np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 8 - Mr. Roboto (SEE POST #240) - Page 3

**PK Gaming** · Nov 13th, 2012, 5:13:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat AfroThunderRule

That's what I thought when I skimmed the first post at first, but OP did say

who would you rather listen to, me or aldaron.

(hint: me, it's a no brainer)

Dracule Mihawk · Nov 13th, 2012, 5:16:44 PM

I've always found RP Genesect to be its most threatening set. Scarf is ok, but the letdown comes mainly from that base 99 speed. I personally prefer faster scarfers such as Terrakion or Keldeo, or Mence even. While it is nice having STAB on its U-turn, the failure to outspeed things such as +1 mence can be a big let down.But the real problem lies in how easily RP gene can sweep teams, you cannot know his full moveset for certain straight away as some might run Giga Drain, and if one chooses to use an expert belt it makes setting up even easier. The sad thing is when you see people lowering Def IVS on pokemon just to avoid genesect getting a download boost, which is pretty stupid. Things like Garchomp have good bulk that is being ruined due to this iv reducing. Furthermore, heatran now having to run shedshell, which isn't even that great of a set as Heatran really needs lefties. Even the usage statistics are insane, 50 per cent. It's hard not to say that metagame is overcentralised around this bug.
And it can be quite hard to know Genesects set, one move shown in its arsenal does not reveal what set it is. U-turn is common on most sets apart from RP, coverage moves are common through out all sets as well. By the time you find out which set it is it will be too late and your team will be damaged.

AfroThunderRule · Nov 13th, 2012, 5:27:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5oa7edKPY1qgqhyw.gif

who would you rather listen to, me or aldaron.

(hint: me, it's a no brainer)

Don't hurt me. D:

Also I noticed alot of people here are using the Dugtrio + Genesect combo, or have fought the Dugtrio+Genesect combo. If you guys do use it can you tell us your experience with it? Does it work nicely for you guys? Does Dugtrio worked as you planed or was it a liability for you guys? What do you fear when using the combo? etc

Stone RG · Nov 13th, 2012, 5:54:20 PM

Well, in my opinion this was the most necessary of all suspects we could do, far more important than exca, the last suspect stats (or REAL OU stats as a matter fact) just sent an S.O.S message to the metagame: passing the 53% mark in usage is ridicoulus, and just makes you realize how much of an unhealthy metagame we are playing in, genesect definetely crossed a line.

Despite all that, genesect is rather overcentralizing, not broken, because all its sets has perfectly viable counters, the problem is the ease how it fits in any team, without even effort, i dont have to tell of you the niches of every set, because you know it. I have no idea how this test will end up, but it will sure be a much more interesting test and votation.

***Aldaron**** · Nov 13th, 2012, 6:22:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat AfroThunderRule

I have a dumb question, sorry if I'm not allowed to ask this.

It seems weird to ladder on two different ladders, especially when (as far as I know) they aren't different at all. So I was wondering what is the point of it? Want to test that it wasn't a fluke?

Edit: NVM, one has Genesect while the other one doesn't... lolme.

Also to keep this post somewhat on-topic what is typically your answer to stop genesect? A faster check? A dedicated counter like Heatran/Chansey? Hazards? A combo of the previous three?

The OU (Current) ladder has Genesect, the OU (Suspect Test) ladder does not have Genesect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

both of them have genesect...

the point of testing on suspect & the general ladder is to see how players do in 2 different environments. (General ladder = regular players, Suspect ladder = competive minded players)

wtf you smokin' bro?

As for the other question:

You need to qualify on both, even if you qualified in the last suspect round.

iAdam · Nov 13th, 2012, 6:27:10 PM

genesect is a killah, he just sweeps with bug buzz/flamethrower/ice beam/ Tbolt

it pisses meh off so much XD

yee · Nov 13th, 2012, 6:38:09 PM

I'd just like to throw in the ring that Scarf Genesect not being able to revenge faster things with it's Scarf isn't a letdown at all, just run 2 Scarfers if it's an issue. One of your Scarfers is already a super valuable Steel-Type and an even more annoying Rotom-W when it comes to pivoting (some people, including me believe you could make an argument for Rotom-W already because of how good it is at this), so running another one to just be a catch all or just secondary fast mon is hardly a bad idea when almost every team is just a few sweepers paired with maybe a revenge killer, Deo-D, weather setter or Dugtrio.

Double Scarf is just too useful right now to be worried that one shouldn't be running it purely because it can't revenge a few threats. You shouldn't have any shortage of power to break stall with either.

**capefeather** · Nov 13th, 2012, 6:59:37 PM

Quote:

Cape, imagine Download on a good Pokemon. Yeah, that's Genesect.

What's your point? Porygon-Z was the weaker example, anyway. I was referring to the quite frankly empty argument of, "oh people are altering EVs and IVs slightly to deal with Genesect, SO BROKEN."

Quote:

Can we drop this argument once and for all?
There is an obvious correlation between usage and power, as every single OU pokemon that has been banned to ubers so far can show.

The classic counterexample is Wobbuffet in DPP OU, and a more recent counterexample is Gothitelle in BW UU. Not that correlation even implies causation in the first place. There's not just my explanation for Genesect's usage (which I notice was completely ignored) but also the general explanation that it fits in just about every team. Fitting in many teams is not "broken", it's "versatile".

I'm not even saying that usage doesn't correlate well with power. It often does. However, that is not an excuse to suggest that usage proves that a Pokémon is broken. That's not opinion, that's just plain fallacious.

Look, all I'm saying is that a lot of posts seem to be just describing a very, very good Pokémon and concluding that it's broken. Being great is not sufficient to break a Pokémon. Otherwise, we'd have to keep banning the biggest threat over and over again.

Princess Bri · Nov 13th, 2012, 7:06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ballabrown24

Most of the time you have to rely on bluffing a set in order to get the rock polish up safely. Bug buzz + Ice beam + thunderbolt coverage really isn't that good coverage when you consider that suddenly terrakion and rotom-w becomes a good check to it..the better option is the one with Giga drain over bug buzz but then that just replaces its stab...

I'm trusting that the opponent of genesect isn't an idiot and can see the roles of each pokemon by the time it is late game. There is really no bluffing of move sets with rp genesect because of the fact that its the only set that wields a life orb so that in itself should give you a pretty good idea of what it is. Speak honestly, nobody is going to keep a scarf genesect concealed that long - same with specs and band.

I am by no means saying that genesect is a bad pokemon, but honestly if you are saying that every team benefits from genesect that is pretty naive. Myself personally, I don't like using genesect because of the fact that it doesn't perform well as a steel type and I don't need a scarfer who can't revenge what it should be able to

edit: it really isn't that hard to stop him by the time he's set up...standard rain has no problem with it because tentacruel stomps all over it (thunderbolt is not a viable option...) if genesect doesn't have Giga drain then a ton of pokemon beat it such as jellicent and terrakion and keldeo, while if it does have Giga drain then shit like kyurem b does well against it

I respectfully disagree with several points, seemingly theorymon based and not experience based, exhibited. As I used Rock Polish Genesect every battle on the last OU Suspect test and successfully finished #1 at the termination of the Round, I can say Rock Polish Genesect is much easier to set-up with and sweep than you apprise, moreso in such an important, gamechanging (literally) thread. For reference, I'll list the team I used whilst laddering at the bottom of the post. The first point you made which I found had some substance, albeit lacking much as it is mainly opinon-based, is where you said that Rock Polish Genesect had mediocre coverage at best. In regards to such accusations, the moveset you listed for such a set probably was lacking coverage. You were using the incorrect moves. Typically, a Rock Polish Genesect I use looks something like the following:

Genesect @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Trait: Download
ev's: 28 HP / 252 SAtk / 20 SDef / 208 Spd
Rock Polish | Giga Drain / Bug Buzz | Ice Beam | Flamethrower

This is probably the best set, so I recommend you try it before posting much more about it. You are certainly correct; however, about Bug Buzz + Ice Beam + Thunderbolt coverage really isn't that great of coverage.

A second point in your post which I felt was worthy of a rebuttal was where you posted that Genesect typically has to rely on bluffing its set in order to get a boost. This is a ludicrous statement, and it showed your inexperience either playing with the aforementioned set or against it. Rock Polish Genesect does not have to be a late-game sweeper versus most teams in the metagame, unlike what you seem to be implying. Due to the hyper-offensive nature of the metagame, Genesect finds many set-up opportunities whether it be versus a slower Pokemon, (think weather inducers: Bulky Toed, Tyranitar, Hippowdon) or it could possibly be versus a choice locked Pokemon (think common Choice Scarf'ers: opposing Genesect, Keldeo locking in anything but a water-move, Lati@s, etc.). Utilizing Genesect early-game in attempts to set-up means that the opponent will not have much on an idea on its set, making your point of,

Quote:

I'm trusting that the opponent of genesect isn't an idiot and can see the roles of each pokemon by the time it is late game. There is really no bluffing of move sets with rp genesect because of the fact that its the only set that wields a life orb so that in itself should give you a pretty good idea of what it is. Speak honestly, nobody is going to keep a scarf genesect concealed that long - same with specs and band.

de facto worthless. Versus our very own PK Gaming, as we both procrastinated in getting our deviations to 55 in the Kyurem-B Suspect Test, the very first game we played I successfully demolished a good portion of his team with Rock Polish Genesect, as I easily faked a Choice Scarf Set. Admittedly, occurrences such as suspect laddering reveal your sets if you repeatedly face the same opponents, but in competitive, tournament play is where it counts for a majority of Smogon players, correct?

Additionally, I personally do advocate the use of Genesect which differs from your opinion, but to each their own.

Saying that Genesect isn't hard to stop once it's set-up also seems to be more of an "experience lacking" comment more than anything, or you've been playing against the professionals which ladder regularly on the Standard OU ladder.

Quote:

it really isn't that hard to stop him by the time he's set up...standard rain has no problem with it because tentacruel stomps all over it (thunderbolt is not a viable option...) if genesect doesn't have Giga drain then a ton of pokemon beat it such as jellicent and terrakion and keldeo, while if it does have Giga drain then shit like kyurem b does well against it

Tentacruel is an nuisance to Genesect, one point I actually agree with in your entire post; however, it can be beaten with SR + Spikes and Giga Drain with a Life Orb depending on its HP when switching in. Additionally, ellicent, Terrakion, and Keldeo all fall to a timely Giga Drain which is what most good players are using and what I've been advocating, and Kyurem-B falls easily due to its SR weakness and Ice Beam 2hko's after, making it not even a check.

tl;dr as Aldaron said to PK Gaming, "wtf u smokin bro".

...

Jukain · Nov 13th, 2012, 7:20:56 PM

Quote:

Can we drop this argument once and for all?
There is an obvious correlation between usage and power, as every single OU pokemon that has been banned to ubers so far can show.

One word: Deoxys-N. There's precedent.
I've got a pretty strong opinion on Genesect, but I've got some other stuff to do so I won't post it now (actually I might end up posting a decent amount of it.

Just to be brief, the notion that Genesect has to be on every successful team. Not even most! The team I'm probably going to ladder with has no Genesect on it. This is the same for a ton of my teams. I get that Genesect is great and all, but I think you guys are overrating it. If you're adequately prepared for it, you should have no trouble. Genesect is honestly not the thing I'm most worried about. Hell, Ninetales of all things counters it. Volcarona. Heatran. Terrakion. Rain Jirachi. Rain Bronzong. Chansey (U-turn doesn't do that much really and all other attacks do shit, no recovery = wear it down with Seismic Toss). Chandelure (other than Thunder/ two Thunderbolts). Standard Conkeldurr. Mixed wall Hippowdon with 25 Def IVs (a little shakier though). Roost cube (unless it sacrifices coverage for Flash Cannon). Porygon2. Will-O-Wisp Rotom-W. Specially Defensive Skarmory (other than Thunder/bolt). Swampert (yeah it isn't great but still). Curselax. These are Pokemon that can take every attack that you'd have to worry about from Scarf/RP Genesect. You can't beat the thing, you cry? Pick a mon. I can give you a list 2-3 times as long of Pokeon that are only killed by one common move. Use entry hazards. Perhaps attempt to prevent opposing entry hazards (or get a spinner/Magic Bouncer). In my opinion, Genesect is not the biggest threat to worry about. I'm going to get shot down for this, hell I can see people thinking I'm stupid and never respecting anything I say. I'm just so vehemently opposed to this thing leaving OU. Genesect is like any threat—all you need is a check. A counter if you're so inclined. Maybe 2 checks. Maybe you can just predict—but of course no, that's not an argument for banning a Pokemon, I won't even try bringing it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ballabrown24

I am by no means saying that genesect is a bad pokemon, but honestly if you are saying that every team benefits from genesect that is pretty naive. Myself personally, I don't like using genesect because of the fact that it doesn't perform well as a steel type and I don't need a scarfer who can't revenge what it should be able to

This 100 times. Genesect has difficulty taking hits. Obviously it's got the power, but it can't utilize its typing as well as, say, Scizor can. Genesect can't take Outrages. Genesect can't take Draco Meteors. Genesect can't take Close Combats. Hell, Genesect has trouble taking most strong neutral attacks. Scizor can take most of those hits. Jirachi takes the former two like they're nothing and live the latter. Ferrothorn can take the former two. Here's the big difference: Genesect can't revenge kill +1 Salamence. It needs a decent amount of health to take an Outrage and is outsped, which means it will be roasted by Fire Blast. At least Scizor can revenge kill. Genesect can take weak and moderately powerful resisted hits. A few neutral hits. Genesect's not frail, but it just can't take what a Steel-type is meant to take. It can't invest in HP without being outclassed by a ton. The fact that another Steel-type is needed to cover these weaknesses should be absurd if Genesect is *amazing* and *unstoppable*.

Let's talk sets. Choice Scarf first. Simple answer here—switch to something that can take the incoming hit. Even if Genesect predicts that switch-in, go switch to a setup sweeper. Go, use Genesect as setup fodder. If Genesect is locked into one of its coverage moves and whatever Pokemon is out does not take much damage from said coverage move, it is a liability. Force it to use a coverage move. Don't let the Genesect user have the momentum. Get Rotom-W in as Genesect comes in and get off a slow Volt Switch. If it's got Bug Buzz or Flash Cannon instead of a coverage move, I bet you have at least one perfect counter that would otherwise be harmed by said move. Don't complain that Genesect revenged your +1 Haxorus/Dragonite—try and secure +2 or don't be a greedy bastard and switch out. Honestly, Choice Scarf Genesect is so predictable it's almost sad that everyone's so god damn worried about it.

Expert Belt Genesect is the next big common set. Come on, you seriously don't have something faster than Genesect. For shame, you deserve to lose if you have nothing faster than it. Not to be cocky or anything, but if you don't have ANYTHING faster than Genesect, you probably have bigger issues.

RP, that is probably the best set. Bug Buzz + BoltBeam misses out on a lot. Genesect has no trouble setting up, but Steel-types counter it perfectly then. Steel-types countering something is not a perfect argument, but there's still a ton of mons with respectable special bulk, such as cube, that can take a hit and retaliate HARD. When I say hard, I mean HARD. Remember, Genesect has trouble taking the hits a Steel-type should.

Not to discount the credibility of some of the players much better than I posting in this thread, but I feel like many if you just don't like Genesect. I feel like it's not being adequately prepared for and that it isn't as bad as you think on paper or in practice. I implore you—think this decision over before you make it. Is Genesect ACTUALLY broken? I'm not convinced at this point that Genesect is broken. I want to know why Genesect is being banned. I see the same rehashed sentiments everywhere.

Here, I'll even give you an example. (Not trying to call you out man, just proving a point.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Stone RG

Well, in my opinion this was the most necessary of all suspects we could do, far more important than exca, the last suspect stats (or REAL OU stats as a matter fact) just sent an S.O.S message to the metagame: passing the 53% mark in usage is ridicoulus, and just makes you realize how much of an unhealthy metagame we are playing in, genesect definetely crossed a line.

Despite all that, genesect is rather overcentralizing, not broken, because all its sets has perfectly viable counters, the problem is the ease how it fits in any team, without even effort, i dont have to tell of you the niches of every set, because you know it. I have no idea how this test will end up, but it will sure be a much more interesting test and votation.

Suspect ladder usage is horribly off because people ladder for reqs and thus use cookie-cutter teams so as to not have difficulty and get games finished quickly and efficiently. Genesect just happens to be common on those teams because it's a great revenge killer.

The second point is the one I really want to dispute. Overcentralization is not equivalent to broken. Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks so. Overcentralization has NEVER been the reasoning behind a ban, at least for banning in OU. Think of the bans. You might disagree with them, but can you dispute how BROKEN these banned mons were (I don't agree with Excadrill/Thundurus completely but that's beside the point here). Genesect is not anything like DrizzleSwim, or Garchomp, or Blaziken. Those are mons that flipped OU upside down and were basically impossible to beat (or for the latter, to hit).

for those who haven't read this/don't feel like skimming for it

I don't mean to mislead anyone into thinking this document is aimed at the present, but it still applies. Does Genesect actually unbalance the metagame? I say not, give me your best shot.

I know I'm going to be bashed and ridiculed for this, but someone had to say it.

Oh, and this title is an excellent replacement for the overused np. Keep up the good work!

Electrolyte · Nov 13th, 2012, 7:53:03 PM

Rock Polish is definitely its best set, but a good portion of the success of that set is simply because the scarf set simply exists. The fact that unless you know your opponent's set, there are so many options it can fire at you. It can just use its plain above average coverage to KO you, or it can U-Turn out to a partner that counters your counter, or it can seize the forced switch due to possibilities to pull off a surprise Rock Polish and THEN sweep. Its versatility and coverage are what truly makes it frightening. It's like that feeling when you think your Lando-T has good it good taking a Thunderbolt but then BAM an Ice Beam hits you in the face.

**PK Gaming** · Nov 13th, 2012, 7:58:01 PM

Sorry aldaron, honest mistake. I was under the assumption that both ladders were allowing the use of Genesect...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Princess Bri

...

That was arguably the best team on ladder too. Had a consist W/L ratio vs it, and Brii bodied most of the teams that she faced off against. Even when I knew what set she was running, I had to stop Genesect from setting up or she'd 6-0 or seriously injure my teams. This is because 99% of teams rely on checking Genesect by pivot switching into a resisted move if its choiced, and just relying on faster threats in general. Scarf Keldeo's a pretty failsafe against Genesect in the rain right? Not if its at +2.

She's unleashed Pandora's Box btw, you're all fucked!

PenguinX · Nov 13th, 2012, 8:15:27 PM

I'm of the opinion that Scarf Genesect is the most overrated Pokemon in BW2. As others have said, 99 Base Speed is just a massive let down and people have started to catch-on to how weak these Scarf Genesect-reliant teams tend to be to Scarf/DDMence and Volcarona. Dual scarfers is certainly a viable strategy in such an offensive metagame, but when you have to start running a second scarfer to make-up for Genesect's shortcomings you really have to consider if scarf Gene is actually as good as it made out to be. Its like building a team with Forretress, and then adding SubToxic Tentacruel as well to make-up for the fact that Forretress can't spin against Jellicent. Why not just streamline the process and ditch Forretress altogether? (possibly a bad example its late and i'm rushing this). I'm not saying double scarfers is bad because it definitely has its merit, but when people are trying to argue a case for Scarf Genesect by saying "yeah you can just run scarf terrak alongside it to beat up Volcarona and Salamence!" you aren't selling it well at all!

Rock Polish and EBelt are still excellent. I'm sort of glad to see Rock Polish finally catch the attention of the masses; 1-2 months ago I wouldn't have even considered voting Genesect Uber because people weren't really abusing its potential and instead just using it for roles that some other Pokemon arguably do better anyway (scarf!). Now I'm sort of on-the-fence about it.

FaceFaceFace · Nov 13th, 2012, 8:31:45 PM

Genesect Pros:
1. 600 BST
2. 120 in BOTH attacking stats
3. Download
4. Decent speed at 99
5. Better defenses compared to the likes of Mence with an amazing typing with only ONE weakness which can be mitigated by rain.
6. Not priority weak
7. More or less omnipotent movepool, coverage can easily be patched up by team-mates
8. Not SR weak
9. Ridiculous sweeping/wall-breaking/momentum gathering ~~potential~~
10. Terminator-like appearance
11. Hard-Counters low on usage except Heatran

Genesect Cons:
fajoeijflgkjflagkjdf I actually cannot think of one. Weak to spikes, maybe?

Even Scarf set isn't that bad - lay some hazards, force some switches - win the game.

Genesect is like the Terminator. Scary when he's coming after you, absolutely lovely with ridiculous punch-lines when he's on your side.

ssbbm · Nov 13th, 2012, 8:40:46 PM

2000 glicko?

also why dont people run jirachi in rain that literally counters half the meta u guys!

also rp genesect is the only broken genesect

Sol64 · Nov 13th, 2012, 9:26:48 PM

Hmm this is interesting due to the Release and Rise of Genebug.

I've been trying out this pokemon in a sun team (don't stop reading yet) with Flame Charge, Giga Drain (Solarbeam being ineffective due to weather wars) Bug Buzz and Ice beam.

Rock Polish Life Orb would make the most sense to you all but i've been trying this out mainly to abuse the sun (and to try and make it work on my sun team) and to also have some sort of fire type move, and if Download bolsters it, makes it a pretty good move that does some sort of damage while raising my attack. It also does a number on other steel types and if they switch...well, free speed boost.

Of course having giga drain with life orb (and again if download bolsters sp.atk) will deal out a good amount of damage while healing. Others moves to keep it short will just hit like a truck. It's been working out surprisingly effective for me (though it took me 3 matches to get a final team working optimally).

Boondocker · Nov 13th, 2012, 9:30:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

Just to be brief, the notion that Genesect has to be on every successful team. Not even most!

If you're adequately prepared for it, you should have no trouble. Genesect is honestly not the thing I'm most worried about. Hell, Ninetales of all things counters it.

The fact that another Steel-type is needed to cover these weaknesses should be absurd if Genesect is *amazing* and *unstoppable*.

Honestly, Choice Scarf Genesect is so predictable it's almost sad that everyone's so god damn worried about it.

Expert Belt Genesect is the next big common set. Come on, you seriously don't have something faster than Genesect. For shame, you deserve to lose if you have nothing faster than it.

RP, that is probably the best set. Bug Buzz + BoltBeam misses out on a lot.

Not to discount the credibility of some of the players much better than I posting in this thread, but I feel like many if you just don't like Genesect. I feel like it's not being adequately prepared for and that it isn't as bad as you think on paper or in practice.

This man (or woman or kid) is a genius. Someone nominate him for something. Will update once i get a little higher on the ladder but for now i completely agree.

Andeby · Nov 13th, 2012, 9:54:15 PM

Am I doing this right? Am I halfway? OU (current), by the way.

Yeah, I was the one running 5drag1mag. Caused a lot of disapproval from my fellow ladder climbers. I don`t mind though, as it got the job done.

AfroThunderRule · Nov 13th, 2012, 10:04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Andeby

Am I doing this right? Am I halfway? OU (current), by the way.

Yeah, I was the one running 5drag1mag. Caused a lot of disapproval from my fellow ladder climbers. I don`t mind though, as it got the job done.

Yes, that's right. You're halfway done, good job.

PDC · Nov 13th, 2012, 11:15:26 PM

I gotta say this was a pretty fun ride so far. I haven't really started yet and just have been team testing for the most part but have decided on 2 main alts and what teams I am going to be using for the rest free round. The Glicko difference is pretty annoying considering that you can be 8-0 and at 2000 rating or 10-0 and at 1700. Been messing with me a lot recently. I like the suspect metagame a lot more. It was basically BW before Genesect was released. I will probably be going for the first Reqs this week then finish off the second one later. But I really have to ask why we can't just use the regular OU ladder as they are the exact same metagames we are testing. Not sure why we had to make an entirely new one to get the job done.

But into the actual metagame, this testing is pretty fun so far and I am looking foward to getting Genesect out of here for good. I like how people still believe Scarf is the best set. Scarf is great but RP and Expert Belt are probably the best sets to run overall. They are amazing sweepers and can wreck teams if given the right support. Simply get SR down, eliminate Blissey or Heatran and you basically have the game in your hands. The fact it can take basically al priority just allows it to decimate all other offensive teams that rely in stuff like Scarf Keldeo to beat it with. Genesect is really showing diversity now with all these sets emerging and right at the probable ending of it's reign too which I honestly think is a bit sad in a way. Haven't really played too much in the metagame without Genesect so I am gonna have to see if it is healthier or not without the metal machine, but I am leaning towards the fact Genesect really isn't conventionally broken, just unhealthy for the metagame. It just gives so much centralization and is dominating the charts.

X5Dragon · Nov 14th, 2012, 1:23:04 AM

I'm seeing much more freedom at the suspect ladder atm (for starters I got owned by a Harvest Exeguttor when I was trying to figure out what the hell it was) and a hail team with a SpD bulky Kyurem with roost and sub. Oddly enough Heatran usage seems to be the same, which is fine since he is an excellent mon on his own.

On the issue of is it over centralizing or broken I think it's the former, kind of like "it's not me it's you Mr. Metagame and your non released trappers and banned previous suspects."

BlankZero · Nov 14th, 2012, 2:37:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat X5Dragon

I'm seeing much more freedom at the suspect ladder atm (for starters I got owned by a Harvest Exeguttor when I was trying to figure out what the hell it was) and a hail team with a SpD bulky Kyurem with roost and sub. Oddly enough Heatran usage seems to be the same, which is fine since he is an excellent mon on his own.

On the issue of is it over centralizing or broken I think it's the former, kind of like "it's not me it's you Mr. Metagame and your non released trappers and banned previous suspects."

This. Give me my shadow tag Chandelure and watch as Genesect pees itself. Or give me sand rush Exadrill or Speed Boosted Blazekin and I'll nuke it from orbit.

Genesect is great, but it can be countered or checked still, and not by random or absurd Pokemon either, but by common Pokemon like Heatran.

/B/utterfree · Nov 14th, 2012, 2:50:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat BlankZero

This. Give me my shadow tag Chandelure and watch as Genesect pees itself.

That would just enable more Genesects to run HP Ground on RP sets, or just U-turn out otherwise. You know you can U-turn/Volt Switch out of Shadow Tag users, right?

Or give me sand rush Exadrill or Speed Boosted Blazekin and I'll nuke it from orbit.

...do we really have to bring up previous Suspects who are more than likely going to stay banned? It's not like Blaziken wasn't banned in Dream World OU either (oh wait it was), and how Excadrill isn't also a broken Pokemon (do we really want to see Sand rise? That was DW OU's main problem before B2W2 arose).

Genesect is great, but it can be countered or checked still, and not by random or absurd Pokemon either, but by common Pokemon like Heatran.

Countering Genesect is a ball game that DW OU might be more adept at. However, when it comes to Standard OU, making a healthy metagame with Genesect in it is at the very least an arduous, uphill battle. Heatran is already being used a whole lot, what do you want next, Volcarona? Good luck getting past Stealth Rock on an otherwise supreme Pokemon, who is meant for lategame sweeping anyway.

While I agree that Genesect's main problem is just over-centralization, there's some level of lethality to the Bug/Steel-type, or else it wouldn't over-centralize a meta-game in the first place. If it was just as overrated as you guys claim it is, wouldn't its usage either remain stagnant or drop otherwise? Why would it topple over Politoed in the usage thresholds?

X5Dragon · Nov 14th, 2012, 2:56:52 AM

HP Ground does nothing to Balloon Heatran or even Balloon Blaziken/Excadrill, but it does everything to it's coverage. Point 2 being a Scarf Chandelure doesn't give two switches about your U-Turn, since it will either catch you with when using a Scarf Gene or in case of an RP Set, murder you anyway since you won't be having it.

We aren't talking other suspects or retesting but we are establishing the fact that Genesect in this meta right now is overcentralizing, nothing more. Maybe in Gen 6 where everything starts fresh he might stick around in OU, but not right now.

SJCrew · Nov 14th, 2012, 3:31:40 AM

If we can all agree that Genesect is a centralizing Pokemon, what are the effects of his centralization? How will OU improve without his presence?

Nov 13th, 2012, 5:54:20 PM	#54
Stone RG Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 127 Past the End	Well, in my opinion this was the most necessary of all suspects we could do, far more important than exca, the last suspect stats (or REAL OU stats as a matter fact) just sent an S.O.S message to the metagame: passing the 53% mark in usage is ridicoulus, and just makes you realize how much of an unhealthy metagame we are playing in, genesect definetely crossed a line. Despite all that, genesect is rather overcentralizing, not broken, because all its sets has perfectly viable counters, the problem is the ease how it fits in any team, without even effort, i dont have to tell of you the niches of every set, because you know it. I have no idea how this test will end up, but it will sure be a much more interesting test and votation. __________________ Hax is actually the game deity teaching you the value of effort and humility, and, without it, we will be just playing another chess game. NOTE: if somebody EVER haxes you and say he embraces it, just chill, take the nearest glass and break it, and remember: they're only dickriders. -StonedRG

Nov 13th, 2012, 6:27:10 PM	#56
iAdam Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 4 ._. stalker	genesect is a killah, he just sweeps with bug buzz/flamethrower/ice beam/ Tbolt it pisses meh off so much XD __________________ Avatars ...

Nov 13th, 2012, 7:53:03 PM	#61
Electrolyte Cause you keep me coming back for more Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,039 And I feel a little better than I did before Mentor	Rock Polish is definitely its best set, but a good portion of the success of that set is simply because the scarf set simply exists. The fact that unless you know your opponent's set, there are so many options it can fire at you. It can just use its plain above average coverage to KO you, or it can U-Turn out to a partner that counters your counter, or it can seize the forced switch due to possibilities to pull off a surprise Rock Polish and THEN sweep. Its versatility and coverage are what truly makes it frightening. It's like that feeling when you think your Lando-T has good it good taking a Thunderbolt but then BAM an Ice Beam hits you in the face. __________________ Stuff (Click!): l l l l l l l l l VM me for an OU / LC team rate! MURKBRO MAFIA

Nov 13th, 2012, 8:15:27 PM	#63
PenguinX slow loris ˁ(⦿ᴥ⦿)ˀ Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 419	I'm of the opinion that Scarf Genesect is the most overrated Pokemon in BW2. As others have said, 99 Base Speed is just a massive let down and people have started to catch-on to how weak these Scarf Genesect-reliant teams tend to be to Scarf/DDMence and Volcarona. Dual scarfers is certainly a viable strategy in such an offensive metagame, but when you have to start running a second scarfer to make-up for Genesect's shortcomings you really have to consider if scarf Gene is actually as good as it made out to be. Its like building a team with Forretress, and then adding SubToxic Tentacruel as well to make-up for the fact that Forretress can't spin against Jellicent. Why not just streamline the process and ditch Forretress altogether? (possibly a bad example its late and i'm rushing this). I'm not saying double scarfers is bad because it definitely has its merit, but when people are trying to argue a case for Scarf Genesect by saying "yeah you can just run scarf terrak alongside it to beat up Volcarona and Salamence!" you aren't selling it well at all! Rock Polish and EBelt are still excellent. I'm sort of glad to see Rock Polish finally catch the attention of the masses; 1-2 months ago I wouldn't have even considered voting Genesect Uber because people weren't really abusing its potential and instead just using it for roles that some other Pokemon arguably do better anyway (scarf!). Now I'm sort of on-the-fence about it. __________________ http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc...ho5ko1_400.gif

Nov 13th, 2012, 8:31:45 PM	#64
FaceFaceFace Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 177 New Zealand	Genesect Pros: 1. 600 BST 2. 120 in BOTH attacking stats 3. Download 4. Decent speed at 99 5. Better defenses compared to the likes of Mence with an *amazing* typing with only *ONE* weakness which can be mitigated by rain. 6. Not priority weak 7. More or less omnipotent movepool, coverage can easily be patched up by team-mates 8. Not SR weak 9. Ridiculous sweeping/wall-breaking/momentum gathering ~~potential~~ 10. Terminator-like appearance 11. Hard-Counters low on usage except Heatran Genesect Cons: fajoeijflgkjflagkjdf I actually cannot think of one. Weak to spikes, maybe? Even Scarf set isn't that bad - lay some hazards, force some switches - win the game. Genesect is like the Terminator. Scary when he's coming after you, absolutely lovely with ridiculous punch-lines when he's on your side. __________________ Say NO to GENESECT

Nov 13th, 2012, 5:16:44 PM	#52
Dracule Mihawk Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 146	I've always found RP Genesect to be its most threatening set. Scarf is ok, but the letdown comes mainly from that base 99 speed. I personally prefer faster scarfers such as Terrakion or Keldeo, or Mence even. While it is nice having STAB on its U-turn, the failure to outspeed things such as +1 mence can be a big let down.But the real problem lies in how easily RP gene can sweep teams, you cannot know his full moveset for certain straight away as some might run Giga Drain, and if one chooses to use an expert belt it makes setting up even easier. The sad thing is when you see people lowering Def IVS on pokemon just to avoid genesect getting a download boost, which is pretty stupid. Things like Garchomp have good bulk that is being ruined due to this iv reducing. Furthermore, heatran now having to run shedshell, which isn't even that great of a set as Heatran really needs lefties. Even the usage statistics are insane, 50 per cent. It's hard not to say that metagame is overcentralised around this bug. And it can be quite hard to know Genesects set, one move shown in its arsenal does not reveal what set it is. U-turn is common on most sets apart from RP, coverage moves are common through out all sets as well. By the time you find out which set it is it will be too late and your team will be damaged.

Nov 13th, 2012, 6:38:09 PM	#57
yee Signed and Sealed in Blood I would die for you Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,033	I'd just like to throw in the ring that Scarf Genesect not being able to revenge faster things with it's Scarf isn't a letdown at all, just run 2 Scarfers if it's an issue. One of your Scarfers is already a super valuable Steel-Type and an even more annoying Rotom-W when it comes to pivoting (some people, including me believe you could make an argument for Rotom-W already because of how good it is at this), so running another one to just be a catch all or just secondary fast mon is hardly a bad idea when almost every team is just a few sweepers paired with maybe a revenge killer, Deo-D, weather setter or Dugtrio. Double Scarf is just too useful right now to be worried that one shouldn't be running it purely because it can't revenge a few threats. You shouldn't have any shortage of power to break stall with either.

Nov 13th, 2012, 8:40:46 PM	#65
ssbbm Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 999 Where you can play Pokemon with Singing Narwhals and Dancing Clouds	2000 glicko? also why dont people run jirachi in rain that literally counters half the meta u guys! also rp genesect is the only broken genesect Last edited by ssbbm; Nov 13th, 2012 at 8:52:22 PM.

Nov 13th, 2012, 9:26:48 PM	#66
Sol64 Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 266 London, UK	Hmm this is interesting due to the Release and Rise of Genebug. I've been trying out this pokemon in a sun team (don't stop reading yet) with Flame Charge, Giga Drain (Solarbeam being ineffective due to weather wars) Bug Buzz and Ice beam. Rock Polish Life Orb would make the most sense to you all but i've been trying this out mainly to abuse the sun (and to try and make it work on my sun team) and to also have some sort of fire type move, and if Download bolsters it, makes it a pretty good move that does some sort of damage while raising my attack. It also does a number on other steel types and if they switch...well, free speed boost. Of course having giga drain with life orb (and again if download bolsters sp.atk) will deal out a good amount of damage while healing. Others moves to keep it short will just hit like a truck. It's been working out surprisingly effective for me (though it took me 3 matches to get a final team working optimally). __________________ France VGC '12 Nationals Top 32 - Knocked out before finalists lounge Gamerbase Pokemon Tournament London #4 Finalist VGC12 B/W2 Unova Dex Arcandorus RMT thread

Nov 13th, 2012, 9:54:15 PM	#68
Andeby Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 911 Norway	Am I doing this right? Am I halfway? OU (current), by the way. Yeah, I was the one running 5drag1mag. Caused a lot of disapproval from my fellow ladder climbers. I don`t mind though, as it got the job done. Last edited by Pocket; Nov 14th, 2012 at 4:38:40 AM.

Nov 13th, 2012, 11:15:26 PM	#70
PDC A coward dies a thousand deaths, a soldier dies but one Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 609	I gotta say this was a pretty fun ride so far. I haven't really started yet and just have been team testing for the most part but have decided on 2 main alts and what teams I am going to be using for the rest free round. The Glicko difference is pretty annoying considering that you can be 8-0 and at 2000 rating or 10-0 and at 1700. Been messing with me a lot recently. I like the suspect metagame a lot more. It was basically BW before Genesect was released. I will probably be going for the first Reqs this week then finish off the second one later. But I really have to ask why we can't just use the regular OU ladder as they are the exact same metagames we are testing. Not sure why we had to make an entirely new one to get the job done. But into the actual metagame, this testing is pretty fun so far and I am looking foward to getting Genesect out of here for good. I like how people still believe Scarf is the best set. Scarf is great but RP and Expert Belt are probably the best sets to run overall. They are amazing sweepers and can wreck teams if given the right support. Simply get SR down, eliminate Blissey or Heatran and you basically have the game in your hands. The fact it can take basically al priority just allows it to decimate all other offensive teams that rely in stuff like Scarf Keldeo to beat it with. Genesect is really showing diversity now with all these sets emerging and right at the probable ending of it's reign too which I honestly think is a bit sad in a way. Haven't really played too much in the metagame without Genesect so I am gonna have to see if it is healthier or not without the metal machine, but I am leaning towards the fact Genesect really isn't conventionally broken, just unhealthy for the metagame. It just gives so much centralization and is dominating the charts. __________________ Leave me a visitor message if you want me to rate your team!

Nov 14th, 2012, 1:23:04 AM	#71
X5Dragon Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 1,032	I'm seeing much more freedom at the suspect ladder atm (for starters I got owned by a Harvest Exeguttor when I was trying to figure out what the hell it was) and a hail team with a SpD bulky Kyurem with roost and sub. Oddly enough Heatran usage seems to be the same, which is fine since he is an excellent mon on his own. On the issue of is it over centralizing or broken I think it's the former, kind of like "it's not me it's you Mr. Metagame and your non released trappers and banned previous suspects." __________________ X5Dragon Dances all D-Nite (PS: #1; PO: Smogon #1, Beta #27) http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3454642 Two year old team still dominating ladders everywhere ^_^

Nov 14th, 2012, 2:56:52 AM	#74
X5Dragon Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 1,032	HP Ground does nothing to Balloon Heatran or even Balloon Blaziken/Excadrill, but it does everything to it's coverage. Point 2 being a Scarf Chandelure doesn't give two switches about your U-Turn, since it will either catch you with when using a Scarf Gene or in case of an RP Set, murder you anyway since you won't be having it. We aren't talking other suspects or retesting but we are establishing the fact that Genesect in this meta right now is overcentralizing, nothing more. Maybe in Gen 6 where everything starts fresh he might stick around in OU, but not right now. __________________ X5Dragon Dances all D-Nite (PS: #1; PO: Smogon #1, Beta #27) http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3454642 Two year old team still dominating ladders everywhere ^_^

Nov 14th, 2012, 3:31:40 AM	#75
SJCrew Believer, going on a journey... Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,802	If we can all agree that Genesect is a centralizing Pokemon, what are the effects of his centralization? How will OU improve without his presence? __________________ (02:53:55) +shrang: sleep is epic (16:14) .No Scrafty in UU.: CBtar? (16:14) .No Scrafty in UU.: that sounds like a not bad set (16:04:25) +Steamroll: nobody likes me @Relados: snowflakes has no sense of humor