The OU Viability Ranking thread

[thebrownie]

It's weak to stealth rocks, it can't shoot solar beams at toeds that come in because in rain you have to charge solar beam and it's 1/2 base power. One specs hydropump in the sun does like 95%. Sun teams are more weather dependent than any other weather and is weak to sun and rain. Ninetails is a worthless pokemon in of its own right wereas specs toed ohko scizor/genesect and hits the bulkiest pokemon really hard.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Hell yeah everyone agrees with me about Ferrothorn.

Originally Posted by Fat evillocke

What about Ninetails in S-rank? It can Toxic, Will-o-wisp, and set up sun! Why is it still A-Rank? It can also shoot off solarbeams at toeds that try to come in. Iv'e used it with great success.

Ninetales is definetly not deserving of a placement in S-Rank. So many Pokemon can use Will-O-Wisp out there, EVERYTHING learns Toxic, and if you Solarbeam a Politoed that switches in you are pretty much checkmating yourself because on the next hit BAM you're hit with a Drizzle-boosted Water-type move and you are dead - Solarbeam is also weakened in the rain.

Heck, screw it, Ninetales for B-tier. While Ninetales is the only Pokemon capable of setting up Drought, it is a very mediocre Pokemon in most oter respects. In a Drizzle populated metagame, it is hard to use Sun effectively, as many of the abusers are pretty mediocre in relation to the rain and even the sand. Also, Ninetales is extremely hard to keep alive througout the match, thanks to a Stealth Rock weakness, a terrible defensive typing that makes it lose to most weather starters oftentimes (Even Abomasnow can use a Choice Banded Earthquake to beat it!) Its stats in all areas are pretty bad, and 81 Special Attack is pretty pathetic for OU standards. (Garchomp and Tentacruel have a comparable Special Attack)

Lets look at A-Ranked Pokemon...

A-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Ninetales, as I just described, is incapable of sweeping with its average base 100 speed and pretty bad 81 base Special Attack. Its defensive typing is arguably the worst in the game, and it is weak to a lot of Pokemon's STABs or coverage moves. Its physical bulk is also pretty bad by OU, and in a mix of it all it has a LOT of flaws.

And now B-Rank...

B-Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Many, many people on OU seem to agree that they place Ninetales on their team for the SOLE purpose of setting up permanent Sunny Day. Almost every team that has a Ninetales will be only used for the sun - I have never seen an OU team that has a Ninetales and no Fire-types or Venasaurs, unlike other weather starters. Ninetales CAN prevent itself from being dangerous set-up bait with Roar, but doing so makes it a very weak Pokemon, and an absolute magnet to Politoed. It is a decent Special Attacker, but it is easily stopped by a bunch of Pokemon like Heatran of forced out by Pokemon like Terrakion, Keldeo, ScarfToed, and other dangerous threats. While sun is a useful tool, Ninetales suffers from almost everything else and unlike Politoed, is arguably absolutely helpless if it loses its Sunny Weather.

[Spyro]

Agreed that Ninetales is B tier, Ninetales is just a terrible pokemon overall. 100 base speed means it can't lead as other weathers will probably go first. It also always loses to Choice Specs Politoed/Choice Band Tyranitar (even burned).

[Scarfwynaut]

No offense swamp rocket, but you are looking too much at its offensive characteristics, and pretty much ignoring its support characteristics. If we look at Politoed or Doexys-D for only what they can do by themselves, they are pieces of shit, but no they provide pivotal support. The support ninetails brings to the table helps out sun sweepers a ton, turning them into a metagame defining force. Ninetails does have its flaws, but overall, sun is dangerous, a bit unrelated, but they had to stop VULPIX from terrorizing UU, to me that speaks volumes. Also if you look at B tier, Ninetails clearly has a leg up on the rest of the supporting pokemon there. Is it lower A tier, yes, but I don't think its B tier.

[StairFall]

They had to stop drought, vulpix simply happened to be the only thing below OU with drought. Ninetales can run no moves and its still nearly the same as a bulky status tales. If the opponent didn't bring an enemy weather you can lead with tells and them you're essentially down 6-5. Also Ninetales requires a large amount of support itself, I simply can't see a support pokemon that needs support being a - rank.

[malomyotismon]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

No offense swamp rocket, but you are looking too much at its offensive characteristics, and pretty much ignoring its support characteristics. If we look at Politoed or Doexys-D for only what they can do by themselves, they are pieces of shit, but no they provide pivotal support. The support ninetails brings to the table helps out sun sweepers a ton, turning them into a metagame defining force. Ninetails does have its flaws, but overall, sun is dangerous, a bit unrelated, but they had to stop VULPIX from terrorizing UU, to me that speaks volumes. Also if you look at B tier, Ninetails clearly has a leg up on the rest of the supporting pokemon there. Is it lower A tier, yes, but I don't think its B tier.

I agree, ninetales is even used on teams as an anti weather pokemon as some teams would rather have sun than sand hail or rain. Thats all i have to say for now on ninetails, I am too tiered to think, i just wanted to agree.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Ninetales definitively isn't a B-Tier pokémon by any means. It may be a crappy pokémon, but it at least has some supportive capatibilities - and I am not even talking about Drought, which is a fantastic support that by itself makes Ninetales an A-Tier Pokémon.

The only reason why I don't agree that it's S, is because I think that at this point you are also talking about what your Ninetales can do for your team, outside summoning sun, and unfortunately, it isn't much. Ninetales just doesn't have the same survivability that Politoed have, thanks to the latter's better defensive typing, better defenses and neutrality to Stealth Rock.

[New World Order]

Well, I haven't played much BW2 OU, and am really not qualified to discuss something that requires so much in battle experience as viability, but this post just has so many misconceptions that I have to respond.

Originally Posted by Fat StairFall

They had to stop drought, vulpix simply happened to be the only thing below OU with drought. Ninetales can run no moves and its still nearly the same as a bulky status tales.

You've clearly never played Ninetales besides the occasional bog standard defensive set. Ninetales actually has quite a bit of variety in terms of sets as well as utility in it's movepool. Sunny Day Ninetales can change the complexion of a weather war at moments notice, and keeps Politoed on the run for the most part. Ninetales also has Roar and status moves to prevent itself from being set up fodder. If you're feeling ballsy, you can even try a Nasty Plot set, because a +2 sun boosted Fire Blast will hurt if you're unprepared.

If the opponent didn't bring an enemy weather you can lead with tells and them you're essentially down 6-5.

Seems like a valid point... except that Politoed isn't exactly a catch all check to multiple OU powerhouses either. Sure, if you suicide with Ninetales against a non-weather team, you'll be 5v6, but have you factored in how dominant the likes of Volcarona, Venusaur, and Heatran are if left uninhibited? I'm sure everyone's had the misfortune of facing the wrath of a Keldeo, Tornadus-T, or Starmie in the rain. They just deal so much damage and are such a pain to play around, requiring the utmost caution with every move. don't they feel like they had the power of 2/3 Pokemon? If sun faces non-weather, I'm any competent opponent would play it cautiously and treat it like a 6v7 than go aggressive like they would a 6v5.

Also Ninetales requires a large amount of support itself, I simply can't see a support pokemon that needs support being a - rank.

Lets see, Ninetales needs: Stealth Rock removed, Pokes that help in weather wars, Pokemon to work around fire resists like Heatran. You know what all these needs have in common? You would have all of these already, as most sun sweepers need this kind of support anyway. Even if it were Heatran who had Drought, you would still have Pokemon who could remove Stealth Rock, Rain and Sand checks, and Pokemon who can play around sun checks. Unless of course you want your sweepers to be picked off with ease.

[SJCrew]

That statement about Ninetales being an anti-weather Pokemon is false. Sun IS the weather that other setters are trying to prevent, and if those other setters didn't exist, Nintetales would either have been an S-ranked OU or D-ranked Uber by now. Ninetales itself simply doesn't stack up as an anti-weather Pokemon, considering its inability to switch in on other setters safely. It should almost always appear on dedicated Sun teams.

[PK Gaming]

Full disclosure:

I'm not actively ignoring every post made in this thread, i'm deliberately trying to think of ways I can edit the ranking list without being arbitrary. In the case of Ferrothorn being A-tier, i've already posted my thoughts on it before

On Ferrothorn's tiering placement:
If this tier list were made in BW1, i'd have no problem with placing Ferrothorn in A-tier, but as it stands in the current metagame, it doesn't belong in A-tier. The claim that's capable of walling everything is patently false, it actually flat out loses to the vast majority "of big name" new threats in BW2 like Keldeo, Genesect, Tornadus-T, and Thundurus-T. Not to mention the fact that Breloom received a massive buff, Garchomp getting unbanned, the rise of Terrakion & Landorus and most of the older Dragons got Fighting moves make Ferrothorn's job even harder than before. The end result is the BW2 metagame is really harsh towards Ferrothorn. That doesn't mean its necessarily bad, it's still king at walling certain threats, and hard to play around if you a grass-type or a spinner but it's nowhere near as good as it was during its prime. Also DEOXYS-D makes it its bitch

and while my opinion hasn't changed, I want to hear more feedback. Is Ferrothorn really A-tier? I want to hear more arguments before I make any overt changes.

As for other cases like Mew; i'm honestly not sure where to tier it and I have no idea how it performs in the metagame. I guess I could put it in C or B-tier but I think it would be best if I hold back on tiering it until after the suspect test (that way we'll know for sure if its presence in OU will be permanent or not). Thoughts?

PS: Truth be told, I'm thinking of lowering a bunch of Pokemon that are profoundly affected by Genesect (Haxorus, Hydreigon, Zam, etc) since there's really no point to using them. Thoughts on this too?

[Swamp-Rocket]

The last page was pretty much an entire page of support for Ferrothorn being an A-Ranked Pokemon...

Anyway, I wouldn't lower Pokemon like Hydreigon, Haxorus, etc. until after the suspect test. Even if Genesect stayed OU, Zam should still be B-tiered. Since Zam *can* OHKO with an HP Fire (which it runs a lot for other Pokemon like Forretress and Scizor), outspeeds non Choice Scarf variants, and more, I wouldn't say it would be a potential dropdown regardless, even if the scarf is the best set (it had even more issues with Scizor, which was more common in OU, at one point anyway).

[alexwolf]

@PK

A ton of posts about why Ferrothorn is A rank have already been made. I don't think anything else can be said. If you don't want to put it there that's another matter, but most people here (both good and bad) believe that it is A rank material. Finally i don't even know what the last sentence is meant to prove... Deo-D makes Ferro its bitch? Deo-D does that do every single poke that is slower and can't OHKO/2HKO, as if Deo-D gets SR and Spikes it has done its job. That's why Deo-D is a suspect in the first place, because it can set-up and prevent set-up against so many Pokemon.

[LucaroarkZ]

Personally, I can't see how Ferrothorn could possibly be A-ranked. I never had trouble with it, and when I used it, I found it consistently underwhelming. It's murdered by pretty much every Fighting-type in the tier, which isn't exactly doing it any favors. Hell, I've been able to exploit its 4x Fire weakness even in Rain. As for tanking Dragon moves... The only Dragons I can think of that don't carry Fire moves often are Kyurem-B and Rain Dragonite. As a Spike-stacker, I found Deoxys-D to be 100% better 100% of the time since Deoxys-D has actually usable Speed and Taunt. Pokemon that beat Ferrothorn? Well, Taunt from Deoxys-D shuts it down completely, but there's also Breloom, Lucario, Volcarona, Heatran, Genesect, Keldeo, Terrakion, Magnezone, Ninetales, and.... Okay, the list is already massive. Basically, OU is full of crap that Ferrothorn isn't so good against. I mean, yeah, it has a load of resistances (naturally, it's a Steel-type), but its two weaknesses run rampant in the tier.

In my opinion, keep Ferrothorn in B rank.

[thebrownie]

LucaroarkZ, I'm assuming you don't run a rain team since most rain teams don't have the many ways to deal with Ferrothorn. Even if the rain team you're using has many threats to Ferrothorn... mainly fighting pokemon, a simple switch suffices. It's job isn't to tank fighting or fire hits. I mean I suppose Excadrill is a shitty pokemon if your team is built with enough counters such that it's not even a threat.

The reason why Ferrothorn is so good is because of the prevalence of rain teams. If this was an alternative meta where sun was the predominant weather, ferrothorn wouldn't be great and Genesect wouldn't be suspect and probably would be A tier.

[LucaroarkZ]

What kind of idiot with a Rain team isn't going to run a way to beat Ferrothorn? Most of my teams actually aren't overloaded with Pokemon that can handle Ferro, most of my teams have one or two Pokemon wih Fighting/Fire moves by default. Rain isn't even as good as people make it out to be IMO, possibly because I've found Ferrothorn to be pitifully easy to handle.

Also, yes, maybe a simple switch suffices, but it doesn't change the fact that the metagame is full of threats Ferrothorn has a hard time wih.

[PK Gaming]

fabra cadabra

=====
update
=====

Ferrothorn up from B-tier ==> A-tier

[Remedy]

I'm wondering why Gengar is B tier and not A tier :
- Its typing is great, 3 immunities, useful resistances to moves like bug. And allows Gengar to spin block.
- It has a great offensive presence, thanks to its access to the unresisted Fighting/Ghost combo
- It is INSANELY versatile, priority users like Scizor? MystikGar is there. Scarf users? they usually can't compete with Gengar's speed if he also has a Scarf.
Noone knows which move you run, is it Sub and Pain Split? or maybe Sub and Disable.. and who knows, maybe he'll take the spinner with him into the grave with Destinity Bond. He can even go for a bulky set and cripple your sweeper with Will O Wisp. And let's not forget the Hypnosis able to basically "kill" any counter you could throw at Gengar.
Pursuit? well the number of Pursuiter able to outspeed Gengar is damn low, and noone of these faster pursuiter resist Gengar's atacks. The slower Pursuiters have to kill the substitute and then get disabled.

There is no 100% way to counter a Gengar, and I see no spin blocker in the A tier. It's not an argument on its own, but this B tier is not deserved for a pokemon so high in the usage ranking. He fills many roles that noone else can do and it's one of the most versatile pokemon.

So to me, Gengar deserves A tier.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Remedy

I'm wondering why Gengar is B tier and not A tier :
- Its typing is great, 3 immunities, useful resistances to moves like bug. And allows Gengar to spin block.
- It has a great offensive presence, thanks to its access to the unresisted Fighting/Ghost combo
- It is INSANELY versatile, priority users like Scizor? MystikGar is there. Scarf users? they usually can't compete with Gengar's speed if he also has a Scarf.
Noone knows which move you run, is it Sub and Pain Split? or maybe Sub and Disable.. and who knows, maybe he'll take the spinner with him into the grave with Destinity Bond. He can even go for a bulky set and cripple your sweeper with Will O Wisp. And let's not forget the Hypnosis able to basically "kill" any counter you could throw at Gengar.
Pursuit? well the number of Pursuiter able to outspeed Gengar is damn low, and noone of these faster pursuiter resist Gengar's atacks. The slower Pursuiters have to kill the substitute and then get disabled.

There is no 100% way to counter a Gengar, and I see no spin blocker in the A tier. It's not an argument on its own, but this B tier is not deserved for a pokemon so high in the usage ranking. He fills many roles that noone else can do and it's one of the most versatile pokemon.

So to me, Gengar deserves A tier.

3 immunities is useful, but... its resistances are not that useful with such horrible defenses... it's pretty much dying to most neutral attacks. Even +1 unSTABed Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower 2HKOes him, and Gengar is going to take a lot of damage from any non-Bug-type attack.

[Remedy]

Obviously since you're talking about the offensive set.. I mean why in the world would you expect him to tank neutral hits with that with 0 investment in HP or def :<

[superstar]

I think we have hammered out where most of the OU Pokemon really belong, so I'd really like to see some discussion over lower tier Pokemon, such as:

Stoutland -- Excellent sand sweeper, used successfully in many teams. Low B-tier I think

Victini -- The premier fire-type sweeper. B-Tier.

Darmanitan -- Possibly outclassed by Victini but still incredible. C-tier

Azumarill -- Able to revenge a whole host of threats. C-tier

Lilligant, Sawsbuck, Victrebell -- Can be outclassed by Venusaur, but each have their niche C-tier, D for Bell

Ditto -- everyone knows what he does. For some reason, he was a lot better in DW than he is in OU. Probably because of team preview. C-Tier

Azelf, Mew, Aeodactyl -- Solid suicide leads, although they are outclassed by Deo-D most of the time

Quagsire -- solid answer to most set up sweepers, except that (censored) Genesect

Where do ya'll think these Pokemon fit into the bigger OU picture?

[thebrownie]

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

What kind of idiot with a Rain team isn't going to run a way to beat Ferrothorn? Most of my teams actually aren't overloaded with Pokemon that can handle Ferro, most of my teams have one or two Pokemon wih Fighting/Fire moves by default. Rain isn't even as good as people make it out to be IMO, possibly because I've found Ferrothorn to be pitifully easy to handle.

Also, yes, maybe a simple switch suffices, but it doesn't change the fact that the metagame is full of threats Ferrothorn has a hard time wih.

It's not that rain teams don't have any way of dealing with Ferrothorn, just that it's significantly harder without strong fire attacks. I mean tentacruel burn can easily take care of ferrothorn, but everyone runs a way to beat genesect, but it doesn't change the fact that it's amazing. Not every rain team runs a fighting move and any person that keeps ferrothorn in to take a fighting attack is an idiot.

[LucaroarkZ]

Originally Posted by Fat Remedy

I'm wondering why Gengar is B tier and not A tier :
- Its typing is great, 3 immunities, useful resistances to moves like bug. And allows Gengar to spin block.
- It has a great offensive presence, thanks to its access to the unresisted Fighting/Ghost combo
- It is INSANELY versatile, priority users like Scizor? MystikGar is there. Scarf users? they usually can't compete with Gengar's speed if he also has a Scarf.
Noone knows which move you run, is it Sub and Pain Split? or maybe Sub and Disable.. and who knows, maybe he'll take the spinner with him into the grave with Destinity Bond. He can even go for a bulky set and cripple your sweeper with Will O Wisp. And let's not forget the Hypnosis able to basically "kill" any counter you could throw at Gengar.
Pursuit? well the number of Pursuiter able to outspeed Gengar is damn low, and noone of these faster pursuiter resist Gengar's atacks. The slower Pursuiters have to kill the substitute and then get disabled.

There is no 100% way to counter a Gengar, and I see no spin blocker in the A tier. It's not an argument on its own, but this B tier is not deserved for a pokemon so high in the usage ranking. He fills many roles that noone else can do and it's one of the most versatile pokemon.

So to me, Gengar deserves A tier.

Gengar's a good Pokemon and does have a good defensive typing, but its problem is its lack of bulk. I've used Gengar for spinblocking quite a bit, and it's incredibly difficult to switch in compared to Jellicent because of its lack of bulk. It also doesn't last that long unless you run SubSplit, which isn't as good as it was in DPP. Although Gengar is faster than most of the Pursuit users, Scizor has Bullet Punch and I'm pretty sure Tyranitar survives Focus Blast thanks to Sand. Jellicent is absolutely the better spinblocker because it has what Gengar doesn't: Bulk and Recover. Jellicent can actually survive attacks from Starmie, while Gengar... Not so much. Jellicent also doesn't attract Scizor; Gengar does. That should end the spinblocker discussion on Gengar.

Bulky Gengar is terrible, this isn't ADV. People have used that as a spinblocker in ADV, but in no way is Gengar's bulk good in this generation, even with investment. MYSTICgar? Don't get me started on MYSTICgar. You may be able to Protect to scout CB Scizor, but Swords Dance Scizor can outright set up on your Protect. Please just use real answers to Scizor. Specially Defensive Tyranitar survives your Focus Blast and kills you anyway, and ScarfTar's Pursuit OHKOes after Stealth Rock and Sand damage, regardless of switch. When we get into UU Pursuit users... Or, to be more specific, Weavile, well, Gengar is slower. It may have unresisted Fighting/Ghost, but don't forget that Shadow Ball is its strongest usable STAB. It's not Hidden Power weak, but I've still found that you need to attach Life Orb to do respectable damage with Shadow Ball. If only Gengar had Nasty Plot or something.

[PDC]

I'm thinking of lowering a bunch of Pokemon that are profoundly affected by Genesect (Haxorus, Hydreigon, Zam, etc) since there's really no point to using them. Thoughts on this too?

Genesect is obviously the new craze of the metagame, but I don't think it really warrants dropping these otherwise solid Pokemon. Zam is still a great Pokemkn that has many uses as a back up revenge killer or offensive check. It can easily take on HO teams with ease from my experience and is a pretty cool Pokemkn to use in general. I really don't think Alakazam deserves to be dropped, we should at least wait until the suspect test ends until we make any decisions. Alakazam also can deal a heavy amount of damage with Focus Blast or Hidden Power Fire, not making it completely helpless. Being immune to weather and hazards is a gift and really allows it to shine. Alakazam deserves to stay where it is. I don't like how it can easily be taken advantage of, but Zam was given a gift this generation of a great ability and makes use of it fine. Even better it can defeat and outspeed Terrakion, Landorus - I, Garchomp, Latios, Gengar and Starmie with ease.

Haxorus I can agree with as it never was really an amazing Pokemon to me anyway, especially with Genesect running around. It had some pretty cool roles in BW1 as it could slam through walls with ease and do a great job at setting up and sweeping, not being forced to use Outrage thanks to Mold Breaker. Taunt was also a pretty cool move to use as you can prevent slower hazard users like Heatran, Deoxys -D ( Jolly ), Forretress and Skarmory. Haxorus just isn't as good anymore personally and just fails to do well. Dragonite is honestly a better dancer as it has more uses like bulky sets, support sets, acess to priority so it doesn't get screwed over by faster weakened Scarfers like Keldeo, Latios and Landorus. It also is a great counter to Breloom as it can easily take Mach Punch or Bullet Seed while Lum Berry can cure status of Spore if needed. Lower Haxorus as it doesn't have as many uses.

Hydreigon is a great Poke, people just don't use it much. It has some distinct advantages over Latios. It may be slower but it has acess to Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Earth Power, Superpower, Work Up, and acess to the strongest viable Draco Meteor in the game. Latios is not going to be running a Modest Nature, which Hydreigon does just fine as Timid doesn't offer many distinct advantages. Hydreigon doesn't need to be walled by Jirachi or other bulky special walls like Blissey thanks to Fire Blast and Flamethrower. It is not helpless to Genesect as Genesect is not going to be coming into any move from Hydreigon aside from Dark Pulse or Earth Power that will do less than 50% to it. Hydreigon is an awesome Pokemon who is sadly overshadowed by Latios. It has some flaws though like that weakness to virtually all priority that is commonly seen. But overall it really is a solid choice for teams that often gets overlooked a lot for the faster choices like Latias and Latios. Hydreigon getting Roost and Superpower gave him even more viability as it can now break stall up pretty easily while still staying Healthy. Hydreigon also has access to U-Turn to gain momentum which is just another amazing choice. I would argue Hydreigon for A Rank, but that's for another post.

[evillocke]

Gengar does not deserve A-tier at all. Even resisted hits outright KO it. 65 base defense is piss, and with things like Breloom, Terrakion, and Kyu-b running around, it won't stand up at all.

[fire r a g e]

How is Metagross more trouble than its worth?