Latias Discussion: The Underrated Eon

[dragonuser]

Latias is a fantastic Pokemon in this metagame. It is one of the few offensive checks to Scarf Keldeo and is a great "sponge" in general. It covers a ton of threats in this metagame, and I find myself hard pressed to not use it on most of my teams. Its general usefulness vs so many playstyles cannot be emphasized enough, and I would argue that its LO tank set is its best set atm. It serves as a bulky pivot that can take hits from a lot of the metagame, but still hits pretty hard. I find it difficult to successfully run CM sets in this metagame, and while choiced sets have some surprise factor, thats pretty much all they have going for them barring maybe Healing Wish. If Latias didn't get Healing Wish there would be almost no reason to run it over Latios on a choiced set.

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

Originally Posted by Fat dragonuser

Latias is a fantastic Pokemon in this metagame. It is one of the few offensive checks to Scarf Keldeo and is a great "sponge" in general. It covers a ton of threats in this metagame, and I find myself hard pressed to not use it on most of my teams. Its general usefulness vs so many playstyles cannot be emphasized enough, and I would argue that its LO tank set is its best set atm. It serves as a bulky pivot that can take hits from a lot of the metagame, but still hits pretty hard. I find it difficult to successfully run CM sets in this metagame, and while choiced sets have some surprise factor, thats pretty much all they have going for them barring maybe Healing Wish. If Latias didn't get Healing Wish there would be almost no reason to run it over Latios on a choiced set.

As great as Latias is as a pivot, determining what set to use on a team is a real challenge. Let's take a standard Sand team that uses a Latias (and where she finds a lot of usage). You have Specs, CM, and Life Orb. CM is great for tanking hits because it has Max HP investment, but it constantly finds itself not doing any damage to the opponent what so ever. You just fire off a bunch of weak Dragon Pulse's because if you send in Genesect comes in and halts your effort to boost. Sub alleviates forcing you out to an extent, but you still find yourself only firing off weak Dragon Pulses. Meanwhile, Specs and Life Orb let's Latias actually cause some damage during the match. But I have found that unless you use Max HP your ability to check threats is severly compromised. The extra EV's of HP you gain using the Life Orb set as opposed to Specs is wasted to Life Orb's recoil (and Sand really compounds this issue).

[flea]

Well, you can't play the CM set like the Specs/LO set. Genesect is a problem, but you probably shouldn't be bringing in a CM Latias and "firing off weak dragon pulses" while genesect is still alive and kicking on the opponent's team. That is a job for the Specs set, because the Meteors and Pulses aren't as weak to start out. But if you can check genesect and get up some hazards, it quickly becomes something you can easily take out from behind a sub. Latias sets up all over Genesect that is choice-locked into something that isn't U-Turn or Bug Buzz. SubCM can't be played like the life orb or specs set, and that's why I think it needs sub. It aims to take hits while waiting for the proper opportunity to set up, and half the time that sub is instrumental in creating that opportunity. It's also not nearly as hard to take out Genesect when you know that Latias will lure it in like a hog to the slaughter

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

Originally Posted by Fat flea

Well, you can't play the CM set like the Specs/LO set. Genesect is a problem, but you probably shouldn't be bringing in a CM Latias and "firing off weak dragon pulses" while genesect is still alive and kicking on the opponent's team. That is a job for the Specs set, because the Meteors and Pulses aren't as weak to start out. But if you can check genesect and get up some hazards, it quickly becomes something you can easily take out from behind a sub. Latias sets up all over Genesect that is choice-locked into something that isn't U-Turn or Bug Buzz. SubCM can't be played like the life orb or specs set, and that's why I think it needs sub. It aims to take hits while waiting for the proper opportunity to set up, and half the time that sub is instrumental in creating that opportunity. It's also not nearly as hard to take out Genesect when you know that Latias will lure it in like a hog to the slaughter

Well no duh that it isn't Latias' time to sweep with Genesect still kicking and no I am not "playing Latias wrong", I'm not sending Latias out into the field like some Choice Band/Specs user to wreck with uninvested Dragon Pulses... This is what I am referring to: you ussually (read: always) incorporate Latias onto a team in order to check/counter several important sweepers in the metagame that would be problematic for your team (especially sand teams): Keldeo, techniloom, Thunderus-T, and most importantly Rock Polish Landorus. Ok now your in a match and you have to check your opponents Landorus/Thundy with Latias. "Go Latias" and he Hp ice's: here is what happens:

- Sub CM Latias: you comfortably check Landorus since you invested in bulk, you can Recover up or send out a weak Dragon Pulse against the opponent. Overall, you haven't really done much to the opponent.

-Life Orb Tank: you check Landorus, but with the lack of HP investment you are an unsure if can comfortably check it again. This compounded by Life Orb damage and (likely) sand damage. However you have access to Life Orb Draco Meteor to put damage on the opponent. If can you have the opportunity to roost. Result: check Landours/thundy but not very comfortably. However you can check him repeatedly if you play your cards right.

Specs: With even less HP investment (which is sort off set by the lack of life orb recoil). You can check him comfortably, but not repeatedly since you lack roost. However, this Latias has the potential to cause the largest amount of damage.

Basically you have to decide between having the ability to comfortably repeatedly check the opponents with Max HP investment with CM or having the ability to cause damage to your opponent with extra attack (but less bulk). Sure you can say "It aims to take hits while waiting for the proper opportunity to set up" but then CM Latias becomes the foil of your opponent to gain momentum and switches to get there next offensive piece in, especially since it is weak to u-turn. With faster U-turn's *cough*genesect*cough* the momentum you could maintain with a double switch can not be maintained (even without u-turn, to double switch to prevent losing momentum constantly is a high demand/really difficult so do).

[RaikouLover]

CM Latias is the most reliable sweeper ever, bar none.

Burn Scizor / Genesect / Tyranitar with the W-o-W Mew or Jellicent and your golden. Good game.

[IstheCakeReallyaLie]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

CM Latias is the most reliable sweeper ever, bar none.

Burn Scizor / Genesect / Tyranitar with the W-o-W Mew or Jellicent and your golden. Good game.

I use PranksterEye. It can't take a hit, but it annoys the opponent a ton, causing them to make some risky plays. Of course, +1 Recover and Taunt are a plus as well.

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat flea

Well, you can't play the CM set like the Specs/LO set. Genesect is a problem, but you probably shouldn't be bringing in a CM Latias and "firing off weak dragon pulses" while genesect is still alive and kicking on the opponent's team. That is a job for the Specs set, because the Meteors and Pulses aren't as weak to start out. But if you can check genesect and get up some hazards, it quickly becomes something you can easily take out from behind a sub. Latias sets up all over Genesect that is choice-locked into something that isn't U-Turn or Bug Buzz. SubCM can't be played like the life orb or specs set, and that's why I think it needs sub. It aims to take hits while waiting for the proper opportunity to set up, and half the time that sub is instrumental in creating that opportunity. It's also not nearly as hard to take out Genesect when you know that Latias will lure it in like a hog to the slaughter

Very well said Flea. You have successfully managed to turn what I've been trying to get across with this OP, into a very simple explanation.

It aims to take hits while waiting for the proper opportunity to set up

Bingo. You see, this meta game is so infested with extremely hyper offensive teams with no defensive core that it almost makes me sick. Hyper offense is one thing, however even hyper offense has at least ONE defensive backbone or pivot. When most OU players (MOST not ALL) build up a fresh team, they always seem to look at a Pokemon's offensive stats before even bother looking at it's defensive stats. This is why LO Deoxys-D is used on most very hyper offensive teams due to his very large bulk and the ability to fight back with decent offensive stats and even a decent speed tier. Poor Pokemon like CM Latias, Jellicent, and even Ferrothorn are over looked as team members due to their lackluster speed (other then Latias) or their offensive stats are slightly lacking. However, one must look how devastating these defensively offensive pivots can be when used correctly at the RIGHT time. Jellicent may fire off weak attacks, however he completely counters Scarfed Terrakion and Latios, and can either status them or take them out with their respectable weakness. Ferrothorn walls a lot of things, however many overlook his very decent 94 base Attack stat, and prefer to just use 4 supporting moves. I however, make it a staple to use either Power Whip and or Gyro Ball with him, dealing very nice damage on top of walling the crap out of everything. Getting to the main point, CM Latias is insanely terrible at the beginning of the match. Genesect, Tyranitar, and Scizor destroy her, while Forretress and Ferrothorn wall her for days. However, once these are gone she can come in and set up just fine with her nice bulk and access to Recover, and as RaikouLover said;

Burn Scizor / Genesect / Tyranitar with the W-o-W Mew or Jellicent and your golden. Good game.

[flea]

. Ok now your in a match and you have to check your opponents Landorus/Thundy with Latias. "Go Latias" and he Hp ice's: here is what happens:

- Sub CM Latias: you comfortably check Landorus since you invested in bulk, you can Recover up or send out a weak Dragon Pulse against the opponent. Overall, you haven't really done much to the opponent.

This could very well happen if your opponent is predicting well, but you have still checked the Landorus/Thundurus. But if you can avoid switching in on the HP ice, that's where things get really interesting-
-You CM up and take 27-32% from the HP Ice
-Next turn you can either sub up or take measly damage from the next HP Ice after a CM, putting you either at +2 and completely walling the Landorus or at +1 and with a sub, which leaves you with pretty good potential to wreck something. Genesect will probably just U-Turn to break the sub, which lets you get to +2 or just rinse and repeat as it has to switch into hazards again to break your new sub.
You are in a great position to give your opponent a major prediction/risk vs. reward headache here. If you have waited until the genesect is at low health, you may very well have won the game; at this point if genesect goes down your opponent will need something that is (A) faster (B) carries something that can break the sub and (C) can survive several dragon pulses to stop your attempted sweep.

I've been playing with Latias a ton lately and it has been the MVP in pretty much every game that I play it right. Do people not realize that if you have hazards up you can just sub up again as genesect breaks your sub with U-Turn and you will win in the long run (especially if you catch it on the switch with a +2 Pulse)?

I understand that you are an experienced, respected player, and I do not want to disrespect you, but I think you are underestimating Latias a bit here if you truly think that is the best SubCM Latias can do against a Landorus.

[FaceFaceFace]

Originally Posted by Fat dragonuser

Latias is a fantastic Pokemon in this metagame. It is one of the few offensive checks to Scarf Keldeo and is a great "sponge" in general. It covers a ton of threats in this metagame, and I find myself hard pressed to not use it on most of my teams. Its general usefulness vs so many playstyles cannot be emphasized enough, and I would argue that its LO tank set is its best set atm. It serves as a bulky pivot that can take hits from a lot of the metagame, but still hits pretty hard.

Totally agree. Even when I try to move away from Latias, I always come back to her. The LO set checks so many things, and fills in so many gaps that it's almost impossible to pass up. She's like a 110 speed Hydreigon with a better typing (or worse depending on how you see it), and we all know how amazing Hydreigon's coverage is.
Latias is probably the best weather check out there right now. I might even go out on a limb and say she's probably the best dragon(!) right now.

[HardCore]

Latias is one of the 4th gen Pokemon that I think currently have a lot of potential especially if Genesect is banned. Since I've come back to the BW2 meta the first question I asked was what Pokemon have been good used against me or for me in surprising ways. Pokemon like Latias, Lucario, Gyarados, and Scizor came to my head, which are all some of the best Pokemon from 4th gen. I've seen many creative Latias sets and it's typing is perfect for combating rain teams, which there are a surfeit of. It's always appealed to me because of it's bulkiness, set up potential, and utility usage (roar, sub sets, trick, wish). When you use a set that is synergistic to your team then I believe it can be a great asset. It's speed and base defenses are reliable. Once partnered with it's stab it's a pain to get rid of with the decrease I've seen in sand teams.

[Gary2346]

Hey guys! I wouldn't normally revive a thread that's been this dead for a while, but a lot of changes have happened since then, the biggest being Genesect and Tornadus-T being banned. How does this effect her viability? Are her other sets more viable now that her #1 check has left the building? Discuss away!

[Hugin]

Her best benefit right now is that Keldeo is still around and is getting the usage it deserves. She walls it completely, so her usage will only go up.

[Dragoon124]

Another major change is that the subcm now deals with Most of rain offense's most common threats. Keldeo, Rotom-W, ferro ( with subcm ), politioed, thunderous-t, insert a huge amount of Pokemon who abuse rain boosted water type moves, etc. And before you say that Politoed has Perish Song you'll have to realize, that is the only reason why any Politoed in it's right mind would switch into Latias, leaving you itch 1) a dead Politoed, 2) a very low on health Politoed, 3) the weather in my control because I expect the obvious PS and get what is basically the only free switch in any WS other than Obamasnow gets from poli, or 3) a Pokemon like hydreigon or CB haxorus ours/kyurem-b, or any other Pokemon who you meant to keep away with offensive pressure do to the fact that they make your team cry.

[Jelandee]

I've been using Latias to a great success, apparently, since Tornadus-T and Genesect have been banned. In fact, it's been the MVP on my team for some time now. I usually prefer the Sub CM set, as after it's counters are gone (preferably excessive U-turners and and specially bulky pokes like Jirachi and Tyranitar), Latias is pretty much free to wreck havoc after a couple Calm Minds. ^.^

[yoshinator879]

I have been using this awesome Latias-Jirachi core wherein I use a LO Recover 3-attacks Latias with Draco, psyshock and HP fire/surf and a normal SPDRachi. They cover most of eachother's weakness' and are just generally great together.
The reason I think that Latias specifically is so great is that it basically wrecks both sun and rain. It resists fire, grass and water, and just generally has a fun time against weather. The main problem is sand. Tyranitar obviously beats it, as does Ferro if you run surf, and Heatran if you run HP Fire.
Overall, I freaking love Latias.

[Kidogo]

I used a latias / skarmory core in DW and they work fantastically together, giving a pseudo skarmbliss with the physical/special wall, and their synergy is incredible together (iirc, they resist every type in the game except for ice and rock). The only potential issue is pursuit users, but some smart double-switching can avoid this.