Balanced Hackmons

[mantzik32]

Kyurem-B @ Lum Berry
Trait: Skill Link
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Shift Gear
- Sub
- Dragon Claw

Came up with this a while back after being beat by sturdy Shedinja. Kyu-B seems to be the best abuser of skill link. +2 Icicle spear gets a perfect KO on Slaking and will deal with misc sturdy / sash / sub abusers.

Also, poison heal is a great ability. Immunity to spore and +12% hp per turn is nuts. I think I made a team a while back where half my team consisted of poison heal abuse, and it did quite well.

[Arcticblast]

Skill Link does not bypass Sturdy Shedinja because it always has one HP. Regardless, that set seems pretty solid. Perhaps another multi-hit attack would be better than Dragon Claw though - Bullet Seed and Rock Blast both have more power after 5 hits (125 versus 120 for Dragon Claw), but they offer somewhat poor coverage...

[Nollan]

Bone Rush is probably the best multi-hitting move to run.

[Vodoun]

How does this work in Balanced Hackmon?


Deoxys-Speed @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Prankster
Hasty Nature
- Spore
- ???
- ???
- ???

Deoxys-Speed @ BlackGlasses
Trait: Mold Breaker
Hasty Nature
- Spore
- Roar
- Hail / Sandstorm / Sun
- ???

Deoxys-Speed @ BlackGlasses
Trait: Magic Bounce
Hasty Nature
- Spore
- Roar
- Hail / Sandstorm / Sun
- ???


If you're wondering why the Black Glasses;

[verbatim]

Roar has -6 priority, so Prankster doesn't make it go first.

Also, Blackglasses?

[Vodoun]

Didn't mean to include it in the Prankster / Choice Scarf set - it's only supposed to phase out Sleeping units.

The Prankster / Choice Scarf is included to Speed-Tie other Deoxys-S, assuming that you can use more than one Deoxys in your Team.


I'm more interested in the rules / effect on the Meta-Game this would have; how it could be improved / work.

[akela]

Originally Posted by Fat Vodoun

Didn't mean to include it in the Prankster / Choice Scarf set - it's only supposed to phase out Sleeping units.

The Prankster / Choice Scarf is included to Speed-Tie other Deoxys-S, assuming that you can use more than one Deoxys in your Team.


I'm more interested in the rules / effect on the Meta-Game this would have; how it could be improved / work.

You can have up to 6 of 1 pokemon on your team in Balanced Hackmons.

[zbabyovr9000]

More anti- Deoxys-S lead is imprison, of which you can use prankster to always get it off first, or mold breaker for magic bouncers. I think it's been mentioned before though. But going first isn't all that useful because they can often a) have lum berry, or more dangerously b) have magic coat.

[Maddenxo]

Deoxys-S @ Leftovers
Magic Bounce
-Spore
-Stealth Rock
-Taunt
-U-Turn

Blissey @ Leftovers
Imposter
-Heart Swap
-Heal Bell
-Toxic
-Thunder Wave

Dialga @ Leftovers
Contrary
-Draco Meteor
-Leaf Storm
-V-Crete
-Substitute

Shedina @ Lum Berry
Sturdy
-Extremespeed
-Endeavor
-Shadow Sneak
-Dragon Tail

Slaking @ Leftovers
Magic Bounce
-Earthquake (replace with sacred fire?)
-Swords Dance
-Extremespeed
-Shadow Claw

Giratina @ Leftovers
Magic Bounce
-Dragon Tail
-Toxic Spikes
-Heart Swap
-Rapid Spin

[Vodoun]

Originally Posted by Fat zbabyovr9000

More anti- Deoxys-S lead is imprison, of which you can use prankster to always get it off first, or mold breaker for magic bouncers. I think it's been mentioned before though. But going first isn't all that useful because they can often a) have lum berry, or more dangerously b) have magic coat.

Ah; never heard of Magic Coat before - perfect counter.

[verbatim]

Originally Posted by Fat Maddenxo

Deoxys-S @ Leftovers
Magic Bounce
-Spore
-Stealth Rock
-Taunt
-U-Turn

Blissey @ Leftovers
Imposter
-Heart Swap
-Heal Bell
-Toxic
-Thunder Wave

Dialga @ Leftovers
Contrary
-Draco Meteor
-Leaf Storm
-V-Crete
-Substitute

Shedina @ Lum Berry
Sturdy
-Extremespeed
-Endeavor
-Shadow Sneak
-Dragon Tail

Slaking @ Leftovers
Magic Bounce
-Earthquake (replace with sacred fire?)
-Swords Dance
-Extremespeed
-Shadow Claw

Giratina @ Leftovers
Magic Bounce
-Dragon Tail
-Toxic Spikes
-Heart Swap
-Rapid Spin

It's worth noting that, once your Dialga is gone, your team is horribly vulnerable to Mold breaker, which overrides Magic Bounce and kills Shedinja through Sturdy.

[The_Eevee_General]

So I've been testing a version of Deoxys-Speed I want you guys to look at.


Speed Boost @ Leftovers
EVs standard (+Spe, -Atk)
-Magic Coat
-Encore
-Substitute
-Baton Pass

I generally lead with Magic Coat to thwart enemy Deoxys-S Mold Breakers or whatever and get my first +1 Speed. Then I either Encore or Sub, depending on last move used. Sub obviously if they used Spore, Encore if they started to boost. Once they switch (or stay in to waste Encore, which is fine) I've generally passed at least +2 Speed and a Sub to another Poke. I like to pass to Simple Mewtwo, who can then Shell Smash and sweep with Stored Power.

What do you think?

Oh yeah here's a funny battle showcasing the set. It's under an alt I use to test.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ba...ackmons3570485

[DarkBlazeR]

Gengar @ Spooky Plate
Trait: Normalize
Timid Nature
- Skill Swap
- Shell Smash
- Judgment
- Aura Sphere

I don't take credit for this set. I've seen quite a few people use it, yet it hasn't actually been posted here yet, so I thought it would be worth sharing it. This is an extremely deadly sweeper that can easily destroy whole teams. The concept is that you use Skill Swap on something slower to give them Normalize, making them unable you harm you at all. Use Shell Smash as they switch, and tear them apart with unresisted Ghost + Fighting coverage. Judgment is not only stronger than Shadow Ball, but also means that Imposter Chansey is unable to revenge kill you - this is huge considering how it stops all other setup sweepers caught without a Sub. Unaware Arceus is basically the only counter to this, which is very uncommon at the moment anyway.

[Varfor]

Originally Posted by Fat DarkBlazeR

Gengar @ Spooky Plate
Trait: Normalize
Timid Nature
- Skill Swap
- Shell Smash
- Judgment
- Aura Sphere

I don't take credit for this set. I've seen quite a few people use it, yet it hasn't actually been posted here yet, so I thought it would be worth sharing it. This is an extremely deadly sweeper that can easily destroy whole teams. The concept is that you use Skill Swap on something slower to give them Normalize, making them unable you harm you at all. Use Shell Smash as they switch, and tear them apart with unresisted Ghost + Fighting coverage. Judgment is not only stronger than Shadow Ball, but also means that Imposter Chansey is unable to revenge kill you - this is huge considering how it stops all other setup sweepers caught without a Sub. Unaware Arceus is basically the only counter to this, which is very uncommon at the moment anyway.

I have been using this set for a while (though I also do not take credit for it), and while it can be devastating if used correctly, you have to play it very carefully. Most notably, it is easily revenge killed by Prankster Groudon's priority Nature power, it is also completely walled by Arceus-Ghost (unless it can get rid of normalize before Arceus-Ghost switches in) and it has to be careful of any pokemon it cannot OHKO, such as Unaware pokemon like the aforementioned Arceus, as its defences are terrible.

[verbatim]

Spooky Plate Judgement is an amazing set. I currently run a Mold Breaker variant in tandem with Encore (harder to set up, but Mold Breaker ensures that your spree won't be interrupted by Shedinja).

[Imanalt]

Originally Posted by Fat verbatim

Spooky Plate Judgement is an amazing set. I currently run a Mold Breaker variant in tandem with Encore (harder to set up, but Mold Breaker ensures that your spree won't be interrupted by Shedinja).

I've been happier recently running magic bounce to aid set up and running toxic to beat shedinja. (although magic coat has more pps than toxic, so perhaps something gimmicky like poison gas ?_?)

[DarkBlazeR]

If you're looking for a move simply to beat Shedinja, I suggest running the move Sandstorm, as barring a really random scenario where Shedinja has Rain Dance/Sunny Day, it has no way of blocking it. Of course, you'll take 5 turns of passive damage, but it may be a price worth paying to reliably get rid of Shedinja.

[Wobble]

Couldn't you simply Skill Swap the Shedinja and take away its Sturdy? Most Shedinja are walled by Gengar anyway since they tend to run Endeavor + ESpeed or Endeavor + Ice Shard.

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

Originally Posted by Fat Wobble

Couldn't you simply Skill Swap the Shedinja and take away its Sturdy? Most Shedinja are walled by Gengar anyway since they tend to run Endeavor + ESpeed or Endeavor + Ice Shard.

Why not run Sandstream? While it takes up an ability slot on a Pokemon I find the permanent weather to be a very worthwhile choice, especially since you can put weather on Pokemon you want. Since so many Pokemon in BH run Lum Berry to avoid Spore, the Sand damage can rack up on targets quite easily. The 1.5 boost to special defense for Rock types has come into much more play than sand rush has (which is a decent ability to pack). Rock-Arceus is a monster to contrary abusers with a titanic special defense and Rock-STAB is actually a great type to carry in this metagame (only Groundon, Ferrothorn, and Dialga in the top 20 resist).

[DarkBlazeR]

^ seconding that Sand Stream is an amazing ability in BH, I'm currently #1 on the ladder whilst utilising it. My team isn't really based around it though; I just threw it on so that my offensive 'mons had no problems with Shedinja, and could also take advantage of passive damage.

[Imanalt]

Originally Posted by Fat DarkBlazeR

If you're looking for a move simply to beat Shedinja, I suggest running the move Sandstorm, as barring a really random scenario where Shedinja has Rain Dance/Sunny Day, it has no way of blocking it. Of course, you'll take 5 turns of passive damage, but it may be a price worth paying to reliably get rid of Shedinja.

My team has real issues with sand already, residual damage kills me, so i want to way to just beat sheddi 1v1, which poison gas will always do

[Arcticblast]

Yeah, as someone who ONLY runs Sand in Balanced Hackmons, it is absolutely wonderful. Sand Rush suddenly becomes one of the most powerful abilities in the game (Swift Swimmers have trouble with Shedinja), various Pokemon like Regirock, Shuckle and Eviolite Rhydon become defensive behemoths, and stalling becomes 6% more effective.

I've never thought of Rock Arceus, but that's probably because I'm too busy Unaware Shuckling everything XD

[Arizona]

Add yet another person to top the ladder with sand. It seems weather is viable in just about any meta it exists.

I checked out this meta a few months back, got the hang of it, and climbed the ladder pretty quick. Having returned, it's odd to find so little has changed. Apart from what my keen theorymoning senses tell me was a necessary Shadow Tag ban, many things are the same, and some of them should not be. I'll just focus on the worst offender: Shedinja.

Shedinja requires too much support to do what another pokemon with far more utility could do better. Stopping non-Mold Breaker sweepers? Unaware does fine. Unsubbed sweeper? Chansey/Blissey. Nearly any set up sweeper at all? Prankster Heart Swap. All of these are more robust options than Shedinja that don't require complete victory in both the hazard and weather war to contribute. You need one member to set up Rain or Sun (which Shedy can hardly abuse well) and multiple pokemon to keep hazards off. Considering how much you will have to outplay the opponent to even get Shedinja in safely, it needs to have a massive impact. And what is it's impact? Endeavoring into Giratina.

In many, many games, I have not once witnessed Shedinja achieve anything justifying a teamslot. Competently built teams hard counter it without even trying. Not since Molk trolled RU with Metang has a pokemon's usage been so far above it's value. Shedinja is to BH as Electivire is to OU. While on one level I'm happy to start any battle up 6-5, I think we would all prefer to get ahead through our own skill, not the mis-appraisal of our opponent. Maybe a new set will emerge that makes better use of the one-hit wonder, but Sturdy Endeavor Shedinja is no more than a gimic that fails against any good team.

[DarkBlazeR]

Groudon @ Choice Band
Trait: Prankster
Adamant Nature
- Trick
- Nature Power
- Head Smash / Stone Edge
- Spore / Heart Swap / Recover

This is an incredibly underrated set that I'm surprised no one really uses. Priority Earthquake backed by base 150 Attack plus the boost from CB hits like an absolute truck - since the most common set by far is the standard Heart Swap set, no one expects Groudon to be able to hit so hard. Also, considering how the only common Ground immunity/resistance in BH is Lugia, it is very difficult for your opponent to safely switch into. Head Smash appropriately deals with it, though Stone Miss could be used if you're too much of a wuss to deal with the recoil. Groudon can easily revenge kill most of the metagame with this set, and get an easy clean up sweep in the late game with some hazards down.

Trick is another interesting quality about this set. In a metagame full of super-bulky Pokemon, Groudon can cripple all of the common tanks with Trick. No one ever sees this coming, considering how rare choice items are in BH. This can completely mess up your opponent's game plans. Oh, and Trick has priority too thanks to Prankster.

The last moveslot is the least important, though there's a few things you could run. I prefer Spore as it's amazing with priority as long as you watch out for Magic Bounce users. Heart Swap could be used to steal Attack boosts though, and Recover allows Groudon to stick around longer to tank things once it Tricked its CB. SD is another option, though I personally don't like boosting sweepers that don't utilise Substitute or Illusion as Imposter Chansey will fuck you otherwise.



Addressing Shedinja - it is totally dependent on team support to be usable. It incredibly easy to deal with due to all forms of passive damage OHKOing it. However, I do disagree with your comparison between Electivire and Shedinja. Electivire is merely a bad Pokemon that brings little to the table. Shedinja is essentially the epitome of high-risk, high-reward. If you can somehow remove all passive damage from play, nothing can put you into a checkmate position as well as Shedinja can. In fact, the threat of it is why all teams have to run some form of passive damage in order to be viable.

[The Dark Hero]

Originally Posted by Fat Arizona

Add yet another person to top the ladder with sand. It seems weather is viable in just about any meta it exists.

I checked out this meta a few months back, got the hang of it, and climbed the ladder pretty quick. Having returned, it's odd to find so little has changed. Apart from what my keen theorymoning senses tell me was a necessary Shadow Tag ban, many things are the same, and some of them should not be. I'll just focus on the worst offender: Shedinja.

Shedinja requires too much support to do what another pokemon with far more utility could do better. Stopping non-Mold Breaker sweepers? Unaware does fine. Unsubbed sweeper? Chansey/Blissey. Nearly any set up sweeper at all? Prankster Heart Swap. All of these are more robust options than Shedinja that don't require complete victory in both the hazard and weather war to contribute. You need one member to set up Rain or Sun (which Shedy can hardly abuse well) and multiple pokemon to keep hazards off. Considering how much you will have to outplay the opponent to even get Shedinja in safely, it needs to have a massive impact. And what is it's impact? Endeavoring into Giratina.

In many, many games, I have not once witnessed Shedinja achieve anything justifying a teamslot. Competently built teams hard counter it without even trying. Not since Molk trolled RU with Metang has a pokemon's usage been so far above it's value. Shedinja is to BH as Electivire is to OU. While on one level I'm happy to start any battle up 6-5, I think we would all prefer to get ahead through our own skill, not the mis-appraisal of our opponent. Maybe a new set will emerge that makes better use of the one-hit wonder, but Sturdy Endeavor Shedinja is no more than a gimic that fails against any good team.

I agree, Shedinja sucks. That's why I have Tyranitar.