BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Whyyyyy]

Yeah that's the thing, if you don't use any of these things you have to build your team around countering these things, mainly weather,

[PDC]

Use permanent weather inducers

Not true at all, there have been many successful and effective teams that do not utilize weather to win. It is not necessary at all and countering weather threats is just a part of the metagame. They are not broken and can be easily countered with the appropriate Pokemon. Weatherless is really not too hard to pull of anyway, if you look at some of the most solid teams in the metagame, some include weather while some don't. I have utilized many popular teams in the metagame that don't use weather, and they worked very well. I have peaked #1 on the ladder on PS! and PO before with weatherless teams, and there was of course competition between both Sun, Sand, Rain and Hail teams throughout the time. You have to have a plan to actually take care of threats instead of being ignorant and saying it can't be done, which it quite obviously can. Give me a reason behind your claims that you need permanent weather to succeed, as at this point your argument is looking very bleak.

Use choice scarf on at least one Pokemon

See, this is not anything that should be shamed upon. A Choice Scarfer was still prevalent on teams in DPP. Like I said in my previous post, a Choice Scarfer gives you a huge advantage as a fail-safe for killing set-up threats such as Dragonite, Salamence, Kingdra, among other fast threats that don't even require +1 speed to do damage. Revenging is a very important part of Pokemon, and especially for offensive teams that need a backbone to get them out of tight situations. How is this bad anyway? We saw the same thing is Generation 4 with Pokemon like Jirachi and Flygon.

Use a volt turn core

What? This is a ridiculous claim and has no backbone to support it. In fact almost all successful teams nowadays don't utilize VoltTurn anyway, they utilize much different strategies instead of plain out VoltTurn on offensive teams. The best types of team nowadays don't need VoltTurn. If you want further proof of this you can check out the RMT Archive where many notorious BW teams are placed. Barely any of them utilize VoltTurn to a high extent. The only 2 teams that can be classified as "VoltTurn" are ToF's and DarkAzelf's, both who popularized this team style. The other half are not utilizing this strategy to any extent. You are wrong, if anything VoltTurn is decreasing in popularity.

[NoUserName]

Ok, I pretty like Shed Shell Heatran, after a bunch of battles using it and no one using against me any trapper, after stop using it and replaced with Leftovers, in the third battle, a Dugtrio.

It's me or the usage of Dugtrio has drastically dropped?

Shed Shell Skarmory can afford wearing it because it is inmune to hazards except SR and SS damage and has Roost, but Heatran suffers from wearing it when the opposite team has no Dugtrio...(except maybe on Stall teams in which Heatran can be ResTalker and/or Wish/Heal Bell support.

What do you think?

Also, has anyone tried Meloetta in OU?

I tried her Specially Defensive +Sp Def with Perish Song, Thunder Wave, Psyshock(or Psychic, I can't remember) and Thunderbolt) in a Stall as a response of Gengar, paralysis spreader, and last one setup mons, and I didn't find her very useful. Being weak to Pursuit doesn't help either.
Her typing defensively sucks with almost no resistances(inmunity to Ghost and resistance to Psychic) and no instant recovery.

[alkinesthetase]

It's me or the usage of Dugtrio has drastically dropped?

funny you mention this. in all the battles where i actually ran restalk shed shell heatran, i NEVER ONCE met a genesect+dugtrio pair on ladder. it really makes me sad when i sacrifice two moveslots and an item just to beat those two, and then i never run into them

as for sdef meloetta, it is an interesting set with a few niches in OU. they're limited, but with its good natural bulk, well that's gotta count for something. lack of resistances is the real problem. one thing i have seen about it is that it is arguably the best CM reuniclus counter in the game - resists stab, has perish song, and has a royal ton of special defense. i'd prefer to run focus blast over thunderbolt if i was using it in OU - the ability to kill tyranitars looking to pursuit you is really important imo.

this being said, i have not tried sdef meloetta in OU, so it's all theory

[NoUserName]

I also used ResTalk Heatran with Shed Shell too but it doesn't convince me. ResTalk is pretty bad in this gen with sleep counters reseted when switching.
At least is useful to kill things such as Venusaur EQ-less or Ninetales at the end of the battle even when Heatran is almost worn down and even Genesects without +1 Sp boost.

In Melotta I used TBolt as trying something, I didn't think about what to put in.

[Shurtugal]

Yeah I'm pretty underwhelmed by the lack of usage of Dugtrio too. I almost never see one, and usually Gene + Duggy core is so overrated since most players know how to beat it. Espec. since Scarf Gene sucks, I mean, it's speed tier is kinda crappy imo for a scarfer.

[NoUserName]

@ alkinesthetase

It was you when I said that too lol:

Originally Posted by Fat NoUserName

Ah, of course, I usually say that Shed Shell sucks, an item which is useful 5% of the time and the rest is like as carrying no item?
Like alkinesthetase says, I am unlucky enough that the times I have been using Shed Shell Heatran, NOBODY used against me a single Dugtrio or even Magnezone/ton(not talking about Gothitelle which seems that it has never existed) $·%$% I want to troll Dugtrios with Shed Shell Tran!, it seems like the day I left the item, dozens of Dugtrios, Magnezone/ton and like a Goth party Gothitelles will appear to troll me.

About Meloetta, I used her with TBolt because I was trying her, I didn't think too much about what to put on her.

ResTalk Heatran with Shed Shell... It helped me a bit when, in the lategame to recover health against Ninetales, Venusaurs or Genesect without +1 in Sp Att, and also with having a Sleep Absorber, but I think it isn't too good and maybe worth of it, specially with the new sleep mechanics.


It surprised me the answers, I almost play only in tournaments in where only two players used against me Dugtrio(in a team which seemed Lavos Spawn's sun, with Gene, of course and the other the typical rain offensive team with Tornadus-T, Gene and so on) and I don't count the bunch of random players of the ladder of Pokemon Online server when clicking Find Battle button which anyone used me the Gothi or Dugtrio.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

Yeah I'm pretty underwhelmed by the lack of usage of Dugtrio too. I almost never see one, and usually Gene + Duggy core is so overrated since most players know how to beat it. Espec. since Scarf Gene sucks, I mean, it's speed tier is kinda crappy imo for a scarfer.

Scarf Genesect is good, but not as good as it seems to be. With a 99 base speed, and the fact that Bug + Ice + Fire + Electric still fails to cover Volcarona, Terrakion and Heatran, Genesect is not as good of a revenge killer as it initially seems to be. Fantastic coverage =/= best revenge killer. There are other things that you must consider. To sandstorm teams for example, Landorus and Stoutland are better revenge killers (though I sincerely prefer Landorus). They lack that amazing coverage; but their sheer power compensate for this; as they don't need to hit things super-effectively to actually defeat them. Plus Landorus doesn't miss killing Volcarona and Terrakion.

I think that there are better ways to exploit that fantastic coverage. My favorite is to slap an Expert Belt. Since many assume that Genesect is Scarf, EB Genesect has been excellent to me, almost always getting me one or two extra kills per match. The opponent doesn't see it coming until it's too late.

Speaking of Dugtrio, I also don't seem him that much. This is good news as now both Heatran and Tyranitar are safer to use. Dugtrio really only saw a lot of usage because of Genesect, otherwise Dugtrio wouldn't be as omnipresent as it was.

[NoUserName]

Giga Drain Venusaur also helps Dugtrio usage since using EQ in Venusaur for a single mon is a waste of moveslot(I tried it)

I wouldn't call Stoutland a very good revenge killer because it relies of having Sandstorm active. Despite that it is useful if mantaining sandstorm up.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat NoUserName

Giga Drain Venusaur also helps Dugtrio usage since using EQ in Venusaur for a single mon is a waste of moveslot(I tried it)

I wouldn't call Stoutland a very good revenge killer because it relies of having Sandstorm active. Despite that it is useful if mantaining sandstorm up.

Stoutland in fact isn't a very good revenge killer because of this. What I tried to say is that its sheer power is generally sufficient to OHKO/2HKO most things; it doesn't need to rely on coverage to do this. But in fact, I was wrong, Genesect is actually better than Stoutland even on sandstorm teams, as it actually has resistances, has U-Turn and isn't screwed by the lack of sandstorm.

[Shurtugal]

Scarfed Gene's only merits is that it can revenge kill stuff with download + coverage. It's a crappy scarfer BECAUSE of its shitty speed tier, meaning it can revenge kill less since anything over base 100 with a scarf pretty much beats it 1v1. You need faster scarfers to fulfill a proper revenge killing role since Venu will probably outspeed and kill you otherwise, or simply faster scarfers.

Don't get me wrong; Scarf Gene has merits. I'm just not impressed.

EDIT: Once upon a time, a user named Shurtugal got so bored that that user actually used Scarf Ninetales and ended up trolling every Scarf Gene noob known to mankind. Because of this bored user, its usage decreased on the higher ladder...

[NoUserName]

With Bug Buzz Scarf Gene doesn't have to worry too much about coverage.

Chlrophyll Venusaur is impossible to outspeed in Sun when 252 Ev in Spd and +Spd 30 Iv for HP Fire, except by things faster than 378, almost nothing viable in OU.

[Shurtugal]

scarf lati@s viable in OU; so are scarf'ed terrak / keldeo

also, gene just ensures you're weak to them. most teams have to have a check for venu if HO

unless you're reffering to timid, which is seldom used, but admittingly effective '-'

[Wizarus]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

scarf lati@s viable in OU; so are scarf'ed terrak / keldeo

also, gene just ensures you're weak to them. most teams have to have a check for venu if HO

unless you're reffering to timid, which is seldom used, but admittingly effective '-'

Could have sworn good players are using Timid these days.

[NoUserName]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

scarf lati@s viable in OU; so are scarf'ed terrak / keldeo

also, gene just ensures you're weak to them. most teams have to have a check for venu if HO

unless you're reffering to timid, which is seldom used, but admittingly effective '-'

I said +Spd, so, mainly Timid.

Ok, I forgot to answer this:

Originally Posted by Fat alkinesthetase

as for sdef meloetta, it is an interesting set with a few niches in OU. they're limited, but with its good natural bulk, well that's gotta count for something. lack of resistances is the real problem. one thing i have seen about it is that it is arguably the best CM reuniclus counter in the game - resists stab, has perish song, and has a royal ton of special defense. i'd prefer to run focus blast over thunderbolt if i was using it in OU - the ability to kill tyranitars looking to pursuit you is really important imo.

this being said, i have not tried sdef meloetta in OU, so it's all theory

She has almost to use Perish Song to defeat it or CM by itself and even in this case CM Psyshock which never uses it defeats her, but the most important, CM Reuniclus is pretty rare since a very time ago. That shouldn't exclude that it's a threat, but it's preferrable to cover common threats than pretty rarer ones. Anyways CM Reuniclus has a hard time against offensive teams with the absourdly huge power these days. Only stall should be worried about it and not that much since I said, it's pretty rare.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

unless you're reffering to timid, which is seldom used, but admittingly effective '-'

Timid Venusaur is absolutely effective, and I say moreso than Modest. Unlike what is said on the Smogon on-site analysis, I didn't ever missed the extra power. But I never missed the ability to outpace +2 Cloyster and Scarf Terrakion/Lati@s is certainly a big plus. The less things that can revenge kill you, the better. Also, Timid doesn't impede you from 2HKOing the pink blobs with a +6 Giga Drain. I don't even know why it's not listed as the main nature on the Growth set. Seriously, is there any benefit that you get with a Modest nature but not with a Timid one? Is there something that you don't OHKO if you run a Timid nature but you OHKO if you run a Modest one?

[Shurtugal]

just saying that the blobs have this weapon called twave

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

just saying that the blobs have this weapon called twave

Not all of them carry Thunder Wave. Even then, they can't do much outside of this, as Thunder Wave doesn't prevent Venusaur from using Growth and then 2HKOing with Giga Drain. You must paralyze Venusaur while predicting if it's going to attack (switch on the wrong attack and you die) and switch to something that can beat it while it's paralyzed.

Outside of this, as they can't Toxic Venusaur, just freely boost until you reach +6; and then proceed to sweep while regaining the damage lost from Seismic Toss.

[superbadd]

Has anyone been using ditto lately? Due to how offensive the meta is, I would assume it would rise in usage.

I use a ditto/goth combo, and they're excellent. Ditto fucks with HO teams like its no one's business and goth does a great job at removing those pesky cores in defensive teams.
I use them along side DS espeon and amazing wallbreakers like terrikion and hydreigon to just plow through the opposing team.

[/B/utterfree]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

Has anyone been using ditto lately? Due to how offensive the meta is, I would assume it would rise in usage.

I use Ditto. He's the perfect revengekiller, and they're starting to be required for the Stall teams I employ. To be able to copy potent wallbreakers like Lucario, Terrakion, Sharpedo, and Landorus-Incarnate is actually a very key thing to do. Anything that already set up on someone else no longer can guarantee the victory for the player who used the set up sweeper.

[NoUserName]

Originally Posted by Fat NoUserName

Also, has anyone tried Meloetta in OU?

I tried her Specially Defensive +Sp Def with Perish Song, Thunder Wave, Psyshock(or Psychic, I can't remember) and Thunderbolt) in a Stall as a response of Gengar, paralysis spreader, and last one setup mons, and I didn't find her very useful. Being weak to Pursuit doesn't help either.
Her typing defensively sucks with almost no resistances(inmunity to Ghost and resistance to Psychic) and no instant recovery.

I was thinking to use Celebi with TW and Specially Defensive, better typing, instant recovery, and better ability for a defensive mon.

Losing the ability to counter Gengar, but better overall.

Edit: Mandibuzz is also a Gengar counter except of whom have Thunder, the dark bird offers instant recovery, WW and Taunt. Inmunity to Sand damage is nice, but annoying not Inmunity to status by switching and SR weak(the worst)

[Arcticblast]

A new DW area is out. Notable additions: Iron Fist Gurdurr, Leaf Guard Roselia (Technician Roserade), Run Away Wumple. A bunch of Hidden Hollow Pokemon have been released as DW Pokemon too.

Discuss.

Roserade can finally run an offensive Spikes set, since Leaf Storm and Spikes are illegal together.

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

A new DW area is out. Notable additions: Iron Fist Gurdurr, Leaf Guard Roselia (Technician Roserade), Run Away Wumple. A bunch of Hidden Hollow Pokemon have been released as DW Pokemon too.

Discuss.

Roserade can finally run an offensive Spikes set, since Leaf Storm and Spikes are illegal together.

Roserade being able to run a full out offensive Spikes set à la Leaf Storm is, imo, the most notable thing for OU. Conk with Iron Fist will be decent, but it doesn't give Conk any real new things it can do. Roserade, on the other hand, has a new niche, although it does have competition with Deoxys-D for a spot, and we all know that Deo-D is completely solid when it comes to Spiking. Still, Roserade has better typing, imo, so it could see some use for a neccessary resist.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat BlackLight

Roserade being able to run a full out offensive Spikes set à la Leaf Storm is, imo, the most notable thing for OU. Conk with Iron Fist will be decent, but it doesn't give Conk any real new things it can do. Roserade, on the other hand, has a new niche, although it does have competition with Deoxys-D for a spot, and we all know that Deo-D is completely solid when it comes to Spiking. Still, Roserade has better typing, imo, so it could see some use for a neccessary resist.

Yes, I would agree that Roserade poses some sort of competition with Deoxys-D for a lead Spiker role. However, I feel like Deoxys-D has the upper hand in the contest. The only notable benefits that Roserade receives are that it can use Sleep Powder to disable unwary foes, and hit opponents hard with Leaf Storm. Deo-D doesn't have access to Sleep status (though it can use Thunder Wave, arguably more useful), but it can use Psycho Boost, a move the same as Leaf Storm in all but type; however, Deo-D's mediocre base 70 Special Attack pales in comparison to Roserade's base 125. Deoxys-D, though, is bulkier, allowing it to live more hits. It also has access to the coveted Stealth Rock, meaning it's not limited on the type of hazards it can lay down. It can also use Taunt and Magic Coat, both valuable options for a lead position Pokemon that Roserade lacks. All in all, I'd say Deoxys-D outclasses Roserade by a slim margin, though the latter is still definitely worth using.

Iron Fist Conkeldurr isn't all that notable, since Guts is by far its best ability, allowing it to get a boost from status like Burn, instead of being crippled by it like most physical attackers. Despite the extra kick for Conk's Drain Punch, Mach Punch, and Ice Punch, I expect we won't see much of this ability.

[alexwolf]

Sweet!!! An offensive Roserade with Magical Leaf / Grass Knot, Spikes, HP Fire, and Sludge Bomb / Weather Ball / T-Spikes may prove as a good offensive spiker. SubPunch Conk with Iron Fist also sounds very cool (i thought he was alrdy released)!