Pokémon BW2 In-game Tier List Mark II [See Post #840]

[Ondore]

And ruins the Focus Sash of Iris's Haxorus.

[TM13IceBeam]

sawk and haxorus can also be neutered by stealth rock, which boldore learns at level 30-something

which is why a random untrained boldore can also do the same shit as a trained skarmory if all you're bringing it for is to spikestall, you could might as well just use boldore/gigalith and save yourself the time

besides that i don't think there are any other scenarios that require spikes/sr other than those two, who can also be neutered by will-o-wisp.

[Antihaxxer]

Yeah, my point. If you just need a punching ball with something cancelling Sturdy / Focus Sash, just use a useless Sturdy-StealthRocker instead of useless trained Skarmory

[Raikaria]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

For some reason, I thought Superpower was in Driftveil. Being slow isn't terrible, though. 60 base speed isn't terrible; Magnezone, Sandslash, Gothitelle, and Scrafty all have the same base speed or lower (not entirely sure on Slash and Zone, but sure on 'telle and Scrafty), and it wasn't a huge problem. The problem is bulk. Flareon has decent Special bulk, and trash physical bulk.

If we do like you say, then Sandslash would be in Low because it's outclassed by every other Ground type in the game bar the obvious. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Low is for things that need significant help to get through the game or aren't efficient. Adaptability Eevee is actually quite good, and Flash Fire is incredibly useful for switching in on things that it normally couldn't beat. 130 Base Attack is really freaking good, so the low power on Fire Fang isn't a problem for the most part.

You seem to have missed the Base 95 Special Attack stat as well, which is quite good. It gets Lava Plume, which has a good burn chance, and when that gets weak, it gets Flamethrower. As for Superpower, I always pictured it and used it like Close Combat. They're virtually the same for Flareon, so I don't see what the problem with having a gigantic hit land and switching out. You do the same with Close Combat, because the two stat drops are painful. I'll also mention that Giga Impact hits incredibly hard with Flareon, and its one of the better users of Giga Impact in the game, thanks to its 130 Base Attack.

I'd like to hear someone else's argument on whether Flare should be Low Tier or not. I am considering it, based on the fact that Superpower is found a lot later than I remembered it being found.

I'd like to hear how earlygame Gothita fairs, since I got mine as a Gothorita in the Strange House. I believe that Gothitelle is easily mid tier thanks to having better speed and better bulk than Reunicles (and not having to throw Quick Claw on it to have it outspeed stuff) but lower SpAtk.

The difference between Flareon and things like Scrafty is that they have the typing and bulk to take hits. Flareon does not. They are also better attackers than Flareon as they can actually use their best offenses.

Also, 65/110 isn't even that bulky on the special side, because 65 base HP is.. low. If you want a bulky Eeveelution on the special side, Vaporeon is better, and can actually do more damage too.

Sandslash isn't actually outclassed by every Ground-type.

It's stronger than the Onix line.

It's physically bulkier than the Trapinch line [And useful quicker]

It doesn't come with the weaknesses the Steel type brings that Excadrill has to suffer, but this one is the only real case of outclassing, but oh look, Drilbur is Top.

It is tankier and doesn't have the dark type downsides that the Sandile line has.

The Numel line isn't even comparable, and Piloswine comes *really* late and has the Ice type weaknesses.

You can make an argument for using Sandslash over every Ground-type except maybe Excadrill. It's not completely outclassed.

Give me one reason to use Flareon over the Growlithe line or the Darumaka line. There isn't one. Everything Flareon does is done better by them.

That's why Flareon should be low, and a tier below Growlithe.

Although, to be honest, I wouldn't object to Sandslash being in Low anyway.

Also, Eevee is a 5% encounter rate, in a side area. It took me over an hour to find an Eevee for my current run's Umbreon. And then, you have to factor in it's pretty low catch rate [45], and the fact it might have Run Away instead of Adaptabilty, making the encounter rate of an Adaptability Eevee technically 2.5%.

[TM13IceBeam]

magnezone is used as a defensive comparison to flareon?

wat

Also anyone tried out Charge Beam Magnezone? It's probably a lot better than Metal Sound, plus Magnezone kind of doesn't really mind the moveslot anyway (Thunder/bolt + Flash Cannon is decent enough coverage and TWave is great for utility purposes. You really only need the extra moveslot if you're running signal beam as well). Magnezone can actually sweep with it, which is pretty cool.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat Raikaria

The difference between Flareon and things like Scrafty is that they have the typing and bulk to take hits. Flareon does not. They are also better attackers than Flareon as they can actually use their best offenses.

Also, 65/110 isn't even that bulky on the special side, because 65 base HP is.. low. If you want a bulky Eeveelution on the special side, Vaporeon is better, and can actually do more damage too.

Sandslash isn't actually outclassed by every Ground-type.

It's stronger than the Onix line.

It's physically bulkier than the Trapinch line [And useful quicker]

It doesn't come with the weaknesses the Steel type brings that Excadrill has to suffer, but this one is the only real case of outclassing, but oh look, Drilbur is Top.

It is tankier and doesn't have the dark type downsides that the Sandile line has.

The Numel line isn't even comparable, and Piloswine comes *really* late and has the Ice type weaknesses.

You can make an argument for using Sandslash over every Ground-type except maybe Excadrill. It's not completely outclassed.

Give me one reason to use Flareon over the Growlithe line or the Darumaka line. There isn't one. Everything Flareon does is done better by them.

That's why Flareon should be low, and a tier below Growlithe.

Although, to be honest, I wouldn't object to Sandslash being in Low anyway.

Also, Eevee is a 5% encounter rate, in a side area. It took me over an hour to find an Eevee for my current run's Umbreon. And then, you have to factor in it's pretty low catch rate [45], and the fact it might have Run Away instead of Adaptabilty, making the encounter rate of an Adaptability Eevee technically 2.5%.

Repel says hi to your last paragraph. But yeah, I definitely see it in Low now.

[Antihaxxer]

Sandslash is outclassed. Second type does provide another good STAB not only weaknesses. Sandslash is not good

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat Antihaxxer

Sandslash is outclassed. Second type does provide another good STAB not only weaknesses. Sandslash is not good

Steelix also has coverage in the Four Fangs (Crunch, Thunder Fang, Fire Fang, Ice Fang) and gigantic defense. Not to mention it gets Curse, iirc.

[IOS]

Originally Posted by Fat Antihaxxer

Sandslash is outclassed. Second type does provide another good STAB not only weaknesses. Sandslash is not good

Sandslash gets an early evolution (evolving 10-15 levels before everything else) and then gets Swords Dance at Level 38. For some reason the majority of people here dismiss Swords Dance, which is just bizarre to me. Very few things survive a STAB attack after a Swords Dance (no matter what the Pokemon), meaning it can easily sweep after just one turn of setup. Then there's double standards going on, with Coil and Quiver Dance being cited as good moves.

Steelix also has coverage in the Four Fangs (Crunch, Thunder Fang, Fire Fang, Ice Fang) and gigantic defense. Not to mention it gets Curse, iirc.

The three elemental fangs have terrible BP. They're essentially redundant, as they'll barely outdamage STAB Iron Head.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat IOS

Sandslash gets an early evolution (evolving 10-15 levels before everything else) and then gets Swords Dance at Level 38. For some reason the majority of people here dismiss Swords Dance, which is just bizarre to me. Very few things survive a STAB attack after a Swords Dance (no matter what the Pokemon), meaning it can easily sweep after just one turn of setup. Then there's double standards going on, with Coil and Quiver Dance being cited as good moves.



The three elemental fangs have terrible BP. They're essentially redundant, as they'll barely outdamage STAB Iron Head.

There are plenty of things that RESIST Iron Head, which is where Crunch will come in handy. And Excadicks gets SD by level up as well. Again, outclassed by Excadrill.

[IOS]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

There are plenty of things that RESIST Iron Head, which is where Crunch will come in handy. And Excadicks gets SD by level up as well. Again, outclassed by Excadrill.

Crunch is worth it (80 BP), but the elemental fangs really aren't.

Also, who cares if it's outclassed by Excadrill? I thought we were talking about it in comparison to other ground Pokemon like Trapinch and Steelix?

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat IOS

Crunch is worth it (80 BP), but the elemental fangs really aren't.

Also, who cares if it's outclassed by Excadrill? I thought we were talking about it in comparison to other ground Pokemon like Trapinch and Steelix?

Krook has Moxie, which may as well function as SD, and Dark is an excellent typing to play with. You brought him up as well.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

There are plenty of things that RESIST Iron Head, which is where Crunch will come in handy. And Excadicks gets SD by level up as well. Again, outclassed by Excadrill.

what are you babbling about

Steel is only resisted by 4 types (Electric, Fire, Water, Steel), three of which are also hit super-effectively by ground. The only one that isn't is Water, but why are you keeping Steelix/Excadrill in on Water-types is beyond me.

There are not plenty of things that resist iron head, it's a reliable STAB for Steelix along with Bulldoze or Dig.

while Excadrill does get SD by level up, along with Sandslash, it doesn't automatically make sandslash bad. Sandslash's speed issues are temporarily taken care of midgame by Bulldoze, acceptable filler until EQ.

As for SD Sandslash, imo Sandslash's biggest problem is his speed, compared to Quiver Dance and Coil, where Lilligant and Serperior are fast enough for ingame purposes, not to mention the former boosting speed as well. Sandshrew's early evolution makes it one of the best Pokemon against Elesa, being able to tank her physical attacks with his good defense while being completely immune specially. This essentially allows it to function as a nuke midgame, until your other guys catch up (especially Excadrill).

[IOS]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Krook has Moxie, which may as well function as SD, and Dark is an excellent typing to play with. You brought him up as well.

That was Raikaria, and looking at his post, I actually disagree that a Pokemon should be lower if they're outclassed by a Pokemon of the same type. Pokemon should be judged on their own merits, and considered to already be part of the team when arguing for/against them.

I only compare Pokemon of the same type if they're in the same tier (like Trapinch vs. Sandslash). Same-types are simpler to compare.

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

what are you babbling about

Steel is only resisted by 4 types (Electric, Fire, Water, Steel), three of which are also hit super-effectively by ground. The only one that isn't is Water, but why are you keeping Steelix/Excadrill in on Water-types is beyond me.

There are not plenty of things that resist iron head, it's a reliable STAB for Steelix along with Bulldoze or Dig.

while Excadrill does get SD by level up, along with Sandslash, it doesn't automatically make sandslash bad. Sandslash's speed issues are temporarily taken care of midgame by Bulldoze, acceptable filler until EQ.

As for SD Sandslash, imo Sandslash's biggest problem is his speed, compared to Quiver Dance and Coil, where Lilligant and Serperior are fast enough for ingame purposes, not to mention the former boosting speed as well. Sandshrew's early evolution makes it one of the best Pokemon against Elesa, being able to tank her physical attacks with his good defense while being completely immune specially. This essentially allows it to function as a nuke midgame, until your other guys catch up (especially Excadrill).

Agree on Sandshrew's speed. IMO, that keeps it from high.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

what are you babbling about

Steel is only resisted by 4 types (Electric, Fire, Water, Steel), three of which are also hit super-effectively by ground. The only one that isn't is Water, but why are you keeping Steelix/Excadrill in on Water-types is beyond me.

There are not plenty of things that resist iron head, it's a reliable STAB for Steelix along with Bulldoze or Dig.

while Excadrill does get SD by level up, along with Sandslash, it doesn't automatically make sandslash bad. Sandslash's speed issues are temporarily taken care of midgame by Bulldoze, acceptable filler until EQ.

As for SD Sandslash, imo Sandslash's biggest problem is his speed, compared to Quiver Dance and Coil, where Lilligant and Serperior are fast enough for ingame purposes, not to mention the former boosting speed as well. Sandshrew's early evolution makes it one of the best Pokemon against Elesa, being able to tank her physical attacks with his good defense while being completely immune specially. This essentially allows it to function as a nuke midgame, until your other guys catch up (especially Excadrill).

Woah, huge error on my part there. I hadn't considered how much synergy Steel and Ground had with each other, and that made me sound like an idiot. Thanks for calling me out on that.

I never said Sandslash was bad at all. I just said it was outclassed by Exca. Sandy's a decent guy. Didn't we agree that Sandy belongs in Mid? Why are we bringing up Sandslash's position again? He's quite solidly in Mid thanks to having a decent movepool to work with, great physical defense and great physical offense. His weakness is his horrible Special Defense and his only OK speed and that he's generally outclassed by another easy to find Pokemon who can be found throughout the game instead of one area. A set of EQ/Rock Slide/Shadow Claw/Swords Dance will get you through the game (though I missed both Shadow Claw and Rock Slide on my playthrough...)

Trapinch and Sandslash aren't in the same tier, though since Sandslash is the only Ground type in Mid Tier...I guess it's alright?

On Steelix, my prior experience with Steelix in Diamond was generally favorable. Even running a set without STAB, I could rely on it to take down foes with very few problems. Do you guys think that the amount of Ground and Fighting types out there will hinder Steelix?

[DHR-107]

Steelix is an interesting one.... Bearing in mind it's gargantuan defences it should be able to shrug off most physical SE hits... I believe one of my friends is going to be using him in Challenge mode soon, if he works well there then he's got to be better in the Normal Mode.

It should curbstomp half the E4 on it's own too. Steel is just that good. 75/200/65 isn't overly terrible on the special side either.

[celever]

Is this the pokemon themselves or their evolution families? There are only basic/baby pokemon on the list and Azurill is far from high.

Anyway, my suggestion:
- High tier

Psyduck available from Floccessy ranch, with a 10% chance to encounter it, the same as patrat and mareep, and higher than riolu and pidove. The reason I have him as a high tier, is that unlike azurill he is sp attack based, making surf more effective in-battle. It can also learn good coverage in the various psychic type attacks, and shadow claw, since ghost types aren't common. (And the ones that are aren't very useful with the exception of drifblim.) Psyduck also has very good stats for an early-on NFE pokemon. It learns water pulse as early on as 18 in this game, which is actually pretty powerful! An ideal set would be: Surf (an HM)
Psychic (good coverage)
Shadow claw (great coverage)
and then another move, possibly waterfall/dive for an extra HM, due to it's not too shabby attack.

Psyduck can also be an HM slave:
Surf
Waterfall
Dive
Strength

This is why I proclaim it to be high tier!

[IOS]

Originally Posted by Fat celever

Is this the pokemon themselves or their evolution families? There are only basic/baby pokemon on the list and Azurill is far from high.

Anyway, my suggestion:
- High tier

Psyduck available from Floccessy ranch, with a 10% chance to encounter it, the same as patrat and mareep, and higher than riolu and pidove. The reason I have him as a high tier, is that unlike azurill he is sp attack based, making surf more effective in-battle. It can also learn good coverage in the various psychic type attacks, and shadow claw, since ghost types aren't common. (And the ones that are aren't very useful with the exception of drifblim.) Psyduck also has very good stats for an early-on NFE pokemon. It learns water pulse as early on as 18 in this game, which is actually pretty powerful! An ideal set would be: Surf (an HM)
Psychic (good coverage)
Shadow claw (great coverage)
and then another move, possibly waterfall/dive for an extra HM, due to it's not too shabby attack.

Psyduck can also be an HM slave:
Surf
Waterfall
Dive
Strength

This is why I proclaim it to be high tier!

None of what you mentioned is really indicative of high tier.

A 60 BP STAB at Lvl 18 is run of the mill. Growlithe gets his at Lvl 17. Zubat at Lvl 15. Etc.

Actually, comparing Psyduck to Growlithe, Psyduck is looking pretty outclassed. Growlithe has better base stats than Psyduck in everything but defense (loses by 3). Growlithe has a far better ability in Intimidate. Evolving Growlithe after Flamethrower means you're getting Arcanine only one level after Golduck. And then Arcanine again destroys Golduck in every stat.

Growlithe has the advantage vs. Burgh/Colress, while Psyduck only pulls ahead in Clay's gym. I suppose it can learn Ice Punch for Drayden, but Arcanine can one-up it by being tutored Dragon Pulse (although Blue Shards are harder to get than Red Shards).

I'm just not really seeing a clear win for Psyduck at all over Growlithe, who has essentially been cemented in mid.

[SuperJOCKE]

Remember people, we are not tiering Pokémon after other Pokémon's abilities. If a Pokémon is seemingly "outclassed", but is still good enough for the same tier as the Pokémon that excels a little better than the said individual, then it is going to be placed in the same tier.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat celever

Is this the pokemon themselves or their evolution families? There are only basic/baby pokemon on the list and Azurill is far from high.

Anyway, my suggestion:
- High tier

Psyduck available from Floccessy ranch, with a 10% chance to encounter it, the same as patrat and mareep, and higher than riolu and pidove. The reason I have him as a high tier, is that unlike azurill he is sp attack based, making surf more effective in-battle. It can also learn good coverage in the various psychic type attacks, and shadow claw, since ghost types aren't common. (And the ones that are aren't very useful with the exception of drifblim.) Psyduck also has very good stats for an early-on NFE pokemon. It learns water pulse as early on as 18 in this game, which is actually pretty powerful! An ideal set would be: Surf (an HM)
Psychic (good coverage)
Shadow claw (great coverage)
and then another move, possibly waterfall/dive for an extra HM, due to it's not too shabby attack.

Psyduck can also be an HM slave:
Surf
Waterfall
Dive
Strength

This is why I proclaim it to be high tier!

As much as I hate to contridict myself (I probably do it often and not notice, though...) I have to say that Psyduck is nowhere near high itself. Its stats are mediocre and it has two terrible abilities for in-game (When are you gonna use Damp exactly, and Cloud Nine just hinders it if it wants to use Rain Dance). It also takes forever to learn any good moves like said above. You might think that getting Confusion is nice, but why take a non-STAB Confusion when there are Woobat, Gothita and Solosis to utilize STAB Confusion with better stats (Woobat is arguable, but Unaware is actually useful in some situations).

Using Golduck is comparable to using Seaking, as its best base stat is 95. Would you be proud of yourself?

[TM13IceBeam]

Psyduck's Confusion gives you a decent Pokemon to use against Roxie even though you should be stomping her with mag, and there really isn't anything else with psychic moves. HM slaves are really unnecessary, aside from that Psyduck is one of the few to be able to use Surf/Strength, the two HMs needed to beat the game.

Also uh, Azurill is not special-based, but Azurill gets Waterfall, Huge Power, Superpower, Return, Double-Edge, Ice Punch, etc etc etc. What does Psyduck get? Surf. Surf. Surf. And Ice Beam and Psychic. Guess which Pokemon learns all three, still can learn an additional move for even better coverage, and has better special attack and speed than Golduck?

: hi

Psyduck just doesn't cut it in high tier.

also shadow claw sucks

[The Cicada]

klink should be mid or possibly but not likely high. it sucks as a klink, is semi decent as a klang, and as klinkklang pro sh1t when it gets shift gear. solos Ghetsis cuz Confarigus is complete set up bait. can use 6 shift gear against it.

solos grimsely cuz Liepard is also set up bait. solos Caitlyn, Musharna just uses yawn like a fool and lets u use 6 shift gear. Should be able to kill shauntals chandelure after 6 shift gear (confarigus easy set up bait), and 2hko jellicent, and ohko everything else. sucks against marshal tho.

Didnt use it against Iris tho, so idk how it performs against her

[R_N]

if the theme of Klinklang is to set up 6 Shift Gears I imagine not well

[The Cicada]

oh im just saying that late game it sweeps almost every boss. but before it becomes klinklang, it feels like dead weight, so no way its gonna make it above mid due to such late evolution

[TM13IceBeam]

the only thing it really has now is wild charge

which kind of works since he no longer shits his own pants against steel/chandelure