The CAP Kitchen: Non-Competitive Discussion Goes Here

[Darth Missingno.]

Just a minor correction: No Guard does NOT affect the accuracy of OHKO moves.

A lot of the moves they're considering on Aurumoth make no sense - I mean, Hammer Arm? How does it even do that?

[GRs Cousin]

Originally Posted by Fat bugmaniacbob

I very much doubt it. This thing will most likely have egg moves, pretty much. Which rules out legendaries as an option. Besides, pseudo-legendaries are only defined by the 600 BST - the immunity is an inconsequential observation (as in, they are not an official Nintendo class of Pokemon, they just happen to have a recurring BST - I would be more than willing to bet that the immunity is coincidence, and no more than them all being able to surpass 400 Attack (until Garchomp) or all having attacking stats of 130 or higher (until Hydreigon...)).

While it is true that being a pseudo-legendary isn't completely out of the question, let us look at Aurumoth again.

artwork

---

Ask yourself the following questions:
-Can I see this thing within the same status as all the other BST 600 Dragons?
-Could I imagine two pre-evolutions that would look good and not seem unnecessary?
-Compared to other Bug-types, does Aurumoth portray the sort of creature to have gender and reproduce?

If you were honestly hesitant about answering yes to any of those, it goes to show that clearly Aurumoth is above being just a regular Pokemon. Therefore, it definitely isn't out of the question to call this thing legendary and disallow egg moves at the expense of creating a larger level-up pool. That is where I propose that during the Pokedex Entry submission stage, in addition to including misc. flavor such as height, weight, and gender ratio, each submission must contain the listing of whether Aurumoth is legendary or not. An example submission looking as so:

Height: 5'4"
Weight: 70lbs. (BP 80 Low Kick / Grass Knot)
Gender Ratio: Genderless
Hidden Ability: Shield Dust
Legendary: Yes

This of course would mean that we'd do Dex submissions before movepool submissions so as to not conflict with egg moves and flavor, which isn't out of the question given that all steps in the CAP process must take place eventually regardless. We should all have the vote to decide whether this thing is legendary or not.

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat Delta Nite

I agree. I can't really see it as a pseudo-legendary. They tend to be big and brutal, whilst Aurumoth looks pretty deadly yet fragile. My favourite idea is to make it a Legendary.

And about that and what BMB said about egg moves, if the winner of the movepool stage were able to make it without any egg moves, and we were able to make Aurumoth Legendary, in which stage it would happen? I'm guessing the Pokédex entries Poll, but I'm not sure.

Have you looked at Dragonite? This thing is 10x as big and brutal as Dragonite. More to the point, this is going to be a pretty big Pokemon regardless, so I don't see why size is an issue.

Also, there's no official "this is a legendary" thing because that's immaterial flavour. At most I'd just ask in an offhanded way "do we want this to be a legendary" in the dex polls and then lay down an edict based on the answer, but I'll likely just ignore the issue entirely.

Originally Posted by Fat Darth Missingno.

Just a minor correction: No Guard does NOT affect the accuracy of OHKO moves.

It does, actually. See Hackmons.

A lot of the moves they're considering on Aurumoth make no sense - I mean, Hammer Arm? How does it even do that?

Hits it with its wing-shell things. Easy. Although I do agree that Hammer Arm doesn't provide the best flavour, even so.

Originally Posted by Fat GRs Cousin

Ask yourself the following questions:
-Can I see this thing within the same status as all the other BST 600 Dragons?

Yeah I can quite easily see it

Not sure I see the problem here

-Could I imagine two pre-evolutions that would look good and not seem unnecessary?

Cupramoth -> Argemoth -> Auramoth

2 wings -> 4 wings -> 6 wings

Or even Larva -> Chrysalis -> Imago in the vein of Tyranitar

Besides who doesn't love the idea of a fluffy little adorable pre-evo?

-Compared to other Bug-types, does Aurumoth portray the sort of creature to have gender and reproduce?

Uhh

Not entirely sure what the point of this question is since Metagross can't reproduce anyway and Hydreigon has three heads...

Anyway Aurumoth seems far more likely to reproduce than something like Pineco or Forretress, really. I have no hesitation about answering "yes" to this as well.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepidop...nd_development may be insightful. See the bit about tail touching vis-a-vis Aurumoth's glowing tail orb.

If you were honestly hesitant about answering yes to any of those, it goes to show that clearly Aurumoth is above being just a regular Pokemon. Therefore, it definitely isn't out of the question to call this thing legendary and disallow egg moves at the expense of creating a larger level-up pool. That is where I propose that during the Pokedex Entry submission stage, in addition to including misc. flavor such as height, weight, and gender ratio, each submission must contain the listing of whether Aurumoth is legendary or not.

I honestly don't see how any of the questions you posed even remotely support legendary status. Also technically I'm supposed to be laying down edicts vis-a-vis Genger, Height, Weight, and so on - which means we can make it as big as all other pseudo-legends and dual-gendered regardless. I certainly don't see the need for a poll to decide whether this should be classed as legendary or not (although I must admit that I was considering doing so for quite a long time).

Regardless, this is somewhat immaterial until movepool submissions. But to say at this stage that Aurumoth is far more legendary than pseudo-legendary is something I disagree with (though this is flavour, I can't say you're wrong because your reasoning is just as valid as mine, heh).

[GRs Cousin]

Originally Posted by Fat bugmaniacbob

Have you looked at Dragonite? This thing is 10x as big and brutal as Dragonite. More to the point, this is going to be a pretty big Pokemon regardless, so I don't see why size is an issue.

Dragonite is 7'02"... And you're saying it's going to be bigger than that? With all due respect bmb, I'm all for more badass bugs, but what reasoning do you have to say this thing is a complete Mothra the instant we voted for it? Surely there are others that see this thing closer in size to Venomoth or at the very most Volcarona.

Originally Posted by Fat bugmaniacbob

Not entirely sure what the point of this question is since Metagross can't reproduce anyway and Hydreigon has three heads...

Regardless of size and this, Aurumoth doesn't have the same overall theme as the Pseudo-Legendaries. Our exception, Metagross, is distinctively supposed to be a super-computer and therefore its genderlessness would be a complete given. Aurumoth on the other hand is clearly organic and therefore would be outright breaking the theme of Pseudo-Legendaries should it be included as one, neither matching the standard nor the exception, becoming a double-exception itself. I feel it'd be best if we can not break too many "general guidelines of flavor" in regards to the things we create, what we call Pseudo-Legendary being one of them.

Additionally, Aurumoth reaches an uncanny valley if given gender, as it's clearly more organic than it is artificial, yet it lacks the distinctive characterization that almost all breedable Pokemon have. Does Heatran having gender not seem just off? Does it not seem unflavorful that mystique creatures like Sigilyph can reproduce? While it's technically allowed, it just doesn't make a lot of flavor sense. If we absolutely needed a Bug-type that could breed, we would have gone with a different artwork that looked more natural and fertile than a Raymanian-limbed, otherworldly-looking moth spirit. It's saying something when literal spirits fill gender roles more easily than said moth spirit.

Originally Posted by Fat bugmaniacbob

I honestly don't see how any of the questions you posed even remotely support legendary status.

They were mainly points towards how Aurumoth doesn't appear to be a conventional Pokemon nor close enough in flavor to be a Pseudo-Legendary. Its BST and appearance alone would dictate that it would at the very least have the same role as Rotom in Diamond/Pearl. "Not the only one of its kind, but the only one you'll ever see" form of unique uncommon mon. The same title could apply to Pokemon like Heatran, another Pokemon implied in canon to have multiple exist, the difference being that it's labelled with full Legendary status so as to lessen the complications of describing it. I merely just believe that Aurumoth is more of a Heatran than it is a Rotom, let alone a Garchomp.

Originally Posted by Fat bugmaniacbob

Regardless, this is somewhat immaterial until movepool submissions. But to say at this stage that Aurumoth is far more legendary than pseudo-legendary is something I disagree with (though this is flavour, I can't say you're wrong because your reasoning is just as valid as mine, heh).

I suppose my main point in all this is that while we have opposing (though validly equal) viewpoints on Aurumoth, we should at least have the option to decide through majority whether this thing is to be legendary or not, as it's clear that not everyone agrees that Aurumoth should be a Pseudo-Legendary. We don't need a brand new poll to decide this. All we need is either the ammending of the Legendary category in Dex entries, or a split third option of "No pre-evolutions, nonlegendary" and "No pre-evolutions, legendary" in the pre-evolution poll. They're simple solutions that really wouldn't hinder the CAP process whatsoever, only improve on flavor and give more of a choice to the community of what Aurumoth is to us. After all, if everyone does want it to be a Pseudo-legendary like you, they'd simply vote for that in the poll. You'd have nothing to be concerned about regarding the likelihood of its Pseudo-Legendary status if others actually do share the same perspective as you.

[CiteAndPrune]

Aurumoth being legendary or pseudo-legendary wouldn't be that bad, given we've already given the 600 BST.

But regardless, I should think that having the option of deciding that via community consensus would be better than just declaring one way or the other. I'd rather see a separate poll made just for this, myself, and not loading it into the Dex entries (as this SHOULD be reflected in its movepoll, really). The CAP project doesn't run on a deadline that we should complete it in X many days, so a 24 poll deciding legendary status won't throw us terribly out of order

[akela]

The way you are describing Aurumoth, BMB, it would be as large as Scolipede. The 8 foot long 440 pound Scolipede. Only, Aurumoth wouldn't be length. Judging by its artwork, its proportions would be similar to Kyogre, just a little smaller.

In regards to making Aurumoth a pseudo-legendary pokemon, I have no issue with it. I almost encourage it. I do believe it should have pre-evolution(s).

When it comes to submitting pokedex entries, I disagree with the notion that the dex submitter should denote the legendary status of the pokemon. The pokemon's classification, should it ever reach that point, should be decided separately, rather than shoehorned onto a dex entry like US congress loves to do.

[KoA]

I really don't see Aurumoth reaching huge sizes, tbh. You should know of all people bmb how difficult it is for bugs to reach huge sizes and the amount of oxygen required to do so to sustain large insects!

I did intend for it to have some way to support pre-evos, both one and two stages. As far as legendary status, I see this as more like a Rotom/ Volcarona sorta dealie.

[ThePhalanx]

Originally Posted by Fat Darth Missingno.

A lot of the moves they're considering on Aurumoth make no sense - I mean, Hammer Arm? How does it even do that?

Hi Jump Kick is a suggestion as well. Once that makes no sense, but I'm not gonna rant about it on that thread. Just think people, that even GF makes it's pokemon's movesets make sense in the vast majority of cases (Gen 1 excluded - surfing rhydon/flying pikachu lol).

Now as far as legendary/pseudo-legendary status, I'm with making it like Volcarona. It COULD be a legendary, but I'm all for copper/silver fuzzy caterpillar prevos. As for breeding, the link that bmb posted makes a good point. Especially with the glowing tail.

Oh, and

Originally Posted by Fat akela

The way you are describing Aurumoth, BMB, it would be as large as Scolipede. The 8 foot long 440 pound Scolipede. Only, Aurumoth wouldn't be length. Judging by its artwork, its proportions would be similar to Kyogre, just a little smaller.

This design doesn't scream 'whale sized' at all. If it had been Yilx's design then maybe, but KoA's doesn't (though if you wanted it to seem that way, KoA, then feel free to correct me).

[bugmaniacbob]

As much as I'd love to keep posting here I don't have the time at present so just going to say um...

I never intended it to be a colossal moth thing, only similar in size to other pseudo-legendaries. Preferably slightly shorter than Dragonite but bigger than the rest. 6'11" is ideal. The point I was making was that as something of apparently (I say "apparently" because I'm basing this on the way it looks) divine origin, it should at least be big, or big enough to merit 110 HP and 99 Def.

EDIT: Also RE: "Conventional Pokemon", the pseudo-legendaries are hardly conventional either. The difference between legendary and pseudo-legendary is literally only a) ability to breed and b) possibly alternative sprite sheets, if gender changes are implemented. I don't see how anybody can not see this as having different genders and being able to breed - after all, Sigilyph can do it. It makes perfect flavour sense for it to breed, really.

Tbh it makes little difference whether or not CAP4 is legendary or pseudo-legendary, but pseudo-legendary is the only one that doesn't constrain movepools at all. Therefore it is the ideal default choice, really. Plus prevos make everything better.

[jas61292]

Personally I would love to see this guy as a "pseudo-legend", but I use that term loosely as there really is no true definition of it. I mean, lets look at how "pseudo-legends" were defined over the generations.

GenI: Dragonite
GenII: 600 BST, 134 Attack as highest stat, Reptilian origin, two prevos, gender.
GenIII: 600 BST, 134 or higher attack as highest stat, two prevos.
GenIV: 600 BST, 130 or higher attack as highest stat, two prevos.
GenV: 600 BST, one stat of 125 or higher, two prevos.

Now obviously, even with that most general definition, Aurumoth still doesn't fit in, but these definitions get more and more general each time a new one is added. The only two factors that have never changed are the BST and two prevos, and we already achieve one of them. I wouldn't say it is a stretch to make it "pseudo-legend" at all, seeing as all that even means is giving it two prevos.

Legend on the other hand is a definitive status recognized by Game Freak, Nintendo, TPCi, and whoever else you care about. It has a much stricter (if simpler) definition too, being: No evolutionary relatives, can't breed, has "legendary" status in world (meaning there are actual legends regarding it), and that's about it.

Now, obviously both of these are easily achievable, but I have a feeling that the competitive aspects of this project will necessitate an egg movepool which would pretty much disqualify it from legendary status. While, as I said, "pseudo-legend" is an ill-defined fan made term that we can easily interpret however we want, in game precedent suggests two prevos, and that would be personally what I would like to see.

And I mean, really, which would be a worse flavor faux pas: making it a "pseudo-legend" that isn't big or giving it level up Close Combat and Hydro Pump and the like to make sure it has no egg moves so it can be a legend?

[Nyktos]

IMO the definition of a pseudo-legendary should just be a non-legendary with a BST typical for legendaries (i.e. 580+). Everything else (three prevos, BST exactly 600, 125+ in a stat) is just a pattern that existing ones "happen" to fit. Since Aurumoth fits the basic definition it makes flavour sense to continue those patterns where possible, but as far as I'm concerned, Aurumoth is already pseudo-legendary (assuming it's not actually legendary).

[capefeather]

I don't think that going off of Arceus's movepool is a good idea or even one that makes much sense. Arceus's mythology origins are completely different from the whole angel deal we have going with Aurumoth. Additionally, all of the cover legendaries are essentially deities as well. It's just that Arceus is "the creator" (or something... insert Mew mention here). If anything, I'd look through Deoxys's movepool and possibly Lugia's movepool, if we're doing that whole Psycho Boost thing.

I'd also like to share a little tidbit here that no Gen V Pokémon learns ExtremeSpeed. Weird, I know.

[Temperantia]

I know I can't be the only one who wants to see a Caterpie/Weedle-esque evolution line (Little weak larva/worm-cocoon-flying insect) that actually is really awesome. Admittedly, it would (hopefully) not have the same movepool restrictions (namely just the lack of egg moves) as those two, but I'd like to Aurumoth evolve from a weak cute wittle larva. :3

[Nyktos]

Tyranitar and Salamence give precedent for that sort of thing in a pseudo-legendary, too.

[CiteAndPrune]

And Metagross (though that's the exceptional one) gives precedent through Beldum to having no egg moves / barren level up movepoll on the first stage if we go with a little bug evolution. We could take lessons from Metagross in how it's done.

Something else hit me, and this is a flavor concern - do we specify Tutor moves within the movepoll limits as well? All those brought by B2/W2 (since Aurumoth is first CAP to be made for that metagame)? If yes, then couldn't those substitute for Egg moves to a large extent (and without nasty illegalities since they really operate more like extra level up slots) and work out even if Aurumoth is a stage 2 but the larva can't bring along egg moves? Something to think about, I guess....

EDIT: Aurumon, Aurumoth... those names are too close together.

And I did not mean any Tutors that are not in the game, definitely. I just wondered if the Tutor moves must fit in the overall VGM limits for movepoll makers, when in the case of other CAPs any applicable Tutors couldn't be added, because, well, they weren't there yet. So the idea was if between the moves available via Tutor and others ending up in TM and Level Up, one would even need to add anything to the Egg moves at all. But in that case, Level Up/TM/Tutor has no illegal move combinations whatsoever, as even the Event Psycho Boost does not clash with anything.

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat CiteAndPrune

Something else hit me, and this is a flavor concern - do we specify Tutor moves within the movepoll limits as well? All those brought by B2/W2 (since Aurumon is first CAP to be made for that metagame)? If yes, then couldn't those substitute for Egg moves to a large extent (and without nasty illegalities since they really operate more like extra level up slots) and work out even if Aurumon is a stage 2 but the larva can't bring along egg moves? Something to think about, I guess....

I have no idea what you're asking, so I'll give a generic response:

Yes, you will need to specify any and all tutor moves from BW2. No, these don't replace Egg moves (I have no idea what this means? It sounds like you're asking if we can pretend that tutors for certain moves exist in the game when they don't, which would be strictly illegal. I'm not certain what you are actually asking though).

Also, why are you calling it Aurumon?

EDIT: Ok, I think I understand now. Yes, it's a given that you will have to fit all VGM tutor moves within the VGM limits - realistically for the earlier CAPs we should have tightened the limits, but alas, what's done is done, as they say. I imagine you will want to add particular moves to Egg moves because a) flavour (eg. why would it get, say, Hydro Pump by level up?) or b) to not overexpand the level-up lists (seriously, you might need at least 20 slots for level-up if you don't include egg moves...)

[SuburbanPsycho]

"Flavor" opinions aren't allowed in the other thread, and I'm doubting any post here will be taken into consideration for the attacking moves, but here it is anyway:

Any Punch, Kick, or Tail move should be disallowed from this pokemon. It has no arms, hands, legs, feet, or tail. In most cases, Pokemon are given moves which logically work for them. The very few rare cases such as Wooper shouldn't be a fall-back argument that means every new pokemon should be allowed to have moves that don't logically make sense.

[Nyktos]

The goal of the project is to create a Pokémon to fit into OU. People do take into account flavour when putting together actual movepool submissions but it's always secondary to competitive logic.

It often bothers me and I try to avoid doing things like giving Pokémon without arms punches, but when push comes to shove if it's necessary in order for the Pokémon to be competitive then it's necessary, period.

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat SuburbanPsycho

"Flavor" opinions aren't allowed in the other thread, and I'm doubting any post here will be taken into consideration for the attacking moves, but here it is anyway:

Any Punch, Kick, or Tail move should be disallowed from this pokemon. It has no arms, hands, legs, feet, or tail. In most cases, Pokemon are given moves which logically work for them. The very few rare cases such as Wooper shouldn't be a fall-back argument that means every new pokemon should be allowed to have moves that don't logically make sense.

Well, I would agree that in general, arm- and leg-based moves should be discounted. That means flavour-wise, Hammer Arm, Hi Jump Kick, etc would be very silly to put on one's final movepool, but I don't think anybody would actually put them on their movepool.

This is not the case for all Fighting-type attacks, however. Take Close Combat for example:

Originally Posted by Fat CC's BW description

The user fights the target up close without guarding itself. It also cuts the user's Defense and Sp. Def.

Fights up close without guarding itself? Sounds like a shoe-in on a Pokemon with No Guard, in my opinion. Remember also that Close Combat is NOT a punching attack - the in-game animation only makes it look that way, rather like in all those old Adam West Batman episodes where whenever they punched someone a comic-book style "BLAM" or "WHACK" would pop up on the screen. We know it isn't a punching attack, because it isn't boosted by the ability Iron Fist (which boosts all punch attacks by 20%).

I mean, Keldeo learns Close Combat, and it's only got little hooves. Superpower and Cross Chop are similar - Cross Chop is just chopping with its wings, and Superpower is just ramming the opponent at full force. And those are the most important Fighting-type moves - all the other moves are a lot less good.

As for the tail though, I must disagree. While insects do not strictly speaking have tails in the same way mammals do, they do have abdomens - and we can quite see the abdomen on Aurumoth. In this case abdomens and tails are more or less interchangeable - I mean, if Aurumoth learns Tail Glow, it must have a tail somewhere! In this case, using a move like Aqua Tail certainly isn't out of the question.

Also, sorry if I came off as harsh when I deleted that last post of yours, it's just that the movepool stage is a bit tough on the Topic Leader to keep together, and your post still had a bit of flavour about it, and you mentioned some moves that didn't need mentioning. Welcome to CAP, by the way - we don't always bite. Really.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot - since Seraphs are traditionally associated with Fire, it would be nice to see some Fire-based non-VGMs in the level-up movepool, such as Ember, or even Overheat, since that's allowed.

[Camisado]

Any VGM that doesn't look like CAP 4 could normally use can just be renamed. I don't understand why we're fixating on that aspect of it.

[Nyktos]

Originally Posted by Fat Camisado

Any VGM that doesn't look like CAP 4 could normally use can just be renamed. I don't understand why we're fixating on that aspect of it.

If nothing else because that's never actually been done.

Besides, if we rename a move we essentially require it be a level-up move as we can't create new TMs or move tutors nor give it to other Pokémon so it can be an egg move.

[capefeather]

Weirdly enough, the only Pokémon with No Guard and Close Combat is the Machamp line, which gets STAB on it. Pinsir gets non-STAB Close Combat, though.

[CiteAndPrune]

Before we get into the movepolls proper... I have one concern that is really flavor-centered so I thought I'd raise it here.

The poll about whether or not CAPs have pre-evos is usually conducted after the movepoll stage; however, it's encouraged to structure the movepoll in all aspects as those of other actual Pokemon are made. But depending on whether a Pokemon has former evolutions, and how evolution is achieved, is reflected in the final movepoll.

With all that, what I was wondering about is - can the movepoll submitters make the decision on their own, structuring their movepolls as they personally see the matter of pre-evolutions, and thus affecting the outcome of the pre-evo poll later with the movepolls providing a point of reference? Or are submitters discouraged from that and should strive to make a movepoll as neutral as possible, that could go with either a non-evolving or final evolution Pokemon?

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat CiteAndPrune

With all that, what I was wondering about is - can the movepool submitters make the decision on their own, structuring their movepools as they personally see the matter of pre-evolutions, and thus affecting the outcome of the pre-evo poll later with the movepools providing a point of reference? Or are submitters discouraged from that and should strive to make a movepool as neutral as possible, that could go with either a non-evolving or final evolution Pokemon?

It's not written anywhere that you can't influence the pre-evo vote through your movepool, but it's heavily frowned upon. Mainly because it encourages people to vote for the movepool they want based on flavour rather than, well, the inherent strengths of the movepool. So yes, I would very much encourage people to not attempt to add pre-evolution only moves or anything along those lines.

[Darkhuaza517]

Originally Posted by Fat Espeon65

I would love to see a psychic type as it is one of my favorite types and there hasn't been a CAP that is psychic. I would personally love to see a Psychic/Dragon type Pokemon. I think that would be pretty bad ass... And sorry normal, you haven't been represented yet, but you might have to wait a little.

Latios and Latias are your Dragon/Psychic-type Pokémon.