The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

[Tobes]

Hey we decided to do one of these for Ubers as well. Just to be clear, these lists are not meant to assist teambuilding. They are meant simply to give new players a general idea of where things fit in the metagame.

We're now accepting write-ups for each Pokemon, explaining its role and why it is where it is.

Originally Posted by Fat Guidelines from Flareblitz (some amendments)

..okay. Since it's apparent that everyone will want their "favorites" moved up until nothing exists in any rank below C, I'm going to try to introduce some objectivity into these proceedings.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who perform specific niches and can be effective given the right support, but either are incapable of performing well outside of that niche or are heavily dependent on that support.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are simply not very effective in the current metagame.

E Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are aggressively mediocre. The worst of the worst.

Originally Posted by Fat PKGaming

Rules
~Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
~No flaming
~Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
~No talk about editing the OFFICIAL smogon tier lists.

S Rank

• (Arceus-Ghost)
  
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  Boasting perfect coverage and ridiculous versatility, Arceus-Ghost is a threat that every team needs to prepare for. Its potency is only compounded by its ability to spinblock, allowing it to switch in on opponents like Forretress and Excadrill and gain momentum while preventing a spin. That said, Arceus-Ghost's real power comes in its versatility; this is why it's so hard to counter. Defensive counters to the common Calm Mind set are often massacred by a Swords Dance set, and vice versa. Even more offensive checks to certain offensive sets, like Tyranitar, are destroyed by a defensive set, smacking an unsuspecting opponent with Will-O-Wisp and effectively neutering them for the rest of the match.
• (Arceus-Normal)
  
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  Arceus-Normal is a force to be reckoned with. With high stats of 120 across the board along with a diverse movepool, Arceus-Normal is a powerful, metagame-defining Pokemon. Its most well-known set is known as Extremekiller; with 120 Attack, Swords Dance, and STAB priority in ExtremeSpeed, Arceus can single-handedly decimate whole teams without a worry of being revenge killed. In fact, Pokemon gain niches in Ubers simply for being able to resist ExtremeSpeed and outpace Arceus. Its excellent coverage options complement its sweeping prowess. Arceus can also serve as a powerful physical wall who can take repeated onslaughts from many Pokemon.
• (Kyogre)
  
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  The undisputed king of Ubers. Kyogre's stats, movepool, and ability all make it a very influential Pokemon. Rain heavily influences the metagame, making Steel-types harder to kill, causing Thunder to be everywhere, enabling niche Pokemon such as Swift Swimmers, and empowering Kyogre's absurd Water Spout. Kyogre can act as a potent wallbreaker with a Choice Specs set; Water Spout can OHKO or 2HKO a great number of Pokemon (even resists), and many stall teams will use Pokemon specifically to handle Choice Specs Kyogre. Kyogre can also act as a capable revenge killer and cleaner with a Choice Scarf set. Answers to one Kyogre set might not stack up well against other Kyogre sets, and every team needs answers to both Scarf and Specs. Kyogre is versatile and can still fill other roles as well, such as a paralysis lure or a bulky RestTalk set.

A Rank

• (Arceus-Fighting)
• (Arceus-Grass)
• (Arceus-Steel)
• (Darkrai)
• (Deoxys-S)
  
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  Deoxys-S, armed with an excellent movepool and a blistering Speed stat, is an ideal lead for offensive teams seeking to quickly establish entry hazard support and then make use of offensive pressure to win the match. However, Deoxys-S's fairly disappointing defenses and lack of offensive presence mean that it works best as a suicide lead (as any decently powerful move will knock it to its Focus Sash). Access to Stealth Rock and Spikes combined with its unrivaled speed tier mean Deoxys-S will often ensure that the opponent's Pokemon will pay dearly for every switch. Furthermore, a plethora of support options, including Magic Coat, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick and Fire Punch allow it to get past some of its conventional checks/counters, such as Forretress and set-up sweepers. Though running Deoxys-S often means that the user will essentially begin each match down 5-6, this should not discourage players from using Deoxys-S, as despite its faults, it has the ability to reliably fulfill its role (clutter the battlefield with shit), and if the hazards do their job, they will usually more than make up for the deficit.
• (Dialga)
• (Ferrothorn)
• (Genesect)
  
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  Arguably the best scarfer in the Ubers tier, Genesect sees use on both offensive and defensive teams. With Download, Genesect's U-Turn packs a punch; offensive teams appreciate the instant momentum and pressure that Genesect provides. Likewise, Iron Head and Ice Beam enable Genesect to quickly switch from revenge killing to cleaning. Genesect's typing allows it to switch in on attacks from Mewtwo, Arceus-Grass, Kyurem-W, Darkai, and others and deliver a powerful blow with U-Turn or one of its coverage moves. It also allows to be one of the only Pokemon consistently able to revenge kill both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance Rayquaza.
• (Giratina)
  
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  Access to a Ghost-typing, dual base 120 Defenses, a gigantic base 150 HP stat combined with valuable resistances to Water-, Fire-, Electric-, and Grass-type moves makes Giratina the bulkiest spin blocker in the game! This allows it to run both a physically defensive set that can wall Ho-Oh lacking Life Orb and specially defensive spread that allows it to become one of the few Pokemon that can absorb Kyogre's Rain and Choice Specs boosted Water Spout! Its walling capabilities ensure that no team is disappointed with its performance. It can even take advantage of its enormous bulk to run a decent Calm Mind set and try to sweep. What's keeping it from reaching S rank though? The answer is simple; it can't hurt anything. Twin base 100 offenses are nothing pretty to glance at, and by completely investing in defensive, it becomes hard for Giratina-a to defeat its foes. The only way for Giratina-a to really kill anything, is if a lot of hazards are present, only then will it be able to spam Dragon Tail or Roar and weaken a team. This gives it problems against Rapid Spin users like Forretress and Tentacruel, as they can just setup entry hazards in front of Giratina as they know it can't do anything to them but use Dragon Tail or burn them. To add to the pain, Giratina lacks reliable recovery outside of Rest, and its Dragon-typing makes it weak to the common Draco Meteors and Ice Beams that fly around in the tier, which takes a toll on its bulk. This isn't enough to stop Giratina though. Its one of the few users of Resttalk in Ubers as it can actually survive most of the time to wake up and use Rest again. Its Specially Defensive spread is strong enough to tank even a super effective Draco Meteor from most Dragons in the tier should it not be boosted by Life Orb! There is no wall that can tank hits like Giratina, and if there is they lack the Ghost-typing that prevents Rapid Spin.
• (Giratina-O)
• (Groudon)
  
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  As the sun-bringing behemoth it is, Groudon has a lot to live up to in the Ubers metagame. No worries, because Groudon is easily one of the most reliable Pokémon in the game; it will certainly not dissapoint. Its ability Drought fuels a whole spectra of teams, making monster such as Reshiram and Ho-oh almost impossible to switch in to, as well as weakening Kyogre's Water STAB. Common sets include the defensive support set, which is a reliable way to phaze out the dreaded ExtremeKiller Arceus at least once per game, and has the added benefit of having the invaluable move Stealth Rock by default. There is more, however. As Groudon has the strongest Earthquake in the game, it can deal tremendous damage with offensive sets utilizing Swords Dance, Rock Polish, or both.
• (Ho-Oh)
• (Kyurem-W)
• (Latias)
  
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  Say hello to what is hands down one of the best Kyogre answers in the game. With Soul Dew granting her great special bulk and special attack, along with high Speed and Levitate, Latias makes for a great offensive pivot. She can use her good special movepool to its fullest effect, with moves such as Draco Meteor, Thunder, and Grass Knot in order to blast holes into opposing teams, using her bulk to stand out from her brother Latios. Latias can even take the more defensive approach and utilize Calm Mind in a defensive manner, with great special bulk and power giving her the ability to tank a myriad of special attacks. While her weaknesses to Ice, Dragon, Dark, Bug, and Ghost and middling physical bulk are a pain, Latias is still a top threat in Ubers.
• (Mewtwo)
• (Palkia)
• (Rayquaza)

B Rank

• (Arceus-Dark)
• (Arceus-Dragon)
• (Arceus-Ground)
• (Arceus-Rock)
• (Arceus-Water)
• (Blaziken)
• (Chansey)
• (Deoxys-A)
• (Excadrill)
• (Forretress)
• (Garchomp)
• (Gliscor)
• (Hippowdon)
• (Jirachi)
• (Kabutops)
• (Kingdra)
• (Landorus-T)
• (Latios)
• (Lugia)
• (Shaymin-S)
• (Skarmory)
• (Tentacruel)
• (Terrakion)
• (Tyranitar)
• (Zekrom)

C Rank

• (Arceus-Electric)
• (Arceus-Fire)
• (Arceus-Flying)
• (Arceus-Ice)
• (Arceus-Poison)
• (Bisharp)
  
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  Besides the fact that Bisharp looks like a total badass, it does have a trick going for it in the trenches of Ubers. With a relatively strong 125 Attack, Swords Dance, and STAB priority Sucker Punch, Bisharp can make for a force to be reckoned with. Dark STAB is quite good, and with a Steel typing granting it many resistances, it can grab numerous opportunities to set up. It also has Low Kick to dent Steel-types, which is a plus. But as it is, Bisharp is painfully slow, and when combined with how incredibly unreliable Sucker Punch is, some faster opponents can really be an annoyance and take advantage of its presence. A nasty 4x weakness to Fighting does not help its case, and Pokemon such as Arceus-Fighting and Terrakion can take advantage of that.
• (Blissey)
• (Cloyster)
• (Deoxys-D)
• (Ditto)
• (Froslass)
• (Gorebyss)
• (Heatran)
• (Hydreigon)
• (Jynx)
• (Kyurem-B)
• (Landorus)
• (Ludicolo)
• (Mamoswine)
• (Manaphy)
• (Metagross)
• (Omastar)
  
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  Omastar is a very dangerous Pokemon in Ubers, thanks to its powerful ability Swift Swim. A Modest Omastar can outrun and OHKO Mewtwo and Darkrai with Surf or Hydro Pump, and Shaymin-S with Ice Beam. Its Rock typing also allows it to win one on one with ExtremeKiller Arceus so long as rain is up. Shell Smash gives Omastar a way to double its Special Attack and Speed. If it gets off a smash in the rain and Omastar has hazard support, it can sweep entire teams. However, getting off a Smash is not always easy, as it usually needs to come in on a choice-locked Ice Beam or Fire Blast. Bluffing a revenge kill is also an option, though this requires the opponent to switch out, which will not always happen. Its mediocre typing gives it undesirable weaknesses to Electric, Fighting, Grass, and Ground type moves, making it easy to kill Omastar if you can get a hit on it. Finally, though Omastar isn't useless in sand due to the special defense boost it gets there, it really needs rain to be up to pose a significant threat. All in all, Omastar can be devastating if you are good at predicting.
• (Qwilfish)
• (Reshiram)
• (Salamence)
  
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  One might initially question the use of Salamence in Ubers due to his relatively subpar offensive stats compared to the many other Dragons lurking about in the tier. Despite this, he has a few tricks up his wings to give him a chance in Ubers. For one, he has a solid speed tier of 100, outspeeding all those base 90s, 95s, and Genesect, as well as speed tying with Palkia. Most importantly though, Dream World blessed him with an incredible ability in Moxie. This makes him a vicious Choice Scarf user, as every kill he gets will only make him stronger making him tough to stop. He also can try his hand at a Dragon Dance set, making use of Intimidate to give him more opportunities to set up. Unfortunately, Salamence still has his rather subpar offensive stats. As such, He can't use a mixed set some other Ubers Dragons can, giving him issues with breaking through physically bulky Pokemon without a boost. He also faces big competition with other Dragons such as Palkia as a Choice Scarfer and Rayquaza as a Dragon Dance user. Still, Salamence can still prove to be a worthy asset to a team should he be used to his advantages. Salamence has also been specifically used as a partner to Rayquaza, with one loosening up the other's checks and counters.
• (Scizor)
• (Shiftry)
• (Smeargle)
• (Thundurus)
• (Thundurus-T)
• (Tornadus)
• (Tornadus-T)
• (Victini)
• (Wobbuffet)
• (Xatu)

D Rank

• (Abomasnow)
• (Arceus-Bug)
• (Arceus-Psychic)
• (Deoxys)
  
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  Outclassed is the perfect word to describe Deoxys. While it has good offensive stats comparable to Rayquaza, Deoxys-A is a better pokemon to use offensively, as it has better offensive stats and the loss of bulk doesn't matter. Deoxys-S does the whole entry hazards thing better due to it's higher speed and better defenses. Deoxys's only real niche is as an offensive dual screener set.
• (Dugtrio)
• (Espeon)
• (Gastrodon)
• (Jumpluff)
• (Lucario)
• (Venusaur)

E Rank

• (Charizard)
  
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  To put it bluntly, Charizard is a shitty Pokemon in Ubers. While I know it may be your favorite starter and all, Charizard has simply too many flaws to be of any use in Ubers. Being a Fire-type in a metagame infested with Kyogre is not good; and it is not going to be able to do much damage to the king of Ubers. Charizard also has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, and combined with the residual damage from Solar Power, it is simply too easy to wear down. Charizard is also sorely outclassed by Reshiram and Ho-Oh, both of who have legitimate ways to damage Kyogre and qualities to mitigate that Stealth Rock weakness. Always consider your other options before using Charizard. There are many.
• (Shedinja)

[alexwolf]

You missed Deoxys-S.

[Tobes]

urg right

Deoxys-S is A-tier and Deoxys-A is B-tier, atm

[alexwolf]

Tbh i would go as far as to say that Deoxys-N is F rank material. Exactly as Charizard and Shedinja he is a completely useless poke, because he is completely outclassed by Deo-S and Deo-A. We may have given it an analysis, because what the hell it needs one, but i have never ever seen one good player use this.

[shrang]

You can't actually be serious that Deoxys-N belongs in the same pile of trash that Charizard belongs in. Sure, it doesn't have a niche because it's completely outclassed by Deo-S and Deo-A, but at least it's not completely and utterly unusable like Charizard is.

[Focus]

There are several pokemon that have Ubers analyses that are not on this list. They are Bronzong, Cresselia, Dugtrio, Heracross, Hippowdon, Gastrodon, Incarnate Landorus, Ludicolo, Magnezone, Mew, Omastar, Qwilfish, and Whimsicott (hope that's all of them). And every last one of them probably deserves to be at least rank C or D imo.

I'm also a bit curious why Therian Landorus was put in rank B. I have only seen it a couple of times, and it hardly did anything from what I remember.

Edit: Bronzong too, lol

[Rayquaza_]

Blaziken shouldn't be B rank.
It heavily suffers from 4 MSS because it either loses one of its vital moves or gets walled by Giratina (if it doesn't have Shadow Claw) as well as Lugia in the rain, can't do a damn to Swift Swim teams, dies to ES and priority in general, is very vulnerable to residual damage from entry hazards and recoil, it's practically required to run Protect AND Swords Dance in ubers all the time giving the opponent time to come in and phaze it before it can do any damage and it automatically loses to Rayquaza.

If much more deadly and safer offensive pokemon like Reshiram (who can sweep much more easily with Tailwind and has a better STAB combo), Thundurus (Agility/Nasty Plot), Scizor(Priority) and Mamoswine(Priority, better STABs) are C rank, there is no reason Blaziken should be higher than them.

I'm voting for C rank. It's good in sun teams for late-game sweeping after you get rid of the opposing weather inducers, but that's about it.

Also, Blissey shouldn't be lower than Chansey.
101 subs and residual damage are extremely common in ubers, turning Chansey into the ultimate setup bait for a variety of pokemon. Its higher physical defense is meaningless since physical attackers in ubers will OHKO or 2HKO her anyway, while the higher special defense barely makes a difference most of the time, since lack of Leftovers recovery will still push her into 2HKO range from things like Reshiram's Blue Flare and Kyurem-W's Focus Blast after residual damage.
At least Blissey can actually do something in return with her barely usable special attack and ability to hit common weaknesses (fire, ice and electric) and Leftovers recovery means that she doesn't have to waste turns to heal herself against things such as Tentacruel and Lugia.
Chansey should be rank C as well.

[Hemp Man]

No Gyarados on trickroom's behalf? C'mon, he could at least get E rank.

[Mr.lol]

humongous post and response to Rayquaza, open if you dare !_!

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Blaziken shouldn't be B rank.
It heavily suffers from 4 MSS because it either loses one of its vital moves or gets walled by Giratina (if it doesn't have Shadow Claw) as well as Lugia in the rain, can't do a damn to Swift Swim teams, dies to ES and priority in general, is very vulnerable to residual damage from entry hazards and recoil, it's practically required to run Protect AND Swords Dance in ubers all the time giving the opponent time to come in and phaze it before it can do any damage and it automatically loses to Rayquaza.

Eh... he OHKOes Lugia after rocks with +2 Flare Blitz, he can waltz around his #1 counter, Giratina-a, with Roar if needed (albiet it does become a LOT more harder to setup with him then). Have you calced it against Rayquaza lol...

Jolly Life Orb +2 Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. Standard Rayquaza running 0/0 with neutral defense -> (81.19 - 95.44%), guranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock.

If much more deadly and safer offensive pokemon like Reshiram (who can sweep much more easily with Tailwind and has a better STAB combo), Thundurus (Agility/Nasty Plot), Scizor(Priority) and Mamoswine(Priority, better STABs) are C rank, there is no reason Blaziken should be higher than them.

Reshiram, like Blaziken, is screwed by the presence of Rain. However, unlike Blaziken, it fails to touch Kyogre running a Sp Def spread (Blaziken actually OHKOes Physically Defensive Kyogre x_x). It additionally also has counters in Chansey. Regardless of its moveset, it cannot bypass Chansey. Have you ever swept with a Thundurus? I cannot recall the last time I saw Nasty Plot Thundurus used successfully (I will admit I DID use Agility Thundurus-T successfully to a decent extent though). Thundurus-T's main niche is killing something off and paralyzing the revenge killer with prankster Thunder Wave. Scizor and Mamoswine are not only rarely seen but can easily be revenged. They CANNOT sweep for that reason. I am aware that they have their own niche (Mamo = epic stealth rock user, Scizor = :D for Pursuit + Wobba, but simply put they are not sweeping a team unless you imply extremely harsh win conditions like the whole team is extremely low on health, but in that case Blaziken could do the same. It needs less support anyway to pull off a sweep. That and Thundurus-T, Mamoswine, and Reshiram are Stealth Rock weak while Blaziken retains a neutrality.

I'm voting for C rank. It's good in sun teams for late-game sweeping after you get rid of the opposing weather inducers, but that's about it.

All weather inducers, regardless of what set they run, get OHKOed by +2 High Jump Kick barring Groudon, who is promptly murdered by +2 Sun boosted Flare Blitz. I am aware that the person who switched in Kyogre can promptly sit back and switch in Giratina-a / o / Ghost Arceus / Lugia, but do you really want to risk having your Kyogre loosing over half of its health from a High Jump Kick. In that case hasn't Blaziken just gotten closer to sweeping the team whole or helping a team mate sweep?

Also, Blissey shouldn't be lower than Chansey.
101 subs and residual damage are extremely common in ubers, turning Chansey into the ultimate setup bait for a variety of pokemon. Its higher physical defense is meaningless since physical attackers in ubers will OHKO or 2HKO her anyway, while the higher special defense barely makes a difference most of the time, since lack of Leftovers recovery will still push her into 2HKO range from things like Reshiram's Blue Flare and Kyurem-W's Focus Blast after residual damage.
At least Blissey can actually do something in return with her barely usable special attack and ability to hit common weaknesses (fire, ice and electric) and Leftovers recovery means that she doesn't have to waste turns to heal herself against things such as Tentacruel and Lugia.
Chansey should be rank C as well.

Firstly, the only things Blissey can stop from setup are Rayquaza, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor (assuming Blissey has SOME HP left so that it can tank that Bullet Punch). It cannot run both Ice Beam and Fire Blast meaning that it regardless is still going to let something setup. The latter is weakened by rain meaning it may even be rendered useless. The former is arguable as to its usage since Rayquaza's Outrage OHKOes Blissey anyway. Extremekiller, Offensive Groudon, CM Mons with Substitute (barring Steel Arceus and Poison Arceus who can forgo that move (latter needs coverage though)) Rest or Refresh (only referring to Latias and Dark Arceus here), and Mewtwo can still setup on it. The significant difference when using Chansey and Blissey is the defense stat. With it Chansey can survive even +1 Life Orbed Psystrike from Mewtwo. It even lives +1 Life Orbed Jolly Dragon Danced Rayquaza's Outrage if it decides to run Bold > Calm. That doesn't sound insignificant since even Groudon has trouble tanking that move right?

I'm also a bit curious why Therian Landorus was put in rank B. I have only seen it a couple of times, and it hardly did anything from what I remember.

Apparently that Pokemon is used quite frequently by some other people (not me but basically everyone else whose on often on IRC x_x). Its access to Intimidate, U-turn, and Stealth Rock lets it become the best Groudon check in the game (it IS uncommon though).

Cresselia, Dugtrio, Heracross, Hippowdon, Gastrodon, Incarnate Landorus, Ludicolo, Magnezone, Mew, Omastar, Qwilfish, and Whimsicott

Cresselia, Hippowdon, Omastar, Whimsicott, Lando-I, and Qwilfish all deserve to be C rank IMO. Cresselia's Rayquaza-slaying capabilities (lol) give it a solid niche, but its not too high since its only a non-inferior Lugia in Sun. Hippowdon is C rank but I'm stuck as to whether or not it should be B rank too. Aside from summoning sand, its a very decent Physical Wall. Its longevity is huge thanks to Slack Off, and to add icing to the cake, it gets Stealth Rock. Omastar, like Hippowdon, is something I'm stuck to assigning in B or C rank. It can check Extremekiller in rain and it gets Shell Smash! The only reason why I hold back on assigning it to a higher class is due to its mediocre speed, which prevents it from outspeeding stuff like Scarf Palkia and Deoxys-A pre-Shell Smash in rain. That and its hard to setup a smash. Whimsicott hands down is the fastest user of sub seed in the game, AND it can stop setup sweepers not utilizing priority with Priority Encore. The ability to act as a mini-Thundurus-T with priority Stun Spore and a helluva of other support options is cool too. Its unfortunate it can't touch Grass Arceus or Ferro or Forry but it makes them setup with Taunt (lol). Lando-I's unique speed tier is my reasoning for placing it in C rank, being able to outspeed the lati-twins by a single point is cool, that and an extra Life Orb boost in attack power in sand is very cool. Its limitation to sand prevents it from going any higher in the list. Qwilfish can be either C or D but I think it should be rank C since it can lay Spikes and Toxic Spikes in front of a lot of stuff. It can actually live long enough to decently setup hazards too thanks to Destiny Bond and Taunt threatening stuff. Its reliance on rain prevents it from going any higher.

Dugtrio, Ludicolo, Magnezone, Mew, Heracross, and Gastrodon fulfill specific niches and should therefore be D rank. Dugtrio basically works as either a one-trick pony and wins you games (unless opponent has two sets of priority) rarely but regardless of the situation its in, it deters the use of Choiced Electric moves. Which is a HUGE boon to anyone using Manaphy or a mon like that. The fact its largely useless outside of that prevents it from being any higher. Ludicolo is well known for his subseed ability. It is the only one that gets Rain Dish and the only one that can switch into Specs Kyogre. His inability to threaten enemy Grass-types, barring a Scald burn combined with it being like rendered useless if Toxic Spikes are on the field, prevent him from going any higher. That and he's extremely easy to phaze out. Due to his two significant niches, however, I would be content with his placement in the C tier. He can also run an offensively oriented swift swim set but both of those get walled by Giratina-a and Grass Arceus so I'll stop ranting (yes, they both live +2 LO Ice Punch and LO Ice Beam, and can phaze the thing back out). Mew has trouble distinguishing himself with Smeargle getting Shell Smash now, basically threatening to do what he takes 3 turns to do in one AND with Spore, only advantage (and a crucial one at that) is a LOT more bulk. Heracross and Gastrodon exist for the purpose of checking two Pokemon extremely well. Heracross counters standard Darkrai and Gastrodon counters Specs Kyogre. Latias gives Gastrodon a hard time and leaves him struggling for a niche (Gastro can't beat Sub CM too while Latias can). Heracross got trolled by sleep talk tutor and Kyurem-B. That and Thunder Wave Darkrai exists now Dx. His mediocre base speed forces him to run jolly iirc if he wants to revenge Mewtwo. Speaking of which he can't revenge Deoxys-A (unless they run some weird spread). Magnezone is um weird. It excels at abusing Ferrothorn and is largely useless if that one Pokemon isn't there. He won't even be able to sweep an enemy team if they carry two Pokemon faster then it. He can try to pummel stuff with Specs Thunders but really almost all Steels in Ubers are resistant to Thunder. Charge Beam + Sub + Ferro is his only real set IMO, and its reliant on his prey NOT using leech seed as zone comes in.

[syrim]

I've already given you most of my input on this over IRC, but I would encourage posters to read the reasoning behind each level, the quote in the OP, pretty thoroughly before posting, especially in regards to niche pokemon.

[Poppy]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

Also, Blissey shouldn't be lower than Chansey.
101 subs and residual damage are extremely common in ubers, turning Chansey into the ultimate setup bait for a variety of pokemon. Its higher physical defense is meaningless since physical attackers in ubers will OHKO or 2HKO her anyway, while the higher special defense barely makes a difference most of the time, since lack of Leftovers recovery will still push her into 2HKO range from things like Reshiram's Blue Flare and Kyurem-W's Focus Blast after residual damage.
At least Blissey can actually do something in return with her barely usable special attack and ability to hit common weaknesses (fire, ice and electric) and Leftovers recovery means that she doesn't have to waste turns to heal herself against things such as Tentacruel and Lugia.
Chansey should be rank C as well.

Don't kid yourself about 101 HP Substitutes lol, anything that uses them will be unbreakable by Blissey's Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, or Flamethrowers; SubCM Arceus, SubBU Dialga, Substitute Excadrill (rain, and it can still spin on you or obliterate with +2 Earthquake), SubDtail Lugia (Ice Beam and Tbolt don't break subs), Ho-Oh, I could go on. Moreover, there is a high opportunity cost for using two attacks with Blissey, as it has access to very poorly distributed moves such as Wish and Aromatherapy, which cannot be fitted with any other attack move other than Seismic Toss (Flamethrower as a sole move is ok on a sun team, but stil...).

Chansey has significantly more special bulk than Blissey, and according to superimps super helpful thread - A Defense Tier to Reach the Stars it has a roughly ~ 22.2% advantage in the special defense department; that is huge.

Chansey is capable of taking significantly more powerful special attacks than Blissey, including a whole host of physical ones, having roughly the same physical bulk as specially defensive Ferrothorn. Chansey can wall support Groudon, Blissey can't.

If you're going to attack a placement preferably use calcs to back up your post, people! (I would, but the site is blocked in China, moreover, the burden of proof is on the challenger xD).

Edit:

Thanks for bringing these up, Focus

Cresselia - one of the best responses to offensive boosting Groudon and a decent response to Rayquaza. It also has access to the very cool Lunar Dance. However, it has to rely on moonlight and has offenses that are beyond pathetic, only Ice Beam being useful for KOing Rayquaza after Stealth Rock. C Rank

Dugtrio - super, super niche. I guess you can remove Dialga if your sash is intact; SubHone is pretty damn gimmicky. It's really hard to justify this a team slot. D Rank

Heracross - has a niche, I guess. Sleep Talk Choice Scarf Heracross is a good Darkrai check, but is only good for that. It can't even check EKiller, nor Rayquaza. Although with Wobbuffet it can Pursuit Will-O-Wisp Giratina lol. D Rank.

Hippowdon - a sturdy Pokemon, suffers from having to monitor its health very carefully it's slow as hell and can't recover on much that it attempts to wall, like EKiller, Groudon, etc. However, it has the very rare Sand Stream, access to Stealth Rock, and excellent physical bulk. It can also work on rain teams with Sand Force. B Rank

Gastrodon - pretty much completely useless with Latias around now, can't even set up SR. Still dies to really strong Dragon-type attacks, is kinda 'okay' on sand teams. D Rank

Incarnate Landorus - it's powerful! SD in sand is pretty damn strong, and it has Grass Knot to fuck with Groudon. Pity about its Speed. C Rank

Ludicolo - it's a decent switch-in for Kyogre lol... Scald + Leech Seed is annoying as balls and it has Rain Dish to boot. Better than Gastrodon because it can Leech Seed stuff. I'm feeling a little generous and I'll give it a C Rank.

Magnezone - hard to justify a spot as its bulk is pretty non-existent in Ubers, but I guess it still has a niche in trapping otherwise troublesome 'mons. Maybe it'd pair well with EKiller for sniping Skarmory? C Rank.

Mew - Smeargle has Spore, Mew has really good bulk. I don't want to dismiss it immediately to D Rank, but in reality its only worthwhile set is passing Rock Polish or other boosts, not having Shell Smash kinda seals the deal. D Rank.

Omastar - the inferior Swift Swim user, Kabutops is better than this in almost all regards, but I guess it can sweep if you give it a free turn. Needs a lot of support, but isn't terrible. C Rank.

Qwilfish - it has hazards! And Taunt! And Destiny Bond! And Swift Swim! Cool assets, but really frail and rain reliant, gimping its niche as a lead. C Rank.

Whimsicott - pretty balls, can't check EKiller or ExtremeSpeed Rayquaza. Doesn't set up hazards, doesn't have Sleep Powder. Might be an irritation for offensive teams, at most. D Rank.

[Focus]

So how about Bronzong? Is it total crap or niche crap?

[Poppy]

It can set up Stealth Rock and wall a few things (mamoswine lol), it's actually one of the very few pokemon to resist Kyurem-W's STABs and not be weak to any of its coverage moves (in the rain), so there's that. C Rank, imo.

edit: oh yeah shrang, thanks for pointing that out. totally forgot about it, lol.

[shrang]

Originally Posted by Fat Poppy

It can set up Stealth Rock and wall a few things (mamoswine lol), it's actually one of the very few pokemon to resist Kyurem-W's STABs and not be weak to any of its coverage moves (in the rain), so there's that. C Rank, imo.

Just saying, Earth Power still hits Bronzong for super effective damage, since Levitate gets ignored.

[Mr.lol]

I'd like to say I agree with all of Poppy's ideas for placing mons on the ranking scale EXCEPT FOR TWO :P.

Whimsicott

---

Whimsicott - pretty balls, can't check EKiller or ExtremeSpeed Rayquaza. Doesn't set up hazards, doesn't have Sleep Powder. Might be an irritation for offensive teams, at most. D Rank.

I think its far more then "just an irritation". It gets a less accurate sleep powder in Grass Whistle but that isn't my point. I feel it should be rank C for the following reasons; it is capable of threatening everything that tries to stop its sub seed cycle thanks to its huge support movepool, and its sub seed cycle can arguable continue forever unless a Pokemon comes to stop it (in which case it has to become neutered to an extent thanks to that support movepool). It cannot go higher thanks to the fact its shutdown by Magic Bounce mons, the fact it has a major 4-moveslot syndrome (much larger then others I'll add), and the fact Toxic Spikes neuter its survivability and its hard to switch-in.

It can definitely be very effective given the right support (I'll add Ibo made an extremely successful quick stall team around this little guy iirc, and nothing else can perform this guy's niche). It pretty much defines C rank. I already listed its crippling flaws earlier. I think it should be C Rank and not D rank.

Anyways to elaborate, the Sub Seed Cycle it starts can continue forever if it can switch-in safely OR on a setup move from another mon. It can then proceed to Encore the poor mon that used a setup move should it lack priority (or just anything not named SD Rayquaza and Extremekiller Arceus), thanks to Encore. It can then do either one of these two things. It can then set up a Substitute and start its sub seed cycle the turn after, regardless of whether the pokemon locked onto decides to stay in. Assume this turn is turn 1.

If the pokemon decides to switch out turn 1, your met up with something behind a sub and priority leech seed. Not only did you just accomplish your goal and technically stop / force a setup sweeper out, you also can Leech Seed this new Pokemon and you have a free sub! Unless its a Grass type or a user of Rapid Spin... but if this Pokemon matches these qualifications we can assume that this Pokemon is either a Ferrothorn, Forretress, Arceus-Grass, Kabutops, Tentacruel or Excadrill. Ferrothorn, Forry, and Arceus-Grass can be rendered setup bait for something else with a Taunt, Kabutops and Excadrill can be crippled with Priority Stun Spore. Tentacruel is arguably the only thing that can safely switch-in and setup Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin, but at the same time, its plausible to take advantage of this Pokemon for setup right (admittedly no Physical sweeper likes setting up infront of a Scald... but what about Calm Mind Arceus or the like?)? If this Pokemon is not a Grass-type or user of Rapid Spin you can simply spam Substitute after you've Leech Seeded, wearing this Pokemon out forcing it to use a Recovery move (should it have one) or switch out. If it has a Recovery move you can Encore + Taunt the turn after it uses Rest / Recover / w.e. If it switches out you have a substitute up and you can do everything that I listed above all over again. There are three exceptions to these cycles and that is if the pokemon out has ExtremeSpeed or a form of priority, in which case your going to either force it to not setup with Taunt, Stun Spore it, or Leech Seed it and switch. The second scenario is if Xatu / Espeon comes out and regardless of what happens in that case your basically screwed x_x. The third is U-turn breaks your sub meaning you don't have a free sub anymore when something comes in. Thankfully, the most common user of this strong enough U-turn is Genesect. If you paralyze him you've done a lot for your team AND stopped two threatening foes. That setup sweeper that tried to setup earlier, and you've crippled a revenge killer!

If the pokemon decides to stay in turn 1, it can attempt to Encore the setup move again as encore ends then Taunt the foolish Pokemon and enforce struggling or a switch, regardless of the case it can leech seed the pokemon coming in after and continue the sub seed cycle. If Encore fails it can simply spam priority Substitute to wear out the Pokemon, it will be doomed if it does not use a recovery move which can simply be Encored and Taunted unless they switch. Oh and if they do switch you have a free sub, your still going to continue your sub seed cycle scenario. The ways for escaping this cycle are the same as listed in the paragraph before this.

I apologize if this sounds like a huge rant and if this intimidated anyone x_x.

Bronzong

---

Um this is admittedly a lot less larger then the rant on Whimsicott. Bronzong lacks any form of recovery which means its ability to perform its niche is a little hard. Its not very effective in this tier at all actually. In fact, it needs rain to perform any niche as a utility wall. Even Extremekiller Arceus, one of the few mons its supposed to stop, utterly destroys it with Sun boosted Overheat (although I will admit fewer and fewer people have been using this). It might stop K-white lacking Earth Power in rain but the samething comes up with the Extremekiller Arceus scenario, not to mention your barely coming out as a hybrid between Skarmory and Jirachi, and a hybrid that lacks Recovery I might add... the only thing it can do that both fail to do is wall mamo (which prevents it from falling to E rank IMO). Its other OTR set really lacks power IMO, have you even seen its Offenses x_x. I know C rank is "needs support to function great in meta but has flaws that make it typically outclassed" but Bronzong's flaws I think really push him over the hill and just make him not very effective in this meta at all... I'm fine with C rank but I really think placing him in D rank would make a lot more sense.

That and it can't even beat Extremekiller in rain if it switches into SD I mean look...

+2 252 atk LO Adamant Shadow Claw vs. Standard Bronzong (53.55 - 63.01%)... The only thing it can do is Reflect + Toxic and die...I mean this technically checks it but Extremekiller can go for the second Swords Dance while its alive to just hurt its efforts more and nullify its reflect, oh wait, what if it packs Brick Break...

Any opinions? I again apologize if this sounds like a huge rant and / or intimidated anyone with the wall of text.

On a completely random note, Parasect for E rank?

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I don't play the Ubers metagame very much and don't have as much experience with him as I have with OU, so I would like to ask some questions.

Don't any other Arceus form deservers to be S-Rank like the Normal one? I never had much problems handling the Extremekiller set, although I admit that a +2 STAB Extremespeed coming off a base 120 Atk is absolutely destructive. Revenge killing him is hard. However, I want to know if no other Arceus form, like Ghost, Grass or Steel, could be S. Also, what Latias has over Latios that makes her being of a higher tier than him? And wich crippling flaws that Reshiram have that prevents him from being B-tier at least?

Also, why bother tiering Charizard and Shedinja when they are absolutely shit on Ubers metagame?

[Mr.lol]

Don't any other Arceus form deservers to be S-Rank like the Normal one? I never had much problems handling the Extremekiller set, although I admit that a +2 STAB Extremespeed coming off a base 120 Atk is absolutely destructive. Revenge killing him is hard. However, I want to know if no other Arceus form, like Ghost, Grass or Steel, could be S. Also, what Latias has over Latios that makes her being of a higher tier than him? And wich crippling flaws that Reshiram have that prevents him from being B-tier at least?

Also, why bother tiering Charizard and Shedinja when they are absolutely shit on Ubers metagame?

Tiering Charizard and Shedinja is solely for telling people they suck. Literally.

Normal Arceus and Kyogre are pokemon that basically MUST be prepared for at all costs, thats pretty much why its S-tier. By switching their sets they gain the potential to beat Pokemon that would normally counter them. Normal Arceus has Wall Arceus walling practically every physical attacker barring Ho-oh and burning Choice Banded ones before they move and Extremekiller whose infamy is enough to lack elaboration. Kyogre can become a phenomenal tank by running a spread that fully invests in Special Defense or Defense. It can be a wall breaker by runnings Specs. A revenge-killer, and one of the few that can bypass +1 Mewtwo. A lure with Thunder Wave. They're flaws are made up by their versatility and strengths. They practically define the S-tier. Other Arceus forms can't have the same attacking prowess due to lack of STAB on ExtremeSpeed. They can't run other items to increase their diversity (although some are already so diverse). If there is any Arceus form aside one listed that deserves to be S its Ghost Arceus. Although its not since it faces competition from spin blocking from the Giratina-a's. Its CM set faces competition from other Arcei and the CM Tinas. It has opportunity cost. Normal Arceus has little opportunity cost, little competition. It is what you think of when you think of when you think of Physical Attacker (well that or Rayquaza). I think someone else can elaborate on this more then I can at least :P.

Oh and for reference so that way you don't have to scroll :P

Originally Posted by Fat OP

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Latias can switch into Specs Kyogre Water Spout and Latios can't, that alone puts Latias at a huge advantage. Reshiram has a niche but its reliant on sun. If sun isn't up it can't do nearly as much aside fire off a Specs Draco meteor, at that point your better off using something else. Its also Stealth Rock weak. Even in weather not named rain it has issues with Ho-oh, Tyranitar, and Chansey.

To quote from the OP:

Originally Posted by Fat OP

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.

It pretty much defines that.

I hope I could answer your question a bit :P.

[hichez]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

I don't play the Ubers metagame very much and don't have as much experience with him as I have with OU, so I would like to ask some questions.

Don't any other Arceus form deservers to be S-Rank like the Normal one? I never had much problems handling the Extremekiller set, although I admit that a +2 STAB Extremespeed coming off a base 120 Atk is absolutely destructive. Revenge killing him is hard. However, I want to know if no other Arceus form, like Ghost, Grass or Steel, could be S. Also, what Latias has over Latios that makes her being of a higher tier than him? And wich crippling flaws that Reshiram have that prevents him from being B-tier at least?

Also, why bother tiering Charizard and Shedinja when they are absolutely shit on Ubers metagame?

Charizard and Shedinja are gimmick pokemon. They work only if you come totally unprepared or never seen the sets before.

Honestly extreme killer arceus needs less support than the rest of the arceus sets in my opinion. Its only weakness is fighting which is non-exisnt in uber metagame past focus blast(which misses 30% of the time, but feels like 50% of the time) and aura sphere. Also if you can get a good read you can get +4 or rarely +6 arceus which blast through every Pokemon. The only hard counter is probably a team that has both arceus(normal) and giratina on it.

I don't know why reshiram is so low, but I would like to assume that it is because kyurem-W can do everything better. Draco meteor + max EV's in sp. atk and speed is mindless after you get rid of any pesky steel type walls.

[syrim]

Resh isn't so low because of poor offensive capabilities, but because of the diffuculty of actually getting it into play enough, or having enough attacking chances, to meaningfully effect the match. Its defensive typing and hazard weaknesses are both pretty awful.

[bubbly]

No love for Abomasnow? Fits nicely into C rank imo; you have Mamo in C and Aboma does just as nicely against the 4x Ice weak targets, while actually helping somewhat against Weather.

[evillocke]

Good list. Glad to see charizard in shit tier with sheddy and gyrados. Why is blissey below chansey, though?

[Go10]

Originally Posted by Fat Poppy

Don't kid yourself about 101 HP Substitutes lol, anything that uses them will be unbreakable by Blissey's Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, or Flamethrowers; SubCM Arceus, SubBU Dialga, Substitute Excadrill (rain, and it can still spin on you or obliterate with +2 Earthquake), SubDtail Lugia (Ice Beam and Tbolt don't break subs), Ho-Oh, I could go on. Moreover, there is a high opportunity cost for using two attacks with Blissey, as it has access to very poorly distributed moves such as Wish and Aromatherapy, which cannot be fitted with any other attack move other than Seismic Toss (Flamethrower as a sole move is ok on a sun team, but stil...).

Chansey has significantly more special bulk than Blissey, and according to superimps super helpful thread - A Defense Tier to Reach the Stars it has a roughly ~ 22.2% advantage in the special defense department; that is huge.

Chansey is capable of taking significantly more powerful special attacks than Blissey, including a whole host of physical ones, having roughly the same physical bulk as specially defensive Ferrothorn. Chansey can wall support Groudon, Blissey can't.

[Phazon00]

if anything was, like, on the cusp of S rank, what would it be? cause i think there are a few powerhouses in the A tier.

[Go10]

Oh btw, imo, Ghostceus deserve the S rank, really, he's way more powerful than Steel or Grassceus and can pull of a sweep by himself without any support in the current meta (it was already the case before in bw1, but its even more true now). His ability to check and setup on more than half of the metagame is hella scary.

[Jibaku*]

Some thoughts:

- Parasect to Tier E - Obviously
- Lucario to Tier E - iirc I deleted the Lucario analysis a while back when we agreed on the fact that it blows in Ubers. And E is exactly for that purpose.
- Thundurus-T to D - Thundurus-T packs a lot of power but it definitely suffers from a couple of annoying things. Its base Speed is alright but being outsped by Lati@s is huge (+ Garchomp, Terrakion). Its Electric immunity is somewhat notable but a lot of Thund-t teams I've noticed rely on it a bit too much and end up being weak to Zekrom (who btw is -the- reason you get an electric immune on your team, if not heavy resists). Thundurus-I offers higher Speed and possibly priority TWave (or Taunt?), and usually you'll find yourself using that more. Of course, that doesn't mean Thundurus-T is outclassed. It just means that finding a specific role for that thing can be a pain.

And I agree with Ghostceus to S because it's a ridiculous Pokemon. That or Extremekiller to A because imo it's just not as game impacting as Kyogre.