes the metagame tick.

I know that I previously contradicted the last 2 sentences. I've done some thinking since that last post. Before we concern ourselves with "fixing" any metagame, we need to know how it works. Otherwise, our "fixes" can cause far greater problems than we imagined.

[adhdtv]

Note: This is my First Post

Like a bunch of people here, I'd like to see a normal/ghost because of its immunity to most priority moves, as well as night shade and seismic toss. I also believe it would make pursuit more common though, so Tyrannitar and Scizor may be threatening based on its defenses. Bullet punch is on every Scizor, but maybe it will make aqua jet more common.

@akela
I also think a soundproof pokemon would be useful with decent stats. If it was steel or poison type to counter toxic, it could set up freely without fearing Politoad's Perish Song(If it has it)

[CiteAndPrune]

Soundproof is tied with the sound-based moves for usefulness. There are only a handful of sound-based offensive moves (Hyper Voice and Bug Buzz being the most powerful) and other sound-based moves have alternatives (Heal Bell vs Aromatherapy, Roar vs Whirlwind and now also Dragon Tail and Circle Throw).

If a move akin to Draco Meteor was introduced, but a Sound-based move, then it'd perhaps see utility for the same reason Levitate is awesome for stopping Earthquake and Spikes (among other moves). So to make Soundproof useful we'd need to see a Sound-centric threat rise in the metagame (Tinted Lens Choiced Bugs relying primarily on Bug Buzz would absolutely hate Soundproof, for the same reason it's risky to just click Earthquake on your Choice Bander).


The Normal/Ghost type could probably handle any pursuiters in the metagame if given adequate defenses and Will'o'Wisp (which most Ghosts have) and maybe Reflect; that could be a great tank, setting up on the only weakness (Dark, and most Dark moves are physical except for only Night Daze, Dark Pulse and the weak Snarl) by burning Dark counters. It's just one of the possible routes but it might be interesting to explore nonetheless (since barring Fire types and Guts-Pursuiters, of which only Heracross and Collosoil come to my mind now, burn would cripple most every other physical threat).

The immunity to Seismic Toss and Night Shade is really interesting though. With the added possibility of Pain Split in its moveset, I sense really fun and unorthodox sets that other type combinations couldn't pull off to such great effect.

So much talk of Ghost/Normal! Yeah, it's a really cool typing conceptually with a lot of neat possibilities design-wise. At one point, I got bored and made up a bunch of Pokemon (as we all do from time to time, I'm pretty sure), and my legendary trio was a Ghost/Fighting representing omnipotence, a Ghost/Psychic representing omniscience, and a Ghost/Steel representing omnipresence. I then had the trio's master be a Ghost/Normal representing omnibenevolence. Given this kind of characterization of Ghost/Normal, giving it the abilities Justified isn't out of the question, meaning that using the only super-effective type against the Pokemon will also raise its attack power. I really like it when a Pokemon has an ability that both makes great sense thematically and also benefits it greatly competitively.

Originally Posted by Fat bugmaniacbob

CAP4 will likely be a fast, bulky Ground-type with a heavy support emphasis. What are your ideas for the artwork for a CAP of this description? Names? Possible flavour abilities? Discuss.

Well, the first thing we have to get out of the way is that we have to be honest with ourselves and admit that CAP is heavily biased towards picking type combinations that are not already found in the games. This means that the type combinations we would be most likely to see from such a Pokemon would be... Ground/Normal or Ground/Fighting. Neither is too awesome, to be honest. Normal only offers Ghost immunity, which is okay but not critical, and it comes at the cost of a Fighting weakness, which is highly undesirable. Ground/Fighting seems awesome at first, considering that Ground and Fighting are both great offensive types, but some of the coverage is redundant. Still, and even despite the fact the CAP has so many Fighting types already, I think that Ground/Fighting would be the most likely here, and it does have some merits.

In the spirit of what I said in my earlier post, I'd like to go with a design that has some legendary or mythological basis already built in, so no simple "kick-boxing rabbit", "scrappy badger", "Earthworm Jim", or anything like that (as awesome as that last one would be). Off of the top of my head, Gargoyle is covered by Druddigon and Golem is covered by Golurk, but that still leaves us some other good options. Stereotypical fantasy Dwarves have strong associations with earth and are considered great warriors, so a humanoid Pokemon modeled after a Dwarf could be interesting. A Sphinx-inspired design could also work, especially if it were more specially-based than physically. Then you have more obscure things like the Grootslang, and if we want to go with something more silly or modern, there's always the Graboid, though I'd worry there about the possible conceptual overlap with Colossoil. Either way, if we're looking for something fast and more on the support side of combat, it seems to me that the Sphinx should be the perfect fit for a design starting point.

Now, many depictions of Sphinxes include wings, and that may present some problems for those people that think wings must equal either Flying typing or Levitate as an ability, but we can get around this with just a bit of creative thinking. For example, this is a common pose for a Sphinx's wings to be posed in. I propose that this structure simply look like wings but actually function as a kind of back-mounted fin or scythe-like weapon. That may somewhat resemble what Absol has going on, but I'm personally perfectly okay with this similarity.

As for flavor ability, it'd be great to have something as evocative as possible of the Sphinx's connection to riddles. Analytic sounds cool; it'd be useless to a Pokemon that we want to be fast, but it's a flavor ability, so whatever. Own Tempo could maybe work, suggesting that the Pokemon is too used to clever thinking to be so easily confused. For a general desert-evocative theme, there's always Sand Force, Sand Rush, or Sand Veil, but those would be pretty competitive. Finally, there's Mummy, playing up part of the Egyptian theme.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot to give it a name. Hmm... It has to have some element of the word "riddle" in it... or maybe puzzle, enigma, mystery, paradox, perplex, conundrum... Mysterend? Riddlance? Puzzlance? Enigmedge? Sphinxlash? Eh, I don't think I'm that great at names.

[RavensNation]

Originally Posted by Fat Asylum_Rhapsody

So much talk of Ghost/Normal! Yeah, it's a really cool typing conceptually with a lot of neat possibilities design-wise. At one point, I got bored and made up a bunch of Pokemon (as we all do from time to time, I'm pretty sure), and my legendary trio was a Ghost/Fighting representing omnipotence, a Ghost/Psychic representing omniscience, and a Ghost/Steel representing omnipresence. I then had the trio's master be a Ghost/Normal representing omnibenevolence. Given this kind of characterization of Ghost/Normal, giving it the abilities Justified isn't out of the question, meaning that using the only super-effective type against the Pokemon will also raise its attack power. I really like it when a Pokemon has an ability that both makes great sense thematically and also benefits it greatly competitively.

I did something like that recently. Four legendary Pokémon based off of the four major Aztec gods: Tezcatlipoca (Ghost/Rock), the obsidan jaguar, god of death, Xipe-Totec (Grass/Ground), the self-flaying, god of life and blight, Huitzilopochti (Fighting/Steel), the armored hummingbird, god of war, and Quetzalcoatl (Electric/Flying), the feathered serpent, god of the people. Looking back, though, they're pretty underpowered for legendary Pokémon...

Anywho, when I think of a Normal/Ghost (Ghost/Normal, whatever) Pokémon, I think of a Jack-in-the-box... I really like the idea of a haunted toy box...

[GRs Cousin]

Normal/Ghost would be an amazing typing, both speaking competitively and in flavor.

The former isn't to be discussed in this thread (though the idea of a Normal/Ghost with Rattled would be fun to talk about), but regarding flavor, it'd be really unique. Normal-types with a second type (besides Flying) are a scarcity, so it'd always be nice to see more. I somewhat wish Voodoom didn't exist, solely because I think the typing screams "Voodoo" to me. Maybe one could go for a split evolution for Voodoll?

Speaking of new typings, how would Fire/Water fare? I'd love to see a fog-inducing steam-based Pokemon with that. It'd promote the use of moves like Shock Wave and Aerial Ace outside of Technician and Hustle.

[Darth Missingno.]

A fog inducer? Interesting thought... It would certainly give Lucario a shot in the arm.

Another idea for Fire/Water: flamingoes.

[Keldeo DeArtagnan]

I'd like to see a Ghost/Normal or maybe a Dragon/Poison CAP pokemon in the future. I'm not sure what either one of those would be though.

Are evolutions of actual pokemon eligible for CAP projects? Just curious.

[Skore]

Originally Posted by Fat Keldeo DeArtagnan

Are evolutions of actual pokemon eligible for CAP projects? Just curious.

It's never been done before though I doubt you're the first to suggest it.

I'd like to see CAP take on the challenge of making an Ice Type that can survive comfortably in the OU meta, whether that's by stats, moves, ability or by pairing it with the perfect secondary type. Ice/Fighting - you know you want to!

[Keldeo DeArtagnan]

Ice-Fighting does sound pretty awesome, it covers up that nasty Rock weakness and has two good stabs. A new physical ice attack would likely be needed to make him more viable if it would be a physical attacker, maybe some sort of Ice-type ripoff of stone edge or double edge. Or perhaps give it Magic Guard and make it defensive, with Drain Punch and some way of patching up its other unfortunate weaknesses. I was thinking Water Sport or something like that but it may be not worth the moveslot.

[breh]

Originally Posted by Fat Skore

I'd like to see CAP take on the challenge of making an Ice Type that can survive comfortably in the OU meta, whether that's by stats, moves, ability or by pairing it with the perfect secondary type. Ice/Fighting - you know you want to!

Mamoswine is a very good mon in the current OU meta; essentially, all that it shows is that SR makes most Ice-types instantly bad if they're not neutral to rock (not all; Kyurem is OU because of subroost and pressure combined with fantastic stats and nice coverage in two moves, Cloyster is OU in spite of its type, and Abomasnow is only OU because it brings hail).

I'd also like to see a Pokemon based on the concept of an awful BST; Breloom is indeed an interesting Pokemon, given that it has a single good stat to make use of but more than makes up for it with a fantastic movepool / ability.

[zyrefredric]

I'd like to see a CAP with a primary focus on Typing. Moves such as Soak, Reflect Type, Camouflage, Conversion, Conversion 2, even Water Sport, Mud Sport, Odor Sleuth, Miracle Eye, as well as abilities such as Multitype, Color Change and Forecast, needs to be studied more. However, it would be so much cooler if we could make custom moves that embodies this concept, such as the one below:

Bizarre Room - Psychic - 30 PP - The types the Pokemon are resistant and weak to are switched. The types it is neutral and immune to remain the same. This effect lasts for five turns. Using Wonder Room while the effects are already active will cause the effects to cease.

Let's say Fire Punch-less Golurk (Ghost/Ground) uses Bizarre Room as Ferrothorn (Steel/Grass) comes in, hoping to Power Whip for the KO. With Bizarre Room in play, Golurk now resists Water, Grass, Ice, Ghost and Dark, but weak to Poison(4x), Bug and Rock. Ferrothorn, on the other hand, now resists Fire(4x) and Fighting, but weak to Normal, Water, Electric, Grass(4x), Psychic, Rock, ghost, Ground, Dragon, Dark and Steel. Easy win for Golurk there.

This move really messes up with typing, I bet so much can be learned out of this move alone. Take a look at the example below:

Magnezone (Steel/Flying)
immune: Poison
4x resist: Ground
2x resist: Fire, Fighting
neutral: Water
2x weak: Normal, Electric, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark
4x weak: Flying, Steel

[Pwnemon]

CAP will always shy away from implementing custom moves or abilities, and if we do tend to do so, it will only be as a secondary aim to accomplish the concept. If you want to make a concept that revolves around a new mechanic, prepare to have your post deleted and possibly infracted, or at best, not slated.

[bugmaniacbob]

As a note, you are allowed to be discussing CAP4's flavour here.

So yes, if you have an idea for artwork, dex entries, or any other kind of flavour, or just want to discuss the flavour of art entries already submitted, please feel free to post.

Just in case anyone was unsure...

Convenient, I was just about to ask you about that over IRC.

One thing I'd like to see from the artwork is making more of an effort than has been made with official Pokemon to bring the Psychic typing into the visual forefront. Very few official Psychic-type Pokemon have visual indications of their typing (Alakazam's bent spoons, Hypno's pendulum, Espeon's dowsing-rod-like tail, and... that's about it?), and I think we can do more and better. Calad's current entry with the crystal ball is a good example, but there are plenty of other possible psychic-evocative artifacts: Tarot cards, Zener cards, Ouija boards, somebody mentioned the possibility of a spider Pokemon whose web was a dream-catcher, even those little paper fortune tellers. Another angle that I do think could be successful would be to play up psychology in general. For example, I saw a Psychic-type fakemon somewhere that was in a straightjacket (straightjacket? yellowjacket? There's gotta be something there...), or somebody could make something that drew design inspiration from the Rorschach test.

The point is, there are a lot of great and creative ways that the Psychic typing could be made visually apparent, and I'd prefer that over the Gardevoir or Gothitelle approach of "We'll just say it's Psychic" for this project because then we'll just be left with a bug, maybe a pink or purple bug.

[meteor64]

I was thinking something to do with the bugs extremities (wings, limbs) exhibiting or embodying the kirlian effect, but since I completely suck at art I'm afraid I'd have to leave the concept to someone else to take hold of :/

[MrCookie]

oh my god, spider in a straight jacket. someone draw it now

[jagged_angel]

Now that Aurumoth has a stat spread and artwork, I am excited to discuss its non-competitive movepool and competitive but flavourful moves.

Flavour-wise, Aurumoth has lots of potential in its features. Its staring eyes make me think Glare, Miracle Eye and Mind Reader would be a perfect fit. Mind Reader makes a lot of sense with No Guard too, since variants with the other abilities would then still be able to ensure they didn't miss their target.

Horn Leech and Horn Attack both fit very well with Aurumoth's antlers. I am not sure they're imposing enough for Megahorn though.

Its tail is perfect for Tail Glow, or if that gets deemed too powerful, it could be utilised for other purposes, like communicating via Signal Beam, creating a Light Screen, or shooting a Charge Beam. Simple Beam would also fit: "The user's mysterious psychic wave changes the target's Ability to Simple." It's tail might also allow it to Charge, and there is precedent for a non-Electric pokemon getting this in the Klinklang line.

Its wings look like they could rustle up a Silver Wind, or even a Hurricane (after all, Volcarona learns it too). Their golden colour suggests maybe Reflect, Mirror Shot or Mirror Coat. Its angelic aspect suggests it could Healing Wish, Quiver Dance or Lunar Dance.

It is a shame Doom Desire is banned, and is now Steel-typed, because its decription makes it sound close to a Light-typed move as Pokemon is every going to get: "Two turns after this move is used, the user blasts the target with a concentrated bundle of light." It also conjures visions of heavenly wrath that fit perfectly with Aurumoth's golden, angelic aspects. Luster Purge is also banned as a legendary signature move, but it is Psychic-typed and sounds rather angelic "The user lets loose a damaging burst of light. It may also reduce the target's Sp. Def stat." Power Gem is another move that references a ray of light, and several non-Rock types like Ampharos and Vespiquen get it, presumably related to Ampharos' glowing tail and Vespiquen's bindi!

You might this is a frivolous topic, and it is, but it will also be a useful place for movepool creators to come get ideas for the flavour aspect of their movepools.

[CiteAndPrune]

I'm glad that this discussion is starting. It doesn't seem frivolous at all - and I'm in favour of almost all those options, jagged_angel. The better that many among them are risky moves in themselves, or represent risky tactics. It is a shame about Doom Desire though, although Future Sight is there at least. It'll probably be deemed non-competitive, but for flavor reasons I'd love to see Future Sight (and also Dream Eater even if every other healing move was disallowed) in Aurumon's arsenal, providing situationally useful moves that offer a great reward.

I don't know about Megahorn either, I find it might be a bit too powerful, and... Attack Order was mentioned but I honestly don't see it working outside of Vespiquen. On the other hand weaker Bug moves like Silver Wind and Bug Bite (even without Technician) fit the design and I'm hoping to see them making their way onto the level up (or egg) moves lists.

The wings are fit for Hurricane, and Heat Wave (as opposed to Flamethrower); it's because of the tail that I suggested Aqua Tail for its Water STAB, as really, that'd probably be easiest to justify flavor-wise, as opposed to Surf and Hydro Pump. Charge and Charge Beam seem like good choices too to round out Electric moves, and for all the eyes I think Mean Look might deserve a chance (as locking oneself into 1v1 is in and of itself a risky strategy, when you need the timing to do it and waste a turn and a moveslot just to stop the opponent from switching; but Stored Power sets could probably get away with it, if they set up on something harmless).

[Bummer]

Originally Posted by Fat CiteAndPrune

Heat Wave (as opposed to Flamethrower); it's because of the tail that I suggested Aqua Tail for its Water STAB, as really, that'd probably be easiest to justify flavor-wise, as opposed to Surf and Hydro Pump.

Agreed on Heatwave and that Surf and Hydro Pump are unlikely design wise. It doesn't really have a tail to speak of though (as much of a tail like Volbeat), so Razor Shell is one water attack that I feel is more appropriate to its design.

If it's animation will be following KoA's vision, then Drill Peck and Drill Run wouldn't be off the table. Horn Drill too I guess, but with No Guard being an option, I suppose we can't let that one in. Bonemerang could also serve as an alternative ground move, if Earthquake end up disallowed.

[GRs Cousin]

Originally Posted by Fat Bummer

Horn Drill too I guess, but with No Guard being an option, I suppose we can't let that one in. Bonemerang could also serve as an alternative ground move, if Earthquake end up disallowed.

Since OHKO moves are banned anyway, we could easily go with Horn Drill. I'd hope of all things that it'd be an event move, though. No Guard Horn Drill would be a mess outside of competitive battling... Also, Bonemerang just seems iffy to me. It doesn't have a bone to speak of, nor does it have anything to hold a bone with. How would that work? I'd much sooner see Drill Run happening.

I'm really glad Overheat is the only legal Fire-type move now. In terms of flavor, it not only follows the whole seraph reference (being that they had 6 wings and were associated with fire), but it also works brilliantly with a Dex entry I've been writing up.

Anyone else see this thing as our first Legendary CAP? It has a 600 BST, so that means its either acts as an event Legendary or a Pseudo-Legendary, the latter of which would require two prevos and an immunity (which clearly we do not have). Therefore, since nothing else has anywhere near 600 BST without a gimmick, it's clear to me that this thing is at the very least exclusive to one-per-game.

[bugmaniacbob]

Anyone else see this thing as our first Legendary CAP? It has a 600 BST, so that means its either acts as an event Legendary or a Pseudo-Legendary, the latter of which would require two prevos and an immunity (which clearly we do not have). Therefore, since nothing else has anywhere near 600 BST without a gimmick, it's clear to me that this thing is at the very least exclusive to one-per-game.

I very much doubt it. This thing will most likely have egg moves, pretty much. Which rules out legendaries as an option. Besides, pseudo-legendaries are only defined by the 600 BST - the immunity is an inconsequential observation (as in, they are not an official Nintendo class of Pokemon, they just happen to have a recurring BST - I would be more than willing to bet that the immunity is coincidence, and no more than them all being able to surpass 400 Attack (until Garchomp) or all having attacking stats of 130 or higher (until Hydreigon...)).

More to the point, FLUFFY MOTH PREVOS EEEEH - well, anyway. Ahem.

Nice to see that this place is getting some activity! I might actually share some of my own flavour ideas, since I can't submit a movepool this time around...

To me, I enjoy movepool flavour where all the flavour moves share some sort of archetypal significance. Most notably, since this Pokemon shares the sort of divine theme with Arceus, a good place to start looking for movepool flavour is Arceus's level-up movepool. I like the idea of Punishment, Cosmic Power, Natural Gift, Hyper Voice, and Gravity on this CAP. Judgement would also be nice, but alas that it is legendary-exclusive.

Another nice group of moves in flavour terms would be the all-stat raisers, namely Silver Wind, Ancientpower, and Ominous Wind. The former two are fairly obvious in flavour terms; Ominous Wind is a little harder to justify given its association with dark and evil and what not, but it might be a nice touch or another part of Aurumoth's character. Speaking of wind, that's another direction to go in, with such moves as Air Cutter, Razor Wind, Icy Wind, and Gust being nice additions along that theme. Unfortunately I almost certainly will not be allowing Hurricane, so that doesn't work.

These are all the ideas I have off the top of my head; it would be nice if everyone could pool their flavour ideas here to give movepool creators their own ideas, or at least a starting point.

[Delta Nite]

Originally Posted by Fat GRs Cousin

Anyone else see this thing as our first Legendary CAP? It has a 600 BST, so that means its either acts as an event Legendary or a Pseudo-Legendary, the latter of which would require two prevos and an immunity (which clearly we do not have). Therefore, since nothing else has anywhere near 600 BST without a gimmick, it's clear to me that this thing is at the very least exclusive to one-per-game.

I agree. I can't really see it as a pseudo-legendary. They tend to be big and brutal, whilst Aurumoth looks pretty deadly yet fragile. My favourite idea is to make it a Legendary.

And about that and what BMB said about egg moves, if the winner of the movepool stage were able to make it without any egg moves, and we were able to make Aurumoth Legendary, in wich stage it would happen? I'm guessing the Pokédex entries Poll, but I'm not sure.