Spinblockers (Ghost-types)

Dark Fallen Angel · Nov 11th, 2012, 3:29:36 PM

approved by pocket, harsha, birkal and haunter

SPINBLOCKERS

~~Ignore the Darkrai on the picture~~

Spinblockers are arguably the best way to avoid your opponent getting rid of your hazards. The only pokémon that can do this are, of course, Ghost-types, as they are immune to Normal-type attacks, including Rapid Spin. It's normally associated with stall teams, as they need to keep hazards up, as they lack offensive presence and must make the opponent take the most passive damage possible. However, spinblocking is also good for offensive teams that want the opponent taking more hazard damage and giving their sweepers an easier time.

That said, there are some problems with spinblocking. For example: There is a lack of Ghost-types that can fit on almost all teams; all of them have a flaw that prevent this. For example, Gengar and Sableye are frail, Jellicent lacks offensive presence, and Chandelure is (ironically) weak to Stealth Rock and vulnerable to all hazards. If you detect a potential pursuiter on your opponent's team, you will need prediction if you don't want to lose your spinblocker. Also, there are some other ways to remove hazards or prevent them from being spinned, that don't require spinblockers, such as Magic Bounce, or using Rocky Helmet on something like Ferrothorn or Deoxys-D. They somewhat reduce the need to use a Ghost-type.

This doesn't mean that spinblocking is not an efficient strategy; preventing the spin of hazards can cost a game. For example, if your opponent's weather inducer is at hazard KO range (generally 12% - Stealth Rock damage when neutral), you have effectively won the weather war as long as you prevent the hazard from being spinned.

Some examples of spinblockers:

Gengar

Sets

Gengar is a good spinblocker for offensive teams because it can pose an offensive threat by itself. It is quite versatile; can pull off a variety of sets, most of them wich involve Substitute. However, its frailty means that Gengar will die to most neutral attacks. Also, it is quite vulnerable to Pursuit if not behind a Substitute, but Focus Blast can defeat a common Pursuiter, Tyranitar.

Jellicent

Sets

Jellicent tends to be the most durable spinblocker as it packs reliable recovery, but unlike Sableye, it actually has good defenses. It has an ability that prevents your opponent from spamming Water-type attacks with impunity, and Jellicent can also stall out many defensive threats with a combination of Taunt, Will-O-Wisp (or Toxic) and Recover.

Sableye

Sets

Sableye at first glance seems to be a pathetic Pokémon. Even though its tipying gives him no weakness, due to its frailty, Sableye is 2HKOed or OHKOed by almost all attacks. However, thanks to Prankster, Sableye can be an annonying Pokémon to face. Depending of the conditions, it can stall out many opponents, and can actually be difficult to KO because of priority Recover. Thanks to Will-O-Wisp, it is almost impossible to defeat him with a physical attacker unless it packs power to OHKO Sableye even when burned. Unfortunately, Sableye is still frail even with defensive investiment, and usually dies to most special attacks due to them not being affected by burns.

Golurk

Sets

Golurk has 2 niches. First, it is the only pokémon in the game that can setup Stealth Rock AND spinblock at same time! The second is that Golurk is one of the best counters to Terrakion, a top-threat that ironically has counters only on lower tiers. But hanks to its Ground typing, Golurk loses to Starmie and Tentacruel, two common spinners, as they are Water-types.

Chandelure

Sets

Chandelure is a rather interesting spinblocker. Like almost all others, it also has a unique typing, on its case, Ghost/Fire. Its ability means that Chandelure has 3 immunities to switch-in, besides its resistances. However, its Fire typing means that it can also potentially lose to two spinblockers, Starmie and Tentacruel, 1x1. Chandelure is (ironically) weak to Stealth Rock, and vulnerable to Spikes. For these reasons, Chandelure isn't generally considered a good spinblocker. But it is still a great Pokémon, and one for wich exists the most speculation due to its hidden ability, Shadow Tag, wich will potentially make Chandelure a Uber pokémon.

Rotom

Sets

Rotom retains the characteristic that was inherent to its -A forms; it's a Ghost-type. It is the only Ghost-type that can keep momentum, thanks to Volt Switch, and it has a great typing. However, Rotom is weak, frail and is not especially fast even with Choice Scarf, as it fails to outspeed some important threats. Despite not being as vulnerable to Tyranitar as other spinblockers, you need to be careful, as Volt Switch cannot avoid Pursuit if Rotom doesn't predict Tyranitar coming in. The same is valid to all other Pursuiters.

Froslass

Sets

Froslass has an interesting niche. Like Golurk, Frosslass can setup hazards while spinblocking, but the hazard that Froslass can setup is Spikes. By forcing the opponent to attack, Froslass can then use Destiny Bond and kill their spinner, leaving all the opponent's team vulnerable to Spikes for the rest of match. However, like Chandelure, Frosslass is ironically weak to hazards, and she is very frail and unfortunately has a horrible Ice typing. Any Steel-type will wall and/or defeat Froslass. Scizor is the best example as it can Bullet Punch Froslass before she can use Destiny Bond. Tyranitar can also checkmate Froslass with Crunch and Pursuit, but if it isn't using Choice Scarf, Frosslass may use Destiny Bond and get a free dead Tyranitar.

Cofagrigus

Sets

Cofagrigus, unlike most other known Ghost-types lacks a secondary typing. This leaves him with few resistances/immunities to abuse, but at least Cofagrigus doesn't gain common weakness. It has a shallow support movepool, but at least it gets the options that it needs; although its HP is lacking, it has an extremely good physical defense, and a respectable special defense. With max investiment in physical defense and Will-O-Wisp, Cofagrigus has a better physical bulk than even Skarmory. It can, however, also run a Calm Mind set, however that set is generally overshadowed by Keldeo, Jirachi and other Pokémon that may run better CM sets; what Cofagrigus has over them is a good physical bulk.

Roie · Nov 11th, 2012, 3:33:10 PM

It is worth mentioning Rotom is the only ghost who can also voltswitch.

NoUserName · Nov 11th, 2012, 3:38:28 PM

An interesting thing almost new in this generation is pseudo-spinblock with consists of killing the spinner when it uses Rapid Spin. This is achieved with Rocky Helmet and/or Iron Barbs/Rough Skin.
Because the fact when using Rapid Spin, if the users dies when using the attack, the hazards won't be removed.

Famous mons which may do this strategy are Ferrothorn, Garchomp and Rocky Helmet users, normally the latter two and Deoxys-D.

An interesing strategy, while not than reliable than having a Ghost, it's an option when a Ghost type doesn't fit with the team. Also the indirect damage helps to wear down the spinner if it doesn't die.

Rocky Helmet takes away a crazy 1/6 HP while Rough Skin/Iron Barbs 1/8.

BlackLight · Nov 11th, 2012, 3:41:19 PM

Froslass deserves a spot in the OP as the only spinblocker that can lay down Spikes as well. Its low offences and average bulk hurt it, but it can be really annoying because its movepool is perfect for what it does. Sub+Cursed Body shenanigans, TWave, and Destiny Bond are all notable.
While its not a ghost, Ferrothorn is an incredibly annoying anti-spinner, as it hurts opponents that spin against it with Iron Barbs, and those that don't spin can be set up against with Spikes and Leech Seed.

NoUserName · Nov 11th, 2012, 3:48:00 PM

Why some people prefer using Chandelure as an Spinblocker with its disadvantages?

Also Golurk is nice because it's the only ghost which can setup SR and also it's the best checks to Terrakion.

Scarfwynaut · Nov 11th, 2012, 3:49:03 PM

If you are mentioning... Golurk Chandelure and Rotom-N then the OP should also mention Duskclops and Cofagrigus, both pokemon which a few stall users, including myself, have used to some degree of success. Both are solid walls that can fill a great niche in a stall team, also they are both effective at countering a few threats in OU like Terrakion.

At the moment I am not on a computer where I can export the sets I have used, if you need me to I can pull them up later.

One could also make a case for Spirtomb, but meh, Sableye is pretty much better.

Lavos Spawn · Nov 11th, 2012, 3:55:29 PM

I made a Rain semi-stall team back in the days of BW1 that actually performed rather well utilized Scarf Rotom as a spinblocker and revenge killer. It definitely still does its job well, as evidenced by when I tried it out on the Showdown ladder a few days ago and did very well with it. Nobody really expects it, nobody prepares for it, and it can really screw over offensive teams that rely on spinning, or Sun teams with Forretress or whatever.

However, if you're going to include Rotom in the OP, as Scarfwynaut said, I think you should also include Cofagrigus (who I also used on that same Rain team before discovering Rotom), and also Spiritomb, a Pokemon that's extremely obnoxious in this metagame to Starmie in particular because of its great SDef and access to Pursuit, not to mention it doesn't have a single type weakness. I don't agree with adding Dusclops, it has great defenses but its HP is so low and its movepool so limited that it doesn't really beat any spinner except maybe Forretress.

PenguinX · Nov 11th, 2012, 3:59:58 PM

I've been using this a bit today and its pretty good:

Sableye @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Sunny Day
- Will-o-Wisp
- Recover
- Taunt / Foul Play

Counterteaming standard rain seems to be the new cool thing to do, so I just theorymonned this and it ended up being pretty good. Prankster Sunny Day is an excellent way to really screw up Specs Politoed / Keldeo in rain that come in assuming they'll force you out. In terms of actually spinblocking, Sunny Day means Sableye isn't really threatened by Starmie and Tentacruel in the rain as much, although switching in on Starmie expecting to spinblock then Sunny Day and live HPump is still very ballsy; you do get KOd if you switch in on a Hydro Pump. Biggest problem this Sableye really has is using Sunny Day vs Defensive Politoed expecting it to be offensive, and just taking a Toxic to the face. As a result leading with it isn't really a good idea since you really need to scout their Politoed set for this thing to be effective.

I've been using this on a Hippowdown Balanced team (or "semi-stall", whatever), but the weather doesn't clash at all. You only use Sunny Day vs rain teams 99% of the time and its much better to have Sun up than sand against those teams. Against sun teams you obviously don't need to use Sunny Day to weaken water attacks or anything, so you are only ever using Sunny Day against teams where you don't need sandstorm up.

Sunny Day is obviously a dead slot against any teams without Drizzle or offense with water-types (like Deo-d teams with Keldeo or Gyarados or something), but its a damn sight better than a lot of the other options people are using in that slow (lol confuse ray) and its a really good way of messing around with the most popular team archetype in the game.

Dracule Mihawk · Nov 11th, 2012, 4:01:33 PM

I would agree Cofag should be included in the OP, I have used to it moderate success and I believe Choice Specs made an excellent team with it. But anyway, on the topic of spinblockers I have to say my favourite has to be Sdef Jellicent. I've used Gengar and Sableye extensively, but to be honest they are nuked by Starmie and Tentacruel, two common spinners, even more so than Donphan. Starmie can destroy Gengar with a psychic STAB, while Sableye falls to rain boosted pumps or surfs. Sdef Jelli for me is the best answer to most spinners, apart from the rare orb thunder Starmie who 2khos jellicent regardless and sub toxic cruel. But Jellicent lacks any good offensive presence, and can be quite a momentum killer. Gengar is the opposite, it's bulk isn't that great but it is fast and has a good offensive presence. To me Jellicent has been the consistent spin blocker for me, next to gengar. I have yet to try dusclops though but I'm not too sure about it. It might have killer defenses, but the HP stat is lacking.

Edit: Penguin X's set seems quite good, and answers starmie. Seems quite a good troll as well to screw over rain teams. I need to try that soon !

RabidChipmunk · Nov 11th, 2012, 4:12:42 PM

My current HO team uses Gengar as a spinblocker, because as you said, he's one of the few spinblockers who can maintain offensive momentum. My only problem with him so far is that he loses almost 100% of the time to Starmie, who outspeeds any non-Choice Scarf Gengar and OHKO's with Psychic. Gengar also has problems with Tentacruel, who has the SpD to tank Shadow Balls for a good while, and can hit Gengar with both Scald and Ice Beam, meaning he won't be forced out by Disable.

All that aside, Gengar is a monster and a godsend for most offensive teams. 'Dat base 110 speed means he can outspeed the plethora of base 108's crowding OU, and his combination of Ghost-typing and Levitate means he has plenty of opportunities to switch in. My favorite Gengar set so far has been his Sub/Disable set, as he can force switches on a lot of Pokemon who only have one move to hit Gengar with, such as Terrakion or certain Rapid Spinners, forcing them to eat entry hazards while he either sets up a brand new Sub or unleashes a mighty Shadow Ball/Focus Blast.

Dark Fallen Angel · Nov 11th, 2012, 4:29:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat NoUserName

An interesting thing almost new in this generation is pseudo-spinblock with consists of killing the spinner when it uses Rapid Spin. This is achieved with Rocky Helmet and/or Iron Barbs/Rough Skin.
Because the fact when using Rapid Spin, if the users dies when using the attack, the hazards won't be removed.

Famous mons which may do this strategy are Ferrothorn, Garchomp and Rocky Helmet users, normally the latter two and Deoxys-D.

An interesing strategy, while not than reliable than having a Ghost, it's an option when a Ghost type doesn't fit with the team. Also the indirect damage helps to wear down the spinner if it doesn't die.

Rocky Helmet takes away a crazy 1/6 HP while Rough Skin/Iron Barbs 1/8.

This strategy is interesting, and I actually think of that working. However, I generally miss the Leftovers recovery in other situations, so I don't like pseudo-spinblocking strategies that involve Rocky Helmet. Although it can be also useful to kill some dragons that lock themselves in Outrage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

My current HO team uses Gengar as a spinblocker, because as you said, he's one of the few spinblockers who can maintain offensive momentum. My only problem with him so far is that he loses almost 100% of the time to Starmie, who outspeeds any non-Choice Scarf Gengar and OHKO's with Psychic. Gengar also has problems with Tentacruel, who has the SpD to tank Shadow Balls for a good while, and can hit Gengar with both Scald and Ice Beam, meaning he won't be forced out by Disable.

All that aside, Gengar is a monster and a godsend for most offensive teams. 'Dat base 110 speed means he can outspeed the plethora of base 108's crowding OU, and his combination of Ghost-typing and Levitate means he has plenty of opportunities to switch in. My favorite Gengar set so far has been his Sub/Disable set, as he can force switches on a lot of Pokemon who only have one move to hit Gengar with, such as Terrakion or certain Rapid Spinners, forcing them to eat entry hazards while he either sets up a brand new Sub or unleashes a mighty Shadow Ball/Focus Blast.

Most Starmie don't carry Psychic, although a Life Orb or Rain-boosted Hydro Pump will still OHKO, but Hydro Pump has shaky accuracy. Anyway, Starmie is probably the hardest spinner to deal with due to its speed and ability to OHKO/2HKO most spinblockers. For me, the only good spinblocker that could be capable of dealing with Starmie was Jellicent with a specially defensive spread. It can stall out Starmie or defeat him using Shadow Ball.

Speaking of Jellicent, I also agree that it lacks offensive presence. I generally don't like Pokémon that lack offensive presence, but Jellicent is an exception because it has Will-O-Wisp, Recover and Taunt to make up for this. The fact that you must slowy kill the opponent instead of quickly KOing it is boring, but Jellicent's positive thraits more than make up for this.

Dracule Mihawk · Nov 11th, 2012, 4:39:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

Speaking of Jellicent, I also agree that it lacks offensive presence. I generally don't like Pokémon that lack offensive presence, but Jellicent is an exception because it has Will-O-Wisp, Recover and Taunt to make up for this. The fact that you must slowy kill the opponent instead of quickly KOing it is boring, but Jellicent's positive thraits more than make up for this.

I agree, what it lacks in offensive it makes up for in stallbreaking capabilities. Shadowball is excellent as well for hitting Celebi on the switch in. I've found Jellicent to be one of the best mons I've used, it has so much utility and is the best spinblocker against Mie. Life orb Thunder hurts though (doing 50.5% - 59.41% to 252 HP/220 SpDef Jellicent). But it's rare to see that one nowadays, I've noticed more bulky mies. And on the notion of Starmie running psychic STAB, I've seen some running round with psyshock to get a hit on things such as Keldeo.

EtherDrive · Nov 11th, 2012, 4:41:57 PM

there really isn't that much to discuss about spin blockers tbh but something I've been considering is using Conversion on Porygon 2 with shadow ball for a chance to change its typing to ghost to spin block

ClubbingSealCub · Nov 11th, 2012, 4:43:48 PM

Littlenitpick - Frosslass can't use Snow Cloak in OU because of the ban :c

To provide something, I like to use Golrurk on sun teams as a spinblocker. With ShadowPunch, and 86 Atk EVs (iirc) it can always OHKO Starmie after SR damage and always avoids the OHKO from HydroPump under sun. Tenta won't switch in because of STAB EQ.

alkinesthetase · Nov 11th, 2012, 4:44:21 PM

good OP. as a stall player this opinion is probably gonna sound a bit weird coming from me, but i think the utility of spinblocking is very limited in the modern metagame. even on a full stall team, i find it is, out of all the classic utility roles in stall, the most easily sacrificed.

so hard to find a good spinblocker these days. offense teams and pretty much anything that involves deo-D spikestacking should automatically turn to gengar - this is a tried and true combination and here there's really no contest. gengar maintains offensive pressure that those teams love, and no other ghost has the power and speed to keep up the action in that way. you don't even need spinblocking on these teams anymore (not necessarily, anyway) because it's not too hard to pressure most spinners out by sheer power. if you can crack rain tentacruel (PSYCHO BOOST DEO-D WOO) you can crack them all.

(interesting aside: if you look at lower tiers, where spinners get progressively shittier and spikers remain viable, spikestacking offense becomes stronger and stronger the further down you go. you don't even necessarily need a spinblocker on those teams. look at zebraiken's RMT for The Heist as an example)

stall however is a bit more torn. things like dusclops and cofagrigus look good in theory with their superb defenses. in addition, seeing as they're ghosts, they can spread ever-useful burns. cofag even has haze (prevents setup). the problem with both of them is that pain split is pretty shitty for a prolonged game. chestorest is not great on stall seeing as it's a one time thing. in addition, chestorest is bad when you're playing sand stall, because no lefties means you're taking sand damage.i have been considering it on a few mons though, in one of my next teams. yet pain split is just so unreliable - it's incredibly weak against mons with middling to uninvested health; you generally need to target an opposing stallmon with it for maximum gain. the only option that's "reliable" is restalk, and you don't want to be running restalk, EVER, in bw2 lol.

that puts stall in a bit of an awkward position with regards to spinblocking, which is ironic because it's the style of play that benefits from, and arguably needs it the most.

there are only two spinblockers i would consider using on any defensive/bulky team these days: jellicent and sableye. this is because both of them have recover, which means they aren't absolutely screwed by switching through hazards repeatedly in a long game. in addition, they hold momentum very well against opposing balanced teams, because of taunt+wow (FUK FERRO). it's too bad, because neither of them have cofagrigus/dusclops's superb natural bulk.

jellicent is actually made of some tough stuff; it's hard to EV it well though because, as a bulky water, it needs defense, and as a spinblocker, it needs sdef (else starmie kills you). in addition subtox tentacruel beats you one on one unless you're a rest jellicent (i have seen this brought up seriously by skilled players, like yee. the man loves jellicent, ask him). i tend to run mixed EV spreads, aiming to not get 2hkoed by certain physical attacks (eg terrak stone edge) and then dumping the rest in sdef.

sableye on the other hand has no bulk whatsoever, but don't be fooled; this shit is good. i used to think it was crappy but wow it really impressed me when i took it for a spin in sand (heh. spin). taunt+wow is, again, incredibly powerful, and it's the only way to really "counter" ferrothorn on stall. i usually run a max sdef spread with taunt/wow/recover/utility. the utility move varies. i have had a lot of success with substitute against more offensive teams (first shown to me by temp v1), but i have actually seen sunny day sableye proposed once. sableye in sun is probably the only spinblocker in this game that does not lose to any spinner. i haven't tried sunny day sableye but it sounds too hilarious to pass up, especially on weatherless where you can bait out the weather inducer to die early.

ganj4lF · Nov 11th, 2012, 4:48:48 PM

If you're going to list sets I may as well add one of those:

Gengar @ Leftovers / Black Sludge | Levitate
Timid | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

This is basically a modified SubDisable (maybe include it as a slash?) that was suggested me for my RMT. It loses the ability to troll things that can attack it with only one move, but can put WoW to great use: blazing speed, and huge surprise factor since everyone seems to expect Disable and act accordingly (switching or changing move). WoW is very helpful against things you cannot outright beat, but are greatly diminished in usefulness if burned or statused in general. For example, bulky Dragonites can keep Substituting and Roosting forever, and you probabily will be PP stalled out of Shadow Balls if you try that route; WoW can fix that problem, since you can then just switch to something else much more safer thanks to halved Attack on the Dragon. Being able to inflict status on special walls, or anything that may want to switch in on you is indeed nice, further lessening the already small amount of things that can handle Gengar with impunity.

Dark Fallen Angel · Nov 11th, 2012, 4:54:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ClubbingSealCub

Littlenitpick - Frosslass can't use Snow Cloak in OU because of the ban :c

To provide something, I like to use Golrurk on sun teams as a spinblocker. With ShadowPunch, and 86 Atk EVs (iirc) it can always OHKO Starmie after SR damage and always avoids the OHKO from HydroPump under sun. Tenta won't switch in because of STAB EQ.

Then Froslass is technically banned from OU? Because as far as I know its hidden ability wasn't released o.o

ClubbingSealCub · Nov 11th, 2012, 4:57:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

Then Froslass is technically banned from OU? Because as far as I know its hidden ability wasn't released o.o

I thought Cursed Body was released?

NoUserName · Nov 11th, 2012, 5:03:26 PM

Froslass with Cursed Body is legal, it was released time ago, if not, the decision of banning Snow Cloak possibly wouldn't had been taken.

RabidChipmunk · Nov 11th, 2012, 6:05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

Most Starmie don't carry Psychic, although a Life Orb or Rain-boosted Hydro Pump will still OHKO, but Hydro Pump has shaky accuracy. Anyway, Starmie is probably the hardest spinner to deal with due to its speed and ability to OHKO/2HKO most spinblockers. For me, the only good spinblocker that could be capable of dealing with Starmie was Jellicent with a specially defensive spread. It can stall out Starmie or defeat him using Shadow Ball.

Speaking of Jellicent, I also agree that it lacks offensive presence. I generally don't like Pokémon that lack offensive presence, but Jellicent is an exception because it has Will-O-Wisp, Recover and Taunt to make up for this. The fact that you must slowy kill the opponent instead of quickly KOing it is boring, but Jellicent's positive thraits more than make up for this.

Just looked it up, 26.931% of Starmie use Psychic. So yeah, it's definitely not a majority, but switching your Gengar in on Starmie is still not a completely safe gamble. I guess I've just gotten very unlucky with switching in my Gengar on Psychic's. But like you said, even without Psychic Gengar has very little hope of beating Starmie -- it really is one of the hardest to deal with Pokemon for Hyper Offensive teams.

Dark Fallen Angel · Nov 11th, 2012, 6:08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat alkinesthetase

jellicent is actually made of some tough stuff; it's hard to EV it well though because, as a bulky water, it needs defense, and as a spinblocker, it needs sdef (else starmie kills you). in addition subtox tentacruel beats you one on one unless you're a rest jellicent (i have seen this brought up seriously by skilled players, like yee. the man loves jellicent, ask him). i tend to run mixed EV spreads, aiming to not get 2hkoed by certain physical attacks (eg terrak stone edge) and then dumping the rest in sdef.

I have been using an EV spread of 248 HP / 56 Def / 116 SDef / 88 Spd. It is complicated, but let's me explain. 248 HP is a number that you need to take less damage from Spikes. 56 Def avoid the 2HKO from Starmie's Psyshock. 116 SpD guarantees that Starmie can't 2HKO Jellicent with Thunderbolt either (it has only a small chance, though). 88 Speed lets Jellicent outspeed defensive Politoed and Taunt him before it can Toxic Jellicent. This means that Politoed is walled by Jellicent; even HP Grass or Electric will do pathetic damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

Just looked it up, 26.931% of Starmie use Psychic. So yeah, it's definitely not a majority, but switching your Gengar in on Starmie is still not a completely safe gamble. I guess I've just gotten very unlucky with switching in my Gengar on Psychic's. But like you said, even without Psychic Gengar has very little hope of beating Starmie -- it really is one of the hardest to deal with Pokemon for Hyper Offensive teams.

Like someone said above, many Starmie are running Psyshock to better deal with CM Keldeo. As Thunderbolt can't even OHKO a +0 Keldeo. Unfortunately Gengar is not a good spinblocker to deal with Starmie, as he has to run Choice Scarf and you must predict not switching on a Psychic-type/Rain-boosted Water-type attack.

papai noel · Nov 11th, 2012, 7:42:59 PM

You should probably note that Rock Polish Golurk actually wins against Starmie and Tentacruel because it has Shadow Punch and Earthquake STABs to hit them. I know it is rare (to say the least) but some people use it. I know they win most of the times, this is just something you might want to consider (or not, because lol it's Rock Polish Golurk).

I guess the most common spinblocking strategy nowadays is Deoxys-D + a Ghost. This is just annoying and very hard to deal with. Since Gengar and Jellicent are the most common spinblockers, Starmie and SubToxic Tentacruel do very well against this core, but they will not always win. I honestly dislike teams that use this core. I find Deoxys-D to be something that is able to completely unbalance a match, especially if the same teams carries a Ghost.

To me, the one spinblocker that has most uses is Sableye. I know this depends a lot on the team you're running, but it is just unbelievably good. Priority in Taunt, WoW and Recover is just awesome. He also has no weakness, which means he is not Pursuit weak; in fact, he can just WoW CB Tyranitar, Recover the damage and then switch out.

PDC · Nov 11th, 2012, 7:46:45 PM

I have actually used Gengar on more defensive teams instead of Jellicent and liked him a lot more. Instead of throwing Gengar on the usual HO team for spin blocking I have tried using him on more defensive teams, and liked him a lot more than Jellicent or Sableye. For example, Gengar can defeat Breloom and outspeed and check Terrakion, Deoxys - D, Landorus - I and Calm Mind Reuniclus at the same time with the respectable Disable set. I have used other sets as well of course such as Taunt, Pain Split and even Choice Scarf which is actually very useful. Beating Dragonite, Scarf Salamence, Breloom, and Haxorus with ease. Gengar is probably the best anti spinner of them all in my opinion and can actually preform very well in a defensive sort of way along with offense. It has a place in defensive teams as it can easily gain momentum and do damage to offensive teams which struggle to beat it. I have run many sets from Will-O-Wisp to Life Orb Pain Split and Gengar can surely do it all. Gengar gives stall an extra edge with the combination of hazards and the forced switches Gengar causes. The heavy damage Gengar himself causes is pretty big. And the fact that almost all of Gengar's counter are worn down by hazards makes the deal even sweeter.

On my opinion of other spinners, Cofag is a pretty cool one. I have used it on Rain offense before and it can easily destroy Bulky Starmie, Forretress, and also doing a number to conventional Tentacruel. I have ran a Nasty Plot variant and done heavy damage to teams which have some hazards laid on the other side. It is actually quite strong with Trick Room + Nasty Plot up, and with it's giant physical bulk makes a pretty stellar Terrakion check with a more defensive spread. I used it on a team consisting of Politoed / Tornadus - T / Ferrothorn / Tentacruel / Cofagrigus / Thundurus - T and it worked pretty well. I killed stall for the most part, along with frailer offensive teams. I really liked how strong he was, so I thought it was really impressive how well he did when competing with the top Pokes of OU. I am not sure how well a more stall oriented set would do as I have only tested Nasty Plot, but I am sure it would do ok with that solid physical bulk. Although it probably is outclassed to at least some degree by Jellicent. Although that extra physical bulk would be much appreciated.

EtherDrive · Nov 11th, 2012, 10:24:32 PM

Ok. I posted this golurk set in the underrated movepool thread

Quote:

Golurk @ Passho Berry/Focus Sash
Nature: Adamant
Ability: No Guard
252 HP/ 176 Atk/ 76 SpD/ 4 Def

Stealth Rock
Rock Polish
Dynamic Punch
Earthquake

Entry Hazards + Spin block all in one set, Takes that Hydro Pump like a man, Applies Damages. Love it on my UU team, love it on my OU team.

However I would like to change a few things around

Instead of D-Punch Shadow punch with iron guard

Passho berry does allow golurk to take hydro pumps like a complete boss, but after that then what?

shadow punch with iron guard after that spread has a 68.75% chance to OHKO starmie WITHOUT hazards.

So bait the switch, handle it accordingly, not that you need to if that passho berry stays in tact.

Set:

Golurk @ Passho Berry/Focus Sash
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Iron Guard
252 HP/ 176 Atk/ 76 SpDef / 4 Def

Stealth Rock
Shadow Punch
Earthquake
Rock Polish/ Whatever you feel like

**Tobes** · Nov 12th, 2012, 12:10:10 AM

obligatory post about crazy sunshine incoming

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Flash Fire
Modest 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fighting
- Energy Ball / Flamethrower / Trick

Chandelure fulfills a very specific niche on sun HO, similar to the niche Gengar fulfills on other variants of HO. Scarf Chandelure performs someuseful roles in its very narrow niche; spinblocker, revenge killer, lategame sweeper, Tyranitar-bait (when using Dugtrio) etc. I don't really think you can get away with running another set in this metagame (which means you can't really get away with running Chandelure on anything but sun HO).

As I said, Chandelure is very niche and fits on a very specific kind of team. For one, you need a good supply of entry hazards to make Chandelure's spinblocking role worthwhile. Deoxys-D is of course the obvious choice, but Forretress isn't out of the equation (especially if Custap Berry gets released). You need Ninetales, obviously. Preferably you'll want a set that can take advantage of those entry hazards. I prefer specially defensive Roar Ninetales and have enjoyed using it since BW1, but Sunny Day offensive Ninetales is also a nice choice, since forcing out Politoed etc with Stealth Rock and Spikes down really helps win the weather war. Dugtrio is also important for consideration since the kind of build that's being established is very weak to Heatran, and Dugtrio is useful on sun teams in general, for obvious reasons. So overall you're looking at roughly two teamslots left that can be changed around, probably a revenge-killer + Chlorophyll mon, two Chlorophyll mons, etc. etc.

Back to Chandelure as a spinblocker as a whole: It's at its most effective in sunlight, since making Starmie / Tentacruel's Water-type STAB neutral gives Chandelure a much better game against them, especially if a Starmie user assumes that the Chandelure isn't Choice Scarfed and gets promptly outsped and OHKOed by Shadow Ball (you probably should avoid hedging your bets on that one though). Chandelure + Dugtrio + Ninetales makes for an interesting spinblocking game against Tentacruel; ideally you want to be hitting Tentacruel with Chandelure's Shadow Ball while it tries to spin, going to Ninetales on Scalds to remove Rain Dish and make Scald neutral, switching back to Chandelure on the spin, etc. You can try to switch Dugtrio in on a Scald or Toxic Spikes once Tentacruel is around 60 - 70% HP and KO with Earthquake before it can spin, but you have to be pretty ballsy and/or desperate to do that since if Dugtrio gets burned you're pretty much fucked. The safer alternative is to just let Chandelure die pelting Tentacruel with Shadow Balls and have Dugtrio revenge-kill, but that can be predictable. As for other spins, you of course handle Forretress with little trouble. Donphan, though rare, can be an asshole though.

Btw Chandelure's sun-boosted Fire Blast is ludicrously powerful.

Oh and Shadow Tag makes it the balls but that's a discussion for another time.

Nov 11th, 2012, 3:29:36 PM	#1
Dark Fallen Angel No, I do not speak German, but I wish I could. Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 773 ON A GIRL ROOM :3 :3 :3	Spinblockers (Ghost-types) approved by pocket, harsha, birkal and haunter SPINBLOCKERS ~~Ignore the Darkrai on the picture~~ Spinblockers are arguably the best way to avoid your opponent getting rid of your hazards. The only pokémon that can do this are, of course, Ghost-types, as they are immune to Normal-type attacks, including Rapid Spin. It's normally associated with stall teams, as they need to keep hazards up, as they lack offensive presence and must make the opponent take the most passive damage possible. However, spinblocking is also good for offensive teams that want the opponent taking more hazard damage and giving their sweepers an easier time. That said, there are some problems with spinblocking. For example: There is a lack of Ghost-types that can fit on almost all teams; all of them have a flaw that prevent this. For example, Gengar and Sableye are frail, Jellicent lacks offensive presence, and Chandelure is (ironically) weak to Stealth Rock and vulnerable to all hazards. If you detect a potential pursuiter on your opponent's team, you will need prediction if you don't want to lose your spinblocker. Also, there are some other ways to remove hazards or prevent them from being spinned, that don't require spinblockers, such as Magic Bounce, or using Rocky Helmet on something like Ferrothorn or Deoxys-D. They somewhat reduce the need to use a Ghost-type. This doesn't mean that spinblocking is not an efficient strategy; preventing the spin of hazards can cost a game. For example, if your opponent's weather inducer is at hazard KO range (generally 12% - Stealth Rock damage when neutral), you have effectively won the weather war as long as you prevent the hazard from being spinned. Some examples of spinblockers: Gengar Sets SubDisable Gengar (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Substitute - Shadow Ball - Focus Blast - Disable SubSplit Gengar (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Levitate EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Substitute - Shadow Ball - Focus Blast - Pain Split Sub + 3 attacks Gengar (M) @ Leftovers / Life Orb Trait: Levitate EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Substitute - Shadow Ball - Focus Blast - Hidden Power [Fire] / Thunderbolt MYSTICgar Gengar (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Levitate EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Protect - Shadow Ball - Focus Blast - Hidden Power [Fire] Choice Scarf Gengar (M) @ Choice Scarf Trait: Levitate EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Shadow Ball - Focus Blast - Thunderbolt / Hidden Power [Fire] - Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Fire] / Trick Gengar is a good spinblocker for offensive teams because it can pose an offensive threat by itself. It is quite versatile; can pull off a variety of sets, most of them wich involve Substitute. However, its frailty means that Gengar will die to most neutral attacks. Also, it is quite vulnerable to Pursuit if not behind a Substitute, but Focus Blast can defeat a common Pursuiter, Tyranitar. Jellicent Sets Stallbreaker Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Water Absorb EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe (An EV spread of 248 HP / 56 Def / 116 SDef / 88 Spd can also be used; it avoids the 2HKO from Starmie's Thunderbolt most of time, also avoids the 2HKO from Psyshock, and has enough speed to outspeed defensive Politoed and Taunt him before it can Toxic you) Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk) (A Calm nature should be used if using the alternative EV spread cited above to avoid the 2HKO from Starmie's Thunderbolt) - Surf / Scald / Shadow Ball - Will-O-Wisp / Toxic - Recover - Taunt Specially Defensive Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Water Absorb EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpD Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk) - Scald - Toxic / Will-O-Wisp - Recover - Shadow Ball / Ice Beam Choice Specs Jellicent (M) @ Choice Specs Trait: Water Absorb EVs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk) - Water Spout - Surf / Hydro Pump - Shadow Ball - Giga Drain / Ice Beam Jellicent tends to be the most durable spinblocker as it packs reliable recovery, but unlike Sableye, it actually has good defenses. It has an ability that prevents your opponent from spamming Water-type attacks with impunity, and Jellicent can also stall out many defensive threats with a combination of Taunt, Will-O-Wisp (or Toxic) and Recover. Sableye Sets Prankster abuse Sableye (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Prankster EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk) - Will-O-Wisp / Toxic - Recover - Taunt - Night Shade / Foul Play / Confuse Ray Rain troller (PenguinX's set) Sableye @ Leftovers Trait: Prankster EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef Calm Nature - Sunny Day - Will-O-Wisp - Recover - Taunt / Foul Play Sableye at first glance seems to be a pathetic Pokémon. Even though its tipying gives him no weakness, due to its frailty, Sableye is 2HKOed or OHKOed by almost all attacks. However, thanks to Prankster, Sableye can be an annonying Pokémon to face. Depending of the conditions, it can stall out many opponents, and can actually be difficult to KO because of priority Recover. Thanks to Will-O-Wisp, it is almost impossible to defeat him with a physical attacker unless it packs power to OHKO Sableye even when burned. Unfortunately, Sableye is still frail even with defensive investiment, and usually dies to most special attacks due to them not being affected by burns. Golurk Sets Utility Golurk @ Leftovers Trait: Iron Fist EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk) - Stealth Rock - Earthquake - Ice Punch / Fire Punch - Fire Punch / Shadow Punch Golurk has 2 niches. First, it is the only pokémon in the game that can setup Stealth Rock AND spinblock at same time! The second is that Golurk is one of the best counters to Terrakion, a top-threat that ironically has counters only on lower tiers. But hanks to its Ground typing, Golurk loses to Starmie and Tentacruel, two common spinners, as they are Water-types. Chandelure Sets Choice Scarf Chandelure (M) @ Choice Scarf Trait: Flash Fire EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) (a Modest nature can also be used, though) - Fire Blast / Overheat - Shadow Ball - Hidden Power [Fighting] - Energy Ball / Flamethrower Choice Specs Chandelure (M) @ Choice Specs Trait: Flash Fire EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk) (a Timid nature can also be used, though) - Fire Blast / Overheat - Shadow Ball - Hidden Power [Fighting] - Energy Ball / Flamethrower Calm Mind Chandelure (M) @ Leftovers / Life Orb Trait: Flash Fire EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) (a Modest nature can also be used, though) - Calm Mind - Fire Blast / Flamethrower - Shadow Ball - Hidden Power [Fighting] / Substitute Chandelure is a rather interesting spinblocker. Like almost all others, it also has a unique typing, on its case, Ghost/Fire. Its ability means that Chandelure has 3 immunities to switch-in, besides its resistances. However, its Fire typing means that it can also potentially lose to two spinblockers, Starmie and Tentacruel, 1x1. Chandelure is (ironically) weak to Stealth Rock, and vulnerable to Spikes. For these reasons, Chandelure isn't generally considered a good spinblocker. But it is still a great Pokémon, and one for wich exists the most speculation due to its hidden ability, Shadow Tag, wich will potentially make Chandelure a Uber pokémon. Rotom Sets Choice Scarf Rotom @ Choice Scarf Trait: Levitate EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Volt Switch - Shadow Ball - Hidden Power [Ice] / Thunderbolt - Trick / Thunderbolt Rotom retains the characteristic that was inherent to its -A forms; it's a Ghost-type. It is the only Ghost-type that can keep momentum, thanks to Volt Switch, and it has a great typing. However, Rotom is weak, frail and is not especially fast even with Choice Scarf, as it fails to outspeed some important threats. Despite not being as vulnerable to Tyranitar as other spinblockers, you need to be careful, as Volt Switch cannot avoid Pursuit if Rotom doesn't predict Tyranitar coming in. The same is valid to all other Pursuiters. Froslass Sets Spiker Froslass (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Cursed Body EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Ice Beam / Shadow Ball - Spikes - Taunt - Destiny Bond Froslass has an interesting niche. Like Golurk, Frosslass can setup hazards while spinblocking, but the hazard that Froslass can setup is Spikes. By forcing the opponent to attack, Froslass can then use Destiny Bond and kill their spinner, leaving all the opponent's team vulnerable to Spikes for the rest of match. However, like Chandelure, Frosslass is ironically weak to hazards, and she is very frail and unfortunately has a horrible Ice typing. Any Steel-type will wall and/or defeat Froslass. Scizor is the best example as it can Bullet Punch Froslass before she can use Destiny Bond. Tyranitar can also checkmate Froslass with Crunch and Pursuit, but if it isn't using Choice Scarf, Frosslass may use Destiny Bond and get a free dead Tyranitar. Cofagrigus Sets Support Cofagrigus (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Mummy EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD (another EV spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD can be used to transform Cofagrigus in a physical wall that has more physical bulk than even Skarmory when you account Will-O-Wisp) Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk) - Shadow Ball / Hex - Pain Split - Will-O-Wisp - Haze / Hidden Power [Fire] Calm Mind Cofagrigus (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Mummy EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk) - Calm Mind - Shadow Ball - Hidden Power [Fighting] / Will-O-Wisp - Pain Split / Will-O-Wisp Cofagrigus, unlike most other known Ghost-types lacks a secondary typing. This leaves him with few resistances/immunities to abuse, but at least Cofagrigus doesn't gain common weakness. It has a shallow support movepool, but at least it gets the options that it needs; although its HP is lacking, it has an extremely good physical defense, and a respectable special defense. With max investiment in physical defense and Will-O-Wisp, Cofagrigus has a better physical bulk than even Skarmory. It can, however, also run a Calm Mind set, however that set is generally overshadowed by Keldeo, Jirachi and other Pokémon that may run better CM sets; what Cofagrigus has over them is a good physical bulk. __________________ I am a 18 year old guy that lives on Brazil. I have my own desires and goals, for example, I plan to become a voice actor. I also plan to become a mangaka. Last edited by Dark Fallen Angel; Nov 11th, 2012 at 5:10:05 PM.

Nov 11th, 2012, 3:38:28 PM	#3
NoUserName Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 464	An interesting thing almost new in this generation is pseudo-spinblock with consists of killing the spinner when it uses Rapid Spin. This is achieved with Rocky Helmet and/or Iron Barbs/Rough Skin. Because the fact when using Rapid Spin, if the users dies when using the attack, the hazards won't be removed. Famous mons which may do this strategy are Ferrothorn, Garchomp and Rocky Helmet users, normally the latter two and Deoxys-D. An interesing strategy, while not than reliable than having a Ghost, it's an option when a Ghost type doesn't fit with the team. Also the indirect damage helps to wear down the spinner if it doesn't die. Rocky Helmet takes away a crazy 1/6 HP while Rough Skin/Iron Barbs 1/8. __________________ Friend Code Black: 1291 8464 3703 Standard rules, I use legal hacks from Pokesav. Don't use unreleased abilities, moves and items. Wonder Launcher Off, Voice Chat Off

Nov 11th, 2012, 3:48:00 PM	#5
NoUserName Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 464	Why some people prefer using Chandelure as an Spinblocker with its disadvantages? Also Golurk is nice because it's the only ghost which can setup SR and also it's the best checks to Terrakion. __________________ Friend Code Black: 1291 8464 3703 Standard rules, I use legal hacks from Pokesav. Don't use unreleased abilities, moves and items. Wonder Launcher Off, Voice Chat Off

Nov 11th, 2012, 3:49:03 PM	#6
Scarfwynaut Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,077 PA	If you are mentioning... Golurk Chandelure and Rotom-N then the OP should also mention Duskclops and Cofagrigus, both pokemon which a few stall users, including myself, have used to some degree of success. Both are solid walls that can fill a great niche in a stall team, also they are both effective at countering a few threats in OU like Terrakion. At the moment I am not on a computer where I can export the sets I have used, if you need me to I can pull them up later. One could also make a case for Spirtomb, but meh, Sableye is pretty much better. __________________ I am not Scarf Wynaut on Pokemon Showdown. I am PrincesoBubblegum

Nov 11th, 2012, 3:55:29 PM	#7
Lavos Spawn Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 2,141 Mentor	I made a Rain semi-stall team back in the days of BW1 that actually performed rather well utilized Scarf Rotom as a spinblocker and revenge killer. It definitely still does its job well, as evidenced by when I tried it out on the Showdown ladder a few days ago and did very well with it. Nobody really expects it, nobody prepares for it, and it can really screw over offensive teams that rely on spinning, or Sun teams with Forretress or whatever. However, if you're going to include Rotom in the OP, as Scarfwynaut said, I think you should also include Cofagrigus (who I also used on that same Rain team before discovering Rotom), and also Spiritomb, a Pokemon that's extremely obnoxious in this metagame to Starmie in particular because of its great SDef and access to Pursuit, not to mention it doesn't have a single type weakness. I don't agree with adding Dusclops, it has great defenses but its HP is so low and its movepool so limited that it doesn't really beat any spinner except maybe Forretress. Last edited by Lavos Spawn; Nov 11th, 2012 at 4:10:01 PM. Reason: typo

Nov 11th, 2012, 3:33:10 PM	#2
Roie Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 59	It is worth mentioning Rotom is the only ghost who can also voltswitch.

Nov 11th, 2012, 3:41:19 PM	#4
BlackLight Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 291	Froslass deserves a spot in the OP as the only spinblocker that can lay down Spikes as well. Its low offences and average bulk hurt it, but it can be really annoying because its movepool is perfect for what it does. Sub+Cursed Body shenanigans, TWave, and Destiny Bond are all notable. While its not a ghost, Ferrothorn is an incredibly annoying anti-spinner, as it hurts opponents that spin against it with Iron Barbs, and those that don't spin can be set up against with Spikes and Leech Seed.

Nov 11th, 2012, 3:59:58 PM	#8
PenguinX slow loris ˁ(⦿ᴥ⦿)ˀ Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 419	I've been using this a bit today and its pretty good: Sableye @ Leftovers Trait: Prankster EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef Calm Nature - Sunny Day - Will-o-Wisp - Recover - Taunt / Foul Play Counterteaming standard rain seems to be the new cool thing to do, so I just theorymonned this and it ended up being pretty good. Prankster Sunny Day is an excellent way to really screw up Specs Politoed / Keldeo in rain that come in assuming they'll force you out. In terms of actually spinblocking, Sunny Day means Sableye isn't really threatened by Starmie and Tentacruel in the rain as much, although switching in on Starmie expecting to spinblock then Sunny Day and live HPump is still very ballsy; you do get KOd if you switch in on a Hydro Pump. Biggest problem this Sableye really has is using Sunny Day vs Defensive Politoed expecting it to be offensive, and just taking a Toxic to the face. As a result leading with it isn't really a good idea since you really need to scout their Politoed set for this thing to be effective. I've been using this on a Hippowdown Balanced team (or "semi-stall", whatever), but the weather doesn't clash at all. You only use Sunny Day vs rain teams 99% of the time and its much better to have Sun up than sand against those teams. Against sun teams you obviously don't need to use Sunny Day to weaken water attacks or anything, so you are only ever using Sunny Day against teams where you don't need sandstorm up. Sunny Day is obviously a dead slot against any teams without Drizzle or offense with water-types (like Deo-d teams with Keldeo or Gyarados or something), but its a damn sight better than a lot of the other options people are using in that slow (lol confuse ray) and its a really good way of messing around with the most popular team archetype in the game. __________________ http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc...ho5ko1_400.gif Last edited by PenguinX; Nov 11th, 2012 at 4:17:31 PM. Reason: i can't spell

Nov 11th, 2012, 4:01:33 PM	#9
Dracule Mihawk Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 146	I would agree Cofag should be included in the OP, I have used to it moderate success and I believe Choice Specs made an excellent team with it. But anyway, on the topic of spinblockers I have to say my favourite has to be Sdef Jellicent. I've used Gengar and Sableye extensively, but to be honest they are nuked by Starmie and Tentacruel, two common spinners, even more so than Donphan. Starmie can destroy Gengar with a psychic STAB, while Sableye falls to rain boosted pumps or surfs. Sdef Jelli for me is the best answer to most spinners, apart from the rare orb thunder Starmie who 2khos jellicent regardless and sub toxic cruel. But Jellicent lacks any good offensive presence, and can be quite a momentum killer. Gengar is the opposite, it's bulk isn't that great but it is fast and has a good offensive presence. To me Jellicent has been the consistent spin blocker for me, next to gengar. I have yet to try dusclops though but I'm not too sure about it. It might have killer defenses, but the HP stat is lacking. Edit: Penguin X's set seems quite good, and answers starmie. Seems quite a good troll as well to screw over rain teams. I need to try that soon !

Nov 11th, 2012, 4:12:42 PM	#10
RabidChipmunk Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 198 Serenity now, sanity later.	My current HO team uses Gengar as a spinblocker, because as you said, he's one of the few spinblockers who can maintain offensive momentum. My only problem with him so far is that he loses almost 100% of the time to Starmie, who outspeeds any non-Choice Scarf Gengar and OHKO's with Psychic. Gengar also has problems with Tentacruel, who has the SpD to tank Shadow Balls for a good while, and can hit Gengar with both Scald and Ice Beam, meaning he won't be forced out by Disable. All that aside, Gengar is a monster and a godsend for most offensive teams. 'Dat base 110 speed means he can outspeed the plethora of base 108's crowding OU, and his combination of Ghost-typing and Levitate means he has plenty of opportunities to switch in. My favorite Gengar set so far has been his Sub/Disable set, as he can force switches on a lot of Pokemon who only have one move to hit Gengar with, such as Terrakion or certain Rapid Spinners, forcing them to eat entry hazards while he either sets up a brand new Sub or unleashes a mighty Shadow Ball/Focus Blast.

Nov 11th, 2012, 4:41:57 PM	#13
EtherDrive Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 198 In The House Bathing My Cyndaquils	there really isn't that much to discuss about spin blockers tbh but something I've been considering is using Conversion on Porygon 2 with shadow ball for a chance to change its typing to ghost to spin block __________________ PO: Tienty Tier: UU

Nov 11th, 2012, 4:43:48 PM	#14
ClubbingSealCub Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 385 Spheal @ Thick Club	Littlenitpick - Frosslass can't use Snow Cloak in OU because of the ban :c To provide something, I like to use Golrurk on sun teams as a spinblocker. With ShadowPunch, and 86 Atk EVs (iirc) it can always OHKO Starmie after SR damage and always avoids the OHKO from HydroPump under sun. Tenta won't switch in because of STAB EQ. __________________ RMT: Dune Walkers - Featuring Sandslash Tobes: Infernape is still #22 in standard OU. You all sicken me.

Nov 11th, 2012, 4:44:21 PM	#15
alkinesthetase <MrE> SPIDERS /\/\;,,;/\/\ Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 695 <ala> canadabros is the strongest bros you can be Mentor	good OP. as a stall player this opinion is probably gonna sound a bit weird coming from me, but i think the utility of spinblocking is very limited in the modern metagame. even on a full stall team, i find it is, out of all the classic utility roles in stall, the most easily sacrificed. so hard to find a good spinblocker these days. offense teams and pretty much anything that involves deo-D spikestacking should automatically turn to gengar - this is a tried and true combination and here there's really no contest. gengar maintains offensive pressure that those teams love, and no other ghost has the power and speed to keep up the action in that way. you don't even need spinblocking on these teams anymore (not necessarily, anyway) because it's not too hard to pressure most spinners out by sheer power. if you can crack rain tentacruel (PSYCHO BOOST DEO-D WOO) you can crack them all. (interesting aside: if you look at lower tiers, where spinners get progressively shittier and spikers remain viable, spikestacking offense becomes stronger and stronger the further down you go. you don't even necessarily need a spinblocker on those teams. look at zebraiken's RMT for The Heist as an example) stall however is a bit more torn. things like dusclops and cofagrigus look good in theory with their superb defenses. in addition, seeing as they're ghosts, they can spread ever-useful burns. cofag even has haze (prevents setup). the problem with both of them is that pain split is pretty shitty for a prolonged game. chestorest is not great on stall seeing as it's a one time thing. in addition, chestorest is bad when you're playing sand stall, because no lefties means you're taking sand damage.i have been considering it on a few mons though, in one of my next teams. yet pain split is just so unreliable - it's incredibly weak against mons with middling to uninvested health; you generally need to target an opposing stallmon with it for maximum gain. the only option that's "reliable" is restalk, and you don't want to be running restalk, EVER, in bw2 lol. that puts stall in a bit of an awkward position with regards to spinblocking, which is ironic because it's the style of play that benefits from, and arguably needs it the most. there are only two spinblockers i would consider using on any defensive/bulky team these days: jellicent and sableye. this is because both of them have recover, which means they aren't absolutely screwed by switching through hazards repeatedly in a long game. in addition, they hold momentum very well against opposing balanced teams, because of taunt+wow (FUK FERRO). it's too bad, because neither of them have cofagrigus/dusclops's superb natural bulk. jellicent is actually made of some tough stuff; it's hard to EV it well though because, as a bulky water, it needs defense, and as a spinblocker, it needs sdef (else starmie kills you). in addition subtox tentacruel beats you one on one unless you're a rest jellicent (i have seen this brought up seriously by skilled players, like yee. the man loves jellicent, ask him). i tend to run mixed EV spreads, aiming to not get 2hkoed by certain physical attacks (eg terrak stone edge) and then dumping the rest in sdef. sableye on the other hand has no bulk whatsoever, but don't be fooled; this shit is good. i used to think it was crappy but wow it really impressed me when i took it for a spin in sand (heh. spin). taunt+wow is, again, incredibly powerful, and it's the only way to really "counter" ferrothorn on stall. i usually run a max sdef spread with taunt/wow/recover/utility. the utility move varies. i have had a lot of success with substitute against more offensive teams (first shown to me by temp v1), but i have actually seen sunny day sableye proposed once. sableye in sun is probably the only spinblocker in this game that does not lose to any spinner. i haven't tried sunny day sableye but it sounds too hilarious to pass up, especially on weatherless where you can bait out the weather inducer to die early. __________________ <%yee> i will summon a spider to kill alkines my massive mafia roles list

Nov 11th, 2012, 4:48:48 PM	#16
ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science! Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 685 Italy	If you're going to list sets I may as well add one of those: Gengar @ Leftovers / Black Sludge \| Levitate Timid \| 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe - Substitute - Will-O-Wisp - Shadow Ball - Focus Blast This is basically a modified SubDisable (maybe include it as a slash?) that was suggested me for my RMT. It loses the ability to troll things that can attack it with only one move, but can put WoW to great use: blazing speed, and huge surprise factor since everyone seems to expect Disable and act accordingly (switching or changing move). WoW is very helpful against things you cannot outright beat, but are greatly diminished in usefulness if burned or statused in general. For example, bulky Dragonites can keep Substituting and Roosting forever, and you probabily will be PP stalled out of Shadow Balls if you try that route; WoW can fix that problem, since you can then just switch to something else much more safer thanks to halved Attack on the Dragon. Being able to inflict status on special walls, or anything that may want to switch in on you is indeed nice, further lessening the already small amount of things that can handle Gengar with impunity. __________________ Counter that Pokemon project: Mk III (over) & Warstory \| Mk IV (running) RMTs: The HOutsiders (also the other ones if anyone likes lurking my old posts) Take a look at this before starting an argument Not accepting rating requests anymore. Sorry!

Nov 11th, 2012, 5:03:26 PM	#19
NoUserName Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 464	Froslass with Cursed Body is legal, it was released time ago, if not, the decision of banning Snow Cloak possibly wouldn't had been taken. __________________ Friend Code Black: 1291 8464 3703 Standard rules, I use legal hacks from Pokesav. Don't use unreleased abilities, moves and items. Wonder Launcher Off, Voice Chat Off Last edited by NoUserName; Nov 11th, 2012 at 6:55:31 PM.

Nov 11th, 2012, 7:42:59 PM	#22
papai noel Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 248 Brazil	You should probably note that Rock Polish Golurk actually wins against Starmie and Tentacruel because it has Shadow Punch and Earthquake STABs to hit them. I know it is rare (to say the least) but some people use it. I know they win most of the times, this is just something you might want to consider (or not, because lol it's Rock Polish Golurk). I guess the most common spinblocking strategy nowadays is Deoxys-D + a Ghost. This is just annoying and very hard to deal with. Since Gengar and Jellicent are the most common spinblockers, Starmie and SubToxic Tentacruel do very well against this core, but they will not always win. I honestly dislike teams that use this core. I find Deoxys-D to be something that is able to completely unbalance a match, especially if the same teams carries a Ghost. To me, the one spinblocker that has most uses is Sableye. I know this depends a lot on the team you're running, but it is just unbelievably good. Priority in Taunt, WoW and Recover is just awesome. He also has no weakness, which means he is not Pursuit weak; in fact, he can just WoW CB Tyranitar, Recover the damage and then switch out. __________________ ^-^

Nov 11th, 2012, 7:46:45 PM	#23
PDC A coward dies a thousand deaths, a soldier dies but one Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 609	I have actually used Gengar on more defensive teams instead of Jellicent and liked him a lot more. Instead of throwing Gengar on the usual HO team for spin blocking I have tried using him on more defensive teams, and liked him a lot more than Jellicent or Sableye. For example, Gengar can defeat Breloom and outspeed and check Terrakion, Deoxys - D, Landorus - I and Calm Mind Reuniclus at the same time with the respectable Disable set. I have used other sets as well of course such as Taunt, Pain Split and even Choice Scarf which is actually very useful. Beating Dragonite, Scarf Salamence, Breloom, and Haxorus with ease. Gengar is probably the best anti spinner of them all in my opinion and can actually preform very well in a defensive sort of way along with offense. It has a place in defensive teams as it can easily gain momentum and do damage to offensive teams which struggle to beat it. I have run many sets from Will-O-Wisp to Life Orb Pain Split and Gengar can surely do it all. Gengar gives stall an extra edge with the combination of hazards and the forced switches Gengar causes. The heavy damage Gengar himself causes is pretty big. And the fact that almost all of Gengar's counter are worn down by hazards makes the deal even sweeter. On my opinion of other spinners, Cofag is a pretty cool one. I have used it on Rain offense before and it can easily destroy Bulky Starmie, Forretress, and also doing a number to conventional Tentacruel. I have ran a Nasty Plot variant and done heavy damage to teams which have some hazards laid on the other side. It is actually quite strong with Trick Room + Nasty Plot up, and with it's giant physical bulk makes a pretty stellar Terrakion check with a more defensive spread. I used it on a team consisting of Politoed / Tornadus - T / Ferrothorn / Tentacruel / Cofagrigus / Thundurus - T and it worked pretty well. I killed stall for the most part, along with frailer offensive teams. I really liked how strong he was, so I thought it was really impressive how well he did when competing with the top Pokes of OU. I am not sure how well a more stall oriented set would do as I have only tested Nasty Plot, but I am sure it would do ok with that solid physical bulk. Although it probably is outclassed to at least some degree by Jellicent. Although that extra physical bulk would be much appreciated. __________________ Leave me a visitor message if you want me to rate your team!

Nov 12th, 2012, 12:10:10 AM	#25
Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,246 GONER	obligatory post about crazy sunshine incoming Chandelure @ Choice Scarf Flash Fire Modest 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe - Fire Blast - Shadow Ball - Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fighting - Energy Ball / Flamethrower / Trick Chandelure fulfills a very specific niche on sun HO, similar to the niche Gengar fulfills on other variants of HO. Scarf Chandelure performs someuseful roles in its very narrow niche; spinblocker, revenge killer, lategame sweeper, Tyranitar-bait (when using Dugtrio) etc. I don't really think you can get away with running another set in this metagame (which means you can't really get away with running Chandelure on anything but sun HO). As I said, Chandelure is very niche and fits on a very specific kind of team. For one, you need a good supply of entry hazards to make Chandelure's spinblocking role worthwhile. Deoxys-D is of course the obvious choice, but Forretress isn't out of the equation (especially if Custap Berry gets released). You need Ninetales, obviously. Preferably you'll want a set that can take advantage of those entry hazards. I prefer specially defensive Roar Ninetales and have enjoyed using it since BW1, but Sunny Day offensive Ninetales is also a nice choice, since forcing out Politoed etc with Stealth Rock and Spikes down really helps win the weather war. Dugtrio is also important for consideration since the kind of build that's being established is very weak to Heatran, and Dugtrio is useful on sun teams in general, for obvious reasons. So overall you're looking at roughly two teamslots left that can be changed around, probably a revenge-killer + Chlorophyll mon, two Chlorophyll mons, etc. etc. Back to Chandelure as a spinblocker as a whole: It's at its most effective in sunlight, since making Starmie / Tentacruel's Water-type STAB neutral gives Chandelure a much better game against them, especially if a Starmie user assumes that the Chandelure isn't Choice Scarfed and gets promptly outsped and OHKOed by Shadow Ball (you probably should avoid hedging your bets on that one though). Chandelure + Dugtrio + Ninetales makes for an interesting spinblocking game against Tentacruel; ideally you want to be hitting Tentacruel with Chandelure's Shadow Ball while it tries to spin, going to Ninetales on Scalds to remove Rain Dish and make Scald neutral, switching back to Chandelure on the spin, etc. You can try to switch Dugtrio in on a Scald or Toxic Spikes once Tentacruel is around 60 - 70% HP and KO with Earthquake before it can spin, but you have to be pretty ballsy and/or desperate to do that since if Dugtrio gets burned you're pretty much fucked. The safer alternative is to just let Chandelure die pelting Tentacruel with Shadow Balls and have Dugtrio revenge-kill, but that can be predictable. As for other spins, you of course handle Forretress with little trouble. Donphan, though rare, can be an asshole though. Btw Chandelure's sun-boosted Fire Blast is ludicrously powerful. Oh and Shadow Tag makes it the balls but that's a discussion for another time. __________________