The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Chou Toshio]

Thundurus T is baller with Agility; I'm going to agree with PK on that. If you are in need of a really effective electric-type wallbreaker (read: you want to use Volt Switch), Expert Belt is the set you wanna go with imo.

Heracross as a B-Rank? I'm going to say no. It's just not relevant to the metagame really... It's not fast enough or bulky enough naturally to do much without Choice Scarf, and with Choice Scarf, it's just too predictable and has coverage somewhat subpar for OU. Not to mention it's basically 100% inferior to Terrakion. I'm not going to try for a Moxie Sweep with Megahorn or Stone-Fail's accuracy, and Close Combat is planty strong on Scarf Terrakion.

Especially with Gliscor and both Landorus being so popular/effective, and Hippowdon coming in as the more popular sand setter instead of Tyranitar. The recent Foretress > Skarmory helps Heracross's case a bit, but Heracross still lacks what every effective Fighting type in the metagame has: Speed, precisely 108 Speed, or Priority.

Thing is Heracross is not only out performed by A and S rank Pokemon (Keldeo, Breloom, Terrakion, Genosect sort-of); it's also outclassed by B class ones (Lucario, Scizor), and frankly, even Conkuldurr and Infernape (C tier) are much more effective Pokemon overall. For weird substitute sets or mid-speed/bulky fighting types, Toxicroak (and Breloom of course) are much more relevant.

Since Heracross isn't relevant to any type of weather except beating sand (which Scarf Terrakion does WAY better, especially not getting hit by sand damage), and is inferior to other Fighting types in OU in bulk, speed, no priority, and even in base ATK, I'd say ~D or lower makes sense. Heracross does sound about as relevant to the metagame as Metagross.

btw-- usage in UU means jack shit here.

[DarkBlazeR]

Cloyster should be moved down to C rank. Whilst its Shell Smash set is extremely threatening in theory, in practise I find it rarely ever manages to pull off a sweep, mostly because it has trouble breaking through most of the common Water & Steel types, can set up on very little due to its abysmal Special Defense, and is easily revenged killed by many Choice Scarf users. Now this is obviously from my own observations, but I really don't think Cloyster is particularly dominant in the current metagame.

Although I'd rather not have B rank too overly populated, I am still going to propose Victini for B rank. Whilst it is very susceptible to hazards and has a mediocre defensive typing, it is bar none the best Fire type physical sweeper, capable of demolishing almost anything in its wake with V-create in the sun. It has become a staple on many sun teams thanks to the popularity of Lavos' GeneSun team.

I think Jolteon should stay in B rank. It is quite a dangerous Pokemon that can really do a number on teams lacking one of the pink blobs, Ferrothorn or Gastrodon. Its natural speed tier is what really sets it apart from other Electric sweepers.

[Tabuu]

Agility Thundurus-T is great for late game I guess so A-Tier is suitable...but otherwise I still feel its other sets are B-Tier stuff...
Anyways, a Pokemon I feel that is ready for some promoting is none other than:

Volcarona's Flaws:
-It's typing leaves it 4x weak to SR. Obviously this greatly cripples Volcarona and can be devasting in some cases. Also despite those big-ass wings, this bug seems unable to lift itself off the ground (wondering how Roost works then) and takes full damage from Spikes. It also can be hurt by Toxic Spikes. While its speed tier isn't badby any means, it isn't enough to compete with the big boys of OU, unless it has a boost. It's two STABs are also resisted by a handful of Pokemon that can threated Volcarona

Volcarona's Strengths:
-Oh boy. While Volcarona has it's major flaws, her strengths are just too good. Let's start with stats. It was literally built to be OU's top threatening Special Sweeper. It's fast, strong, and bulky on the special side. It has Flame Body that'll let it hopefully cripple a 'Mon. But we're not done. She has quite the impressive movepool with great coverage. Fire Blast is STAB and can scare Sun Team sweepers. In the rain Fire Blast can OHKO Ferrothorns (Life Orbed) and heavily dent Steel Types such as Jirachi, that give rain teams problems. It has Bug Buzz to hit Dark and Psychic types that will try to set up on Volcarona. Giga Drain KOs Bulky waters and allow her to deal with a vast majority of Drizzle and Sandstorm. Hurricane is another addition to her movepool. And of course a HP of choice is viable too. As you can see Volcarona can counter other weathers quite nicely. Volc also resists all priority except Aqua Jet
But wait....There's more ;)
Quiver Dance ladies and gents, is what made this moth flutter up to OU. It's definitely OU's broken set up moves along with Growth in Sun, Shell Smash and Dragon Dance.

SO OVERALL:
Volcarona is A-Tier. I look at other A-tier pokemon, like dragonite and salamence. They too have their weaknesses , but are able to overcome it and settle in A. Volcarona after a boost or two, has no counters. It can destroy, almost, almost 98% of the OU Metagame with boosts.
It can force switches although it has trouble switching in. However, it is able to sweep a significant portion of the metagame

[Lady Alex]

I don't see Volcarona as having A-tier potential As has been said earlier in the thread, it's really strong after a QD, but it has such a difficult time coming in. Its 4x weakness to SR is a huge factor in it not being worthy of A-tier as well. Offensive teams with spinblockers (which are exceptionally common nowadays) make Volcarona's life very difficult. The last nail in its B-Tier coffin is the fact that depending on which hidden power you run (assuming you run one) Volcarona is going to be walled hopelessly by Dragonite or Heatran.

[Tabuu]

Originally Posted by Fat Lady Alex

I don't see Volcarona as having A-tier potential As has been said earlier in the thread, it's really strong after a QD, but it has such a difficult time coming in. Its 4x weakness to SR is a huge factor in it not being worthy of A-tier as well. Offensive teams with spinblockers (which are exceptionally common nowadays) make Volcarona's life very difficult. The last nail in its B-Tier coffin is the fact that depending on which hidden power you run (assuming you run one) Volcarona is going to be walled hopelessly by Dragonite or Heatran.

I agree with you. But hear me out:
I am currently playing with Volcarona it works wonders for me. Getting a QD is not as hard as you think. Rapid Spinning? Using Starmie is so good as Starmie is fast, can spin, can KO Spinblockers and attracts Bug+Grass moves for Volcarona to switch into. Heatran can also be dealt with by Starmie or another teammate. (lol, just realize that A-Tier pokemon still do require support so duh, volcarona will get walled by one of them.Dragonite can also be walled by skarmory, ferrothorn or bronzong, if dnite does not carry the appropriate move. so we carrry teammates to help KO them. Get what Im sayin?)
Anyhow, with Dragonite and Heatran out of the picture, Giga Drain+Bug Buzz+Fire Blast with Lum Berry has worked wonders for me. Just saying from experience, you obviously can't play stupid with Volcarona. She still needs support. However, getting Volcarona in and getting a Dance is easier than you think it would be :)

[Lady Alex]

The degree of support it needs to do its job is the problem. You're making it sound easier than it really is to sweep your opponent with Volcarona. What if your spinner dies before it's able to spin? What if they save their Dragonite, Heatran, Scarf Tyranitar/Landorus, keldeo, or Tornadus-T (if the rain is up)? There's a lot standing in its way and it needs a lot of support in order to do its job. B tier is fine for it.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Although Volcarona may have very, very few counters after one Quiver Dance, it is still easy to revenge kill. Just have something with 101 base speed or higher (100 base speed can also outrun bulkier versions) that packs a super-effective attack, preferably one physical. With a Choice Scarf, all of them can outspeed Volcarona even after one Quiver Dance, and kill him with the move of choice. Landorus, Garchomp (I didn't even saw someone using ScarfChomp, however), Keldeo and Terrakion are just some of them. This limits Volcarona's effectiveness, as you must also not only kill Dragonite and Heatran, but also any potential revenge killer, unless you know that they aren't using Choice Scarf, and you have the right move. Also, Starmie can't kill all the spinblockers as easily as it sounds. Jellicent avoids the 2HKO from Thunderbolt with a specially defensive spread (I've burn-stalled many Starmies that tried to 2HKO my Jellicent). And without a psychic-type STAB attack, wich most Starmie don't carry, it has to rely on the shaky accuracy of Hydro Pump to OHKO Gengar, and as frail as Gengar is, without Stealth Rock he can survive one unboosted (no Life Orb or no Rain) Hydro Pump. Of course, these are situations that you may not face, so Starmie still is good against most spinblockers.

[Phazon00]

Landorus-T does not deserve B. I say C, at best. Seriously, it's in the same rank as freakin' Gliscor.

[Electrolyte]

Originally Posted by Fat Phazon00

Landorus-T does not deserve B. I say C, at best. Seriously, it's in the same rank as freakin' Gliscor.

This, I have to disagree with.Landorus-T shouldn't exactly be compared with Gliscor, because the two play very different roles. Landorus-T is more of a tank and bulky pivot / sweeper, whereas Gliscor is pretty much restricted to Support / Defense (though, it's AcroGem set is quite dandy, but that's for another time) Coming in, Landorus-T's bulky tanker set has even more physical and special bulk than Gliscor's- and is more powerful as well. Landorus-T tends to cause a lot of switches like his Therian brothers, and can use that free time to set SR, U-Turn, or just hit really hard with a STAB EQ. However, Landorus-T isn't exactly suitable for the higher tiers because of its weakness to water / ice and its subpar speed. However, it is fine in the B-Tier.

[Lord of Bays]

When BW first came out, I was so psyched to use the shit out of Volcabrona, because he's awesome. You know why I stopped using him after a few weeks?

Because Scarf Landorus and Terrakion were EVERYWHERE. Rock Slide does over 200% damage and Sand Force EQ did something silly like a minimum of 92% to offensive variants.

Now, neither of these guys are as popular anymore, as both of them lost the premier scarf role to Genesect and Landorus is seeing more usage as a special attacker. But, Tornadus-T's Timid LO Hurricane still OHKOs pretty much every Volcarona before a boost (116% minimum versus 252/0). Hell, it does a minimum of 92% at +1 to offensive variants, so if you don't OHKO with your own Hurricane (you have a shot with Hurricane, LO, and full investment) and you're in the rain you're fucked.

Volcarona is B- or maybe even C-tier. He's awesome, but rain and Heatran are too ubiquitous for him to be anything but niche.

[Tabuu]

Originally Posted by Fat Lady Alex

The degree of support it needs to do its job is the problem. You're making it sound easier than it really is to sweep your opponent with Volcarona. What if your spinner dies before it's able to spin? What if they save their Dragonite, Heatran, Scarf Tyranitar/Landorus, keldeo, or Tornadus-T (if the rain is up)? There's a lot standing in its way and it needs a lot of support in order to do its job. B tier is fine for it.

What if your spinner dies before it's able to spin?
Don't let it happen. Play conservately with your spinner as it is a vital supporter. If it fails to do so, so be it. Volcarona can still set up and sweep. We don't see people losing all hope on dragonite just because it broke multiscale and the spinner is dead.
Dragonite, Heatran, Scarf Tyranitar, Landorus, Keldeo, Tornadus-T.
Dragonite is dealt with rocks and mamoswine like i do.
Heatran is also dealt with by Lucario.
Scarf Tyranitar can eat a Bullet Punch to the face.
Landorus can take a scald from my starmie.
Keldeo will have trouble with Giga Drain and Psyshock Starmie.
Tornadus-T is KOd quite nicely in the rain with +1 Fire Blast after rocks.

Excuse me for my continous reference to Dragonite but couldnt someone argue the same for the nite?
"It loses Multiscale to easily. Rocks and weather will break it. Switching it into a move breaks the scales. Ice Shard can OHKO it. Scarf Pokemon can also do the same right back at Dragonite. Remember once it loses multiscale, it becomes heavily outclasses by other dragons such as mence." so are these good reasons for kickin it down to B-Tier. No way. It such a good pokemon, once it receives the right support. Remember all A-Tier require support to a certain extent. If they didn't, they'd be S-Tier

Obviously Dragonite and Heatran are straight up counters. But the others are really checks and will die if outplayed by a volcarona

[Tabuu]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

Although Volcarona may have very, very few counters after one Quiver Dance, it is still easy to revenge kill. Just have something with 101 base speed or higher (100 base speed can also outrun bulkier versions) that packs a super-effective attack, preferably one physical. With a Choice Scarf, all of them can outspeed Volcarona even after one Quiver Dance, and kill him with the move of choice. Landorus, Garchomp (I didn't even saw someone using ScarfChomp, however), Keldeo and Terrakion are just some of them. This limits Volcarona's effectiveness, as you must also not only kill Dragonite and Heatran, but also any potential revenge killer, unless you know that they aren't using Choice Scarf, and you have the right move. Also, Starmie can't kill all the spinblockers as easily as it sounds. Jellicent avoids the 2HKO from Thunderbolt with a specially defensive spread (I've burn-stalled many Starmies that tried to 2HKO my Jellicent). And without a psychic-type STAB attack, wich most Starmie don't carry, it has to rely on the shaky accuracy of Hydro Pump to OHKO Gengar, and as frail as Gengar is, without Stealth Rock he can survive one unboosted (no Life Orb or no Rain) Hydro Pump. Of course, these are situations that you may not face, so Starmie still is good against most spinblockers.

omg. go look at the s-tier and a-tier list. are you saying that they are not easily revenged?
Tornadus, Thundurus, Terrakion, Dragonite, Garchomp, Salamence, Landorus, Heatran
I mean really. Just because it can be easily revenge killed, its reason enough to drop it a tier? not really my friend

PS: Re-reading my posts and I realize I need to chill. I respect you guys and your reasoning. Just wanted to justify my reasons haha, sorry if I sound immature. We need some people, like PK Gaming to get in on this... ._.

[Tabuu]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord of Bays

When BW first came out, I was so psyched to use the shit out of Volcabrona, because he's awesome. You know why I stopped using him after a few weeks?

Because Scarf Landorus and Terrakion were EVERYWHERE. Rock Slide does over 200% damage and Sand Force EQ did something silly like a minimum of 92% to offensive variants.

Now, neither of these guys are as popular anymore, as both of them lost the premier scarf role to Genesect and Landorus is seeing more usage as a special attacker. But, Tornadus-T's Timid LO Hurricane still OHKOs pretty much every Volcarona before a boost (116% minimum versus 252/0). Hell, it does a minimum of 92% at +1 to offensive variants, so if you don't OHKO with your own Hurricane (you have a shot with Hurricane, LO, and full investment) and you're in the rain you're fucked.

Volcarona is B- or maybe even C-tier. He's awesome, but rain and Heatran are too ubiquitous for him to be anything but niche.

Sigh...The scarf arguments have already been discussed.
Just saying in the rain offensive Volcaronas aren't nerfed too much by rain. They can carry Giga Drain, hurricane or fire blast. (Fire Blast still kills the steels it needs to with LO +0).

Heatran and rain make him nothing more than a niche?
Then I guess Chomp can take step down thanks to Genesect, ,Skarmory, and Rain. (Obviously not!)
A-tier pokemon can have a solid counter. It's how well they can perform in the current metagame really.

[alexwolf]

Landorus-T in C-tier? Blasphemy! I would argue that he could go to A tier, as he is an awesome poke, but i am ok with him in B tier. In fact he is one of the best pokes in B tier... Why? It simply does so many things for offensive teams, and covers so many roles in one slot. He sets up SR reliably and holds back physical attackers, especially the beast that is called Terrakion, that otherwise most offensive teams would have to resort to revenge killing with priority. Preserves momentum with a hard hitting U-turn, which makes Starmie think twice before coming in to spin, as well as hitting some pokes resistant/immune to EQ very hard, such as Lati@s and Celebi. Finally that killer Attack alongside U-turn means that almost nothing can set-up on him. So Lano-T is an awesome poke and team player, filling the roles of physical tank which helps the team as well with Intimidate, SR setter, hard hitter, and scouter. He is just so reliable at what it does!

And please don't even compare him with Gliscor. Gliscor is quite shitty right now. He lost his main offensive set, AcroBat; ok he didn't lost it, but i haven't seen a single person using it after Sand Veil got banned. Rain teams are everywhere and they just murder him, Taunt Torn-T is everywhere, meaning that even if he does set up a Sub against something that it walls, it can't do shit to Torn-T and generally most pokes don't give a shit about him. He checks Terrakion and counters BandTar and HaxRachi but that's it. Many physical attackers such as Breloom, Lucario, physical dragons and Mamoswine can get past him really easy, often making him a liability. He is still an ok poke if you are need of its quantities, which are: amazing Terrakion check for defensive/balanced teams, status absorber, and a generally sturdy as fuck physical wall that has a lot of options such as U-turn, SR and Taunt to be useful for its team, but other than that he is meh.

Who knows maybe the CCAT will popularize SubPass Gliscor, which will become Gliscors's best set!!!

[Tabuu]

Agreeing with Alexwolf haha.
Gliscor and Landorus-T are far from the "same thing"....well except their typing and their physical bulk.

[BurningMan]

Originally Posted by Fat DarkBlazeR

Cloyster should be moved down to C rank. Whilst its Shell Smash set is extremely threatening in theory, in practise I find it rarely ever manages to pull off a sweep, mostly because it has trouble breaking through most of the common Water & Steel types, can set up on very little due to its abysmal Special Defense, and is easily revenged killed by many Choice Scarf users. Now this is obviously from my own observations, but I really don't think Cloyster is particularly dominant in the current metagame.

I completly agree with this Cloyster is currently really bad, without Focus Sash (wich needs spin support) it is almost impossible to set-up, it forces nothing out because it is neither particulary fast or strong before set-up and almost everything can outright KO it in the currently meta game. This wouldn't be so bad if it would be a monster after a shell smash, but a lot of threats are still bulky enough to take a hit and KO back and base 108 scarfers can still out speed and KO it. IMO C-Tiers Description fits perfectly on Cloyster it can be effective with the right support (preventing SR or Dual Screens), but it can't sweep consistently. In all honesty i haven't been sweeped by Cloyster since ages the most it has done to me was taking one or two pokemon down and then dying. So Cloyster to C-Tier.

I am also not sure about Gyarados in B-Tier i would have been perfectly OK with that in BW1, the biggest perks it got over the other DDers was its resistance to priority attacks, but i don't know if thats enough for B-Tier. It actually got the reverse problem of cloyster it got a nice set of resistances and alot of bulk+intimidate that makes it easy to set-up, but can't do really much after that almost every scarfer outspeeds it and is able to OHKO after SR this can be worked around by using the substitute set (wich is still the best set in my eyes), but this limits it to one coverage move wich means it will miss out on hitting a lot of the metagame (and Bounce is just a terrible attack). It is also pretty reliant on rain support as without it 80 BP is pretty weak for a stab attack wich makes consistent sweeping even harder. I also don't think the defensive sets are really worth it RestTalk is outright terrible in this generation especially on a Pokemon that is SR weak. Fast phazing looks cool until you realize that Gyarados isn't fast and you only got a 1 in 3 chance to actually do that and its Waterfall is also pretty weak without any investment (again 80 BP just doesn't really cut it anymore). All in all i can't really see what holds it in B-Tier right now other than the nostalgia for the good old DPP times where it was the boss that a giant leviathan is supposed to be, but in the ages of an ugly steel fossil Gyarados is nothing but C-Tier.

[Electrolyte]

On the topic of Volcarona:

I think it is fine where it is. It is not as hard to counter as pokemon from up there in the A and S tier, but it still holds its spot as one of the primary set up sweepers in the tier. The problem with the meta and Volcarona is this: its counters are powerful, but few. As a decently experienced rater, I have observed the lack of solid counters to the moth- resulting in many teams that are weak or just plain sweeped by it. The new advent of Genesect gave its bulky set so much more viabiliy- and its typing allows it to wall and set up on common physical sweepers like Loom. Volcarona cements itself as a good set up sweeper for at least until some new powerful rock type shows up.

I'd say Volcarona's main problem is its weakness to SR and the fact that all of its counters utterly wall it. The popularity of Heatran and Keldeo are hurting Volcarona, and most of the new Therians can OHKO it in one hit. It adds to a team's hazard weakness by a lot because it's offensive set is almost useless once rocks are up. With the right support, though, it can sweep pretty easily.

[Lady Alex]

Originally Posted by Fat Tabuu

omg. go look at the s-tier and a-tier list. are you saying that they are not easily revenged?
Tornadus, Thundurus, Terrakion, Dragonite, Garchomp, Salamence, Landorus, Heatran
I mean really. Just because it can be easily revenge killed, its reason enough to drop it a tier? not really my friend

PS: Re-reading my posts and I realize I need to chill. I respect you guys and your reasoning. Just wanted to justify my reasons haha, sorry if I sound immature. We need some people, like PK Gaming to get in on this... ._.

Look at every one of the pokemon you listed. None of them face the same terrible SR weakness that Volcarona does. Even though they can be revenge killed, they have a much easier time actually coming back in when given the opportunity. Because Volcarona is 4x weak to stealth rock, you pretty much just get one shot with it before it's down.

[Chou Toshio]

@Volc-- the point is that it's far too limited in what it can do. It takes a LOT of support to get a set up sweep, it can't do ANYTHING except setup sweep (it's pretty shit as a wall breaker because of 4x SR weak), and there is a huge variety of Pokemon that stop its setup sweep. It can work, but no where with the consistency and independence as an A rank threat like Dragonite or Garchomp.

As others have mentioned, because the other A-ranks lack that 4x SR weak, they have the freedom to do a lot more-- wall break, run scarf sets... hit hard, switch out, come back to hit hard again. Heatran isn't even a sweeper, so don't matter if it can be revenge killed; it's a top rank support pokemon. Volcarona is just too one-dimensional, because no matter what variation you use, it's only successful route is Quive Dance Sweeper.

Also, I can't believe you guys are questing the B-Tier level of Pokemon like Gyarados and Landorus-T when they share the rank with Pokemon like Kyurem and Xatu. Landorus-T is great in support, wall break, or Gravity sweep/destroy. Gyarados is somewhat outclassed by Salamence/Dragonite, but that doesn't mean its level of threat/viability is really low. It's definitely a lot more independent as an offensive Pokemon than Volcarona at least.

(however, out-sped and OHKO'd by Genosect is something Salamence/Volc don't have to worry about... Gyara has issues, but than I still think it's more viable than stuff like Blissey and Abamasnow...)

[Tabuu]

OK OK Volcarona stays in B-Tier :(
Just one question though:
I can't seem to understand how Dragonite Multiscale is much different.
He needs support from not taking residual weather damage and SR. He is a great 'Mon but he isn't really independent I feel (I've played with him so I know that DD requires a lotta love). And consistency? mmm....idk about that

Anyways. Nice little debate we had :)

[alkinesthetase]

the thing is that while ddnite is not so hot right now (cough my signature), it is far from the only thing dragonite is capable of doing. it is much more versatile than volcarona by virtue of a more flexible movepool and typing.

there are admittedly a lot of pokemon in this game that tend to put big appreciation on spin support, dnite is one, but not all its sets require the spin, because not all sets need scales on right away to ensure they can't be checked by every ice attack ever. bulkier supportive sets (parashuffler, subroostDD) are quite independent of spin support.

ultimately while dnite is demanding of spin support as well, it is nowhere near as demanding as volcarona, and it is also a lot more versatile. i don't see them being comparable enough to drop dnite to B

[Hemp Man]

Kingdra and Kyruem have their sprites switched in the first post

[FaceFaceFace]

With all the bloody Genesect leads at the moment, Volcarona could be pretty useful as an anti-genesect lead (or anti-lead in general, except (alas) for Politoed). QD in Genesect's face and start denting.

[Tabuu]

Quick question:
Which is more effective on Garchomp: SD or CS?

[alexwolf]

Definitely SD. ScarfChomp is not a very good set anyway. It lacks qualities that make a scarfer worthwhile, such as U-turn/Volt Switch, Trick and lastly spammable STABs. EQ is shit to be locked into, everyone knows this, and Outrage is even worse if you can't end games with it, see Scarf MoxieMence.

SD Chomp can be both strong and surprising which is very nice. There are 3 ways to use SD Chomp. SD + 3 attacks + LO, SD + 3 attacks + Yache Berry + lowered Def IVs so that your SpD is higher, and you can avoid the OHKO from Scarf Genesect's Ice Beam, and finally SubSD + 2 STABs + Salac Berry. The SD + 3 attacks LO set has no true counters, as at +2 it can 2HKO everything in OU iirc, but can be revenge killed very easy. The SD + 3 attacks set lures and kills certain revenge killers such as Mamo and Scarf Genesect, but lacks the power to 2HKO everything, and the last set can easily sweep offensive teams if priority users and faster Scarf users are eliminated.