Embirch and Flarelm - Part 1 - Overview

[DHR-107]

Hello everyone and welcome to the original CaP 3’s (Pyroak) Prevo Project! In this thread I will be giving you wonderful people a brief outline of how things will be running throughout the process and give some time for general discussion of ideas.

As we can see from the images above, Embirch and Flarelm already have fairly solid designs. I urge everyone to hunt down and read over Pyroak’s process threads (Head to about page 31 or 32 in the CaP Process Archive). They are a little messier and informal than what we are used to now... but it should give you guys a good inkling of what we were going for. Use these resources as much as possible when coming up with ideas that should logically fit with these two prevos.

Remember: This is purely for flavour purposes! I’ll also link this thread to give a better heads up for newer users. Please do not forget we are making a pair of Gen 4 (DPPt) Pokémon. You can compare them to Gen 5 Pokémon if you wish, but please do not submit ideas that are Gen 5 only (Moves or Abilities).

I will also add: This plan may be subject to change depending on how discussions go in their respective threads. As this type of Prevo project has never been done before I am assuming it will be fairly malleable for the time being. This is totally new territory for us, so do not be surprised if things do not work out as well as they have been intended.

Typing Discussion and Polls
CaP Prevos should keep at least one type from their parent CaP. In this case, Fire/Grass is the order of the day. This discussion will likely end in two polls, one each for Embirch and Flarelm.
Ability Discussion and Polls
Battle Armour and Rock head were the two abilities for Pyroak. This stage will be all about the various abilities we could give the two prevolutions.
Stats Discussion and Polls
Pyroak currently stands at 120/70/105/95/90/60. As far as I am aware, no stats have ever officially been put forward for Embirch and Flarelm. CaPASB has a set of stats, but they are not official.
Movepool Discussion and Polls
I’ll go deeper into this later when this thread starts, but remember we cannot add anything which changes how Pyroak may be played.
Dex Entries Discussion and Polls
More flavour on top of our flavour! I'll also ask for opinions on Heights and Weights here.
Art Discussion and Polls
In a slight departure to how Birkal rolled with things, I will be starting this much earlier on in the process. Most likely just after Typing or Ability and it will run until a similar time until Dex entries.

Go forth and discuss! If you've got any good ideas I'll see how we can incorporate them into this plan. This thread will be open for 48 hours from now!

[Eagle4]

I feel that this process should undergo a sprite change, as the current sprites look a little rugged. We have more quality now than the day the sprites were made.

I feel that Embirch should be a grass-only type, whilst Flarelm a fire-grass. Flarelm has hints of fire typing without being obvious; Embirch has no fire implications whatsoever.

To add to the flavour, how about Flarelm needs to evolve into Pyroak in a special way, such as trading, etc?

[Quanyails]

Yay, earlier art entries! Will this include the two's backsprites as well as normal art?

It's a small skip to the next poll, but I'd stick with Fire/Grass. I'll explain my reasons in the discussion if needed.

[Delta Nite]

I don't know, but I dislike the idea of having preevos whose primary type is the Fully Evolved's secondary. In this case, I believe we should either stick with Fire as Embirch and Flarelm Primary type and choose whether they would also be Grass types, or we should have the freedom to switch Pyroak's typing from Fire/Grass to Grass/Fire. I mean, it won't change any competitive aspect of it...

[Birkal*]

One thing that really helped the Syclar overview thread was discussing specific evolution chains that held some relevance to the pre-evo process at hand. Unfortunately, there aren't many three-chain Fire-type evolutions, the closest thing we can get to is the Litwick design, but that suits Pyroak poorly because a) it's Gen5 and b) Chandelure's stats are much more skewed than Pyroak's. We can always look to starters, but I don't think we should rely too heavily on them as a model either because well, they are starters. One good starter to look at, however, would be the Cyndaquil line. Although it is a mono-type, I think their stat spreads and movepools (vaguely) have some similarities that can be noted. Otherwise, I am kind of at a loss for what to compare Embirch and Flarelm to; we really are charting into new territory with this one.

[Delta Nite]

Originally Posted by Fat Birkal

One thing that really helped the Syclar overview thread was discussing specific evolution chains that held some relevance to the pre-evo process at hand. Unfortunately, there aren't many three-chain Fire-type evolutions, the closest thing we can get to is the Litwick design, but that suits Pyroak poorly because a) it's Gen5 and b) Chandelure's stats are much more skewed than Pyroak's. We can always look to starters, but I don't think we should rely too heavily on them as a model either because well, they are starters. One good starter to look at, however, would be the Cyndaquil line. Although it is a mono-type, I think their stat spreads and movepools (vaguely) have some similarities that can be noted. Otherwise, I am kind of at a loss for what to compare Embirch and Flarelm to; we really are charting into new territory with this one.

What about the Lotad line? It's also a 3 stage family consisting of mixed starter types.

[Deck Knight]

We don't have many three-stage Fire types Birkal but we do have a crazy number of 3-stage Grass types. Pyroak's main typing is Fire but I hardly think we should be impeded because we lack a number of Fire-typed examples.

Victreebel/Vileplume/Jumpluff/Bellossom/Ludicolo/Shiftry/Roserade.

And those are just the non-starter three stage mons.

[CBMeadow]

Magmortar line.
Jus' sayin'.

As far as typings go, I'd probably be rather tempted to make Embirch plain Grass-type as well, but I also really hate the idea of switching primary typings around. I can deal with Fire/Grass for it- it isn't a major deal for me, but it just doesn't look as Fire-reminiscent as the other two. The ideal solution, for me at least, is to make Pyroak Grass/Fire like Delta Nite mentioned, but I understand if sticking to its process more rigidly is preferred- and this is assuming more people agree on plain-Grass for it anyway!

tl;dr: not a big deal, do whatever

[bugmaniacbob]

um

all three have cannons on their arms

how does that not scream fire-type to anyone

[CBMeadow]

Embirch's look little, though, or underdeveloped. They could be some kinda specialized plant, thing. Like.. bamboo, or something.

Realistically though it looks Fire enough for me to be more than fine if Fire/Grass is chosen for it; it's just personal preference. Imagine Embirch shooting a Fire Blast or Flamethrower out of those cannons without setting itself on fire- it doesn't look practiced or ready enough yet. Flarelm, by contrast, has body armour and a more splayed-out blunt kind of cannon, for more protection against the heat and a more battle-happy appearance.

(It's also more orange.)

[jas61292]

Like Deck, I saw that while there were not many three stage fire types, there are a bunch of grass ones. So, I was looking into grass types to see if any of them had some similarities to Pyroak we could use to base things on. Unfortunately, no existing grass line has even remote similarities to the stats of Pyroak, and the closest ones that do are very different in other ways. The main problem we come across is that while most of the three stage lines feature predominantly offensive minded Pokemon, Pyroak is decidedly defensive. Really, about the closest you will get statistically among three stage grass and fire types is something like Meganium, but even that is no where near close.

So, since there wasn't much within those two types, I decided to look elsewhere to see if I could find any similarities. Not many Pokemon have a similar build to Pyroak, and even fewer among three stage families. However, I was able to find one that is a good match: Walrein. Now I know that it might seem like an odd comparison, but, in addition to both being third stage dual type Pokemon, their stats are incredibly similar. HP, SpA and SpD are identical, along with their overall BST. While as far as flavor they are quite different, when it comes to more statistical things, I feel like this would be a good family to look at, very much like the Growlithe/Arcanine family was for Syclar.


Also, Birkal, I'm just wondering what exactly the similarity was you saw between the Cyndaquil family and Pyroak is. Personally I don't see it. However, if there is something there, I would suggest we look at the Charmander line as well. The stats are identical to the Cyndiquil's family for all three stages, and Charizard is both a dual typed Pokemon and with a reptilian based design, similar to Pyroak.

[srk1214]

I totally have always compared these guys to Lotad-Lombre-Ludicolo. Hence I am a firm believer all three are Fire/Grass. Beyond that, they all have names that are quite clearly Fire/Grass.

There's no way Ember + Birch and Flare + Elm shouldn't also be Fire/Grass like Pyre + Oak.

[Pwnemon]

i like the comparison to the ludicolo line a lot - they both have fairly balanced stats, a similar typing, and i would absolutely not be opposed to flarelm evolving by fire stone

[kjt]

That Ludicolo comparison seems pretty good. Only problem with that fire stone evolution is that, from what I remember, most stone evolutions typically get like four level one moves and not much else. That doesn't reflect Pyroak's move pool . . .

I think we should stick with the Fire/Grass combo. All three designs have the cannons, and it's not like Embirch undergoes any changes that scream LOOK LOOK I'M A FIRE TYPE NOW DIFFERENT I'M DIFFERENT. It just gets a bit more red. However, I kinda doubt Embirch's ability to use something powerful like Overheat or Fire Blast . . .

I think maybe we should treat Embirch as a baby Pokemon. For those of you who need a reminder (from Bulbapedia):

Baby Pokémon can by classified as such by these four rules:

• Can be obtainable by hatching an Egg.
• Must be the lowest form in a family chain.
• Must be able to evolve at least once.
• Cannot breed.

It's quite easy, really, to make Emrich a baby Pokemon. It's not like it's important for it to be able to breed or anything. Making Embirch a baby Pokemon would allow for its level-up movepool to be restricted to only a few moves and would provide an explanation for why it's not getting something like Zap Cannon or Lava Plume. A lot of the time a Pokemon's move pool is basically that of its evolutions (well it's probably the other way around but . . .), but making Embirch a baby Pokemon would mean it gets Ember for a fire move (the most basic fire move) and not Flame Wheel or anything too fire-y for something of its design. It can still be fire/grass typed, but it just won't get many (if any) fire moves.

Making it a baby Pokemon would also make thing a bit easier for deciding the move pool in general - Embirch would only get a few level up moves.

[Howzers]

Embirch as a baby helps draw comparisons with the Magmar line, so I think we'd do well to go with it.

[kjt]

I wasn't really thinking about Magby comparisons, really. Unlike most baby Pokemon, Magby (and Elekid and Smoochum for that matter) evolve quite late (30) and get a full level up move pool. I was thinking of something similar to Pichu or Budew where the level up move pool has only six moves or so. But, aside from the move pool thing I can kinda see a similarity to Magby.

[Menshay]

About the Magmortar line: while Magmortar and Pyroak share that unusual 540 BST, Magby, Magmar and Magmortar were all introduced in different generations and Magmar used to be fully evolved, which means its stats are unusually high for a middle-stage Pokémon.
Pyroak's line was introduced all together, and I think their stats should reflect this. Looking at the other base 540s, the only one in the same situation is Haxorus (the others are either two-stage families or families introduced in different generations).

A couple other considerations:
- Battle Armor doesn't really fit for Embirch since said armor doesn't exist yet. His head doesn't look particularly rocky either. Flarelm is fine with both of them, I guess.
- Related to the armor issue, I could see Embirch's speed stat not increasing at all or even decreasing upon evolution, as it starts to develop shields that keep growing in size and therefore hinder its movements.

About the whole process: I feel it could be useful to have a single stage for both movepools (and maybe even for stat spreads) to ease synchronization between them.

[SpecsX]

I could definitely see Embirch as a baby pokemon, which also increases the similarities to the Magmar line, as Howzers said.(Plus Pyroak and Magmortar both have cannons for arms.) Thyey're also Grass-typed, but I can't really find many similarities to any of them except a few random coincidences.

On another note, I could also see Embirch as mono-grass, with its underdeveloped cannons being more like thick branches or something.

[SubwayJ]

I don't know if this is valid discussion, but I believe the Flarelm to Pyroak evo should be accomplished via Sun Stone. Fire and Grass are the main two "sun types" so IMO it makes perfectly good sense for Pyroak to be a Sun Stone evo.

[Solstice]

I'm with SubwayJ, the Sun Stone evolution seems like perfect flavor to me. I also support the baby designation for Embirch, but I feel like they should all just stay as Fire/Grass. I know Embirch doesn't quite have the "fire" look to him yet but if we're discussing changing the sprites then this could easily be accomplished by introducing the glowing back "cannons" for lack of a better term which will increase the Fire-type personality.

[DHR-107]

Originally Posted by Fat Quanyails

Yay, earlier art entries! Will this include the two's backsprites as well as normal art?

It's a small skip to the next poll, but I'd stick with Fire/Grass. I'll explain my reasons in the discussion if needed.

I'm discussing this with Birkal and will talk to Wyverii when I see her. If you have any ideas for sprites (The ones in the OP I took from Wyverii's Sprite Thread). If there are any Spriters looking to help with Prevo's head there.

Originally Posted by Fat Menshay

About the whole process: I feel it could be useful to have a single stage for both movepools (and maybe even for stat spreads) to ease synchronization between them.

I should of probably made this clearer. I will be doing Movepools as one thread and one set of polls. Whoever is submitting will need to post both sets of Movepools. I'll explain that more when we get to that set of threads.

On the whole Baby Pokémon discussion; I personally don't see Flarelm as something which could stand alone in the same way that Electabuzz or Magmar could. I suppose you could argue for it because of Pikachu, Clefairy or Jigglypuff though (but these are all friendship evolutions that go onto evolve via Stones). It is certainly an interesting idea... But I will need to be swayed over more really.

I like how discussion is going in this thread. You have another 24 hours.