np: NU Stage 7 - Free Bird

[Zebraiken*]

speaking of the monkeys, i've been playing around with a bunch of stuff that i've never used before on the ladder and honestly think should be seeing more usage.

sub + 3 attacks simisage: this isn't especially spectacular, but now that it picked up overgrow this is more than good enough to justify using it on the ladder. it plays similarly to other fast grass-types (namely sceptile in RU) but our only other real proprietor of this set was serperior who just got dominated by amoonguss. simisage packs enough of a punch that it can actually 2hko amoonguss after sr which makes it actually worthwhile. still probably not as good as your plethora of other grass-types (ludicolo / exeggutor in particular are significantly better after a turn of setup imo) but it is still a neat addition that works much better than it has in the past.

kangaskhan: ok i've never particularly been a fan of kanga, but between carrying multiple forms of priority and hitting deliciously hard with adamant lo double-edge (or silk scarf if you are a pussy), kanga has really really grown on me as of late. it's a failsafe for just about everything, since you can do stuff like stall out rain turns with fake out and then KO afterwards with sucker punch. i've also seen a few other interesting sets like a subpunch + disable set which looked... interesting, to say the least. obviously it has its issues with dealing with bulkier teams, but you have teammates for that. kangaskhan is just a hugely helpful addition for dealing with all kinds of offensive teams.

piloswine: i talked about this in the last np: thread but good god piloswine is fantastic and it has probably become my favorite sr setter. literally no other sr setter plays so well against the majority of the metagame, and when you live stuff like charizard fire blast and set up sr or go untouched against popular stuff like rotom-a, haunter, and skuntank.. piloswine has such a combination of power, utility, and bulk that lately i cannot seem to build a team without it. :(

a few other brief mentions of sets i've been using; sd mawile was pretty neat, can set up on quite a lot of stuff and hits surprisingly hard with lo sheer force iron head. it struggles if it can't get that opportunity to set up but once it does, you're probably gonna roll. shell smash liechi carracosta - i talked about it in the nu underrated threats smog article, and it's still just as fucking good. you can literally 6-0 a mediocre team just by leading with it (as FLCL has proven...). fraxure is incredibly underrated and has a ton of sweeping potential if you can nab the right opportunity to set up. very, very little can actually stand up to a boosted fraxure and live to tell the tale. uhhhh the last thing i was using was... oh yea, regice. i don't know why i disliked regice for so long but every time i've used it i've been more and more impressed. the thing is incredibly specially bulky and tanks just about everything you'd ever need it to. those of you looking for a reliable answer to ludicolo outside of your own colo, this guy is your MAN.

what stuff have you guys been using? :o

[Brammi]

Specially Defensive Murkrow
SubLO Only Special Emboar (Has hard counters, but they are all the kind of targets that you can build to eliminate.)
4 Attacks Lum Absol (Really is bloody amazing)

[WhiteDMist]

Lately, I've bveen using a pretty decent team based around Sweet Jesus' Specially Defensive Gothorita along with a slew of powerful physical attackers. While it doesn't exactly take Gothitelle's place in the tier, it does have more overall bulk. Reflect is such a nice utility to wall several physical attackers with, especially the likes of Gurdurr and Sawk. But the main utility of Gothorita has been to remove almost all the physical walls of the tier.

I've also been using Agent Dell's brainchild of SD Spiking Cacturne with Dark Gem. This set allows Cacturne to either set up Spikes or SD when opportunity knocks, while still having a powerful Sucker Punch that OHKOs Cinccino and even Standard Skuntank after a boost and Rocks.

In a similar boat, I've been using a Shell Smash SR Carracosta to decent effect. I set up Rocks first usually, but if I set up a Shell Smash then I can set Rocks up almost any time I choose. The only problem is giving up Waterfall for Aqua Jet, but priority is hard to ignore.

I'll also ask a question to everybody: Do you guys feel that Ice types are still anti-meta, or has the recent influx of Ice types make them common enough to be a meta threat? We've seen a rise in Regice, Articuno, Piloswine, Rotom-F, and other Ice types. Is it worth preparing for Ice types, or should you just count yourself blessed if you happen to have an Ice check/counter on your team?

[Sweet Jesus]

good question whiteD.

I think the ice type in general is not that anti-meta, but 2 of it's users are. Regice and articuno both have a nasty SR weakness, but as long as you can keep them off the field, they are huge threats I always make sure to prepare for when teambuilding.

People often think of ice type attacks as something that comes with water pokes such as ludicolo and gorebyss and will bring a counter to those pokes, but regice and articuno have a much more powerful ice move, very different coverage and are actually very hard to kill on the special side considering special fire types are pretty rare and electric types are pretty weak.

Regice's boltbeam coverage and offensive articuno's hurricane are not easy things to counter without neglecting the previously mentioned water types. Ludi and gorebyss's two best counters are probably specially defensive ludi and mantine which can both be wrecked by either hurricane or thunderbolt.

Talking of hurricane in particular, while most special walls can take a neutral hurricane, there is barely nothing with offensive presence that can since the 3 main resists being rock steel and electric usualy have either pretty bad special defense, terrible offensive presence, can't take an ice beam or can't do more to cuno than it can roost off. Steel types in general are pretty rare although metang, one of articuno's best counters, is seeing a nice rise in usage. Rock types usualy don't have the sp.d to take an ice beam and there's only 2 bulky electric types (3 with eviobuzz) which don't have recovery and take a decent chunk from ice beam too.

[Shuckleking87]

Speaking of Gothorita, when I used Gothitelle back in the day, I used a max HP max D Bold Gothitelle with Calm Mind, Rest, Psychic and Charm. I was able to get to #3 on the ladder and this poke could rip through teams (most notable target being sawk). Potentially, you could be sitting at +6 SA/SD and the opponent at -6 Att. Unless the opponent got multiple crits, this could set up on most physical choice locked pokes. The benefit of gothitelle was I was able to receive leftovers damage while asleep for 2 turns, which is something gothorita cannot. Also, the times have changed since gothitelle left nu. Do you think the same set on gothorita could be viable?

[WhiteDMist]

Shuckleking, Charm is an interesting option for Gothirita. I think the main problem is the amount of set-up time is like an open invitation for crits. Also, since it only affects the current opposing Pokemon, the minute you take it out the switch in can come in and wreck face. At least with Reflect, you guarantee that you have a defensive buffer for that, and you support your teammates as well.

[DTC]

Yeah I love Simisage right now, although Overgrow is a bit over hyped imo. I find Overgrow is only a factor in like a fifth of my matches. Simisage's lack of usage came from us just not trying it out. It has always been good.

Ice-types in general are amazing in NU right now. Piloswine / Articuno / Regice / Rotom-Frost are some of the best Pokemon in the tier. All of them are very potent and a majority of teams lately are actually weak to those 4. I have not been using Piloswine that much recently, though. For SR setters I'm whoring Golem / Regirock. Golem and Piloswine are really quite similar. I like Golem because I can use an item like Ground Gem and not sacrifice a bunch of bulk. Regirock is amazingly reliable because it is practically impossible to OHKO and can quickly heal with Drain Punch.

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat Sweet Jesus

good question whiteD.

I think the ice type in general is not that anti-meta, but 2 of it's users are. Regice and articuno both have a nasty SR weakness, but as long as you can keep them off the field, they are huge threats I always make sure to prepare for when teambuilding.

People often think of ice type attacks as something that comes with water pokes such as ludicolo and gorebyss and will bring a counter to those pokes, but regice and articuno have a much more powerful ice move, very different coverage and are actually very hard to kill on the special side considering special fire types are pretty rare and electric types are pretty weak.

Regice's boltbeam coverage and offensive articuno's hurricane are not easy things to counter without neglecting the previously mentioned water types. Ludi and gorebyss's two best counters are probably specially defensive ludi and mantine which can both be wrecked by either hurricane or thunderbolt.

Talking of hurricane in particular, while most special walls can take a neutral hurricane, there is barely nothing with offensive presence that can since the 3 main resists being rock steel and electric usualy have either pretty bad special defense, terrible offensive presence, can't take an ice beam or can't do more to cuno than it can roost off. Steel types in general are pretty rare although metang, one of articuno's best counters, is seeing a nice rise in usage. Rock types usualy don't have the sp.d to take an ice beam and there's only 2 bulky electric types (3 with eviobuzz) which don't have recovery and take a decent chunk from ice beam too.

Instead of just naming two of them as better than the rest, I'd argue that nearly every Ice-type available to us in NU (bar silly ones like Glalie and Walrein, the latter of which ium and I learned is basically useless in every way shape and form) simply are just very good Pokemon in the current metagame and the Ice typing is just an amendment to that. Piloswine and Regice are very similar in the sense that they have the right typing and bulk to deal with common threats, and both also have the offensive tools / support to fit a niche on many different teams. Even with the SR weakness that Regice carries, nothing really can replace the rather incredible 80 / 100 / 200 defenses that it has (and 100 SpA with BoltBeam coverage, too...). Articuno is another beneficiary of extraordinary bulk + offensive utility (especially now that it gets Hurricane too), and it excels in a tier where 'bulky stuff' comes only once in a blue moon. Obviously they all still have their flaws, most notably the SR weakness, but the advantages that they carry really outweigh the negatives.

Maybe the mystery of us having "good Ice-types" boils down to the fact that higher tiers don't want to use them thanks to their susceptibility to SR. Taking movepools / abilities / statistics into account, these are really already among the best Pokemon in the tier - it's just the typing that leads us to think of them as 'underrated' or whatever.

Originally Posted by Fat Shuckleking87

Speaking of Gothorita, when I used Gothitelle back in the day, I used a max HP max D Bold Gothitelle with Calm Mind, Rest, Psychic and Charm. I was able to get to #3 on the ladder and this poke could rip through teams (most notable target being sawk). Potentially, you could be sitting at +6 SA/SD and the opponent at -6 Att. Unless the opponent got multiple crits, this could set up on most physical choice locked pokes. The benefit of gothitelle was I was able to receive leftovers damage while asleep for 2 turns, which is something gothorita cannot. Also, the times have changed since gothitelle left nu. Do you think the same set on gothorita could be viable?

Originally Posted by Fat WhiteDMist

Shuckleking, Charm is an interesting option for Gothirita. I think the main problem is the amount of set-up time is like an open invitation for crits. Also, since it only affects the current opposing Pokemon, the minute you take it out the switch in can come in and wreck face. At least with Reflect, you guarantee that you have a defensive buffer for that, and you support your teammates as well.

Outside of setting up on Alomoonguss and choice-locked Pokemon, Gothorita always seems to be lacking to me (plus it's just asking to be crit, since it takes so long to set up by just waiting out the Rest turns). I don't think it's honestly as good when you're playing people that don't simply rely on the overused core of Alomomola + Amoonguss. Why wouldn't you use Musharna or Gardevoir instead, both of whom have a ton of utility outside of setting up on common defensive cores? :(

Originally Posted by Fat DTC

Yeah I love Simisage right now, although Overgrow is a bit over hyped imo. I find Overgrow is only a factor in like a fifth of my matches. Simisage's lack of usage came from us just not trying it out. It has always been good.

Ice-types in general are amazing in NU right now. Piloswine / Articuno / Regice / Rotom-Frost are some of the best Pokemon in the tier. All of them are very potent and a majority of teams lately are actually weak to those 4. I have not been using Piloswine that much recently, though. For SR setters I'm whoring Golem / Regirock. Golem and Piloswine are really quite similar. I like Golem because I can use an item like Ground Gem and not sacrifice a bunch of bulk. Regirock is amazingly reliable because it is practically impossible to OHKO and can quickly heal with Drain Punch.

In regards to Overgrow on Simisage, I see it mostly as just another reason that you should be using it rather than _the_ reason to use it. Souped-up Giga Drains are always nice, though. Otherwise I'd agree ~

[Ewil]

Piloswine is a crazy beast !
really ! I never ever find a concentrate of physical power, bulk and utility in one poke.
Sometimes i sweep entire teams only with him (yeah, noobs or unprepared player are easy to find, but it's always funny to do lol).

Regice is really good, but i don't like spinners very much (infact i rarely use SR weak mons) but when it comes in a clear field, is god damn bulky and the BoltBeam coverage helps a lot.

Actually i don't think that Ice is antimeta. There aren't lots of dragons or Ground/Flying mons in NU, so Ice is not that essentials. Having as STAB or as coverage Ice is always a good move in your team.

[Swamp-Rocket]

I used Simisage before it was cool /hipster. In a more serious context, Simisage was really overlooked before it got overgrow - I used a Leaf Storm set originally and it really caught some opponents off gaurd (they expected a Nasty Plot) and it really laid a smack down on some opponents - it could OHKO Swellow after Stealth Rock, for example, which is really awesome. Its not even ranked in the viability thread iirc, as a testament to how ignored it it - it is a pretty cool Pokemon, and while Overgrow helps it, its mainly just a perk that made people pay attention to it in my point of view.

Although I really haven't used Regice in a while, I have seen several in action and while I don't really think it is underrated by any sort (it is getting pretty common) it is an excellent check to Special Attacking Pokemon, walling them all into oblivion. Its ability to hit back is also very nice, as its BoltBeam means that a lot of Pokemon either a) have trouble switching into it or b) have trouble hitting it hard before they die. When Gorebyss was used a lot, for example, Regice was really overlooked for its ability to take a hit and do massive (aka OHKO) damage to Gorebyss - its kind of wierd Regice has started to gain popularity after Gorebyss dropped down in usage, but I guess Ludicolo's existence is pretty helpful.

[Brammi]

Originally Posted by Fat DTC

Yeah I love Simisage right now, although Overgrow is a bit over hyped imo. I find Overgrow is only a factor in like a fifth of my matches. Simisage's lack of usage came from us just not trying it out. It has always been good.

Simisage has indeed always been good. I tried to facilitate a rise in its usage in BW1, but noone followed. :(

Overgrow certainly does help it, and as a fast Pokemon is can definitely now make use of similar kinds of sets to Simisage. I think that in terms of what stops Simisage in comparison to other sweepers is that it can break through alot of the top special walls with access to focus blast to deal with Licky, Regice and co.

I actually haven't been seeing much of the old meta of carrying a specially defensive fire Pokemon as much which is all the more reason to use Simisage.

On the topic of ice types, alot of teams are still carrying fighting Pokemon. And this all comes back to the lower and lower usages of the old norm of Specially Defensive Fire Pokes. Support Flareon is quite underrated at the moment. I've seen it once in the last month. It's better than that.

Now. Tauros. SubLO Set. Breaks teams open for things like Zangoose and Swellow to clean up.

EDIT: Has anyone tried Leech Seed + 3 Attacks ala late DPP Shaymin?

[Machineae]

The difference in bulk between Shaymin and Simisage is huge. 100/100/100 vs 75/63/63. No reason to go for leech seed.

[Brammi]

OU v NU is a big difference in power. You use Leech Seed to negate leftovers recovery and allow safer switches in early game, not for significant survivability.

[Direwolf12]

About Serperior... I still doubt he'll stay in NU if/when Contrary is released... the guy managed to top the DW-OU chart... and that's with heavy hitters like Marvel Scale Dragonite and Shadow Tag Chandlure who both utterly wall him...

[IceSpade]

^Serperior is definitely going out of NU, but even if he doesn't, NU has Miltank and Amoonguss to take care of him. Too bad though that we'll never get to use his awesome SubCoil and SubCM sets if he goes. :(

[Cinccino]

Hey Snow Warning is unbanned, so I guess we can frolick around with Snover, Stallrein, and Rotom-F until the next tier shift amirite?

[JirachiCelebiMew]

Oh my god. I can't wait to use my Hail team!!!!!!!!!!! So awesome. So how will Hail change the current metagame?

[MMF]

Don't get too excited everyone, Hail won't be unbanned in NU unless Zeb says so :>

[Zebraiken*]

It's being discussed. Talk about it here if you like, but there are no guarantees of anything.

[Shuckleking87]

Honestly, I do not think Hail will do much. You would be forced to use Snover, in which his highest stat is its attacks are 62, so it's essentially 6-5 with hail. Then blizzard can pretty much replace ice beam on all sets minus ludicolo and swift swimmers. I think this would definitely increase the usage of Rotom Fross and hopefully Regice, but the problem there is all of the stealth rock weaknesses. I think snow storm is most intriguing is because of either the cancellation of leftovers recovery and breakage of sturdy. Of course Stallrein would pop up as it does have respectable 110/90/90 bulk and ice body that couple with a protect will give it 25% recovery in 2 turns. However, Snow Cloak is banned, otherwise, Aritcuno would be the biggest benefit for hail.

[/B/utterfree]

Originally Posted by Fat Direwolf12

About Serperior... I still doubt he'll stay in NU if/when Contrary is released...

At the least, Serperior stays in NU and just provokes Amoongus to be used more, not to mention other x4 Grass resistors like Trash Cloak Wormadam and Charizard.

Originally Posted by Fat Shuckleking87

Honestly, I do not think Hail will do much. You would be forced to use Snover, in which his highest stat is its attacks are 62, so it's essentially 6-5 with hail.

I tried using Snover in UU during the Suspect Round. I was disappointed. Permanent Hail theoretically would be even less threatening in RU and NU, since the dominating Pokes in each have some way of disposing Snover very quickly.

[FLCL]

Originally Posted by Fat /B/utterfree

I tried using Snover in UU during the Suspect Round. I was disappointed. Permanent Hail theoretically would be even less threatening in RU and NU, since the dominating Pokes in each have some way of disposing Snover very quickly.

UU is dominated by powerful Fire and Fighting types that are huge threats to Hail. They also have extremely sturdy walls like Snorlax, Milotic, Registeel, and Empoleon to resist Blizzard. In NU, Ice-types such as Regice, Rotom-F, and Articuno are all extremely anti-metagame and giving them Hail will just make them better. Many Eviolite users and Pokemon that rely on Synthesis or Moonlight will be nerfed. Snover is often the least important part of a Hail team, so I don't understand how killing it off quickly makes Hail a non-threatening factor in NU.

[Ewil]

If Snover comes to NU, many people will starts using RD Ludicolo even more and probably will runs Focus Blast over some move. Hail will be a dominant part of the meta and it can be suspect pretty sure.
Snover is a decent wall with eviolite and can annoys things with Leech Seed, scout with Protect and do some damages with Blizzard/Ice Shard. Not counting that he can bring back that annoying strategy of Endevoir-Solosis&Duosion, oh boy if it was annoy xD

[Amarillo]

I don't understand how hail would be "less stronger" in NU. One thing to note is that all strong abusers of Hail (Rotom-F, Glaceon, Walrein, etc.) are all stil in NU. These are all really the choices for abusing hail in UU as well. Especially Rotom-F and Glaceon are really strong imo. If Hail were to be allowed in RU as well, I can see those two making the jump rather quick.

So, hail would be very, very annoying at the very least, if not too good.

[Sidfrid]

We could make a tournament, something on the lines of NU + Snow Warning Snover.

It could settle some precedent, and it surely will be funny!