CAP 4 - Part 9 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[ZhengTann]

Regards to Special Fire-type moves:

We all know that most physical Fire-type moves (Punch, Fang, Flame Charge, Flare Blitz) are either low on BPA or carries too much risk in recoil. So the special spectrum is the way to go if we're to score Fire-type coverage. Overheat is the undisputed move in terms of BPA, but look at the drawbacks -2 SpA per use. This will be a serious drawback to encourage people to use it for special sweeping purposes, though it would do okay for the attacker sets. So why not allow Flamethrower, or just Fire Blast? They provide a more stable Fire-coverage that allows for longer stay-in power. With Overheat, Hydro Pump, Blizzard, and Thunder as pretty much the only allowed special coverage, we're limiting what Aurumoth can do as a special sweeper, something BMB wanted it to do as freely as possible without overpowering it.

Yes, these moves aren't necessary. But you said so yourself, BMB - just because a move is Allowed doesn't mean it'll make it to the movepool submissions. We have Aura Spere with Focus Blast, Blizzard with Ice Beam, Thunder with Thunderbolt - so why not add another Fire-move for flexibility to the movepool makers?

Regarding the Final Gambit, I'd say allow it, too - except that it doesn't make the strategy anymore riskier than "come in on least number of entry hazards and attempting to kll off a threat with Base 110 HP".

[bugmaniacbob]

OK so um this is kind of awkward but...

Final Gambit, as it turns out, isn't actually a VGM... so if none of you had even mentioned it, you could have put it on your movepools without even counting it as a VGM and not broken any rules. See, this is why you check the VGM list before you post...

But since you have brought it up... eh, I guess I'll allow it. Everybody likes suicide strategies. Not sure if I'll count it as a VGM for this CAP since the only reason I did that with Fiery Dance was so that I could ban it... but since we're limiting the movepool, I suppose it would be inconsistent of me to not give Final Gambit the same treatment. OK, Final Gambit is now a VGM for this CAP.

Also on the subject of not reading the required lists, no Dream Eater is not a VGM and is pretty pointless if you don't have a sleeping move (and even if you do, it's still pretty pointless).

Also re. Fire-type attacks, I'm not entirely sure if "greater stay-in power" is exactly what we want with them. We already have perfect coverage with Fighting, Water, or Electric coverage, so why ever use Fire as a sweeping tool? And if it's only going to be used on 4-move attackers, why should those sets obtain a greater capacity to sweep? I'm not certain that that is something we want, honestly.

[Korski]

High-brow discussion

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Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Since its primary purpose is damage and Aurumoth has 110 HP, How do people feel about allowing Final Gambit? It's certainly a high risk strategy.

Originally Posted by Fat Nyktos

I like the idea. It's suitably risky and it's an interesting move that is rarely used but which Aurumoth is a reasonably good user of.

Originally Posted by Fat Master of the Six Kings

I like it, though i'm a bit weary of giving something with 110 HP and Illusion Final Gambit. Having to play like every Pokemon on your opponent's team can suddenly one shot almost everything on your team with no questions asked seems a bit rediculous. If it were made to be a Dream World only move, being only usable with No Guard, i'd be totally for it. This Pokemon is going to have enough going for it's Scarf Illusion set with its crazy coverage to turn it into a nuke that you won't see coming.

Originally Posted by Fat Meteor62

Considering the current strongest user of Final Gambit is Victini, I'm all for Aurumoth having it.

Originally Posted by Fat TheMagicalCake

Also I want to allow Final Gambit because it fits extremely well.

Originally Posted by Fat CiteAndPrune

Final Gambit sounds like fun, I'd say allow it.

Originally Posted by Fat forestflamerunner

I also love the idea of Final Gambit. I was going to bring it up in the next poll because that's where i thought it would belong, but i guess i was wrong about that. More on point, i feel that Final Gambit bottles the risk/reward concept into one move just about as well as any attack can. It, for obvious reasons, Is a swing or a miss attack and using it too early may leave you vulnerable to various threats that you relied on Auramoth to check while using it at the wrong time against the wrong threat could cost you a healthy pokemon.

MotSK raised some concerns about an Illusion Final Gambit combo. He feared that Final Gambit would become ridiculously easy to abuse with Ilusion because you can essentially lure out the counter to one of your sweepers or whatnot. I see where MOTK is coming from with this, but I kinda feel like the point of illusion is to lure out your opponents counters to your sweepers or walls and eliminate them anyways, so Final Gambit doesn't really add any new niche. It would just augment one of them. actually, when you think about it, it would be smarter to eliminate counters with coverage moves rather than final gambit in the long run, because then the threat is eliminated and you have a functioning Auramoth, so I doubt Final Gambit would be OP.

So yeah, Final Gambit=Sexy. Add to the movepool please!!!

Originally Posted by Fat ZhengTann

Regarding the Final Gambit, I'd say allow it, too - except that it doesn't make the strategy anymore riskier than "come in on least number of entry hazards and attempting to kll off a threat with Base 110 HP".

Originally Posted by Fat bugmaniacbob

But since you have brought it up... eh, I guess I'll allow it. Everybody likes suicide strategies. Not sure if I'll count it as a VGM for this CAP since the only reason I did that with Fiery Dance was so that I could ban it... but since we're limiting the movepool, I suppose it would be inconsistent of me to not give Final Gambit the same treatment. OK, Final Gambit is now a VGM for this CAP.

As a player, I find Final Gambit to be a silly move (besides being an oxymoron to begin with). It's not even a "last ditch" move that targets the opponent's biggest threats in some genius scheme to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat; it's a turn-1 troll move aimed at whatever so happens to be out there for the opponent at the time, which is sort of like saying "well I have nothing better to do here so I might as well cause a modicum of inconvenience for my opponent on the generically likely chance he/she may not want that Poke to lose all that HP." Meanwhile you've sacked your own Poke and are the only one of the two battlers guaranteed to have lost a Poke that turn. Final Gambit is low risk, low reward; if you want an opposing Pokemon to lose 424 HP, there you go, click that button and drop a hydrogen bomb on the entire field, but don't run around afterward saying you took this huge risk just to trade KOs with an opposing Poke you have no direct control over. That's no reward at all. It's a blind sacrifice for a zero sum gain. The only times I can see this move fulfilling the concept are against trappers like Scizor, Tyranitar, and Wobbuffet and against generic bulky VoltTurners like Jirachi, Rotom-W, and Forretress, in which cases you have a prepared response for being offensively manipulated: a whole moveslot devoted to risky behavior on the player's part (as opposed to coverage or support/setup). Any other use of the move is pretty much the opposite thing our concept is trying to achieve (I'm thinking Illusion + Final Gambit gimmicks here), in that the strategy surrounding Final Gambit actually poses very little risk for the same reward that an appropriate attacking move could offer, or a status move, which could simultaneously cripple the switch-in AND give Aurumoth at least another turn on the field. Illusion may help draw in particular Pokemon to take the unbelievably cheap surprise fixed-damage KO; I don't doubt that. What I do doubt is whether or not we want to encourage a strategy like that! I personally do not care one way or the other on Final Gambit; but I do however fail to see why it's being mentioned at all (If you really want to do Trick Room-->Final Gambit, Victini already does it just fine on its own, and Bronzong can do Trick Room-->Explosion to lesser effect). It's neither an official VGM nor a particularly good move to begin with. Do what you will, CAP.

WILL POST MORE damn real life distracting me from my full set of opinions

[bugmaniacbob]

To clarify I don't see anything wrong with Final Gambit so there's not much point disallowing it

On the other hand I'd rather people didn't waste their precious VGM slots on it, so... eh, I'll just leave it as a non-VGM. Better that way.

SPONTANEOUS CHANGE OF HEART

Not certain that there's anything else worth discussing. But if you do think of something, feel free to bring it up.

[Legend13]

I don't think there is much point to me posting this, but I don't see much point in Extremespeed. if CAP4 wanted to get the jump on priority users, it already has Sucker Punch (though it doesn't beat Extremespeed users). As has been said before, Extremespeed makes Weak Armor redundant, and is a rather "safe" option. Disallow Extremespeed.
As for Final Gambit, CAP4 doesn't have that much hp to put behind it. It's a rather pointless move against bulky pokemon, making it a higher risk than reward. Even then, it's normally used the first turn, so it's still pointless, as CAP4 can be doing much more damage without Final Gambit. Disallow Final Gambit.

EDIT: Sorry, guess it doesn't matter that much now since i posted this right after BMB.

[Trainer Yusuf]

On terms of allowing Fire-types on Aurumoth, I think it should be mentioned that seraphim has a strong connotation with fire, so at the very least there is the flavour relation. In addition to that, outside of signature moves of legendary Pokémon, Flame Wheel, Fire Punch and Flamethrower, all of the Fire-type moves have some form of inherent risk(or in the case of Flame Charge, a risky technique to utilise), but their power is generally high enough(especially under sun) or their utility in terms of coverage are hardly debatable, so I think they fit in with what we want, Overheat being the most obvious one. But yeah, outside of flavour and being potentially more efficent on Sun-teams(whose most abusers will kill CAP4) I don't have much strong counterarguments since our coverage is already sufficient enough.

I also give my support on Final Gambit, as 110 HP is still good enough to OHKO most of OU Pokémon, however, it will fail to do what it could most likely be used for due to existance of Sturdy and in Dugtrio's case Focus Sash; killing most of the common first-turn Stealth Rock set uppers. So I suggest that we throw it in, as it will most likely not see massive amounts of use anyways.

[Groudon ex]

I think Weather Ball is an interesting option for this CAPmon. In the appropriate weather it gives it a useful coverage option it can use to beat its usual checks, yet isn't overpowered at all and is dependant on you running weather in the first place.

[SuburbanPsycho]

The reason it kept getting deleted was that it had an opinion in regards to flavor moves about punches/kicks/tail attacks. Birkal told me I was allowed to post the four moves I suggested. This forum is really trying to drive away new people, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Fat Birkal

you are more than welcome to post the first half with competitive reasoning if you like.

Air Slash is a decent flying move and it has wings, so why not? - 75 Power Special Attack with Flinch Chance.
Silver Wind is again, a decent choice since it has wings and is a bug. 65 Power Special attack + STAB + Chance to raise all stats.
Cross Poison, again because it's a bug, and some bugs have venomous attributes, is a decently powerful move. 70 Power Physical Attack with high crit and chance to poison.
Horn Leech, since Megahorn is allowed, works as a decent power - health recovery move.

[Umbreons]

Originally Posted by Fat Legend13

I don't think there is much point to me posting this, but I don't see much point in Extremespeed. if CAP4 wanted to get the jump on priority users, it already has Sucker Punch (though it doesn't beat Extremespeed users). As has been said before, Extremespeed makes Weak Armor redundant, and is a rather "safe" option. Disallow Extremespeed.
As for Final Gambit, CAP4 doesn't have that much hp to put behind it. It's a rather pointless move against bulky pokemon, making it a higher risk than reward. Even then, it's normally used the first turn, so it's still pointless, as CAP4 can be doing much more damage without Final Gambit. Disallow Final Gambit.

EDIT: Sorry, guess it doesn't matter that much now since i posted this right after BMB.

Yeah, I agree with you. We should Disallow Extremespeed. But, we should try Quick-Attack because it's weaker than Extremespeed, but it still gives you a fair Priority move. With a base of 40, you will only run it if you are playing a non-choiced set, which means you lose the power of this pokemon, but you aren't locked into one move! ^_^

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat SuburbanPsycho

Air Slash is a decent flying move and it has wings, so why not? - 75 Power Special Attack with Flinch Chance.
Silver Wind is again, a decent choice since it has wings and is a bug. 65 Power Special attack + STAB + Chance to raise all stats.
Cross Poison, again because it's a bug, and some bugs have venomous attributes, is a decently powerful move. 70 Power Physical Attack with high crit and chance to poison.
Horn Leech, since Megahorn is allowed, works as a decent power - health recovery move.

Sorry, didn't mean for you to take that the wrong way.

Mainly I'm trying to disallow a) VGMs that are broken and b) VGMs that could potentially take up valuable slots within the limits of the overall movepool. For that reason, I don't want to allow any more VGMs than I have to. Air Slash and Cross Poison have nothing positive to add to the movepool, and some negatives (they take up space), therefore they are disqualified. I have, in the past, made clear my philosophy on positive vs. negatives with regard to moves and concept, and Air Slash and Cross Poison fall under that category.

Silver Wind isn't a VGM, so it's allowed anyway! These lists only deal with strong moves called VGMs. Silver Wind doesn't count.

As for Horn Leech, I don't want this thing to have a way to recover through a single turn, on principle. Even if it would never be used, it's still a move that has no purpose other than to counter the negative parts of a typing (ie. weakness to passive damage).

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Also, with regard to ExtremeSpeed, I'm not sure why people think it's a safe option at all. This isn't Dragonite, who has near-perfect coverage in a single attack. This isn't Lucario, who has near-perfect two-move coverage between Close Combat and Crunch. As I have said, a sweeper needs to have some sort of reliability - physical sets would never use Quick Attack or Sucker Punch, and I'm not even convinced they would use ExtremeSpeed either. A feature of Bug/Psychic and the coverage we have chosen is that there are a lot of Pokemon who resist any combination of two moves we have - ExtremeSpeed further adds to a horrific, risky case of 4MSS.

[TheMagicalCake]

ExtremeSpeed is a safe option because it beats all other priority. If you are using Weak Armor priority is a check to you. ExtremeSpeed takes some risk out of Weak Armor and the whole point of CAP4 is risk. ExtremeSpeed also takes risk out of other situations. If something out speeds you and your not sure if it will kill you, normally you would either have to risk it or switch out. With ExtremeSpeed you can just use that and get out of the situation entirely.

[capefeather]

Let's actually give the "ExtremeSpeed beats other priority" argument some context:

Choice Band Adamant ExtremeSpeed vs
248/0 Scizor: 19.82% - 23.32%
4/0 Mamoswine: 45.3% - 53.31%
4/0 Breloom: 62.59% - 73.66%

-1 0/0 CAP 4 hit by
Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch: 67.59% - 79.77%
Life Orb Adamant Mamoswine Ice Shard: 39.33% - 46.53%
Choice Band Adamant Breloom Mach Punch: 16.89% - 19.94%

I think we're fine on that front... Even in the Mamoswine situation, it would be better to use something else.

Also remember that ExtremeSpeed is not some kind of magical instant kill move. For example, Choice Band Dragonite needs prior damage to KO Latios with ExtremeSpeed. CAP 4 has less Attack than Dragonite does.

[nyttyn]

Extremespeed is actually very risky to throw onto CAP 4 and I'd only throw it on as an absolutely last resort. It doesn't get STAB from it, ghosts, rock, and steel types all guffaw at it, and it's 80 BP. While it beats out all other priority, it's still an absolutely last resort if you need more priority on your team since you're losing valuable coverage (something Aurumoth already suffers with thanks to its 94 speed practically mandating either a choice scarf set or some sort of speed boosting move if it wishes to sweep at all). Might be rehashing old arguments here, but Extremespeed by no means is an ideal use of a moveslot.

[bugmaniacbob]

So that's that I guess

Final change: Shadow Ball is no longer Required. You can follow the Type-Move requirement if you wish, but competitively there's little reason to force people to take on what is largely a useless move.

On to the next thread.