CAP 4 - Part 12 - Complete Movepool Submissions

[CiteAndPrune]

Thanks so much for pointing that out Korski, I don't know how I could've missed it...

Glad to be of help. It's more interesting with everybody's answers clarifying where you're coming from.


And to capefeather in particular.... I'll put it in hide tags since this is a long reply.

...

---

Perhaps my tone was too harsh. You have your methodology as I have mine, and it's not up to me to judge which is right or wrong. I can admit it's valid and will produce its fair results, especially when you put so much effort into your research, it shows in the movepoll.

But as regards to the special frame... I did read your proposal carefully. Really, I did. I just didn't refer to your competitive concerns because the conservatist in me is opposed to the idea on principle. However, that's not to say I don't see what a threat Aurumoth at +2 Speed (or +2 QD outright) can pose in OU.

The way I see it, however, by that point Aurumoth is fully setup, primed to sweep entire teams. The difficulties and risks taken await their reward. That a bulkier set aiming to reach +2 would be discovered isn't a surprise for me, I took it as something for granted.

Does this mean Quiver Dance on Aurumoth would be broken, if joined by its coverage moves? Well, here we differ in opinion capefeather. When I got to this point along similar reasoning, I concluded 'Aurumoth shouldn't have QD'. And I ended right there.

I didn't go off on a tangent proposing an alternate forme just to experiment 'what if Aurumoth had the boosts but none of the coverage?' You can theorymon that one yourself, but for the CAP process, I don't think pulling everybody into such an experiment is good. Even if the public warmed up to the idea, I'd be concerned about breaking precedent.

But, as I said, that's my inner conservatist speaking.

If you're that confident about this plan, I'll wait until the movepoll with its proposed alternate forme appears in the upcoming poll. It's fun discussing 'what if's' but if I finished this reply asking you for proof that's the best solution, which none of us can provide anyway, I'd start thread hogging. So I'll wait for the results to defend themselves. For what it's worth, I wish you good luck from here on still.

.... hmm, didn't get ninja'ed for once. Cool.

[ThePhalanx]

One quick question. Is Glare outclassed by Thunder Wave as a VGM? TWave is 100% accurate, and can hit Ghost types. However Glare can hit Ground types. I'm asking this because I want to see if I need to remove something from my movepool so I can fit in the correct amount of VGMs.

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat ThePhalanx

One quick question. Is Glare outclassed by Thunder Wave as a VGM? TWave is 100% accurate, and can hit Ghost types. However Glare can hit Ground types. I'm asking this because I want to see if I need to remove something from my movepool so I can fit in the correct amount of VGMs.

No, it isn't. These lists are on-site if you need to look at them.

Also briefly while jotting down movepools on the spreadsheet: Mdevil, you say you have Bug Buzz and Sucker Punch in your explanation, but neither are actually anywhere in your movepool. Furthermore, you've also not counted some moves, such as Sleep Talk, as VGMs where you should have done. Just letting you know - by my count the movepool as you already have it has 38 VGMs, so you may have to remove some stuff to fit Bug Buzz and Sucker Punch in.

EDIT2: @Rediamond: You have 39 VGMs - you failed to count Blizzard as a VGM, I think.

EDIT3: @ Nyktos: You have 37 VGMs, rather than 38.

EDIT: I have a few comments to make later, but I'm only updating the spreadsheet for now.

[Mdevil]

I had a feeling I missed something. I'll re check my written pool and edit that by tommorrow.

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat RavensNation

You left Trick out of my submission on the spreadsheet.

As a note, it helps if you point out where you make a change rather than just posting your entire submission again. But thanks and fixed.

Originally Posted by Fat CiteAndPrune

I'm pretty sure Horn Drill and Sheer Cold are disallowed along with all moves < 70 Accuracy. No Guard + OHKO moves would be a pretty brutal combo (if they weren't specifically unaffected by accuracy modifiers, for the same reason you can't combo Hone Claws + OHKO move over time).

Nope. OHKO moves are banned from being used in OU anyway, so there's not much point disallowing them from movepools.

Plus if the Ubers Council does end up unbanning OHKO moves, AND we get a CAP Ubers ladder, No Guard Aurumoth will be hilarious. And yeah, No Guard does actually make OHKO moves always hit (its effect has nothing to do with stat-related accuracy modifiers).

Aura Sphere in Level Up is a VGM, but not marked as such. I'm concerned about Absorb and Mega Drain as well - while they're generally too weak to matter, BMB explictly stated that all recovery and draining moves were disallowed (otherwise I'd have given Pain Split a chance for sure).

I don't think we need to worry too much about these two. It's not like they have any competitive relevance anyway.

[Mdevil]

My movepool has been fixed at the cost of Pusuit, Cut, and Fly. I was tired during my original post and had done some bad math (had 76 moves.) Also a VGM list has been added for convenience. I could have miscounted again, though so don't take my word at the new 38/75 total.

Edit: I have some free time; going to add the egg move parents.

Edit 2: It took me a bit to figure out the formatting; but I completed the mission.

[srk1214]

So uh... I'm not sure how much longer this thread is gonna be open, but it turns out I may have a submission with extremely limited explanations. At the moment nothing is in my submission, and really, I don't have much more written elsewhere anyway. Alas my 4 exams this week take much, much, much higher precedence. Might stay up late tonight and do some shoddy work just to get something added in before the deadline, since I probably won't get another chance until the 7th, which I assume is much too late.

[Verminator]

I just did a fuckhuge edit to my post, adding explanations and changing a fair amount of shit. It's probably going to be the last version before the final submission.

[uwnim]

I have all the moves I want it to have in my movepool now. Unless someone points out an error, it won't change from its current form. Only thing left to do is add supporting reasoning and explanations.

[capefeather]

I knew people would comment on my tone... :(

The movepool stage has become a weird stage for me. In the past two CAP projects, I had my movepool submission go up against a submission that I did not agree with at all in the final poll, only to lose to my opponent. I won't lie when I say I felt badly about these losses, not only for myself but also for the submissions that I felt were significantly better than the winners, and to which I really wouldn't have minded losing. There has also been the pressure from winning the other two competitive submission contests and trying to pull off that hat trick / turkey. So I apologize for coming off as somewhat hostile to other submissions this time around. I have made an effort to tone down that aspect of my movepool descriptions.

I have also been meaning to make a statement with the whole alternate forme thing. The movepool discussions really left the Quiver Dance issue inconclusive, in my opinion, because each side was arguing from completely different perspectives, one assuming Quiver Dance and saying how un-risky that would be, and the other not assuming Quiver Dance and saying how bad that would be. There is clearly this huge divide that Quiver Dance arguably overcompensates for, when the ideal may require something in between. That was what my proposal was meant to illustrate, as I didn't have much of an opportunity to conduct a more thorough investigation during that time.

All that said, I've taken to investigating the Quiver Dance issue a bit further. To my surprise, I found another check, not in the 70+ scarfers, but in 252 HP Choice Specs Politoed:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. +2 100 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in rain: 357-420 (100.56 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA (custom) Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 225-265 (58.59 - 69.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA (custom) Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 316-374 (82.29 - 97.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA (custom) Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 400-472 (104.16 - 122.91%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb (custom) Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 292-344 (76.04 - 89.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In a way, it makes sense to find a check in an offensive Politoed set, since Politoed is one of the best checks to Aurumoth by design (with respect to the stats). The surprising thing, though, is that it essentially compels QD Aurumoth to run Thunderbolt or Thunder. Moreover, Politoed actually loses if it switches into Tail Glow (multiply the first Bug Buzz calc by 5/3... yeah...) or Swords Dance Aurumoth. This, I suspect, changes a lot.

Those of you who can think back to Necturna may remember that we designated four solid checks for it. This resulted in a Pokémon that was very good, but arguably not top-tier material, and certainly not as broken as people initially thought when they considered Sketch morphing into Shell Smash, Sacred Fire and Spore. And that was when we designated four solid checks to an entire Pokémon. My proposal was meant to make Aurumoth scramble for coverage moves, but maybe it already does this. Without Thunderbolt, Politoed wins (if it hits) and Skarmory becomes annoying. Without Psychic or Ice Beam, the Therians, Dragonite and Salamence are significantly more threatening. Without Focus Blast, Heatran becomes a problem. And if you go Bug Buzz / Thunder(bolt) / Ice Beam? Terrakion and Magnezone murder that. And of course there are always Scizor and Jirachi.

Quiver Dance might still end up being stupid with Illusion and/or Weak Armour. We might still have luck factors deciding matches. Should Quiver Dance be restricted to No Guard? Should I just go with my TM illegality thing? Or should Quiver Dance be dropped? I'm still not sure, and I'm pretty sure that, in the end, no one's sure about this.

I disagree with the notion of comparing Aurumoth to Volcarona and concluding that it's less risky and less rewarding. Like I said in my movepool submission, I think that this is a misleading way of thinking about risk and reward. One of the questions posed in the concept submission is:

• What is the relationship between risk and potential consequences, both positive and negative?

What I've been getting out of this process is that risk and reward aren't independent of each other. A lack of reward is a risk in itself, and a lack of risk is a reward in itself. Treating them differently does not tell the whole story about risk.

I also disagree with the general fixation on Volcarona. We can't just look at successful Pokémon and conclude that we'll learn more if a CAP is not successful than if it's strong as hell. I certainly don't think we'll learn much more if Aurumoth becomes more like Honchkrow or Magmortar. Even Hydreigon is beginning to become a liability because of Genesect.

I also agree with Korski in that I don't think that having one set is necessarily a bad thing, especially if there is a lot of move and ability variation. In fact, that might be a good thing. Predictability is a risk in itself. I'll be honest; I always envisioned Aurumoth having one or two sets with minor variations. Though I haven't said "no" to the notion of multiple sets, I'm not sure we necessarily learn a whole lot by making Aurumoth super-versatile.

It's funny because, at the beginning of this process, I never really imagined that I'd post a serious defense of a sweeper setup move, even if it's not conclusive and I've said as much. My original attitude toward this concept was "aim carefully or die". So it's been interesting to see where Aurumoth has gone so far. Maybe this seems strange coming from the guy who won concept and stats, but it's true.

tl;dr: Sorry for talking like a jerk in my submission. I'm still giving a lot of thought into Quiver Dance and I think it deserves a better look than what we had in the movepool discussions.

At below: I suppose you can, but it might be a little bit weird.

[Mdevil]

Capefeather: Do you mind if I take a quote from your last post and use it in the reasoning for my submission? (I wouldn't ask if it wasn't a submission.)

Edit: the quote(s) were added into the Overall Reasoning section of my movepool; feel free to check it out.

[Rediamond]

Removed Dragon Dance. It makes it fit more in my vision of "wallbreaker/weak armour abuse physical, sweeping special." I also swapped Assisst with Foresight.

[DarkBlazeR]

Originally Posted by Fat CiteAndPrune

Looks fairly solid overall, though the flavor of some moves is hard to justify, particularly Power Gem (especially when Ancientpower exists, too). Guard Swap alone (missing Power Swap) also seems random, and seeing Overheat as an Egg Move but unavailable as a TM is strange. Other than that, good job, and I'm awaiting the final comments.

I forgot to justify Power Gem in my Level Up description. I agree it's a bit of a stretch but it does provide some good flavour in my opinion. Not sure how necessary having Ancientpower is when it learns Silver Wind too, but I'll consider it.

Guard Swap, like I said, is just a fun gimmick I came up with. Yes it's more logical to include it with Power Swap, though keep in mind that it's an Egg move, so it's hardly an integral part of its movepool.

I forgot that Overheat was a TM, haha. That's been fixed.


Anyway, out of interest, when is the deadline? I'm pretty busy with uni stuff at the moment - it would be useful to know so that I can manage my time wisely so I have time to complete my descriptions.

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat DarkBlazeR

Anyway, out of interest, when is the deadline? I'm pretty busy with uni stuff at the moment - it would be useful to know so that I can manage my time wisely so I have time to complete my descriptions.

At the moment, you should really be working to the point that you can call your submission a Final Submission at a minute's notice; I can't specify any particular time beyond "whenever it's convenient". At the moment, a few people seem to have relatively complete movepools, and others don't. Once a majority of people seem happy with what they have, I'll post a 24 hour warning.

That said, I'll probably post said 24 hour warning this evening, as I do think we are now at that stage where we can think about closing up shop (and I do have a pool of almost 20 movepools to choose from).

A few comments:

@Mdevil: You still have 39 VGMs.

@cape: ...gah. You know how much I despise daft events or bizarre mechanics and it's a very wonky solution to a complicated problem, which is annoying as there isn't strictly speaking anything wrong with it. I'll allow it until it's proven that such a thing isn't possible within the bounds of the game (it should well be, but just in case), though this isn't a guarantee of slating by any stretch.

[Mdevil]

Ugh, I'll get right on that.

Edit: Are you sure you're not counting Frustration/ Return or Defend Order/Cosmic power as two because I keep coming up with 38. Do i have an unmarked VGM? You also may have counted Light Screen twice as it repeats but isn't very clearly marked.

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat Mdevil

Ugh, I'll get right on that.

Edit: Are you sure you're not counting Frustration/ Return or Defend Order/Cosmic power as two because I keep coming up with 38. Do i have an unmarked VGM? You also may have counted Light Screen twice as it repeats but isn't very clearly marked.

I rechecked the spreadsheet, turned out I had yours marked as having Superpower, when you actually didn't have it. Apologies. You are correct, you do now have 38 VGMs, so your submission is legal.

[zyrefredric]

I made some changes to my submission just now. In the level-up moves, I removed Extrasensory and added Stored Power. In the TM list, I removed Reflect, Taunt, Overheat and Attract, and added Safeguard. I also added more moves into the Egg moves list, but the VGMs there remain the same.

Hope the changes gets reflected in the spreadsheet bmb. Thanks! Will be adding descriptions later if I have more time, hopefully before this thread gets locked.

Also, can Frustration and Return be counted as one VGM?

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat zyrefredric

Also, can Frustration and Return be counted as one VGM?

Yes, ergo you currently have 29 VGMs.

[capefeather]

One source of frustration for me this time around has been a general lack of opinions from other people as to what they think about Quiver Dance (typically referring to when I ask about it on IRC). I've gotten nothing from the TL, nothing from people I'd particularly trust to advise me on decisions like this, and nothing from just people in general. I'm not holding that against any of you, but I'm just saying. I'm also getting the sense that my attempts to generate some more enlightening discussion on the matter have failed. So I think I'll just go one way or the other on Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance. Right now I'm leaning toward... not putting them on due to concerns about luck-based situations, as well as the historical unpopularity of ability illegalities.

I'll just leave this here for historical purposes:

Special

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I've investigated the effects of a 100 HP / 252 SpA Leftovers Modest Quiver Dance set (156 Spe outruns Choice Scarf Latios at +2 Spe) on common Choice Scarf users that outrun +1 Aurumoth. Here are my findings:

Genesect:
4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 100 HP / 0 Def (custom): 180-212 (46.63 - 54.92%) -- 66.02% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA (custom) Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 253-298 (89.39 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA (custom) Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 221-260 (78.09 - 91.87%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Therian Thundurus:
252 SpA Thundurus-T Thunder vs. +1 100 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 214-253 (55.44 - 65.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 Psychic obviously OHKOes back

Terrakion:
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 100 HP / 0 Def (custom): 330-390 (85.49 - 101.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Keldeo:
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +1 100 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 196-232 (50.77 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Keldeo OHKOes with Rain and Stealth Rock up, but the setup goes through otherwise

Latios:
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 100 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 231-273 (59.84 - 70.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Switching any of these Choice Scarf users directly into Aurumoth is, on the face of it, a very bad idea, since it can set up +2 on three of them, and neither Terrakion nor Keldeo is a safe switch-in to Aurumoth's STAB Psychic. Terrakion needs Stealth Rock for an 80% OHKO probability (nullified by No Guard), and Keldeo needs Rain and Stealth Rock to achieve the same (again nullified by No Guard). None of these stand a chance against +2 Aurumoth. This is huge when Aurumoth can set up on a large portion of OU without being KOed or paralyzed, with notable exceptions being Scizor and Jirachi. Skarmory can work if Aurumoth doesn't have Thunderbolt, and Magnezone can work if Aurumoth doesn't have Focus Blast. Illusion isn't even that necessary here, though let's look at what Aurumoth could cloak into, anyway:

Cloyster
Dragonite
Gyarados
Salamence
Therian Thundurus
Therian Tornadus

With respect to switch-ins that could stand a good chance against Quiver Dance Aurumoth, these disguises pair quite well. Nothing is a great switch into all of them, except maybe Jirachi against Therian Tornadus. This paints a picture of a set that still probably isn't broken, but may be providing too much reward for modest risk, unlike any other setup move. Even if a lack of Focus Blast produces some more checks, I don't want Aurumoth to obsess over Focus Blast outside of No Guard.

All that said, I understand where pro-QD people are coming from. The above Choice Scarf users can deal with Aurumoth quite easily without the awesome power of Quiver Dance. Maybe Quiver Dance Aurumoth just needs more checks? I find it very awkward to resort to restricting TM moves to events or egg moves, just to make them illegal with abilities or other moves. This is where my proposal comes in:

• Aurumoth gets an alternate forme with the same typing and stats, which gets Quiver Dance but loses access to TMs and egg moves. It would be similar to the Rotom and Kyurem formes, except the moveset would be wiped and replaced with Quiver Dance. Alternatively, it could just be some invisible trigger, but the alternate forme seems more realistic.
• Aurumoth can revert to its "usual" self, but doing this converts Quiver Dance to Dragon Dance.

Remember the "coverage risk" idea used to justify No Guard? This is the opposite of that. Get Quiver Dance, lose almost every move you might care about. I bet you're looking back at the level and tutor pools now. Everything makes so much more sense, now, doesn't it? This is the one interpretation of risk that everyone seems to agree on and I'm totally exploiting it!

I can already see one of the retorts to this. Isn't this just making Aurumoth even less rewarding than Volcarona, for the same amount of risk? This is where we realize that distinguishing between risk and reward as we have done up to now may not have been the best way to look at things. In fact, it seems pretty fallacious now. This is, in my view, exactly what we should be doing with setup sweeper risk. There is now quite a significant difference between how Aurumoth plays and how Volcarona plays (in case the difference wasn't big enough for you before). Even if the offensive coverage can be made similar, Volcarona is still king in this area. On the other hand, Aurumoth doesn't take 50% on a Stealth Rock switch-in, to be promptly murdered by Choice Scarf users or whatever else. On a mutant third hand, QD Aurumoth has only Wish (not even Rest) to go on, while Volcarona has Roost, Substitute and Rest.

I'm aware that people will dislike this proposal for various reasons. An alternate forme may add yet another layer to the "pre-evo process" for CAP 4, on top of what is looking to become a three-stager. It's a grossly unprecedented twist on what is being commonly interpreted as a pseudo-legendary. It will probably be a massive headache for Doug, as he may have to accommodate another forme (though it doesn't have to have an entirely different set of pages). Some may see it as an unnecessary accommodation for Quiver Dance, despite the very good arguments generally in favour of Quiver Dance. In other words, it's very weird and very uncharted. I have wrestled with going through with this myself, while the project limbered through the movepool discussions and even the current stage. Yet, I think that, ultimately, this is a very legitimate place to take the CAP 4 project, whether I go through with it in the final submission or not. I hope you see where I'm coming from as I embody the very concept in this part of my submission.



EVEN THE ROTOM MAKES SENSE NOW

[Yarnus of Bethany]

I just want to give my support for Capefeather's proposal

[bugmaniacbob]

24 hour warning

I think it's about time to wrap this up. Simply post "Final Submission" somewhere in the post containing your movepool and make sure that the spreadsheet is consistent with your movepool.

Good luck to all.

[RavensNation]

Added Wish to level-up moves. Removed Whirlwind from Move Tutor moves.

I felt like the riskiness of my movepool outweighed the reward, so I powered it up a little more by letting Aurumoth learn Wish to try to recover some health for itself. Also provides solid Wish support for its party members with that 110 base HP. I left Healing Wish on the list because it provides additional support by fully restoring a party member rather than healing only by 50% of Aurumoth's HP.

I decided to remove Whirlwind mostly because Aurumoth has better things to do than try phazing opponents. The downside to it is that now it has no way of stopping set-up sweepers by imitating a counter and phazing, though Illusion may still do the job of forcing the opponent out.

[capefeather]

I could have sworn I posted about adding Agility... but yeah it's in my movepool.

[Verminator]

Job's a good 'un. I axed Light Screen in favour of Will-O-Wisp and added a bunch of TM and Tutor moves as non-VGMs to pad out the movepool. Now it's good to go.

bmb, I noticed one error on the spreadsheet. It said that I'm not using Pursuit, but I am. Otherwise it's fine, with the exception of the aforementioned change I just made.

[Mdevil]

I'm pretty sure I accidently counted repeated moves in my total moves. Technically, right now, I'm at 38/72. Any suggestion for 3 flavor moves?