October 2012 OU / Suspect Stats

[SJCrew]

OU Suspect stats are very telling with regards to what OU would really look like if everyone were simply doing what it took to win. Of course, not all Pokemon are created equal...but the upper crust are a lot more clearly defined in Suspect.

[Lady Alex]

I'm not surprised at all that Genesect is #1, but to see it at 50% in suspect is insane. It's a testament to how ridiculously good it is and that there really is no reason not to use it on a team. The scarf set is the best dragon check in the game right now and the Rock Polish set sweeps teams that have lost their heatran with relative ease. I have a feeling that a lot of people are ready to see this thing go.

[alexwolf]

As someone sayed earlier, i think that the tiers should be made by usage statistics of players with a certain min rating. I mean guys look at normal OU usage stats right now...

Gliscor is #9 even though it is outclassed by Landorus-T in offensive and offensive balanced teams, and that it's Toxic stalling and AcroBat sets are bad. Only the SubPass and the defensive sets are worth using, yet look where he is.

Cloyster is #20 for some strang reason. I don't remember it ever being popular to noobs. Anyway it is an ok sweeper, but has a hell of a time setting up, and even if it does, it has Breloom and Keldeo to make its life hard.

Infernape at #22 is weird as hell, as rain is everywhere, as are Lati@s, Tentacruel and better sweepers and wallbreakers for most sun teams. He still has a niche, but a small one, and its usage isn't deserved at all.

As for Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T, Keldeo, Deoxys-D, Landorus, Landorus-T, Celebi, Latias, and Hippowdon, they are all criminally underused... And when shit like Ninjask are #50 in usage you know that something is really wrong.

So i think that we can't count all the players in PS for our tiering. I may be overreacting, but i just can't accept how terrrible the OU stats are. In the past (before PS), they weren't the most reliable source of telling what's good and what isn't, but they still could provide some backround for what pokes were good in OU, and what was the shape of OU in general. Now? Lol!!! If a new player ever sees the current usage stats, i doubt that its pokemon career will start in a good way. There are simply too many bad players...

EDIT: Did you understand what i was saying?

[malomyotismon]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

As someone sayed earlier, i think that the tiers should be made by usage statistics of players with a certain min rating. I mean guys look at OU right now...

Gliscor is #9 even though it is outclassed by Landorus-T in offensive and offensive balanced teams, and that it's Toxic stalling and AcroBat sets are bad. Only the SubPass and the defensive sets are worth using, yet look where he is.

Cloyster is #20 for some strang reason. I don't remember it ever being popular to noobs. Anyway it is an ok sweeper, but has a hell of a time setting up, and even if it does, it has Breloom and Keldeo to make its life hard.

Infernape at #22 is weird as hell, as rain is everywhere, as are Lati@s, Tentacruel and better sweepers and wallbreakers for most sun teams. He still has a niche, but a small one, and its usage isn't deserved at all.

As for Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T, Keldeo, Deoxys-D, Landorus, Landorus-T, Celebi, Latias, and Hippowdon, they are all criminally underused... And when shit like Ninjask are #50 in usage you know that something is really wrong.

So i think that we can't count all the players in PS for our tiering. I may be overreacting, but i just can't accept how terrrible the OU stats are. In the past (before PS), they weren't the most reliable source of telling what's good and what isn't, but they still could provide some backround for what pokes were good in OU, and what was the shape of OU in general. Now? Lol!!! If a new player ever sees the current usage stats, i doubt that its pokemon career will start in a good way. There are simply too many bad players...

It dose not even make sense, bad players just spam all the best pokemon in a vein attempt to win, like in 4th gen. Since when has smogon been an excuse to play for fun, rather than the sport of competition?

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Did you understand what i was saying?

Yes and I agree, they are now too many players that are not trying to win on smogon they are just battling for the hell of it. Thus pokemon that are expected to be high in use are low on occasions and the same with pokemon as you pointed out, cloyster are much higher in useage than their capability would understand and your suggestion of applying stats to ranks would allow us to see stats when people are playing seriously.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat malomyotismon

Yes and I agree, they are now too many players that are not trying to win on smogon they are just battling for the hell of it. Thus pokemon that are expected to be high in use are low on occasions and the same with pokemon as you pointed out, cloyster are much higher in useage than their capability would understand and your suggestion of applying stats to ranks would allow us to see stats when people are playing seriously.

Ah great! I thought you were disagreeing with me...

[malomyotismon]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Ah great! I thought you were disagreeing with me...

God no, your right and I could not agree more, ninjask in ou is like the return of electivire. This is really damaging for smogon too as you said newbies look at it, and get the idea that certain pokemon are better than others and our image as a competive site, the whole in it to win it thing kept people away that had no interest in serious battles before, whats happened thta people think smogon is for jollies and their favourites?

Before people bash alakazam being so high, while genesect and deoxys s help teams trash theier opponents, alakazam is very good at cleaning up the mess. I use him on a drag mag team, where he cleans up after nite and garchomp are done, instant power, focus sash for priority and scarfers and speed stat that mean you almost always attack first.

[Ada]

I think part of this is due to the articles we produce, where certain pokemon are made to sound better than they really are. Luckily, this is being addressed by the Update Overviews project.

[SJCrew]

I highly doubt that the first place people come to figure out whether or not something is good is the usage statistics anyway. They likely play what they see on ladder and are consistently beaten by. If less players are taking ladder seriously (ironically due its unrewarding nature and general lack of competitiveness), it should come as no surprise that the usage statistics do not represent them.

@ malo: I think Alakazam is best in Sun where he can actually get past Jirachi. But then again, I think a lot of Pokemon are best in Sun.

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat Ghostbone

OU
| 4 | Dragonite | 124017 | 16.016%
Suspect
| 16 | Dragonite | 2617 | 11.587%
Dragonite isn't that great guys....DD is actually just too slow in this meta, multiscale is too easy too break.

Are you freaking kidding me? Dragonite is one of the most versatile and dangerous dragons to deal with in this meta. Are you hinting that it should drop to UU or something? Multiscale is easily broken if you have poor team building and or bad predictions. You MUST have a spinner on a team with Dragonite in order for it to shine, and you also need to make sure to bring Dragonite in on a free switch, so he doesn't take damage in the process.

Being so incredibly unpredictable and being able to go so many different routes in move sets makes this thing something to watch out for. Don't just use his DD set, try his CB, Parashuffler, or even bulky DD. Please don't ever use the words "not great" and "Dragonite" in the same sentence. Not counting that one ;)

[Shurtugal]

I think the fact that people copy teams to make req. on suspect says a lot. Seriously, during Chomp, you had the Genesect / Terrakion / Breloom / Garchomp / Keldeo / Landorus team, which ofc, contains Gene, Terrak, and Keldeo, the Pokemon on suspect that have that high usage...

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

As far as I'm concerned, these are the true usage stats for OU. They show the metagame as it really is: dominated by Rain and offense spam.

Usage is usage. As long as we determine our tiers based on the choices of all players, the "true" usage stats are the OU usage stats themselves.

And yet the suspect stats have their own, different importance: they show what works. We have all reason to believe that Kyurem-B isn't doing much at all to influence the metagame: what skilled players would use in Suspect is about the same as what they would use in OU. So from this, we can tell that indeed, what "works" is incredibly slanted and casts a ton of suspicion on Genesect in particular.

[SJCrew]

Originally Posted by Fat Gary2346

Are you freaking kidding me? Dragonite is one of the most versatile and dangerous dragons to deal with in this meta. Are you hinting that it should drop to UU or something? Multiscale is easily broken if you have poor team building and or bad predictions. You MUST have a spinner on a team with Dragonite in order for it to shine, and you also need to make sure to bring Dragonite in on a free switch, so he doesn't take damage in the process.

Being so incredibly unpredictable and being able to go so many different routes in move sets makes this thing something to watch out for. Don't just use his DD set, try his CB, Parashuffler, or even bulky DD. Please don't ever use the words "not great" and "Dragonite" in the same sentence. Not counting that one ;)

He's really not that stellar at all. All of his sets have different issues to contend with, most of them involving his speed and the fact that in a Rain meta, Skarmory and Ferrothorn are pretty hard checks. Outside of DD and CB, I think most of his other sets are gimmicks. He's a little TOO reliant on multiscale for my tastes.

If you want to talk about something threatening without rocks up, try Mence or Volcarona. Those two send me in a panic faster than Dragonite.

[TooMuchSugar]

Originally Posted by Fat malomyotismon

Since when has smogon been an excuse to play for fun, rather than the sport of competition?

I'm sorry, but this bugs me. What's wrong with playing for fun as long as you don't make teams specifically to bug people? I freely admit that I play for fun. What other reason is there to play pokemon?

[malomyotismon]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

He's really not that stellar at all. All of his sets have different issues to contend with, most of them involving his speed and the fact that in a Rain meta, Skarmory and Ferrothorn are pretty hard checks. Outside of DD and CB, I think most of his other sets are gimmicks. He's a little TOO reliant on multiscale for my tastes.

If you want to talk about something threatening without rocks up, try Mence or Volcarona. Those two send me in a panic faster than Dragonite.

Even with moxie, mence is not that great. If he uses moxie he is rather frail 95/80/80 defences in this metagame are not that great and it's not that hard to ko him, unlike dragonite who will find it very easy to get up a dd if multiscale is intact and even if it's not he has still got good bulk, he can either roost or set up. The thing's mence have really got going for it is tha bility to out speed genesect and that beautiful scarf set, making it arguably the second best scarfer after genesect. Dragonite has issues as a dragon dancer because of genesect.

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

He's really not that stellar at all. All of his sets have different issues to contend with, most of them involving his speed and the fact that in a Rain meta, Skarmory and Ferrothorn are pretty hard checks. Outside of DD and CB, I think most of his other sets are gimmicks. He's a little TOO reliant on multiscale for my tastes.

If you want to talk about something threatening without rocks up, try Mence or Volcarona. Those two send me in a panic faster than Dragonite.

Of course Salamence is a huge threat as well, but he's quite frail, and even without Multiscale Dragonite can take hits better, and dealing almost the same amount of damage (not counting Moxie). His speed is lacking however, but Salamence is very easy to revenge kill with priority and scarfed Genesect, where as with Dragonite at Multiscale he's much harder to revenge kill, and with access to Roost, he can get it back up. Lastly, he works similar to Volcarona by being able to spam Hurricane, making him a viable rain team member.

Yes I agree there are better choices out there, but I don't agree with the fact that he's not good in this meta, because he is.

Originally Posted by Fat malomyotismon

Dragonite has issues as a dragon dancer because of genesect.

Also this plays a role in his drop in effectiveness. Genebitch.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

He's really not that stellar at all. All of his sets have different issues to contend with, most of them involving his speed and the fact that in a Rain meta, Skarmory and Ferrothorn are pretty hard checks. Outside of DD and CB, I think most of his other sets are gimmicks. He's a little TOO reliant on multiscale for my tastes.

If you want to talk about something threatening without rocks up, try Mence or Volcarona. Those two send me in a panic faster than Dragonite.

You mention that because rain is so popular, Skarmory and Ferro are very good checks to Dnite. And then you say that Mence is far more threatening than Dnite, as if the above pokes that you mentioned don't really afect him, which is not the case at all. Maybe i just understood wrong, in which case excsuse me.

Finally SubDD and CB sets are enough to make Dnite verstile and threatening in comparison to other dragons and DDers. And anyway Dragonites advantages were always the ability to set-up easy, or hit hard while having priority and still being able to take some hard hits, meaning CB and DD sets were always his best sets, while all other sets were just decent.

[Stone RG]

hello? 50%, you kidding me?

Definetely every person realizes that this pretty much means that (good) players have no reason not to use genesect, which essentially means broken, (but i think that discussion should be in a thread where everybody is focused on that topic). And as most people i consider the suspect the real OU stats due the number of scrubs you find in the regular OU ladder, i like seeing deoxys d and keldeo getting the respect they deserve.

Also, copying 4-5 teams isnt what most of us did in the Suspect ladder, i only used 1 :]

[Shurtugal]

Originally Posted by Fat malomyotismon

Even with moxie, mence is not that great. If he uses moxie he is rather frail 95/80/80 defences in this metagame are not that great and it's not that hard to ko him, unlike dragonite who will find it very easy to get up a dd if multiscale is intact and even if it's not he has still got good bulk, he can either roost or set up. The thing's mence have really got going for it is tha bility to out speed genesect and that beautiful scarf set, making it arguably the second best scarfer after genesect. Dragonite has issues as a dragon dancer because of genesect.

Yeah Gene's Ice Beam KOs and outspeeds +1 Jolly DNIte. However, +2 KO after rocks w/ Outrage, and outspeeds. I think DNite is actually really good since it beats so many teams after +2.

[Leader Fox]

Well even if Genesect was to be banned, it wouldn't make Dragons broken i mean look at early B/W 2 when genesect didn't even exist, did you hear people complain about dragons, no, dragonite has always existed and will prob continue to exist, also For salamence to sweep he MUST remover bulky steels and Mamoswine, so i don't exactly see how he will rise in Usage if and only if genesect was banned

[Honus]

Man I can't believe Landorus is so low on the OU ladder. Even if there's a 'disparity' or whatever between the two ladders, and one is still stuck in the old days for the most part, I thought it was at least pretty obvious at this point what a potent sweeper RP Landorus has become with Sheer Force. I've seen so many people [myself included] manage to choke a match because the opponent was able to etch out a way for Landorus to sweep late game, which isn't that hard since it can 2HKO p much anything across its coverage and Rock Polish is set up in one turn. I'm not calling it out as broken or anything, but I'm definitely surprised that the trend hasn't really hit the mainstream yet, since it's really one of the best new sweepers imo.

[malomyotismon]

Originally Posted by Fat Stone RG

hello? 50%, you kidding me?

Definetely every person realizes that this pretty much means that (good) players have no reason not to use genesect, which essentially means broken, (but i think that discussion should be in a thread where everybody is focused on that topic). And as most people i consider the suspect the real OU stats due the number of scrubs you find in the regular OU ladder, i like seeing deoxys d and keldeo getting the respect they deserve.

Also, copying 4-5 teams isnt what most of us did in the Suspect ladder, i only used 1 :]

We shall see, regardless to whether genesect is broken or not there is a difference between between versitile to the point he is useful on 99% of teams. I have never madea team since it's release that genesect was not ideal, he can do so many jobs at once that would normally require more than one pokemon, jack of all offensive trade and the not 100% uber of them too like mewtwo or arceus. I don't want to get involved in a debate or whether it's uber or not for the reason I don't think genesect has a cat in hells chance of getting a fair test. Vertility and effectiveness may imply uber but they mean no more than latias, deoyxs d and keldeo being bad for being so rrarely used, when clearly they are not and I know everyone agree with me here on the whole why in gods earth are these pokemon not used more part.

[Joeyboy]

Originally Posted by Fat malomyotismon

Since when has smogon been an excuse to play for fun, rather than the sport of competition?

What? This statement is really rubbing me the wrong way. I don't think a single user is on here for any reason besides fun. If you find winning fun then so be it but there are loads of people on Smogon, and PS, who are just there to have fun. And why is that so wrong?

A lot of this talk about the differences in the Suspect ladder and the OU ladder is giving off a really elitist vibe. I'm genuinely of the belief that there should never be a minimal rating for usage stats. Who cares if Keldeo isn't being used much by the general populace. What does it matter to you if it is at the 43rd spot or the 9th spot. Even if it drops to UU that doesn't mean you can't use it, nor does it make it any worse of a pokemon all of a sudden. Usage stats have never shown, definitively, which pokemon are the best. Look at DPP when Deoxys-S and Wobbufett were both OU and before they were both voted Uber, Wobbufett had just over 5% usage, and Deoxys-S a little over 10%.(Source)

The thing about Suspect ladders is that everyone is only seriously there to make voting requirements and if they know an easy way to do so they'll do it. I'm referring to how many, many players use the same team to ladder(Here's looking at you toed/torn/gene/trio/tenta/ferro). Its been proven to work and it's much easier than taking the time to build one of your own. Because of this the usage stats are quite biased to those teams(another example, Focus Sash being Terrakion's most used item).

Plus, if we wanted to get true usage stats based on which pokemon are really the best we'd use Tournament matches now wouldn't we ;)

Genesect's 50%, in my opinion shouldn't be looked at without a grain of salt. Sure the closest usage like that I remember was DPP Scizor after it got BP(hovered around 35%) but again this is Suspect ladder, which is always bloated in favor of the 3-4 teams which crop up that get Voting Reqs easily. Genesect fits snugly on most of those teams. Too be honest, I kind of thought Genesect's usage would be even higher, I definitely saw it at least at 50% of the time. I can't be the only one who saw a Genesect on basically every team on Suspect, can I?

[SJCrew]

Yes I agree there are better choices out there, but I don't agree with the fact that he's not good in this meta, because he is.

That's what I'm saying too. On top of this Rain bullshit making Keldeo and Tornadus God-tier sweepers/wallbreakers, there are a lot more viable Scarfers now to stop him from sweeping anything even with a free dance. On top of the support he requires to maintain his advantage, I think ~#15 is just right for him.

@Alexwolf: I'll usually take Mence over Nite these days because with those same checks weakened, he can sweep without any setup and not care as much about Genesect. And mixed Rain has always been garbage.

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

Yeah, you see these suspect stats make more sense. Things like Keldeo and Deoxys-D are high because they're ridiculously good Pokemon. Latias sees the use it deserves (it's offensive sets are literally just as good as Latios imo). Things like Metagross aren't seen because it's aggressively mediocre, etc.

| 1 | Genesect | 11417 | 50.549% | 10233 | 52.536% |

I don't think any Pokemon has ever this much usage in any OU metagame. Even DPP OU Garchomp couldn't crack 50%... Not much else to say, the usage stat pretty much speaks for itself.

I think not even Kyogre has seen that much usage. Then again, I don't like taking Suspect stats into consideration because we, well, have a Uber being tested there, but Genesect's still ridiculous.

[Kidogo]

For what it's worth, tyranitar had ~70% usage in DW OU 1337 stats before DW's fall, with excadrill > 50% IIRC (although I think this is partially due to the fact that the ~20-30 alts above 1337 actually belonged to less than 10 distinct people).

IMO, suspect is not really equivalent to 1337 stats in terms of getting an accurate idea of the metagame. True, it does tend to attract higher-caliber players, but as various people have said, the goal is just to accumulate enough points quick enough to get reqs. This leads to people using very offensive teams--matches go faster that way--and being much less creative--why bother trying to create a truly good team when you can copy a good team that will make reqs for you? Furthermore, if someone is building a team quickly, they won't spend time looking for pokemon to fill niches--they'll use what is most obvious and versatile. And genesect is versatile if nothing else.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the significance of the suspect stats. Gensect is undeniably good though.