Balanced Hackmons

[Arizona]

Originally Posted by Fat DarkBlazeR

Groudon @ Choice Band
Trait: Prankster
Adamant Nature
- Trick
- Nature Power
- Head Smash / Stone Edge
- Spore / Heart Swap / Recover

Hey, you were just telling me about this set! Seconding everything DarkBlazer said about their extremely novel Groudon. Trick and Choice items are both seriously neglected on the BH ladder. I'll admit, in a world of super set-up sweepers, it's easy to forget just how hard pokemon can hit off the bat, no set up required. This Groudon definitely caught me by surprise, and I won't soon pigeonhole enemy Groudon into the Heart Swap category again. I was fortunate to not get any of my supporters tricked, but it's just another underused yet devastating tactic. Definitely a set to watch--and prepare for. This set makes Arceus Flying look viable, heh.

EDIT

Originally Posted by Fat DarkBlazeR

Addressing Shedinja - it is totally dependent on team support to be usable. It incredibly easy to deal with due to all forms of passive damage OHKOing it. However, I do disagree with your comparison between Electivire and Shedinja. Electivire is merely a bad Pokemon that brings little to the table. Shedinja is essentially the epitome of high-risk, high-reward. If you can somehow remove all passive damage from play, nothing can put you into a checkmate position as well as Shedinja can. In fact, the threat of it is why all teams have to run some form of passive damage in order to be viable.

I only intended to compare 'vire and Shedy insofar as IMO Shedinja's usage is far above it's value. Of course Shedy can dissemble certain teams like nothing else in the game, but flipping around your last statement, all viable teams run passive damage. Sand and Hail are the hardest counters, but hazards alone pose an issue and are on every team. The initial fight is largely to establish hazards while denying your opponent, and if you win Shedinja works ok, but if you lose it is worthless; it's a "win-more" pokemon. There are pokemon to capitalize on a hazard advantage that can also help you out of a disadvantage. Shedy never can. What's more, even once one succeeds in getting Shedinja out--no easy task--you have an additional hurdle of getting past the Giratina. Good pokemon have enough trouble getting past it without needing serious team support just to stay alive. Shedinja may have a niche while Electivire has nothing, but IMO it is a niche that is worthless.

[The_Eevee_General]

Originally Posted by Fat DarkBlazeR

Groudon @ Choice Band
Trait: Prankster
Adamant Nature
- Trick
- Nature Power
- Head Smash / Stone Edge
- Spore / Heart Swap / Recover

I like to run mine with Coil in the last spot to augment Stone Edge's less-than-desirable accuracy. More often than not, Chansey/Blissey shows up, so I always make sure I can counter my own Groudon (usually Unaware Lugia.)

A similar Trick set I've run with some success is:

Magnet Pull @ Choice Band
-Trick
-Shift Gear / Substitute
-Nature Power
-Close Combat / Hi Jump Kick / Stone Edge

You can play around with the moves depending on various factors. Without Stone Edge you're walled cold by Lugia/Flying-types. Giratina laughs at Hi Jump Kick.

I like to use Nature Power over Earthquake for the extra PP. It does make a difference.

[Arcticblast]

Why Magnet Pull? Steel types are really rare in Balanced Hackmons, and you don't even beat the best one (Escavalier, who is also second most common). I guess you beat Dialga, but there's no way in hell you're switching on it, since it's usually using Contrary.

[The_Eevee_General]

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

Why Magnet Pull? Steel types are really rare in Balanced Hackmons, and you don't even beat the best one (Escavalier, who is also second most common). I guess you beat Dialga, but there's no way in hell you're switching on it, since it's usually using Contrary.

Oops I guess I didn't include the backstory on that one. It was an Imposter-check since I had a boosting Steel-type on my team that the opponent would send in their Chansey/Blissey after and I would trap and kill it with Terrakion. Once the Imposter was out of the way I could Trick away my Choice Band and set up some Shift Gears as needed. I played in Sand so of course it had a +1 SpD boost too.

[Wobble]

The only thing worse than Shedinja that is used is FEAR Swinub, which is even more helpless, and unlike Shedinja is weak to multi-hit.

There's also that awful Destiny Bond Sunkern I saw a couple of times several months ago.

[nyph]

Pretty cool set I made a few hours ago, haven't got much chance to test it much but so far it has done quite decently.

Deoxys-Speed @ Leftovers
Trait: Moody
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Magic Coat
- Stored Power
- Leech Seed

Using it as a lead you spam magic coat against enemy Deoxys-S, or sub against attackers. Leech seed allows you to beat sheddy and recover sub health and stall for more boosts. Stored power owns stuff after a few turns of stalling. Potentially could use taunt or spore instead of magic coat, but I haven't tested that.

[The Dark Hero]

Originally Posted by Fat The_Eevee_General

I like to run mine with Coil in the last spot to augment Stone Edge's less-than-desirable accuracy. More often than not, Chansey/Blissey shows up, so I always make sure I can counter my own Groudon (usually Unaware Lugia.)

A similar Trick set I've run with some success is:

Magnet Pull @ Choice Band
-Trick
-Shift Gear / Substitute
-Nature Power
-Close Combat / Hi Jump Kick / Stone Edge

You can play around with the moves depending on various factors. Without Stone Edge you're walled cold by Lugia/Flying-types. Giratina laughs at Hi Jump Kick.

I like to use Nature Power over Earthquake for the extra PP. It does make a difference.

Sand Rush is much better for Terrakion.

[Arizona]

Originally Posted by Fat nyph

Pretty cool set I made a few hours ago, haven't got much chance to test it much but so far it has done quite decently.

Deoxys-Speed @ Leftovers
Trait: Moody
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Magic Coat
- Stored Power
- Leech Seed

Using it as a lead you spam magic coat against enemy Deoxys-S, or sub against attackers. Leech seed allows you to beat sheddy and recover sub health and stall for more boosts. Stored power owns stuff after a few turns of stalling. Potentially could use taunt or spore instead of magic coat, but I haven't tested that.

For an ability banned in Ubers, you sure don't see much Moody in BH. Just a demonstration of the power level. A bit of theorymoning on your Deo-S set.

No lead can 6-0 a competent team often enough to be viable. That said, aggressive Contrary and Simple leads can be quite powerful because your opponent cannot always read the lead accurately, giving you the chance to set up enough to 2HKO their counter and cripple the second, or switch to your wall, assuming you built an Impostor resistant team where your pokes wall each other. This kind of all out attacking with the intent of blasting through a counter early while your opponent is blind requires coverage of multiple moves and fast, reliable set up. Moody is too slow and inconsistent and Stored Power isn't enough coverage.

Random Darks, Whirlwind, Perish Song, Lead Chansey, and most commonly of all Prankster Heart Swap will cause trouble, and your opponent has plenty of time to get to one of these counters as you repeatedly cross your fingers, hoping your Moody poke will cooperate while you blindly Sub or Coat. This Deoxys doesn't seem capable of blowing holes in a healthy team--rather, it seems better left unrevealed until the unknowing counters have been removed, when it can set up unstoppably.

Using it as a late game sweeper rather than a lead, you could probably switch Magic Coat and/or Leech Seed with Protect, Aura Sphere, or Bug Buzz, and possibly change the forme to Attack while you're at it. In fact, if it isn't a lead, speed is less important too, so you could use Mewtwo, Lugia, or Jirachi in a similar way and actually have decent subs. Switching pokemon entirely would be an extreme move in OU, but here a pokemon is as much a moveset and ability as it is a species.

Of course, if your experience is that this Deoxys-S crushes everything, that supercedes all this.

[lokt]

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

I've been happier recently running magic bounce to aid set up and running toxic to beat shedinja. (although magic coat has more pps than toxic, so perhaps something gimmicky like poison gas ?_?)

I'd never run toxic on a sweeper for shedinja, leech seed allows you to kill it w/out lum berry getting in the way.

Metagross @ Leftovers
Trait: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Careful Nature
- Perish Song
- Meteor Mash
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
This set is amazing. I've used it my rain stall team and it beats many threats in the bh metagame, including contrary, dragons w/out ground coverage(most carry hjk), stored power sweepers, slaking, and most bulky sweepers.

[nyph]

Originally Posted by Fat Arizona

No lead can 6-0 a competent team often enough to be viable.

This set isn't really designed to 6-0, just to give you an early game advantage, and potentially a late game sweep.

Originally Posted by Fat Arizona

Moody is too slow and inconsistent and Stored Power isn't enough coverage.

Stored power has amazing coverage. The only thing it can't rip apart is dark types, which get subseeded.

Originally Posted by Fat Arizona

Random Darks, Whirlwind, Perish Song, Lead Chansey, and most commonly of all Prankster Heart Swap will cause trouble

Prankster heart swap gives you a free switch to a counter if you switch on it, potentially giving you huge momentum. Whirlwind gets magic coated, and also misses heaps when you have evasion. Lead chansey only gets 5 pp, which makes it useless. Darks get leech seeded.

Originally Posted by Fat Arizona

and your opponent has plenty of time to get to one of these counters as you repeatedly cross your fingers, hoping your Moody poke will cooperate while you blindly Sub or Coat.

This is a subseeder, not a moody sweeper.

Originally Posted by Fat Arizona

This Deoxys doesn't seem capable of blowing holes in a healthy team--rather, it seems better left unrevealed until the unknowing counters have been removed, when it can set up unstoppably.

Again, not really a sweeper. A subseeder with sweeping potential.

Originally Posted by Fat Arizona

Using it as a late game sweeper rather than a lead, you could probably switch Magic Coat and/or Leech Seed with Protect, Aura Sphere, or Bug Buzz, and possibly change the forme to Attack while you're at it. In fact, if it isn't a lead, speed is less important too, so you could use Mewtwo, Lugia, or Jirachi in a similar way and actually have decent subs. Switching pokemon entirely would be an extreme move in OU, but here a pokemon is as much a moveset and ability as it is a species.

Speed is extremely useful for subseeding. Once again, coverage is not needed.

Originally Posted by Fat Arizona

Of course, if your experience is that this Deoxys-S crushes everything, that supercedes all this.

Does any pokemon crush anything? Not anymore really. This set is a subseeder that is also potentially a threatening sweeper. It is no pure power slaking or shadow tag trickster, or assist Kyu-B.

[Imanalt]

Originally Posted by Fat lokt

I'd never run toxic on a sweeper for shedinja, leech seed allows you to kill it w/out lum berry getting in the way.

i was using toxic because magic coat doesnt kill me using it with gengar

[Tracey509]

Mold Breaker is so anti-meta in this since everything has Magic Bounce.

[Salamence97]

I've been trying a pretty fun team lately on Hackmons-

Deoxys-S @Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: Everything maxed
Nature: Timid
Trick
Magic Coat
U-turn
Spore
My lead, TrickScarf Deo-S. If the opponent locks himself into a non-attacking move, the game is virtually over. If I get taunted/Skill-Swapped, I just U-turn out.

Lugia @Lefties
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: Everything maxed
Nature: Timid
Substitute
Cotton Guard
Amnesia
Baton Pass
This thing passes on STUPIDLY bulky substitutes. Basically just come in, Sub, CottGuard,Amnesia, Pass.

Giratina @Lefties
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: Everything maxed
Nature: Timid
Tail Glow
Agility
Magic Coat
Baton Pass
Once behind a Sub with doubled defenses, I start setting up with my offensive stat booster. Two Tail Glows, one Agility, Pass.

Reshiram @Life Orb
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs : Everything maxed
Nature: Modest
Fusion Flare
Spacial Rend
Aura Sphere
Roost
Finally I pass to Reshiram, who then totally goes to town with doubled defenses, doubled speed and maxed SpAttk. Perfect two move coverage with Aura Sphere for the guaranteed OHKO on Blissey (lol) and Roost for that LO recoil. Turboblaze is chosen as nothing annoys me more than random Wonder Guard Spiritombs/Sturdy Shedinjas.

Feel free to suggest any changes.
Btw, the other two Pokes on my team are Imposter ScarfBliss and SD Regigigas.

[Arcticblast]

This is Balanced Hackmons, not Regular Hackmons. Shadow Tag, Wonder Guard, OHKO moves and Pure Power are all banned in Balanced Hackmons.

Scarf is the worst ImposterBliss set though.

[Salamence97]

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

This is Balanced Hackmons, not Regular Hackmons. Shadow Tag, Wonder Guard, OHKO moves and Pure Power are all banned in Balanced Hackmons.

Scarf is the worst ImposterBliss set though.

Well, sorry for that. I just couldn't find the other thread (if there is one for pure Hackmons).
Also, a general question- how good will ExtremeKiller Arceus be in this meta? Not the standard, something like -

Arceus @LO
Max EVs
Adamant
Magic Bounce (?)

Shift Gear/Dragon Dance/Shell Smash (?)
Return/ESpeed
Close Combat
Shadow Force/Crunch

[DryBoo]

Scarf is the worst ImposterBliss set though.

Hold on now. ScarfBliss stops those annoying speed ties from occuring. Otherwise you can end up praying on a speed tie to win against a sweeper and maybe lose the tie and get swept by the very sweeper you transfromed to stop. Its not the best, but its one of the few reasons to use Blissey over Chansey (Scarf, Lum and Lefties).

[tehy]

What other imposterbliss set would you even RUN? It's not like this meta is full of bulky threats that need all of their moves. Sure, lefties and such will let you sweep much more effectively, but you don't even guarantee revenge kills. Any other imposter bliss and you may as well flip a coin.

[Arizona]

Originally Posted by Fat nyph

...

---

This set isn't really designed to 6-0, just to give you an early game advantage, and potentially a late game sweep.

Stored power has amazing coverage. The only thing it can't rip apart is dark types, which get subseeded.

Prankster heart swap gives you a free switch to a counter if you switch on it, potentially giving you huge momentum. Whirlwind gets magic coated, and also misses heaps when you have evasion. Lead chansey only gets 5 pp, which makes it useless. Darks get leech seeded.

This is a subseeder, not a moody sweeper.

Again, not really a sweeper. A subseeder with sweeping potential.

Speed is extremely useful for subseeding. Once again, coverage is not needed.

Does any pokemon crush anything? Not anymore really. This set is a subseeder that is also potentially a threatening sweeper. It is no pure power slaking or shadow tag trickster, or assist Kyu-B.

I get it, I get it, lol, it's a subseeder primarily. I didn't get the memo from your first post since Leech Seed's purpose was described as: "beat sheddy and recover sub health and stall for more boosts", 2.5 of which are on the face of it concerned with facilitating a Stored Power sweep. Anyway I would be very interested to hear accounts of this set in use. I am sure it can be effective, but I am also sure no one can always sub on an attack, magic coat on hazards and whirlwind, switch on a Heart Swap, hit Leech Seeds, and get relevant Moody boosts.

Moreover, Dark Bouncers or Pranksters with Sub cannot get subseeded, Heart Swap still forces it out even if you predict it (and you can just as easily assert the opponent makes a double switch, getting their own huge momentum), Chansey still reveals the set, i.e. not useless, and Perish Song cannot be Coated. Oh, and I neglected to mention multi-hit moves. All this theory about it's virtues is well and good, but it would be more substantial if we had some data about how it works in practice.

[Arcticblast]

ImposterBliss isn't best as a revenge killer, it's much better as a sort of utility Pokemon. There's no better feeling than switching Blissey into Deoxys-S and having the opponent's Magic Bounce work against it. Blissey can stall out almost every defensive Pokemon in the game (if it doesn't have Leech Seed!) with a Lum Berry. It can switch into a Baton Pass chain, pick up its own boost as the opponent reacts, and Baton Pass to your own sweeper. It's an awesome scout, too - can't figure out your opponent's set? Switch in Blissey and use it yourself! Sure, Scarf Blissey is a great revenge killer, but revenge killing isn't what Blissey should be doing.

As a side note, switching Blissey into a Sub or Imposter with a Scarf forces it out, but a Lum Blissey can take the time to support the team (or just use Final Gambit if it has it).

[Alan T Hick]

I've been using this lately.



Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Nature: Calm
- Psycho Shift
- Cosmic Power
- Recover
- Stored Power

Basically, it's a recreation of the standard Siliglyph set. Psycho Shift works really well, because it ignores magic bounce, allowing you to hit a lot of mons that use the ability to stall. And the Toxic Heals supplement already formidable bulk. Also, immunity to spore is a good thing. Stored Power is there in case it stacks up enough boosts to do some damage while stalling.

[Keldeo DeArtagnan]

Will CAP pokemon ever be allowed in balanced hackmons? I really don't see why not, since you're using illegal movesets anyway.

[Arcticblast]

CAP Pokemon don't exist ingame. All sets in Balanced Hackmons can be obtained ingame through the use of Action Replay or Gameshark (hence its original name, Sharkmons).

So no, CAP Pokemon will not be allowed.

[MrCookie]

Dusclops @Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 hp/252 def /252 sDef /252 spd
Nature: Timid
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Heart Swap
- Baton Pass

This is not giratina. Giratina is a wall, this guy is for subseeding. It takes advantages of dusclops terrible hp and amazing defenses and the fact htat almost everything in bh has huge hp in order to gain back a huge amount of hp every turn. Sub is there for sub seeding combo and heart swap and baton pass are to discourage stuff from setting up on it

[MrCookie]

Originally Posted by Fat DarkBlazeR

Gengar @ Spooky Plate
Trait: Normalize
Timid Nature
- Skill Swap
- Shell Smash
- Judgment
- Aura Sphere

I don't take credit for this set. I've seen quite a few people use it, yet it hasn't actually been posted here yet, so I thought it would be worth sharing it. This is an extremely deadly sweeper that can easily destroy whole teams. The concept is that you use Skill Swap on something slower to give them Normalize, making them unable you harm you at all. Use Shell Smash as they switch, and tear them apart with unresisted Ghost + Fighting coverage. Judgment is not only stronger than Shadow Ball, but also means that Imposter Chansey is unable to revenge kill you - this is huge considering how it stops all other setup sweepers caught without a Sub. Unaware Arceus is basically the only counter to this, which is very uncommon at the moment anyway.

Yay that was my set. its gimmicky but fun

[verbatim]

Originally Posted by Fat MrCookie

Dusclops @Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 hp/252 def /252 sDef /252 spd
Nature: Timid
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Heart Swap
- Baton Pass

This is not giratina. Giratina is a wall, this guy is for subseeding. It takes advantages of dusclops terrible hp and amazing defenses and the fact htat almost everything in bh has huge hp in order to gain back a huge amount of hp every turn. Sub is there for sub seeding combo and heart swap and baton pass are to discourage stuff from setting up on it

What distinguishes Dusclops from say, Shuckle, who combines an even lower HP stat and similar defenses (plus the extra item slot gained by not needing Eviolite)?