DuskMod: A major modification to the standard metagame

[MrCookie]

I like that. i think i might work on those tiers, you forgot bisharp though, that thing is s-rank all the way

[Oiawesome]

Keldeo: Didn't gain too much, but lost three gens worth of competition. Rain is gone, but Ice Beam and Water Absorb are comforting consolations: I think only Jellicent can resist Water/Fight/Ice coverage. Scratch that, there's Tentacruel, the Slowbrothers, and Starmie.

Keldeo now gets shadow ball wich lets it plow through its old counters btw.I will ask dusk if I can make the official list for " in teir teirs"

[Arizona]

http://piratepad.net/viabilityorganizationanddraft
We've made a good start today I think, but we've barely scratched the surface. A lot more combined experience is needed to confirm our suspicions, not to mention the huge number of pokemon that haven't been started on (Including Bisharp, Mr Cookie)! I'd be very interested in what the community has learned so far.

Just try to keep it concise. I've been editing for brevity (creating this on the fly naturally left unneeded words), because if everyone chimes in with similar points it's gonna get bloated. I also started making save points. When you've finished, make sure to save so that we can restore to old drafts if need be.

As of right now, the pokes with votes for S are Porygon2, Dragonite, Throh, Chandelure, Cryogonal, and Keldeo. If anything on that list (or not on that list) seems wrong to you, then go vote on it!

[Numbuh 214]

An idea: could you, instead of removing freeze entirely, either replace it with flinching (to not affect things that use say, Sheer Force Ice Beam) or rework freeze so it's less random?

A thought I had, regarding the latter:

1. Base thaw chance is lowered to 3%. The reason why will become apparent if you read on.
2. Every turn that the thaw check fails, this thaw chance is multiplied by a number (let's say 3, for example purposes). This means you'd have a 9% chance turn 2, 27% turn 3, and 81% turn 5. This means it would be impossible to stay frozen for more than 6 turns.
3. If the user has an ability relating to Fire (Flash Fire, Flame Body, Blaze, Turboblaze), this chance is further multiplied by 1.25; thus, things like Heatran would get a guaranteed thaw turn 5.
4. If a move that would thaw the user hits a frozen target, it also thaws the target. (Unless moves have changed, this is only to close a loophole with Scalding frozen opponents.)
5. A frozen target hit by a move that isn't Ice-type multiplies the thaw chance by 1.1; thus, getting a lucky freeze with Powder Snow and battering away with Tackle won't work for long. If a target with an already guaranteed thaw chance is struck by a move in this nature, the Pokémon will thaw immediately.
6. A frozen target stops experiencing passive effects, and any turn counters on said statuses freeze with the frozen. Entry hazards also count as being hit by a move, and thus also fall under the former rule.
7. This percentage will not reset on switch-out.

So... thoughts? Numbers are extremely, EXTREMELY malleable.

[zyrefredric]

Well, if we are changing Freeze, can Sleep be altered somehow? It just doesn't make sense to me how a sleeping Pokemon doesn't wake up after eating a Fire Punch or Ice Beam to the face. I'd say keep the Sleep mechanics as is, but just add a function that wakes up the sleeping Pokemon when it is hit by the opponent's attack. Makes way more sense flavorwise, and adds up spice to the Sleep mechanic, which frankly as it is, is way too strong.

[Dusk209]

Freeze won't be coming back because there isn't really a reason for it to exist. Sleep is basically the same thing but much less annoying. Freeze only happens due to extremely lame hax.

Also, I might consider changing the way sleep works some more, we'll see.

EDIT: Yeah, I should probably make Blizzard/Ice Beam have a flinch chance.

Originally Posted by Fat tehy

if we are bringing back freeze at all

Not happening

[tehy]

Yeah, the other day i got really pissed off at freeze after my frozen heatran got hit with a fire blast, activating flash fire... and he was still frozen. Was there not enough heat already?

On topic, if we are bringing back freeze at all, why not make fire-types immune? That makes so much sense, flavor-wise, and at least provides some form of a viable alternative to "hope i don't freeze please".

[MrCookie]

huh, well, freeze is just annoying in general

[ElectivireRocks]

Originally Posted by Fat Dusk209

Freeze won't be coming back because there isn't really a reason for it to exist.

I beg to differ.
You don't get to choose what "should" exist and what shouldn't.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Originally Posted by Fat ElectivireRocks

I beg to differ.
You don't get to choose what "should" exist and what shouldn't.

The issue at hand here is that Freeze has always been a very annoying and absolutely devastating things that happens 10% of the time. Nobody likes it and it causes s much rage its ridiculous. Freeze is ridiculous and dumb and I agree that it should not exist.

As a side note, you do realize this entire project is him deciding what he wants, correct?

[Dusk209]

Originally Posted by Fat ElectivireRocks

I beg to differ.
You don't get to choose what "should" exist and what shouldn't.

Well, I'd like to see you tell me why it's a good gameplay mechanic. It's not like I'm the only one who hates freeze, you know.

Originally Posted by Fat Swamp-Rocket

As a side note, you do realize this entire project is him deciding what he wants, correct?

Despite me being the project's namesake, I take the opinions of the players* very seriously. I'm only so stubborn about the freeze issue because nobody has good arguments about bring it back, and there are so many reasons why it should go.

*keyword "players" - people who actually played and got a feel for the metagame.

[Arizona]

Bhahaha, good joke ElectivireRocks. I honestly found that hilarious.

Anyway I support the absence of freeze 100%, although I eagerly await the time when Ice Beam works with Sheer Force again. Not once have I missed random freeze or crits. On that note, I expect you've already considered this Dusk, but what are the chances damage rolls get removed, with the random 1-0.85 factor in the damage formula replaced by a constant 0.925 factor? IMO damage rolls have the same negative effect as random crits. A few multi-hit moves are alright, especially as they often come with Skill Link, but for every move in the game bar Stoss, etc., to have variable damage seems like a noncompetitive element.

[Dusk209]

I'm not 100% sure about removing min/max damage rolls, but if enough people want it I'll do it.

[MrCookie]

that would be nice. but shouldn't it be one?would make it easy to calc

[Arizona]

Originally Posted by Fat MrCookie

that would be nice. but shouldn't it be one?would make it easy to calc

It would be a simpler calc, but it would also mean that all attacks would get max damage rather than median damage, increasing the power of offensive pokemon. Calcs are usually done by apps or what have you anyway, so simplicity of the formula is unimportant from a human perspective.

[tehy]

Removing min/max rolls would be theoreticallyy nice, but they're not THAT big of a deal. Sure, a min/max roll is much more likely to screw you when it comes into play, but a crit comes into play every single match. It'd be nice, but i'm on the fence about that one.

Also, if you're going to, just stick it in the middle.

Edit;You're so stubborn about the freeze thing because it's a clusterfuck. Freeze adds NOTHING, i repeat NOTHING to the game. Nobody would stop using ice beam/blizzard/ice punch/ice fang if they didn't inflict freeze. Not only is there no way to switch in something that can't be frozen (Only lum berry/natural cure;poison heal users hit SE), but it can last forever!All it does is take away ridiculous haxy BS that can ruin a game without any thought or strategy. People want it in because of either "purity of the game" (Tiers say hello) or because they like hax swinging a game their way. Anyone who complains can just not play duskmod.

[Level 51]

I really don't think you should remove min/max rolls entirely - the game would be really way more predictable. What you could do, in my opinion, is to lower the range from 75%-100% to, say, 83%-97% (just plonking arbitrary numbers here).

[Arizona]

Originally Posted by Fat Level 51

I really don't think you should remove min/max rolls entirely - the game would be really way more predictable. What you could do, in my opinion, is to lower the range from 75%-100% to, say, 83%-97% (just plonking arbitrary numbers here).

Level, the range is already 85-100% iirc. And the game being unpredictable is bad. The challenge should be predicting the opponent's mind, not a psuedorandom number generator.

In games where the damage roll doesn't come into effect, it might as well have been a constant factor of 0.925. In games where is does come into effect, it can only serve to taint the outcome. Unpredictable game mechanics never deliver the win to the player who played better more often than predictable games mechanics. Crits themselves are just an extreme form of damage rolls. Damage rolls may be less significant, but "less of a bad thing" is still a bad thing.

On another subject, I count no less than 36 new offensive boosting moves, 4 users of Moxie, and Clefable and Swoobat as Unaware users in this metagame. It sounds strange, but Haze may have become more important than Rapid Spin.

[zyrefredric]

Just a question: Right now only Gen1 and Gen5 Pokemon are usable. Eventually all Pokemon would be released right? If so, I'm hoping distribution of defensive/support abilities (Magic Bounce, Prankster, Hydration, Regenerator, Poison Heal, Thick Fat, etc) and defensive stat boosts be more common, to give stall more of a presence. Diversity in the meta is very desirable.

Also, I've noticed that some of the moves got changed to make them more competitive. Can we suggest some changes as well? I have a very simple idea to make move selection more diverse than what it currently is now.

[Champion Steve]

Although I get the need to destroy all of the evil hax, damage rolls seem to me to be just the right amount of randomness. I mean, misses are much worse than a low damage roll. At least if you just miss the KO the mon is almost dead. But with something like Stone Edge you score the KO 80% of the time while the remaining fifth sees your turn completely wasted. Still, misses will remain part of the game until someone decides to popularise No-Guardmons or something.

What I'm trying to say is, variable damage forces strategies to be more robust and without it we would probably see some ridiculously specific EV spreads.

[Dusk209]

Originally Posted by Fat zyrefredric

Just a question: Right now only Gen1 and Gen5 Pokemon are usable. Eventually all Pokemon would be released right? If so, I'm hoping distribution of defensive/support abilities (Magic Bounce, Prankster, Hydration, Regenerator, Poison Heal, Thick Fat, etc) and defensive stat boosts be more common, to give stall more of a presence. Diversity in the meta is very desirable.

Also, I've noticed that some of the moves got changed to make them more competitive. Can we suggest some changes as well? I have a very simple idea to make move selection more diverse than what it currently is now.

Yes, I will eventually get to generations 2-4.
At the moment, I feel like stall has a presence in the metagame but nobody uses it because it's kind of boring. I've used successful stall teams, but I feel like the problem is that there aren't enough options for stall pokemon. I'll work on that.
Yes, you can suggest any changes you want for anything, really.

[TheOnyx]

Dark Void Umbreon wins at life btw. One thing i would like to be implemented is Volt Tackle getting more distribution, and an ability that converts all your moves to a certain type. (like Normalize). And an ability that takes away the recharge turn of Hyper Beam, Giga Impcat, etc.

[zyrefredric]

Originally Posted by Fat Dusk209

Yes, you can suggest any changes you want for anything, really.

So yeah, these are the changes I'm suggestin:

• All moves with low base power (less or equal to 60 BP) gets buffed. Most moves of 60 BP less gets 60 BP (except for priority moves, always-crit moves, stored power and pursuit). Multihit moves (2-5 hits) all get 25 BP. Dualhit moves all get 50 BP. With this, Technician becomes more viable than what it currently is, specially if it's given away to more Pokemon.
• All probability for secondary effects are raised 20%. All stat drops caused on the opponent are increased by one stage, as long as it doesn't have more than 50% chance occurrence. All stat boosts caused on the user are increased by one stage, as long as it doesn't have more than 50% chance occurrence. This makes stat boosting becomes more diverse, and stat drops more present. Serene Grace, Sheer Force and even Shield Dust get a boost, and I hope it gets wide distribution.
• Also, moves with variable damage are adjusted to be of more competitive value.

...

---

• Absorb - 60 BP - User recovers half of the HP inflicted on opponent.
• Acid - 60 BP - May lower opponent's Special Defense two stages. 30% chance
• Acid Spray - 60 BP - Sharply lowers opponent's Special Defense two stages.
• Acrobatics - 60 BP - Stronger when the user does not have a held item.
• Air Cutter - 60 BP - High critical hit ratio.
• AncientPower - 60 BP - May raise all user's stats at once. 30% chance
• Arm Thrust - 25 BP - Hits 2-5 times in one turn.
• Assurance - 60 BP - Power doubles if opponent already took damage in the same turn.
• Astonish - 60 BP - May cause flinching. 50 chance
• Barrage - 25 BP - Hits 2-5 times in one turn.
• Beat Up - Each Pokemon in your party attacks. Base Power = (Base Attack stat of user)/4 + 5
• Bind - 60 BP - Traps opponent for 4-5 turns, damaging them for 1/8 of the target's maximum health at the end of each of those turns.
• Bite - 60 BP - May cause flinching. 50% chance
• Bubble - 60 BP - May lower opponent's Speed two stages. 30% chance
• Charge Beam - 60 BP - May raise user's Special Attack. 90% chance
• Chatter - 60 BP - May confuse opponent. 61% chance
• Clamp - 60 BP - Traps opponent for 4-5 turns, damaging them for 1/8 of the target's maximum health at the end of each of those turns.
• Clear Smog - 60 BP - Removes all of the target's stat changes.
• Comet Punch - 25 BP - Hits 2-5 times in one turn.
• Confusion - 60 BP - May confuse opponent. 30% chance
• Constrict - 60 BP - May lower opponent's Speed by two stages. 30% chance
• Crush Grip - More powerful when opponent has higher HP. Base Power = 60 + floor(100 * Foe's Current HP / Foe's Max HP).
• Cut - 60 BP -
• Double Hit - 50 BP - Hits twice in one turn.
• Double Kick - 50 BP - Hits twice in one turn.
• DoubleSlap - 25 BP - Hits 2-5 times in one turn.
• Dragon Rage - Inflicts damage equal to user's level.
• DragonBreath - 60 BP - May paralyze opponent. 50% chance
• Dual Chop - 50 BP - Hits twice in one turn.
• Echoed Voice - 60 BP - Power increases each turn if multiple Pokemon in the team also use it.
• Electro Ball - The faster the user, the stronger the attack. 75BP - 100BP - 125BP - 150BP
• Electroweb - 60 BP - Lowers opponent's Speed. 100% chance
• Ember - 60 BP - May burn opponent. 30 chance
• False Swipe - 60 BP - Always leaves opponent with at least 1 HP.
• Feint - 60 BP - Only hits if opponent uses Protect or Detect in the same turn.
• Fire Pledge - 60 BP - Creates a field effect that lasts four turns. All non-Fire-type opponents take 1/8 of their max HP as damage at the end of each turn.
• Fire Spin - 60 BP - Traps opponent for 4-5 turns, damaging them for 1/8 of the target's maximum health at the end of each of those turns.
• Flail - - - The lower the user's HP, the higher the power. 50BP - 80BP - 110BP - 140BP - 170BP - 200BP
• Flame Charge - 60 BP - Raises user's Speed.
• Flame Wheel - 60 BP - May burn opponent. 30% chance
• Fling - Power depends on held item. Minimum base power is 60 BP.
• Force Palm - 60 BP - May paralyze opponent. 50% chance
• Fury Attack - 25 BP - Hits 2-5 times in one turn.
• Fury Cutter - 40 BP - Power doubles with each consecutive hit, to a maximum Base Power of 160 (reached after three turns).
• Fury Swipes - 25 BP - Hits 2-5 times in one turn.
• Grass Knot - The heavier the opponent, the stronger the attack. 50BP - 70BP - 90BP - 110BP - 130BP - 150BP
• Grass Pledge - 60 BP - Creates a field effect that lasts four turns. The Speed of all opponents is reduced by 1/2.
• Gust - 60 BP - Hits Pokemon using Fly/Bounce with double power.
• Gyro Ball - The slower the opponent, the stronger the attack. Base Power = (Target's current Speed / User's current Speed) * 30
• Heart Stamp - 60 BP - May cause flinching. 50% chance
• Heat Crash - - - The heavier the user, the stronger the attack. 50BP - 75BP - 100BP - 125BP - 150BP
• Heavy Slam - - - The heavier the user, the stronger the attack. 50BP - 75BP - 100BP - 125BP - 150BP
• Hex - 60 BP - Inflicts double damage if the target has a status condition.
• Ice Ball - 50 BP - Doubles in power each turn for 5 turns.
• Icy Wind - 60 BP - Lowers opponent's Speed. 100% chance
• Incinerate - 60 BP - Destroys the target's held berry.
• Karate Chop - 60 BP - High critical hit ratio.
• Knock Off - 60 BP - Opponent cannot use its hold item for the duration of the battle.
• Leech Life - 60 BP - User recovers half of the damage inflicted on the opponent.
• Lick - 60 BP - May paralyze opponent. 50% chance
• Low Kick - The heavier the opponent, the stronger the attack. 50BP - 75BP - 100BP - 125BP - 150BP
• Magnitude - Hits with random power. 25BP - 50BP - 70BP - 90BP - 110BP - 130BP - 150BP
• Mega Drain - 60 BP - User recovers half the damage inflicted onto the opponent.
• Metal Claw - 60 BP - May raise user's Attack by two stages. 30% chance
• Mud Shot - 60 BP - Lowers opponent's Speed. 100% chance
• Mud-Slap - 60 BP - Lowers opponent's Accuracy. 100% chance
• Natural Gift - - - Power and type depend on the user's held berry.
• Needle Arm - 60 BP - May cause flinching. 50% chance
• Ominous Wind - 60 BP - May raise all user's stats at once.30% chance
• Pay Day - 60 BP - A small amount of money is gained after the battle resolves.
• Payback - 60 BP - Power doubles if the user was attacked first.
• Peck - 60 BP -
• Pin Missile - 25 BP - Hits 2-5 times in one turn.
• Poison Fang - 60 BP - May badly poison opponent. 50% chance
• Poison Sting - 60 BP - May poison the opponent. 50% chance
• Poison Tail - 60 BP - High critical hit ratio. May poison opponent. 30% chance
• Pound - 60 BP -
• Powder Snow - 60 BP - May (freeze) flinch (?) opponent. 30% chance
• Present - Either deals damage or heals the target. The move has a 40% chance to be a 60 Base Power attack, a 30% chance to be an 120 Base Power attack, a 20% chance to be a 180 Base Power attack, and a 10% chance to heal the target by 80HP. Although a physical move, this move does not make contact with the opponent. This attack will consume a Normal Gem even if the opponent is healed.
• Psywave - Inflicts damage 70-125% of user's level.
• Rage - 60 BP - Raises user's Attack when hit.
• Rapid Spin - 60 BP - Removes effects of trap moves and entry hazards.
• Razor Leaf - 60 BP - High critical hit ratio.
• Reversal - - - The lower the user's HP, the higher the power. 50BP - 80BP - 110BP - 140BP - 170BP - 200BP
• Rock Smash - 60 BP - May lower opponent's Defense. 70% chance
• Rock Throw - 60 BP -
• Rock Tomb - 60 BP - Lowers opponent's Speed. 100% chance
• Rolling Kick - 60 BP - May cause flinching. 50% chance
• Rollout - 50 BP - Doubles in power each turn for 5 turns.
• Sand Tomb - 60 BP - Traps opponent for 4-5 turns, damaging them for 1/8 of the target's maximum health at the end of each of those turns.
• Scratch - 60 BP -
• Silver Wind - 60 BP - May raise all stats of user at once. 30% chance
• Smack Down - 60 BP - Makes Flying-type Pokemon vulnerable to Ground moves.
• Smog - 60 BP - May poison opponent. 60% chance
• Snarl - 60 BP - Lowers opponent's Special Attack. 100% chance
• Snore - 60 BP - Can only be used if asleep. May cause flinching. 50% chance
• SonicBoom - Inflicts damage equal to user's level.
• Spike Cannon - 25 BP - Hits 2-5 times in one turn.
• Struggle - 60 BP - Only usable when all PP are gone. Hurts the user.
• Struggle Bug - 60 BP - Lowers opponent's Special Attack. 100% chance
• Tackle - 60 BP -
• Thief - 60 BP - Also steals opponent's held item.
• ThunderShock - 60 BP - May paralyze opponent. 30% chance
• Triple Kick - Hits thrice in one turn at increasing power. 20BP + 30BP + 40BP
• Trump Card - - - The lower the PP, the higher the power. 80BP + 110BP + 140BP + 170BP + 200BP
• Twineedle - 60 BP - Hits twice in one turn. May poison opponent. 40% chance
• Twister - 60 BP - Hits Pokemon using Fly/Bounce with double power. May cause flinching. 40% chance
• ViceGrip - 60 BP -
• Vine Whip - 60 BP -
• Water Gun - 60 BP -
• Water Pledge - 60 BP - Creates a field effect that lasts four turns. This Pokemon and its allies have twice the chances of side-effects occurring, but this effect does not stack with Serene Grace.
• Water Pulse - 60 BP - May confuse opponent. 40% chance
• Weather Ball - 60 BP - Move's power and type changes with the weather.
• Whirlpool - 60 BP - Traps opponent for 4-5 turns, damaging them for 1/8 of the target's maximum health at the end of each of those turns.
• Wrap - 60 BP - Traps opponent for 4-5 turns, damaging them for 1/8 of the target's maximum health at the end of each of those turns.
• Wring Out - The higher the opponent's HP, the higher the damage. Base Power = 60 + floor(90 * Foe's Current HP / Foe's Max HP).

Some of those may conflict with changes you have already changed, so you may disregard those. ^^ If it's not a good idea, in the VERY LEAST I'd love these changes to be accepted. I love field effects, and I think making the pledges have effects without requiring it to mix makes them fairly usable in Singles.

• Fire Pledge - 60 BP - Creates a field effect that lasts four turns. All non-Fire-type opponents take 1/8 of their max HP as damage at the end of each turn.
• Grass Pledge - 60 BP - Creates a field effect that lasts four turns. The Speed of all opponents is reduced by 1/2.
• Water Pledge - 60 BP - Creates a field effect that lasts four turns. This Pokemon and its allies have twice the chances of side-effects occurring, but this effect does not stack with Serene Grace.

Talking about field effects, Trick Room is good as it is. But can Tailwind, Gravity, Magic Room and Wonder Room be improved? I'd like to see more of them. Maybe making Tailwind 5 turns like the others, and have an item that boosts them for an additional 3 turns (like the weather rocks). I think Magic Room's and Wonder Room's are not that great as IS, and needs to be seriously reworked for them to be competitive. Something like:

Magic Room - Psychic - 30 PP - The types the Pokemon are resistant and weak to are switched. The types it is neutral and immune to remain the same. This effect lasts for five turns. Using Magic Room while the effects are already active will cause the effects to cease.

Let's say Fire Punch-less Golurk (Ghost/Ground) uses Magic Room as Ferrothorn (Steel/Grass) comes in, hoping to Power Whip for the KO. With Magic Room in play, Golurk now resists Water, Grass, Ice, Ghost and Dark, but weak to Poison(4x), Bug and Rock. Ferrothorn, on the other hand, now resists Fire(4x) and Fighting, but weak to Normal, Water, Electric, Grass(4x), Psychic, Rock, Ghost, Ground, Dragon, Dark and Steel. Easy win for Golurk there.

This move really messes up with typing. Take a look at another example below:

Magnezone (Steel/Flying)
immune: Poison
4x resist: Ground
2x resist: Fire, Fighting
neutral: Water
2x weak: Normal, Electric, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark
4x weak: Flying, Steel

[Arizona]

Wow Dusk, you opened the floodgates a bit. People have been chomping at the bit making suggestions in chat (retaining the Odd Incense glitch, anyone) and I've gotta say something about it.

Sorry zyre, and I don't mean to single you out, but I can't support any of this. It just seems like so much "hmm, this might be cool. Why don't we put the current, evolving metagame on hold and implement whatever random idea, just to see what happens." If other metagames can be ban happy, I fear this one becoming experiment happy.

Changing stats, moves, movepools, typing, and the type chart itself have never seen the light of day in Standard OU* for good reason; they are extremely powerful metagame manipulation tools that should not be used lightly. They are simultaneously DuskMod's greatest strength and IMO the greatest threat to its long term health if used imprudently or impatiently. If we try every new idea, without any concrete reason, before the metagame has come close to solidifying--seriously, this has existed for a month, with no more than 20 or so people--we would neglect DM's mission of "increasing competitiveness, raising the skill ceiling, and emphasizing balance." Let things like 6-moveslot, Balanced Hackmons, and Equal BST pursue their goals of wonky ideas, and let Duskmod pursue the goal of a better OU.

The majority of work done to improve standard OU is not banning, but playing, testing, making sets and teams, and discussing the strengths and limitations of pokemon as they are. So it should be here. Just because we have more powerful and precise tools than a banning does not mean we should wave them around like a magic wand at every opportunity.

We should follow a principle of minimal modification. The closer DuskMod can resemble standard OU, the better we have done IMO. Tweaking every single move would just create another schism cementing DM's "Other" status. More practically, each change has to be learned and re-internalized by newcomers. To avoid confusing or daunting them, the changelog should be no longer than necessary to reach DM's core goals.

Relatedly, I have come around to the position that the introduction of pokemon from other generations should proceed at a measured, even slow, pace. We are all excited to try new things, but we have a huge pile of new things that we have barely tried at all. At most we have used a handful of known good pokemon a few dozen times. There's roughly 150 fully evolved pokemon in DM atm. The metagame NOW is potentially thrice as broad as Standard OU. Far from rushing out 50/60 more pokemon, we should be taking more time with the current batch.

Insofar as changes should be made at the present time, they should be changes targeted towards a concrete problem in the metagame. DM is an experiment, meaning we need to observe, hypothesize, and test. It takes 20 people longer to do that than 2000, so we need to exercise patience to get it right. If the main reason you want a change is "I want to try this idea out" and not "DM needs this," the change is ill-advised. We should treat edits to this metagame with the same gravity we treat edits to others, i.e. bans.

*excluding OHKO and evasion moves being effectively stricken from movepools

[Dusk209]

Originally Posted by Fat Arizona

(awesome post)

This. All of this. At the moment, DM can be confusing for people to understand. There are so many changes, and some of them don't have any reason to exist, such as me turning Gengar into a pure ghost type (I'm changing that back soon.) In the coming updates, I'll be working on shrinking the changelist to mainly include changes that matter rather than nitpicks.