The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[hilarious]

PK Gaming have you just not decided on Zoroark yet or have you decided its B rank? If undecided try using Kingdra+Specs Zoroark and watch as all bulky waters get mauled with Grass Knot and steels eat Flamethrower. Fun fun fun they never see it coming, especially if you lead with "Kingdra" against Swampert leads. hopefully would be victims wont read this post.

Also have you decided on Gligar and Dusclops and Galvantula and Ambipom and Cryogonal and Slowking (all of which were touched on in earlier posts)? It would be a shame if the best opposition to my arguments were "Dusclops is shit. Its worse than Ambipom." To be fair Ambipom is C rank and I am arguing Dusclops for D rank so I never even argued it was better kokoloko.

Speaking of which kokoloko you said Slowking in general could be better because it is more versatile. I dont understand how a defensive Pokemon failing to counter the vast majority of the tier adds to versatility. I wasnt talking about stall at all so I am not sure why you brought that up but in my experience Slowbro is only decent for stall teams since it adds little in terms of roles...all it is a physical wall. Cannot phaze or wish support or cleric or spinblock or set up hazards or spin. Generally on stall you want as many roles as possible on your team. You make a reference that Slowking can better take on mixed attackers (things that can attack from both sides). Well barely any of these even exist in UU but lets look at them anyways. Cobalion can attack from two sides sd, cm and maybe work up mixed or something. If the slowbro switches into SD Cobalion it almost always wins, Slowking can win but maybe just a little less of the time. Both lose one on one if they switch into cm Cobalion unless Scald gets a first turn burn where Slowking can win but Slowbro would still lose (assuming HP Ghost). And of course both could deal with a mixed set easily although i have no idea what would go on a work up set (ok seriously who uses that?). In fact barely anyone uses CM Cobalion either so Slowking is rarely more effective and usually more ineffective against this mixed attacker. Virizion creams slowbuddies both with any set physical or special or mixed. Meleotta is usually special and beats them no matter what with sub cm and if physical has a harder time against Slowbro. If mixed Slowbro loses more often (assuming it has Tbolt). Victini can actually beat Slowking much more easily than Slowbro with a CB set although both usually beat CS sets. Lure victini beats up both of them with thunder/grass knot but Slowbro is much more likely to die. Still Slowking wil not win one on one, both can 2hko each other but Victini is faster. Mew rapes everyone no matter what because its Mew but it rapes Slowbro more with a NP set. Still if you come in on a NP you should know to go away and if you come in on a Giga/Tbolt you have enough health to run away and regenerate. You are in a far better position with Slowking though because you can stay in and not die instantly. Tornadus is the last mixed one and Slowking loses to physical sets while Slowbro doesn't always lose and can at least cripple him with Twave while RD sets hurt Slowbro much more than Slowking although both will not be 2hkod by LO Hurricane and both can deal serious damage back with rain boosted Scald. And Slowking beats Kingdra much better yadayadaya although it still loses one on one to DD versions. Frankly going over this I am not even sure who is better vs potentially mixed attakers and thats not even mentioning Slowbro beats a whole helluva lot more physical attackers while faring only a little worse against special ones (they both lose to most special attackers).

Since Snover just came in with Snow Warning I think it should be given a ranking. And Walrien. I dont really know how to rank a weather inducer/abusers though so um have fun with that.

I guess you're right on Druddigon I was clueless to even what set made it B rank.

For machamp hax will not always play a part, I would say this is about in a quarter of all matches. Thats confusion doing nothing for two turns which is entirely possible and allows you time to murder machamp. If you think the pretty good but not pretty great bulk in conjunction with Dpunch usually helping out because a wide movepool makes it B rank then thats ok I guess.

Registeel looks good in C rank to me if its at the very bottom of C rank (you should NOT be giving Chandelures and Heracross and Mienshaos semi free openings).

[PK Gaming]

Cryogonal: Never use this thing / rarely see it, so it's tiering position is almost entirely based on theorymon. If you're confident that it's C-tier, I don't see any harm in moving it up, though I'd like to see more opinions on cryo before that happens. (might be hard, not many people use Cryogonal...)

Gligar: Gligar gets a bum rap for being useless, but its ability to nearly guarantee that Heracross (Heracross) is useless for the entirety of the match is awesome. It actually turns Heracross, Scarf Mienshao / HP Ice-less Mienshao into a liability. Eviolite lets you somewhat check those Fire-type physical attackers, despite not having a resistance to their STAB. Overall its hard to kill when played correctly. panamaxis does a better job at explaining why gligar is good.

Galvantula: It's passed up all the time for being inferior to other Electric-types(I don't even think most UU players know about its existence), but that doesn't necessarily mean its bad. Galvantula is just a beast; what even walls it outside of Snorlax? It's coverage lets it beat both varieties of ground types (Energy Ball for ground / rock & HP Ice ground / flying ...) and its "viable" Thunder is insanely strong. It's fast too... 108 gets a jump on conceivably everything in UU barring Raikou, Crobat, Weavile and a few other faster threats. There are some pretty decent counterarguments: its disappointing base Special Attack (97 Base SpA), terrible defensive stats, and SR weak, but nobody has made a case against Galvantula yet. I mean the only Galvantula's i've seen on ladder were shitty scarf variants :/

Ambipom: The hate against Ambipom is way, way, way too overblown. It's really not that bad! Re-quoting because i'm lazy.

Ambipom post explanation post #1

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Cesterp explained this already well, but I will post my thoughts anyway. Ambipom isn't a bad pokemon, it's just that people (and according to what I bolded, you do too) use it wrong. Using U-turn on Ambipom is, simply put, a bad idea, and a lot of people have already talked about this on differents thread on this forum, but there's simply no point on using U-turn Ambipom in Gen V, as, thanks to Team Preview, you're scouting nothing, because you already now from start what the opponent answer to Ambipom is. You also said that most teams have an Ambipom counter, and what's the problem here? Everybody also runs a Heracross counter, a Zapdos counter or a Darmanitan counter, and that doesn't make them bad pokemon, especially considering Ambipom can heavily damage (and sometimes even defeat) those counters with proper prediction. A Fake Out / Return / Low Kick / Shadow Claw (or Beat Up) moveset is what you should be using on Ambipom, as with that set, Ambipom can both abuse Fake Out and hit his counters (like Cobalion, Rhyperior, Cofagrigus etc) for high damage.

Ambipom explanation post #2

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Ambipom isn't THAT bad. Being able to switch in, slap something with a STAB Life Orb Technician +3 Priority Move, not take any damage, and switch out to live another day is a somewhat nice thing. If your team lacks phazing, Ambipom can do a half decent job at killing set-up sweepers. It can also kill a lot of common and frail scarfers (kills Flygon after some chip damage, just for a common example- Mienshao and Weavile both don't exactly like tanking Outrage/Earthquake/U-Turn). It's not like it's so bad that it just deserves to die in a well. It's good, there's just better alternatives. A lot of the hate directed to it is simply because far superior choices exist (unless for whatever reason your team NEEDS the most powerful Fake Out). C rank is something like- "This pokemon can be effective given the right support. It either has crippling flaws or is severely outclassed." D is that the Pokemon isn't effective. E is that it literally can do nothing. I don't see Ambipom doing nothing in any battle ever. It's always Fake Out'ing some threat that might cause problems, and can really rack up some damage when facing hyper offense. Sending it to the E rank would just be out of spite, not because it's legitimately the most terrible thing ever.

Dusclops: I'm sorry hilarious, but I really can't see how Dusclops is any better than E-tier. It's arguably the biggest crutch in UU; there's just no way you can make a conscious effort to use this thing without artificially making your team worse. If you're going to use a defensive ghost-type, why use Dusclops thing over Cofagrigus? It has Eviolite, but it's gains in bulk aren't worth the lack of leftovers. I can't think of many Pokemon it's better at checking than Cofagrigus. They're both good at shutting down Fighting-types, (Dusclops is "better" but Cofagrigus isn't far behind), and that extra physical bulk doesn't help it against some of the premier physical attackers in the tier, like Victini, Darmanitan, Chandelure, etc. It's stuck using Night Shade as an attacking move, which is kind of bad (at least Shadow Ball hits Psychic & Ghost-types for SE damage). Unlike Cofagrigus, it's only form of recovery is Pain Split (I won't even comment on Restalk, because that's an obviously bad set.) I'm willing to hear you out, because I have feeling you've successfully used it in the past, but so far i'm not buying Dusclops being any good.

Zoroark: If anyone is seriously willing to argue it's tiering position, I can do that. I'll reply to you in a bit Salem1.

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update
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Registeel up from D-tier ==> C-tier

[TPO3]

I can't see Cryogonal moving up past where it is now. While it has decent speed and great special defense, it has absolutely 0 physical defense. Base 30 is just pathetic, it doesn't even reach 100. (uninvested obviously.) It has a few nice niches in the fact that it can spin away hazards, especially in hail teams, special attack to abuse Blizzard a little bit, and instant recovery, but it's just so frail. It's 70/30 on the physical side, weak to stealth rock, weak to some extremely common attacks (Heracross, Chandelure, Darmanitan, Bronzong, and Snorlax). The attackers its supposed to wall (the special ones) actually wall Cryogonal in return, and just phaze it out or status it. Pkmn like Empoleon, Suicune, Blastoise, can all just use status moves, and then phaze, which racks up Stealth Rock damage.

I'd also like to point out that Cryogonal is really only being used because of hail. Hail is not officially part of the UU metagame yet. It's under a suspect test. If hail becomes a normal part of the meta I could see Cryogonal moving up, but I really don't see it outside of hail. I see no reason to use Cryogonal instead of Blastoise or Hitmontop except for spamming Blizzards. This is also why Snover and Walrein don't have rankings. (@hilarious)

[Doron]

Dusclops should be D-tier alongside Registeel. Dusclops shouldn't be compared to Cofagrigus as they fill different roles. One is a tank, the other is a wall. With poor recovery.

As that one guy that posted before said, Dusclops' defenses with Eviolite shit ALL over Cofag's defenses. Dusclops also has an excellent support movepool with options like Trick Room, Curse, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Taunt, Toxic, Gravity, Destiny Bond, Disable, Will-O-Wisp, Grudge, Confuse Ray, Embargo, Memento, Swagger, Mean Look (can be used in tandem with Curse / Pain Split or Destiny Bond, though the latter will mean Dusclops goes down as well).

I'm intellectually rigorous 'n' shit, so I haven't checked Cofag's movepool to see how it compares, but Dusclops is pre-Unova so I'd imagine that it has more options.
(Edit: I just checked Cofagrigus' movepool. Pretty much identical to Dusclops. I have the memory of a goldfish so I can't keep both movepools in my head at a given time, but Cofag has access to Haze as a pseudo-phazing move so I guess it could be said to have a better movepool than Dusclops.)

I'd say that the problems with Dusclops are:
A) four moveslot syndrome
- not necessarily a bad thing for a defensive mon as it allows you an element of surprise
b) No reliable recovery
- Pain Split is pretty effective on Dusclops though, possibly moreso than any other pokemon
3) Low offensive stats cause it to be setup fodder. Night Shade / Seismic Toss can only get you so far

Dusclops for D-rank, alongside the other walls with poor recovery!

P.S.: Cofagrigus isn't good enough to be S-Rank. Fighting / Ghost coverage is only impressive when Fighting isn't HP Fighting, and the defensive sets are unimpressive at best (they remind me a lot of Weezing without Flamethrower).

[hilarious]

point taken about Snover and Walrien sir but you're generally wrong on Cryogonal which I use outside of hail to pretty great success consistently being in the top 5 for the ladder in September/August (and the metagame hasn't changed too much since then except hail right?!) with Froslass (suicide spiker)/swampert/mono attacking kingdra/cryogonal/otr cofag/bulky sd heracross. You can tell this team does not care terribly much about Stealth Rock since most my team is neutral to it and froslass hardly counts since it leads 99% of the time. Nobody uses Tspikes really but Cryo is cool for that too and the main reason I use him is to get rid of nasty nasty Spikes. With a Life Orb Sableye, Cofagrigus and Chandelure all usually quickly fall to Ice Beam and HP Ground even with little offensive investment. I am confident it is C-tier but i am also confident Stealth Rocks should be banned along with Kingdra and Chandelure and Togekiss (hehe kidding on the square) and Scald should have its burn chance reduced to 10% so um you need other people's opinions.

Cryogonal isn't actually meant to wall special attackers it meant to be able to check them and spin on them but thats not true what you said it can wall some of them or take a hit or two and KO back like Nidos/Roserade/some Zapdos and with Haze its never ever set up fodder.

I will use Dusclops again and prove I am right and you're all wrong. For a stall team like Qwilfish/Arcanine/Dusclops/Snorlax/Umbreon/Kabutops/ Dusclops was far superior over other ghosts I tried because Curse and because it could absorb EQs like it resisted them. Apart from the Ground weakness I mentioned, one of the only problems with that stall team has is weakness to hazards (that Kabutops has a hard time spinning on Sableye and hehe Dusclops) and the fact its hazard setters are the same type (can never set up any hazards against Electrics and Grounds and strong special attackers.

also since I just noticed your post Doron haze is worse than Curse on full stall since it generally will not let you beat last poke set up still (they are rest talkers that can outstall you). And forget that support movepool other stuff can do it better (Sableye=prankster=win for pure support)

[TPO3]

which I use outside of hail to pretty great success consistently being in the top 5 for the ladder in September/August (and the metagame hasn't changed too much since then except hail right?!)

Can't tell if serious or just trolling.

The meta has changed quite a bit since September/August... for one, Mew, Tornadus, Virizion, and Meleotta all dropped to UU, and Cofagrigus went up to 24th overall after previously being RU, and used in less than 1% of all UU battles. Roserade was the queen of UU in September/August, and bulky offense or balanced teams were everywhere. Spikestacking was common; you pretty much needed a spinner unless you were using an all-out Hyper Offensive team. Since then Heracross unseated it as the King of the tier, and Roserade has been passed up by Chandelure, Blastoise, and Bronzong.

In addition, rather than balanced being the typical playstyle, we're seeing Offensive teams having a bigger presence, even before hail. Pokemon like Kingdra (was 17th, now 11th), Raikou, Zapdos, Nidoking, and Crobat (was outside top 20, now 17th) continue to rise in the tier, while pokemon like Snorlax (was 6th, now 12th) , Slowbro, and Porygon2 continue to drop. So... I think it's safe to say the metagame has change quite substantially. Why this matters? In a metagame with a more balanced center, Cryogonal would fulfill its role much better. Base 95 Speed is surprisingly fast on a spinner, so you'd be able to get Recovers in front of a lot of pokemon. However, since the metagame is more offensive, it becomes much easier to outspeed and overpower Cryogonal, especially with weak defense and 25% taken from Stealth Rock.

Again, Cryogonal isn't bad. It fulfills a niche. 70/135 SpDef is cool, 95 Speed with Recover is too, but aside from fulfilling its niche, it just doesn't do much.

Cryogonal isn't actually meant to wall special attackers it meant to be able to check them and spin on them but thats not true what you said it can wall some of them or take a hit or two and KO back like Nidos/Roserade/some Zapdos and with Haze its never ever set up fodder.

I highly doubt Cryogonal can take a Sheer-force boosted Life Orb Focus Blast or Fire Blast from either of the Nidos. 70/135 HP/SpDef is impressive, but I doubt its impressive enough to take an attack that barely less powerful than getting STAB, is super effective, and probably has a maximum investment. Maybe from like a 252 HP/252 Def support Nidoqueen, but I just can't see it taking a Focus Blast from a 252 SpAtk Modest Life Orb Nidoqueen.

i am also confident Stealth Rocks should be banned

after reading that I am pretty sure I just let myself get trolled... but whatever, it's the internet I guess.

[hilarious]

And i should have added i am still always in the top 5 of the ladder i just stopped playig for a bit in october, in fact i am occasionally numero uno under french fries (in NOVEMBER), i know the metagame. but i get your point i am using a different team now and just recently i played with my old stall team again because i thought you brought up points i overlooked. and i think you're wrong, virizion is major major major but is only slightly more threatening than Cobalion which already existed (setting up on bulky waters like a baws). Mew was always crazy but i have solid responses to him, and by the way dusclops can counter sd attacking variants while snorlax umbreon counters np ones. a good general switch in is like dusclops or arcanine if its actually np go to the special wall! Cofagrigus was never a real threat against defensive teams and its easier to spin against him than Sableye imo so i am liking that. i dont get why you bring up roserade and such like you do "oh no now its only used on 20% of teams instead of 22%!!!" same difference a couple ranks really dont matter and its just good to enhance your rhetoric "this is the king of uu blah blah blah". heracross was always dominant since moxie was released and its scarf set (which incidentally dusclops counters) was common even before then.

This metagame though is not more balanced in my humble opinion, a balanced game would allow for stall playstyles to be more than a random occurance, yes stall teams will be my love forever and i will always whine about them not being dominant enough. so much for the greatest playstyle anyhow.

If a niche is checking nearly all special attackers while being able to spin and pose and offensive threat then that niche is perfectly good enough to bump cryo up to c imo.

You didnt have to doubt me calc wise, not only do i have experience and i know what im talking about (usually) you could have just checked the calcs yourself. yes a cryo can live a sheer force fire blast from lo modest nidoqueen/ timid lo nidoking even after stealth rocks and proceed to ohko back with lo ice beam with a set similar to 252 hp and 252 speed (ohkos nidoking at least but you would irreparably damage nidoqueen anyhow, which is actually better than killing it if you were planning a moxie heracross sweep). it can also take a zapdos' heatwave assuming it has a lo and timid.

No i personally believe stealth rocks should be banned because its centralizing as fuck but i am pretty sure thats not a popular opinion. i mean all sr does is take away a couple dozen's pokemons usefulness and deal 200% worth of damage a game and force what would be shitty pokemon (blastoise, hitmontop) into high usage. perfectly legitamate move right?!! (totally off topic i know this ban would never happen even in my pokemon infested dreams).

oh you got another techinal point wrong btw, cryo has 105 base speed not 95 so it can easily outspeed zapdos and bandgon and shaymin and murder them all.

[Bent1ey]

Actually from an objective point of view Stealth Rocks is pretty overcentralizing, the argument to keep it into the metagame its that it brings variety into the mix. Pokes that can lay rocks, spin and then spin-block are invited into the meta in which purely offensive pokemon would likely rule entirely otherwise. Because of this, Stealth Rock is never going to get banned, it polarizes the metagame in a different way, but that's going to happen no matter as long as powerful effects exist in the game.

Cryo is a very interesting pokemon, but spinners that are weak to rocks are a bit handicapped to do their job.

[superbadd]

Cyro is pretty awesome and underrated, actually. I would recommend it going low B tier even. Specially defensive counters raikou, zapdos, and Cofagrigus,. That's three S tier pokemon, which is huge. The best thing raikou can do is specs Aura sphere and zapdos needs LO Heatwave to even 2HKO. It even counters specs kingdra, which can only 3HKO with modest hydro pump! It can also beat the best spike stacker in the tier, roserade. That's something that no other spinner can claim. It also walls loads of other special attacker like nidoqueen, yanmega, and porygon-z. Its downside is that awful defensive stat and its typing. Pair it up with slowbro and it should be fine. Cyro for low B.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

Cyro is pretty awesome and underrated, actually. I would recommend it going low B tier even. Specially defensive counters raikou, zapdos, and Cofagrigus,. That's three S tier pokemon, which is huge. The best thing raikou can do is specs Aura sphere and zapdos needs LO Heatwave to even 2HKO. It even counters specs kingdra, which can only 3HKO with modest hydro pump! It can also beat the best spike stacker in the tier, roserade. That's something that no other spinner can claim. It also walls loads of other special attacker like nidoqueen, yanmega, and porygon-z. Its downside is that awful defensive stat and its typing. Pair it up with slowbro and it should be fine. Cyro for low B.

Actually Cryogonal is set-up fodder for SubCMRaikou, which is the most common Raikou out there, since its Ice Beam is suprisingly weak and iirc without investment doesn't even break its substitute. Plus, there is one big fat Pokemon called SNORLAX that can pretty much do everything Cryogonal can except better other than Rapid Spinning, which Blastoise can do. Snorlax also beats Chandelure, Nidoqueen, Porygon-Z, and everything that Cryogonal can while having an easier time, more attack, a lot moer bulk, and a better typing. Specs Yanmega can actually 2HKO Cryogonal I'm pretty sure, since it can do a hefty amount Snorlax, and Chandelure is really common... Snorlax beats it! Cryogonal has an awful typing and its physical defense is one of the worst in the whole game.

This is Theorymon I will admit but it doesn't look like it would be great. Claydol is weaker, but Cryogonal isn't really that strong and its movepool is pretty dissapointing bar recover, and most of the time I would use Snorlax.

[superbadd]

Cyro has haze and frost breath(always crit), that's why it beats raikou. Besides that, the whole point of using it is to spin. You seriously need to test it out, it's a lot better in practice then it is on paper. It's a pretty decent spinner becuase of its immunity to spikes and t-spikes.

Did you even run calcs? Specs yanmega does 44% MAX with modest specs bug buzz while in return cyro OHKO's with frost breath. Recover is what puts it above snorlax because snorlax is reliant on rest, which will in most situations, make it a liability.

Specially defensive set is recover/frost breath/rapid spin/haze|toxic

[TPO3]

Originally Posted by Fat hilarious

And i should have added i am still always in the top 5 of the ladder i just stopped playig for a bit in october, in fact i am occasionally numero uno under french fries (in NOVEMBER), i know the metagame. but i get your point i am using a different team now and just recently i played with my old stall team again because i thought you brought up points i overlooked. and i think you're wrong, virizion is major major major but is only slightly more threatening than Cobalion which already existed (setting up on bulky waters like a baws). Mew was always crazy but i have solid responses to him, and by the way dusclops can counter sd attacking variants while snorlax umbreon counters np ones. a good general switch in is like dusclops or arcanine if its actually np go to the special wall! Cofagrigus was never a real threat against defensive teams and its easier to spin against him than Sableye imo so i am liking that. i dont get why you bring up roserade and such like you do "oh no now its only used on 20% of teams instead of 22%!!!" same difference a couple ranks really dont matter and its just good to enhance your rhetoric "this is the king of uu blah blah blah". heracross was always dominant since moxie was released and its scarf set (which incidentally dusclops counters) was common even before then.

I'm not doubting that your TEAMS are good. The point of this thread isn't arguing teams. I have no doubts that your teams have shifted to deal with Mew and co. just fine. My issue is that you said Cryogonal itself is just as good as it used to be because the meta hasn't changed at all. You can't tell me Cryogonal is as good as it used to be when you have to change your entire team to account for Mew, Virizion, and Fighting-types that the metagame is now centralized around. Heracross is in first by roughly 5%, which is a couple thousand battles. You can't tell me that those "few spots" are not a big deal.

If a niche is checking nearly all special attackers while being able to spin and pose and offensive threat then that niche is perfectly good enough to bump cryo up to c imo.

You didnt have to doubt me calc wise, not only do i have experience and i know what im talking about (usually) you could have just checked the calcs yourself. yes a cryo can live a sheer force fire blast from lo modest nidoqueen/ timid lo nidoking even after stealth rocks and proceed to ohko back with lo ice beam with a set similar to 252 hp and 252 speed (ohkos nidoking at least but you would irreparably damage nidoqueen anyhow, which is actually better than killing it if you were planning a moxie heracross sweep). it can also take a zapdos' heatwave assuming it has a lo and timid.

I would re-do those calcs if I were you. It takes an attack yes, however it does not OHKO Nidoking without an absolute max calc, and this is after Stealth Rock. It does even less to Nidoqueen, never OHKOing even after a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock damage, and this is with 0HP/0 SpDef, if you're using the support Nidoqueen, it runs 252 HP. Also "irreperably damaged" is a very vague term. Wishpassers synergize extremely well with Nidoqueen thanks to typing. There's also a chance that (again, 0/0) Nidoqueen is left with more than 30% of its health. (Before Leftovers/Black Sludge.) 252 HP Nidoqueen is just going to be left with more. I wouldn't exactly call that "irreperably damaged." Again, it doesn't OHKO Zapdos outright either without what is basically a max calc. If I spun away Rapid Spin, it just doesn't OHKO Zapdos. This is also working off of 0/0 Zapdos, it could be running SubRoost, Physically Defensive, or Specially Defensive, which all run 248 HP, the SpDef Dos running some additional (224???) in Special Defense. They could all Toxic back, or just outright phaze you for some more damage.

oh you got another techinal point wrong btw, cryo has 105 base speed not 95 so it can easily outspeed zapdos and bandgon and shaymin and murder them all.

...Yes it could (95 SpATk, my bad.)...except then you have to be running a lot of speed, in which case you lose a lot of bulk, which would allow some heavy special attackers to possibly grab some OHKOs. So... all of those pokemon that you listed are always going to outspeed Cryogonals in UU.

It even counters specs kingdra, which can only 3HKO with modest hydro pump!

Did you even run calcs? Specs yanmega does 44% MAX with modest specs bug buzz

These calcs are accurate. But you never factor in Stelath Rock, after which Yanmega and Specs Kingdra will ALWAYS 2HKO. Specs Kingdra also always 2HKOs in rain, and has a Chance to OHKO Cryogonal if Rain and Stealth Rock are both up.

Recover is what puts it above snorlax because snorlax is reliant on rest, which will in most situations, make it a liability.

Let's not compare Snorlax to Cryogona, it's like comparing Apples to Oranges. Cryogonal is a spinner that checks most special attackers, is immune to hail (and can use Blizzard), and has high (for a defensive pokemon) speed, that uses Recover. Snorlax is phazer that completely walls special attackers, or you slap a Choice Band on Lax instead and turn it into a killing machine. Either way, it has more Special Defense (factoring in HP), more Physical defense, clears itself of status, but has lower speed, and doesn't use Rapid Spin. They do two different things.

[hilarious]

yes Bent1ey write to your local congressman (or senator) and stress your opinions on sr's undeniable brokeness.

i'm sorry i was too eager to respond to your post TPO3 I dont know why I went off on a tangent about my stall team on my first paragraph when you were talking about Cryogonal (never used cryo on stall although i imagine a togekiss counter+spinner would be nice) that section was meant to defend dusclops which for some reason i thought somebody was attacking.

my calcs are right, 0 spa cryo with a life orb (as i put in that post 252 hp 252 spe with lo) will ohko nidoking, always, and will also ohko the majority of nidoqueen btw if you gave cryo the support you said it could have (spikes, sr). also nidoking from my experience does not particularly enjoy spamming around fire blast and focus blasts unless in dire circumstances since its stabs are generally more reliable (your scenario will rarely come up in any case). he does ohko all versions of zapdos after sr except specially defensive which by the way can't do much back at all and while if zapdos does manage to get a spin off sometime zapdos still cant ohko cryogonal back while he outspeeds and 2 hit kos him (much closer to an ohko than a 2hko still).

i think i've talked enough about cryo unless of course you think i misdid a calc.

[TPO3]

Well you might have mentioned you were using Life Orb Cryogonal, as NOBODY would have just assumed that. Life Orb on a Rapid Spinner is just silly 95% of the time. Starmie is the only pokemon that pulls something like that off, but that's because it gets Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam all as coverage, behind higher speed, higher special attack, and actually putting EVs into Special Attack.

Even so, your Zapdos calc is still wrong. Life Orb Zapdos has a chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, it does 68-80% with Heat Wave. Cryogonal will OHKO Zapdos if I don't get a spin off. IF I do though, it does 86-102%, so it actually has a smaller chance to OHKO Zapdos then Zapdos has a chance to OHKO back. And you don't OHKO the Support Nidoqueen, although that's not a big deal as it can't OHKO back, even after Stealth Rock.

[hilarious]

last post on this i swear. i am using this calc which i find very reliable http://honko.byethost8.com/wall_calc.html and it tells me cryo will take 62.09 - 73.46% from zapdos assuimg zapdos is offensive life orb and cryo has 248 hp evs. Thats never an OHKO and Cryo will only die after sr and lo recoil.

So you are wrong, not me. hahaahaha

Ice Beam has a small chance to ko offensive Zapdos at 100% health but since offensive Zapdos usually use LO you must figure that it will probably be at 905 health like Cryo and worst case scenario is both die for Cryo and best case scenario is that you are sane and you kept SR on their side of the field and you get an easy KO.

Support nidoqueen takes 75.78 - 90.1% from 8spa lo cryo which is entirely possible an OHKO after SR and Spikes which is what you said, "nidoqueen doesnt get ohkod even after sr and spikes".

So you are wrong again.

You call me silly which i find offensive but whatever, i dont understand you. I have said multiple times I was referring to LO Cryogonal in my previous posts i was under the impression you knew lo meant life orb. if not my apologies. yo didnt have to assume it i explicitly stated it, so you're wrong about that too.

Clearly you never used LO Cryogonal yourself and you are already heavily judging me for using it, I suggest you try it out before attacking me for using it. the purpose of lo is because i literally ran out of evs, i couldnt invest in enough bulk to live nidoking attacks while still having enough power to ko him and speed to outpace him. So i used life orb and also for some time nevermeltice both of which were quite decent although i wanted a boost to HP Ground to hurt Chandelure more so I stuck with life Orb.

This is truly all, unless you want to put more false calcs up.

[TPO3]

OK so... the calc I am using is officially high on drugs. I put the same stats into a different calc and got a different answer. I'm just going to do myself a favor and not use that BS calc anymore. Maybe I'll stop looking like a dumbass <__<. Also superbadd was arguing for a specially defensive set, so I just assumed you were arguing for the same thing. Clearly I need to lrn2reed. Maybe then I'll stop looking like a dumbass too.

I'm still skeptical of Cryogonal's performance as a spinner though. 25% from rocks, plus the special attack it switches into. It has a grand total of ONE resistance and ONE immunity that it doesn't like to switch into anyways. Anything with a ground attack probably has Stone Edge in its arsenal for coverage. (The nidos have Fire/Focus blast, so Cryogonal doesn't switch into them.) It's a safe bet that Cryogonal takes 45% as it comes in. If it doesn't get burned/poisoned/something else. Something like Blastoise could just Phaze it instead. And you're not recovering any of that damage with Life Orb as an item. If you spin, you're just putting yourself below half health. Cryogonal just can't spin at the same caliber that something like Blastoise or Hitmontop can. Claydol can arguably spin better than Cryogonal due to having Mixed defenses, setting up Stealth Rock and/or Screens, while being able to check stuff like Raikou. I also feel your set is just a setup fodder for something like Raikou or Kingdra. Anything that ups its special defense except for Virizion is going to just set up all over Cryogonal unless you use Haze. (toxic is unreliable because of Sub/ChestoRest.) Cryogonal also posesses weaknesses to the pkmn that currently control the meta, namely Heracross, but also Mew (Nasty Plot and Swords Dance both carry Fighting moves, Stallbreaker Mew has Taunt.), Mienshao, Chandelure, Bronzong, Darmanitan, Arcanine, Hitmontop, and although not being "weak" to, it still loses to Snorlax and any DD Kingdra. All of those pokemon are either listed as an S-level threat, used in the top 15 of the most recent stats, or both. If you have something that can refute this, I'll just shut my mouth and let somebody like RT or Koko handle this, because I've made a fool of myself too much already.

[Gone to the beach]

I'd like to nominate Lanturn for B rank(it isn't on the list at all). It's ability and typing allow it to notably wall a lot of special attackers just as well as Lax. It has a nice choice specs set that performs a role similar to BandLax. Besides the electric/flying types it walls, Lanturn allows one to have another bulky water type without stacking electric weaknesses. It is the #1 Togekiss switch having a chance to OHKO the paraflinch set after rocks(while rocking specs). It works as a great chandelure check when Lure isn't specs-locked into shadow ball or carrying energy ball.
The problems with it is that unless one running choice specs his or her attacks are pitifully weak. It also adds another ground weakness that isn't friendly in UU.

[cim]

I used Lanturn a lot and frankly I would never say it's anything above C rank, and not "just as good as Lax" by any stretch of the imagination. Without Specs, it has a painfully low Special Attack, and with Specs, it loses a lot of the bulk it needs to actually check special threats. It's also got a problem common to a lot of Bulky Waters - not a great amount of support moves. It can status and Heal Bell, but that's it really. It actually doesn't beat Raikou despite resisting BoltBeam - SubCM still wins. And I wouldn't say that it's a "great chandelure check" if it can come in on only one move in its moveset...

I actually found the best way to use it to beat certain Bulky Waters was for it to run Volt Switch in tandem with a Rotom-H my team already had. Because it's slow, its Volt Switch would go last, so Lanturn takes the hit, then you get two Volt Switches in and Lanturn is free to take the second hit on Rotom's behalf. This and Toxic was the only way I could give it enough power to beat bulky waters without going to Specs.

If you're looking for a specially defensive bulky water counter that also resists Electric, Rotom-C is a much better Pokemon.

It can be a member of an okay team, and it can pull a little weight, but it's just not great and it needs a ton of support. Clearly C rank.

[Bent1ey]

So Roserade just got Technician, any comment on it? I don't really think it makes all that much of a difference, specially because losing Natural Cure is kind of lame, but it adds a bit more versatility to Rosie.

[C AllStar]

I want to nominate Kabutops for B rank, or even A rank. Personally, i think that kabutops is the best spinner in the tier, even better than blastoise, with its swords dance spinning set commonly used in RU. It beats every spinblocker in UU one-on-one and can even sweep late game.

Calcs:
OTR Cofagrigus
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cofagrigus: 282-333 (88.12 - 104.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Cofagrigus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 180-214 (68.7 - 81.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Defensive Cofagrigus
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Cofagrigus: 231-274 (72.18 - 85.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 111-132 (42.36 - 50.38%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sableye
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Sableye: 425-500 (139.8 - 164.47%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb burned Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Sableye: 213-250 (70.06 - 82.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Specs / Scarf Chandelure
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 343-406 (117.86 - 139.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mismagius
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 235-278 (89.69 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Froslass
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 84 Def Froslass: 468-554 (136.44 - 161.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 84 Def Froslass: 187-222 (54.51 - 64.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Froslass Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 57-67 (21.75 - 25.57%) -- possible 4HKO
Dusclops (which sucks)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 165-195 (58.09 - 68.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

[Chimera404]

I think the problem with Kabutops is that it's so fragile that it is hard to get to +2 in the first place. Your calcs are pretty dang impressive but it doesn't make up for the fact that a large portion of the metagame can wreck it before it gets a boost. The one thing it can go into really easily is choiced fire-types locked into STAB moves. This alone is pretty decent because, well, it's a great check being able to fire off either STAB move to make prediction harder on the opponent. It brings the momentum to your side, which is always a good thing, but then you have to contend with the fact that you won't really be able to swap it into stuff.

Problem is, your calcs are kind of selective. How does Kabutops fare against Empoleon? Against Virizion?
Holy crap, it 2hkos Virizion after a single boost
But Virizion smashes it back reeaaaaal good. and outspeeds. and OHKOs. and can gain momentum. and can recover with Giga Drain.


I think C-rank would be good for it.

[C AllStar]

Sorry but I really do not think that kabutops are on par with the sucky pokemons like ambipom and azumarill in C rank. Undeniably, kabutops' special defence is frail with only 60/70, but 60/105 physical bulk is nothing to be overlooked. It can take even some SE attacks (weaker ones obviously). The metagame is definitely not kind to him with fighting and electric types running rampant, but kabutops is just good at spinning consider that it can scare out such a number of pokes and spin.

It can SD up and spin on (I admit that some of them sucks):

Utility Blastoise
0 SpA Blastoise Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 102-120 (38.93 - 45.8%) -- 13.28% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Physical Defensive Arcanine
0 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 34-40 (12.97 - 15.26%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock


Restalk Snorlax
0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 48-57 (18.32 - 21.75%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 208 HP / 124 Def Snorlax: 234-277 (45.61 - 53.99%) -- 96.88% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(I don't think lax with stay in and WW)


Standard Umbreon
0 Atk Umbreon Payback (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 73-87 (27.86 - 33.2%) -- 92.29% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock


Standard Crobat
192 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 69-82 (26.33 - 31.29%) -- 35.38% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock


Houndoom
252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 66-78 (25.19 - 29.77%) -- 0.63% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 129-152 (49.23 - 58.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (which is easily precictable)


Froslass
0 SpA Froslass Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 57-67 (21.75 - 25.57%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock


Defensive Cresselia
0 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 102-121 (38.93 - 46.18%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Qwilfish
0 Atk Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 79-94 (30.15 - 35.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


Similar situation applies to the numerous choiced fire types and other choice users locked in the wrong move.

Kabutops can even run many sets to get past its usual counters. With Tornadus' drop, setting up rain is incredibly easy and rain kabutops is even more a monster.


Kabutops @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet / Swords Dance
- Low Kick / Swords Dance / Rapid Spin

In rain, kabutops easily OHKOs / 2HKOs the entire meta. Originally good checks are suddenly unreliable. It outspeeds the whole unboosted metagame and hits everything hard. No scarfer slower than scarf tornadus, which is faster than adament kaburops in rain by one point, can outspeed it under rain.

Calcs:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in rain: 168-199 (49.7 - 58.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion in rain: 168-199 (51.85 - 61.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 255-302 (68.54 - 81.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Cofagrigus in rain: 153-183 (47.81 - 57.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cobalion in rain: 208-246 (54.02 - 63.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

After a SD, it is basically a gg

Calcs at +2:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou in rain: 324-382 (100.93 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion in rain: 336-396 (103.7 - 122.22%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in rain: 333-394 (98.52 - 116.56%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Cofagrigus in rain: 308-363 (96.25 - 113.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cobalion in rain: 413-487 (107.27 - 126.49%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 281-331 (69.55 - 81.93%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and three layers of Spikes


I know that rain kabutops requires support, but it is just not too hard to provide stealth rock and fit a rain dancer on your team. I am not saying that rain kabutops is insane, but in certainly needs to be prepared.


Besides, a sash set seems viable. With a focus sash, you are never OHKOed unless you are hit by multi-hit moves (on what?). If your opponent uses an physical move at you, your speed increases due to weak armor and you are ready to sweep. Of course, this set needs loads of support. But if you can garuntee spin, kabutops is certainly a threatening late game sweeper.
Kabutops @ Focus Sash
Trait: Weak Armor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Low Kick


Overall, kabutops requires some support to function, but it can certainly get its job done most of the time and even more than that. I support kabutops for A-rank.


A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.


Besides, no love for Moltres? Certainly, moltress has a less powerful fire blast than chandelure and losses 50% of its health switching into SR. However, moltres has a powerful secondary STAB in hurricane allowing it to 2HKO even slowking and crocune, better spped and better bulk. Even it is weak to SR, it still has solid 90/90/90 defenses and has roost to compensate that. It can even stll with pressure with a defensive subroost set. It is certainly a force to ber reckoned even in UU. I would like to nominate it to B-rank.

[Bent1ey]

Frankly I just can't see Kabutops in A rank, I suppose B rank could be argued everything considered, and I'm fully willing to take into account it's viability as a rapid spinner, but considering that Kabutops gets utterly destroyed by some of the most used pokemon in the tier -hey, at least it beats Chandelure!-, I don't seeing performing all that well.

[Super Mario Bro]

Originally Posted by Fat panamaxis

Milotic for an easy B tier. Pure water with recovery gives it a nice niche over other water types, it can sleep phaze and haze, and it can take on chandelure and kingdra at the same time which is very cool. Unlike slowbro it's not getting wrecked by megahorns and shadow balls and it makes a great switch into all the ground types as well. Refresh is very viable too and a simple set of scald dtail recover refresh means you can phaze/burn a lot of mons while the walls can't toxic you to death. I think this stuff should be enough to grant it B tier since it isn't really strictly outclassed by any of the other bulky waters.

Tbh I'm not sure if suicune should be B tier, and it should never be a tier above milotic in any case. If anything I'd argue that suicune is outclassed as milotic/slowbro/slowking do the bulky water thing better (cos recover, new rest mechanics kind of ruined suicune) while slowbro is arguably a better CMer because new rest mechanics make crocune or sleeptalk-less cune deadweight against anything that can phaze.

I agree with this. Milotic deserves to be at least Rank B. It has amazing defenses, Recover (which Snorlax and Suicune do not have access to), good special attack, the ability to absorb status relatively well (with Multi Scale), and a great pHazing move in Dragon Tail. It always puts in a ton of work whenever I use it, and often flat out walls weakened teams.

[TPO3]

Milotic is outclassed most of the time by the other bulky waters, though. You can use Recover, but then Milotic becomes vulnerable to Toxic, just like any other bulky water. That might raise its defense, but in the long run, it just wears Milotic down. And without status, base 79 defense isn't all that high. The only thing Milotic has that other waters don't is Haze and Marvel Scale, so the ability to abuse a ResTalk set, which would keep Milotic's Marvel Scale active, but even then there are so many Pkmn that can stop it.

If you use a Physically Defensive set with recover, you're better off using Slowbro. It has regenerator, Slack Off (basically recover), and a much broader movepool. If you want to use an offensive set, you're better off with either CM Suicune, Agility Empoleon, or maybe even NP Slowking. ResTalk with (p)hazing is all Miloic has on other waters, and Suicune can arguably do this better with 100/115/115 defenses and pressure. (just substitute Roar for Dragon Tail.) Milotic's Dragon Tail won't even break through Kingdra's substitute (Milotic has base 60 attack, Slowking has base 75 and needs 12 EVs to do so.) I just can't see Milotic going any higher when you could be using the other bulky waters to do the same thing better.