np: BW Ubers Suspect Round 2 - U Can't Touch This (UPDATE: EVASION UNBANNED!)

[bojangles**]

Apologies for all the delays with the last round. School has gotten in the way and Jibaku is inactive as well. Therefore I am naming Poppy as my new second-in-command for Ubers Testing. Congrats Poppy!

Anyway, we're doing the Evasion Clause now. Will Double Team see the light of day or will it get banned again like OHKO Clause? Stay tuned.

The way this will work is as follows. After 2 weeks of laddering, the Ubers Council will convene to decide whether the metagame is stable enough to move to a large-scale measure. The only reason this would not be done is if the metagame is so uncompetitive that it does not function at all. At this time, they can also vote to amend the clauses in certain ways as a further option in the vote. After this meeting, we will look at the ladder and use a set of requirements to determine who can vote. We're taking a page from OU's book and setting the requirements at a Glicko2 rating of 2000 and a Glicko2 deviation of 55 or lower on the Ubers SUSPECT ladder. Note that this time there will be an Ubers Suspect Ladder, which will replace the normal Ubers Ladder. Also be aware that, if we are not satisfied with the amount of people who qualify with the above ratings, we may lower it; do NOT rely on this, however.

Here's a timeline:

• Wednesday, November 28: Ubers Suspect Ladder goes up with Evasion Clause removed, replacing the normal Ubers Ladder.
• Wednesday, December 12, 11:59 PM: Round finishes. A screenshot will be taken of the ladder and a thread will be posted to identify yourselves.
• Friday, December 14, 11:59PM: Special applications are due and we will start voting.
• Sometime after the round ends but before we begin voting, we will have a council meeting on #uberscouncil on SynIRC. The date and time will be announced further down the road when the council members' schedules allow.

[ala]

55 deviation v_v how terrible

also grats Poppy ^_^

[Focus]

Ubers currently only disallows evasion moves, iirc. If that's correct, would extending the current Evasion Clause to items/abilities be a potential outcome of this test? Since people seem okay with the clause as it is, I'd imagine the answer is "no", but more clarity is always nice.

[doublenikesocks]

Played like 3 matches with this with a normal ubers team, got swept twice by minimize smash pass teams passing to Espeon. Incredibly cheap, forces you to run a mold breaker phazing mon.

[jonathanrp]

Originally Posted by Fat doublenikesocks

Played like 3 matches with this with a normal ubers team, got swept twice by minimize smash pass teams passing to Espeon. Incredibly cheap, forces you to run a mold breaker phazing mon.

I was probably one of them
did one of them use drifblim

[doublenikesocks]

Originally Posted by Fat jonathanrp

I was probably one of them
did one of them use drifblim

yeah, you must of been the one that 4-0d me

[jonathanrp]

so yeah my impression of this meta so far
baton pass everywhere
I've been running a BP team that's been doing pretty well

...

---

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Trait: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spd / 4 HP / 252 Def
Jolly Nature
- Minimize
- Shell Smash
- Baton Pass
- Spore

Drifblim @ Leftovers
Trait: Aftermath
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spd
Bold Nature
- Baton Pass
- Calm Mind
- Minimize
- Substitute

Espeon @ Leftovers
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Stored Power
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Baton Pass

Scizor @ Leftovers
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Iron Defense
- Bug Bite
- Baton Pass
- Roost

Deoxys-Speed @ Light Clay
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

Mew @ Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Baton Pass
- Will-O-Wisp
- Amnesia
- Rock Polish

Espeon OHKOs like everything in the meta with a boosted stored power

if I get to reqs I'm voting to keep this clause intact, this isn't looking like it's going to be a good meta to keep.

[Theorymon]

I'll probably make a team for this on Saturday, but I might as well mention my expereince with evasion in other metagames (GBU and Glitchmons). In my experience, Evasion has usually been a sort of losing strategy. It's basicly "I PRAY TO GOD THIS WON'T HIT OR ELSE IVE BEEN USELESS" sort of deal. I think the only chance it has of being any use is Baton Pass, so I guess I'll try that out. This could go either way though since I haven't used Evasion in Ubers before, but I can't help but feel like this test is gonna be more boring than the last one!

Edit: Something else I think will be an issue for evasion is the fact that Thunder is very common in Ubers, and even Aura Sphere is seen on Mewtwo. So I guess it'd be a good idea to find an evasion mon that resists those two moves!

[Theorymon]

Originally Posted by Fat Focus

Ubers currently only disallows evasion moves, iirc. If that's correct, would extending the current Evasion Clause to items/abilities be a potential outcome of this test? Since people seem okay with the clause as it is, I'd imagine the answer is "no", but more clarity is always nice.

Sorry for the double post, but this needs to be highlighted. The answer is no, if Evasion clause stays "banned", it will be the Ubers version of evasion clause, which still allows sand veil and the likes.

[Valentine]

70-100 matches.. playing against ubers evasion BP..
i'll have to think about that one :X

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Fat Theorymon

Edit: Something else I think will be an issue for evasion is the fact that Thunder is very common in Ubers, and even Aura Sphere is seen on Mewtwo. So I guess it'd be a good idea to find an evasion mon that resists those two moves!

baton pass doesn't mind, amnesia mew does not give a fuck..
outside of bp, what really benefits from evasion? sweepers would much rather cm, sd, dd, and sacrificing coverage isn't going help your sweep..

not calling you out, just thinking out loud

[AfroThunderRule]

I haven't played but how viable would Manaphy with Heart Swap be in this meta?

[Kebabe]

Outside of baton pass, chansey probably is the best abuser of evasion. If she gets more then one minimize and if you have some T-spike support she can even stall out physical attackers

[Hack He Must]

Also, Chansey has natural cure so toxic isn't exactly the end of the world! After testing it for a while, I found Theorymon's statement: "I PRAY TO GOD THIS WON'T HIT OR ELSE IVE BEEN USELESS," accurate enough to describe the scenario. It's usually better to switch when facing something like Terrakion, even if you have max evasion with Chansey.

My question for this round will be if taunt users are better in this type of meta. Maybe StallTwo, which seems like it could shut down a lot of evasion boosting, or Gliscor's stallbreaker set, coud get some more use perhaps?

[Hugin]

If you're facing Terrakion, switch out anyway, because every single one will be running Sacred Sword this time.

Also, expect lots of Thunder, Aura Sphere, Haze, and Perish Song. There are counters to accuracy-boosting, the question is whether they're effective enough, or even if they're too effective.

[Rayquaza_]

Chansey is a poor choice for an evasion abuser since it's weak to Terrakion's Sacred Sword, which is very usable.
She's also the perfect setup bait for CM Mewtwo with Aura Sphere -or pretty much ANYTHING with 101 subs and Aura Sphere. She's just going to waste PP without accomplishing anything.

I'm not finding evasion moves to be that broken so far TBH. Even a single turn spent using unreliable defensive moves in ubers is too risky with titans like Kyogre and Kyurem-W who can OHKO or 2HKO the entire metagame.

Hopefully, if they stay banned, the reason won't be something stupid like "we all agree evasion moves are not a viable strategy but we find them annoying so we're keeping them banned anyway".
Though I don't have high hopes for a more rational reason after seeing the comments on the OHKO clause test.

[preserve]

How come there isn't an Ubers Current and an Ubers Suspect like there is in OU?

[syrim]

The ubers ladder doesn't really have enough activity to get an accurate picture of how the suspects affect the metagame if that split is put into place.

[Nyara]

Double Team is decent for stallers, as it will most probably will win you 1-2 extra turns (like happened on the old days of RBY) on the long run, and Wobbuffet or other Pokémon with counter will have more importance as they can counter without caring of the evasion gains. I don't think it does have other use apart from stall for some extra turns, or for the tricky use of some spinblockers.

Minimize by other hand can do most that just it, 2+ boost of evasion in one turn can easy win you a lot of important turns without an extra use, I think Pokémon like Unburden Drifblim, any defensive or mixed Starmie, Chansey (with Terrakion K.O), and maybe Shadow Tag Chandelure can exploit it very well (but without being broken). Cleafable and Muk can make some use of it with surprise tactics, too.

Prankster users of Double Team can also make use of it on a desesperate try to save their life (by the hands of a mad Kyogre, most probably). Some Confuse Ray users can now stall somewhat better with that combination, too, but that's rare. I think the viable users of Double Team are kinda short, I think only Rest Snorlax with Terrakion out can make a really good use of it.

I think it's a good idea to have at least one Pokémon with Counter/Mirror Coat/Magic Coat and/or an Always-Hit-60-Power-Moves/Mind Reader/Foresight/Perish Song or the combo Lock-On + Zap Cannon, like on the olds days were the Evasion Clause din't existed.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted by Fat Nyara

Double Team is decent for stallers, as it will most probably will win you 1-2 extra turns (like happened on the old days of RBY) on the long run, and Wobbuffet or other Pokémon with counter will have more importance as they can counter without caring of the evasion gains. I don't think it does have other use apart from stall for some extra turns, or for the tricky use of some spinblockers.

Ehhh, keep in mind that statistically, DT is less effective than Cosmic Power, and no one ever uses a moveslot on that. There are advantages to each move(distribution, DT blocks some Phazing but certain attacks ignore it entirely, etc), but if Cosmic Power is completely ignored(5 significant users last month, none used it more than 10% of the time, none were popular users), I don't see DT taking the metagame by storm.

Minimize is more powerful, but you still have 4MSS to deal with. The counters to Minimize are much easier to fit on your team than Minimize is.

I think it's a good idea to have at least one Pokémon with Counter/Mirror Coat/Magic Coat and/or an Always-Hit-60-Power-Moves/Mind Reader/Foresight/Perish Song or the combo Lock-On + Zap Cannon, like on the olds days were the Evasion Clause din't existed.

Most of those moves are too situational, other than Perish Song and maybe Foresight. Try Aura Sphere, Sacred Sword, Haze, or even just use your own boosting move every time they boost evasion. Think about it, would you rather face a +6 Evade Blissy or a +3/+3 Ubermon?

[Enguarde]

Red Card Forretress and Dual Phase Giratina have been doing rather well against most baton passing evasion teams.

[Level 51]

So I've been playing around with evasion, and I must say, it's pretty dang fun.

Originally Posted by Fat AfroThunderRule

I haven't played but how viable would Manaphy with Heart Swap be in this meta?

I was thinking of using Manaphy with Heart Swap, but the thing is that not many teams which I've faced actually make use of evasion, so a Heart Swap Manaphy is in effect a waste of an attack slot. If Baton Pass does become much more common, though, it might be nice on some teams.

On a separate note, Simple Swoobat is quite fun to use:

Swoobat @ Focus Sash
Trait: Simple
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Double Team
- Charge Beam
- Heat Wave / Calm Mind
- Stored Power

I run this with a Roar/Endeavor Level 1 Aron, and Charge Beam is a good finishing move for the two victims which Aron lays its claws on, simultaneously dealing the little bit of extra damage (12 or so) while giving a 70% chance of a +2 SpA boost to Swoobat. Meanwhile, Double Team is basically like Minimize on any other regular Pokemon. Heat Wave is good for Arceus-Steel (or really, any Steel Pokemon), while Calm Mind lets you snag a quick boost for Stored Power if the opponent is a Thunder/Blizzard/Sacred Sword/Aura Sphere user.

Obviously I'm not going to stand a chance to vote in this round, but just some thoughts from a noob v_v

[CactusCacti]

So for those who run sandstorm this little fellow takes a nice advantage of evasion set uppers while you can set up yourself;

Gliscor @ BrightPowder
Ability; Sandveil
Jolly nature
EV; 252 atk, 252 speed, 4 spdef
- Substitute
- Roost
- Swords Dance
- Aerial Ace

Set up your substitute, swords dance it up and let that STAB aerial ace rip.
You're going to need to swords dance atleast twice to get decent damage going though, but this is mostly to counter other evasion users with advantage to yourself.

[Bent1ey]

I think there is a good chance this isn't broken, the issue is that it can be kind of annoying if it actually proves to be useful. If it's awful... Well, it will be like facing a Shedinja from time to time.

I do wonder the kind of pokemon that can actually abuse this, losing a moveslot is actually a big deal.

[jonathanrp]

Originally Posted by Fat Level 51

So I've been playing around with evasion, and I must say, it's pretty dang fun.



I was thinking of using Manaphy with Heart Swap, but the thing is that not many teams which I've faced actually make use of evasion, so a Heart Swap Manaphy is in effect a waste of an attack slot. If Baton Pass does become much more common, though, it might be nice on some teams.

On a separate note, Simple Swoobat is quite fun to use:

Swoobat @ Focus Sash
Trait: Simple
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Double Team
- Charge Beam
- Heat Wave / Calm Mind
- Stored Power

I run this with a Roar/Endeavor Level 1 Aron, and Charge Beam is a good finishing move for the two victims which Aron lays its claws on, simultaneously dealing the little bit of extra damage (12 or so) while giving a 70% chance of a +2 SpA boost to Swoobat. Meanwhile, Double Team is basically like Minimize on any other regular Pokemon. Heat Wave is good for Arceus-Steel (or really, any Steel Pokemon), while Calm Mind lets you snag a quick boost for Stored Power if the opponent is a Thunder/Blizzard/Sacred Sword/Aura Sphere user.

Obviously I'm not going to stand a chance to vote in this round, but just some thoughts from a noob v_v

are you still using negative EVs on that Aron? :p

but yeah, Swoobat seems like it would be a good abuser because of Simple. Imagine if it got minimize. T_T +4 evasion in a single turn

[Nyara]

Originally Posted by Fat jonathanrp

are you still using negative IVs on that Aron? :p

but yeah, Swoobat seems like it would be a good abuser because of Simple. Imagine if it got minimize. T_T +4 evasion in a single turn

But you can Batton Pass him a Minimize or 2+ Double Team to help to the abuse.