(Gen 1) Quality vs Quantity - RBY speculation

Captain Evil · Nov 6th, 2012, 2:22:44 PM

I was just wondering how a team consisting of one Mew and one Mewtwo (any set) would fare against a full party of six OU/UU Pokémon chosen specifically for the task.

Which Pokémon would be most likely to make up the team, and would the two Ubers be dominant enough to prevail, even against 3-to-1 odds?

Crystal_ · Nov 6th, 2012, 2:26:35 PM

Multiple exploders/sleepers/physical attackers.

A team of Exeggutor/Snorlax/Persian alone would probably still win more often than not anyway. Add Tauros/Gengar/Jynx to the mix maybe.

Jorgen · Nov 6th, 2012, 3:03:54 PM

If you're not going to enforce species clause, just use 6 Electrodes. Boom Boom Boom.

Slobroking · Nov 6th, 2012, 4:28:03 PM

quantity

Captain Evil · Nov 6th, 2012, 4:39:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jorgen

If you're not going to enforce species clause, just use 6 Electrodes. Boom Boom Boom.

Even with species clause, Electrode seems surprisingly useful, being the only thing that outspeeds Mewtwo with certainity, and having access to the crippling Thunder Wave as well as Explosion.

Does Mew and Mewtwo stand any chance at all?

Crystal_ · Nov 6th, 2012, 5:22:59 PM

Against six Electrodes? Not really. Maybe with a couple or three 255'd Explosions, but otherwise not really... Even with species clause on, it'd take some insane luck to beat a well prepared team of six Pokemon.

Hipmonlee · Nov 7th, 2012, 5:10:34 AM

If you took sleep and explosion out of the equation, how would you deal with it? (also include species clause)

I am thinking Amnesia Lax + light screen Chansey, though I guess if they anticipated that they would run psychic. I guess Psychic + Tbolt would probably be the best choice of Mewtwo. That would be a real bitch..

And stopping Mew is pretty fucking hard. I think Swords dance, Blizzard, Softboild, Body Slam would be what I would start with.

So how would I beat this..

Starmie is pretty good against Mew, and can at least Paralyse Mewtwo provided it doesnt get CHed. You could give it reflect to really annoy Mew..

Persian is a good choice too, screech in general seems like a useful move. Neither pokemon is really capable of switching into Rhydon when paralysed.

Cloyster clamping could be a good option.

Ok, so the key clearly is to par both.

So to achieve this, I lead with Magneton. Thunderwave, then screech. When it dies, I want to bodyslam. But it has to be something that will do reasonable damage to whatever comes in. I am thinking Snorlax. Its only about 25%, but then they either have to stay in and likely get paralysed long before Snorlax dies, or switch back to the paralysed pokemon, and take 25%. If they have reflect on one of those pokes it will be real troubles for me. Persian will be a useful addition. Though its probably only going to do 33% and die.

Maybe countering reflect is better done with sacrificial screech. Electrode is a second option for that. I cant be bothered checking whether stat drops remove reflect entirely or not. It would be barrier on Mewtwo anyway..

I think Magneton, Electrode, Snorlax, Persian, Cloyster, and a Leer Tauros perhaps with stomp.

In terms of countering Mew a surprise contender would be Ditto though.. No use at all against Mewtwo though..

Omanyte · Nov 8th, 2012, 6:44:37 PM

Surely Chansey is a given? With Ice Beam it's basically a guaranteed freeze (unless were discounting freezing too?).
Slowbro would also be pretty badass if they were lacking Thunderbolt, and if they had Thunderbolt, then they're not going to be covering off other threats.
Amnesia Lax of some variety would be in there too.

Hipmonlee · Nov 8th, 2012, 7:06:57 PM

Not really, it cant do anything to Mew. Actually I guess reflect/lightscreen/softboiled/icebeam could be useful. It would probably survive long enough to have a decent enough shot at freezing Mew, and considering that is half of their team that is pretty sweet. Though if it doesnt work out, then Mew will be fully set up.. Probably enough to kill 2 more pokes at least..

ElectivireRocks · Nov 11th, 2012, 11:28:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Omanyte

Surely Chansey is a given? With Ice Beam it's basically a guaranteed freeze (unless were discounting freezing too?).

After using all 16 Ice Beam's PP, assuming they all hit a non-ice type pokemon, you have about 81 % chance to freeze an opponent's pokemon at least once.
So while the chance is high if you hit Mewtwo 16 times, it's not exactly "guaranteed".

Jorgen · Nov 11th, 2012, 12:01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ElectivireRocks

After using all 16 Ice Beam's PP, assuming they all hit a non-ice type pokemon, you have about 81 % chance to freeze an opponent's pokemon at least once.
So while the chance is high if you hit Mewtwo 16 times, it's not exactly "guaranteed".

qft. I've burned through 16 IBs and failed to get the freeze in the Chansey ditto before.

However, the bigger issue is that Chansey falls flat on its face against Mew, as Hipmonlee said.

waterwizard · Nov 13th, 2012, 5:16:08 PM

A team of six pokemon can easily beat the pair of ubers. It can be done with three.

Longfellow · Nov 17th, 2012, 10:38:13 PM

Three? How so?

tehy · Nov 18th, 2012, 3:13:23 AM

I'm not really particularly into gen 1, and i know people rarely really use toxic, eschewing it for paralysis, sleep, or freeze, but wouldn't toxic be much more useful against a two-pokemon team, especially assuming we're not using sleep? Just toxic them both and spam tough neutral hits with physical attackers, with maybe chansey if mewtwo's really going off, and something that can take hits from mew and counter back, maybe like rhydon?

Crystal_ · Nov 18th, 2012, 5:44:31 AM

It'd be great against one pokemon only, but not two. Physical attackers would rather face them paralysed.

Golden Gyarados · Nov 24th, 2012, 10:06:50 PM

If you keep sleep in the equation, I came across a Parasect set specifically tailored to killing Mewtwo a long time ago - I don't remember who came up with it for credit, but I was skeptical so I tried it out, and it actually does work most of the time (the only failure point is the first turn, which I'll explain below). This would work if you get Mew out of the way and you're attacking Mewtwo one-on-one:

Parasect
Spore
Substitute
Swords Dance
Leech Life

You'll take a hit first, but unless it's a crit, you'll survive. Then, you Spore. Put up a Sub. The strategy from there is to Swords Dance up and Leech Life. You'll heal enough from Leech Life to keep Subbing up so you have the turn to put Mewtwo back to sleep after it wakes up.

The first time around, you'll be too damaged from that initial Blizzard to put up a Sub right away, so what you might end up doing is Swords Dance once or twice, Leech Life once or twice, and then just throwing pre-emptive Spores to predict the turn Mewtwo wakes up and you can put him right back to sleep while he's immobile. Then you repeat until you've healed enough to put up the Sub, then you can safely Swords Dance and Leech Life behind your Sub.

Of course, if Mewtwo had a chance to Amnesia before then, you're screwed on that first hit, so you've got to do this on the same turn Mewtwo comes in.

It's ridiculous, yes, and it's annoying as hell, and there are far, far more efficient ways to take these guys out (as detailed throughout this chain), but it's really, really funny to take Mewtwo down with a Parasect. Plus it's the only feasible way to actually take advantage of Psychic's weakness to Bug in RBY, so that makes it satisfying in a way, too.

Nov 6th, 2012, 2:22:44 PM	#1
Captain Evil Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 47	Quality vs Quantity - RBY speculation I was just wondering how a team consisting of one Mew and one Mewtwo (any set) would fare against a full party of six OU/UU Pokémon chosen specifically for the task. Which Pokémon would be most likely to make up the team, and would the two Ubers be dominant enough to prevail, even against 3-to-1 odds?

Nov 6th, 2012, 2:26:35 PM	#2
Crystal_ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 829 Spain	Multiple exploders/sleepers/physical attackers. A team of Exeggutor/Snorlax/Persian alone would probably still win more often than not anyway. Add Tauros/Gengar/Jynx to the mix maybe. __________________ Updated RBY analyses: ~~ Alakazam / Chansey / Dragonite / Exeggutor / Slowbro / Snorlax / Starmie / Tauros ~~ Articles: ~~ The RBY UU Metagame // Sleep and Leads in RBY ~~ Warstory: ~~ RBY Little Cup ~~ ****** RBY 251 ** The RBY Metagame with all GSC Pokemon allowed!

Nov 6th, 2012, 5:22:59 PM	#6
Crystal_ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 829 Spain	Against six Electrodes? Not really. Maybe with a couple or three 255'd Explosions, but otherwise not really... Even with species clause on, it'd take some insane luck to beat a well prepared team of six Pokemon. __________________ Updated RBY analyses: ~~ Alakazam / Chansey / Dragonite / Exeggutor / Slowbro / Snorlax / Starmie / Tauros ~~ Articles: ~~ The RBY UU Metagame // Sleep and Leads in RBY ~~ Warstory: ~~ RBY Little Cup ~~ ****** RBY 251 ** The RBY Metagame with all GSC Pokemon allowed!

Nov 7th, 2012, 5:10:34 AM	#7
Hipmonlee Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7,299	If you took sleep and explosion out of the equation, how would you deal with it? (also include species clause) I am thinking Amnesia Lax + light screen Chansey, though I guess if they anticipated that they would run psychic. I guess Psychic + Tbolt would probably be the best choice of Mewtwo. That would be a real bitch.. And stopping Mew is pretty fucking hard. I think Swords dance, Blizzard, Softboild, Body Slam would be what I would start with. So how would I beat this.. Starmie is pretty good against Mew, and can at least Paralyse Mewtwo provided it doesnt get CHed. You could give it reflect to really annoy Mew.. Persian is a good choice too, screech in general seems like a useful move. Neither pokemon is really capable of switching into Rhydon when paralysed. Cloyster clamping could be a good option. Ok, so the key clearly is to par both. So to achieve this, I lead with Magneton. Thunderwave, then screech. When it dies, I want to bodyslam. But it has to be something that will do reasonable damage to whatever comes in. I am thinking Snorlax. Its only about 25%, but then they either have to stay in and likely get paralysed long before Snorlax dies, or switch back to the paralysed pokemon, and take 25%. If they have reflect on one of those pokes it will be real troubles for me. Persian will be a useful addition. Though its probably only going to do 33% and die. Maybe countering reflect is better done with sacrificial screech. Electrode is a second option for that. I cant be bothered checking whether stat drops remove reflect entirely or not. It would be barrier on Mewtwo anyway.. I think Magneton, Electrode, Snorlax, Persian, Cloyster, and a Leer Tauros perhaps with stomp. In terms of countering Mew a surprise contender would be Ditto though.. No use at all against Mewtwo though.. __________________

Nov 8th, 2012, 7:06:57 PM	#9
Hipmonlee Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7,299	Not really, it cant do anything to Mew. Actually I guess reflect/lightscreen/softboiled/icebeam could be useful. It would probably survive long enough to have a decent enough shot at freezing Mew, and considering that is half of their team that is pretty sweet. Though if it doesnt work out, then Mew will be fully set up.. Probably enough to kill 2 more pokes at least.. __________________

Nov 6th, 2012, 3:03:54 PM	#3
Jorgen Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 712	If you're not going to enforce species clause, just use 6 Electrodes. Boom Boom Boom.

Nov 6th, 2012, 4:28:03 PM	#4
Slobroking Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,203	quantity

Nov 8th, 2012, 6:44:37 PM	#8
Omanyte Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 41	Surely Chansey is a given? With Ice Beam it's basically a guaranteed freeze (unless were discounting freezing too?). Slowbro would also be pretty badass if they were lacking Thunderbolt, and if they had Thunderbolt, then they're not going to be covering off other threats. Amnesia Lax of some variety would be in there too.

Nov 13th, 2012, 5:16:08 PM	#12
waterwizard Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 139 Alabama/Florida	A team of six pokemon can easily beat the pair of ubers. It can be done with three. __________________ No Wrappers!

Nov 17th, 2012, 10:38:13 PM	#13
Longfellow Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 156	Three? How so?

Nov 18th, 2012, 3:13:23 AM	#14
tehy Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,158	I'm not really particularly into gen 1, and i know people rarely really use toxic, eschewing it for paralysis, sleep, or freeze, but wouldn't toxic be much more useful against a two-pokemon team, especially assuming we're not using sleep? Just toxic them both and spam tough neutral hits with physical attackers, with maybe chansey if mewtwo's really going off, and something that can take hits from mew and counter back, maybe like rhydon?

Nov 18th, 2012, 5:44:31 AM	#15
Crystal_ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 829 Spain	It'd be great against one pokemon only, but not two. Physical attackers would rather face them paralysed. __________________ Updated RBY analyses: ~~ Alakazam / Chansey / Dragonite / Exeggutor / Slowbro / Snorlax / Starmie / Tauros ~~ Articles: ~~ The RBY UU Metagame // Sleep and Leads in RBY ~~ Warstory: ~~ RBY Little Cup ~~ ****** RBY 251 ** The RBY Metagame with all GSC Pokemon allowed!

Nov 24th, 2012, 10:06:50 PM	#16
Golden Gyarados Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 57	If you keep sleep in the equation, I came across a Parasect set specifically tailored to killing Mewtwo a long time ago - I don't remember who came up with it for credit, but I was skeptical so I tried it out, and it actually does work most of the time (the only failure point is the first turn, which I'll explain below). This would work if you get Mew out of the way and you're attacking Mewtwo one-on-one: Parasect Spore Substitute Swords Dance Leech Life You'll take a hit first, but unless it's a crit, you'll survive. Then, you Spore. Put up a Sub. The strategy from there is to Swords Dance up and Leech Life. You'll heal enough from Leech Life to keep Subbing up so you have the turn to put Mewtwo back to sleep after it wakes up. The first time around, you'll be too damaged from that initial Blizzard to put up a Sub right away, so what you might end up doing is Swords Dance once or twice, Leech Life once or twice, and then just throwing pre-emptive Spores to predict the turn Mewtwo wakes up and you can put him right back to sleep while he's immobile. Then you repeat until you've healed enough to put up the Sub, then you can safely Swords Dance and Leech Life behind your Sub. Of course, if Mewtwo had a chance to Amnesia before then, you're screwed on that first hit, so you've got to do this on the same turn Mewtwo comes in. It's ridiculous, yes, and it's annoying as hell, and there are far, far more efficient ways to take these guys out (as detailed throughout this chain), but it's really, really funny to take Mewtwo down with a Parasect. Plus it's the only feasible way to actually take advantage of Psychic's weakness to Bug in RBY, so that makes it satisfying in a way, too.