BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Lady Alex]

Originally Posted by Fat StarmanXL

This might be a bit of a random question, but does Dugtrio do much of anything other than take out Heatran and Ninetales for Genesect? I only ask because, well, the ones I keep running into don't seem to do much outside of that. Granted, this is probably because I don't really get to high-ladder play, but I'm just having trouble seeing what else it does. Same goes for Magnezone, which I tried running on another team but it would up just being more trouble than it was worth.

Do people regularly run trappers for other pokemon in this metagame? Outside of the occaisional BP chain I haven't seen much other uses of them.

Yes, dugtrio has more uses than just checking Heatran, Ninetales, and Tyranitar. It's a good check to both Volcarona and Terrakion, and, if you're playing against a team where some of these threats are already gone or simply not present, it can be used as a last ditch effort to cripple an opponent's sweeper with Memento.

As the above poster said, Gothitelle works really well for trapping several walls. Wobbuffet isn't that common because it has a hard time coming in on anything but walls, and doesn't even deal with them as well as Gothitelle. It does have the advantage of having encore, so it does still have a niche.

Trappers can't trap baton passers btw.

[StarmanXL]

I see. I guess I was just getting a skewed perspective because of the kind of team I run--by the way, I know trappers can't trap BP users, I meant that the BP teams were using trappers with memento to shut down enemies (I swear I played a Latios/Dugtrio/Diglett/Gothitelle/Scizor/Garchomp team once, it was...something else).

[Lady Alex]

That's not a bp chain lol. BP chains are so constricted for team slots that they can't afford to use trappers, and none of the trappers learn baton pass anyway. Just for giggles, though, even if BP chains did have room for a trapper, Gothitelle, Wobbuffet, Dugtrio, and Magnezone all fail to deal with some of the pokemon that give the playstyle the most trouble, such as Sableye and Tornadus-T.

[StarmanXL]

Oh man, Sableye is a huge pain in the ass lately, if only because of that priority WoW and Taunt. I must say, though, I find it kinda interesting that a decent amount of RU, UU, and BL pokemon seem to be showing up more (Sableye, Gothitelle, Slowbro, Amoongus, Victini). Granted, they're not showing up a whole helluva lot, but enough where I've at least noticed it. I'd imagine they're quite niche, though, so I'm unsure if they'll ever gain enough usage to move up tiers.

[Lady Alex]

If Genesect gets banned, I could see a potential increase in Gothitelle and Amoongus usage. Amoongus is one of the best Keldeo counters and checks Terrakion reasonable well. Scizor usage will rise, allowing gothitelle to trap it if she predicts the switch. She'll also work really well with Scizor, trapping the Tentacruel and Skarmory who frequently switch in to soak Scizor's u-turns.

[SJCrew]

I think Tornadus-T is a bigger disincentive for Amoonguss usage than Genesect. Genesect doesn't get free turns on Amoonguss, since Amoonguss can tank any one of its moves while it is healthy and hit the switch-in with a status attack or wear them down with weak Giga Drain/Hidden Power damage before switching out.

Amoonguss has a lot of other problems too: it gives free turns to Ferrothorn under Rain to set up Spikes and free turns to Heatran to annoy things with Lava Plume burns and Toxic + Protect. Heatran is immensely difficult to switch into these days, so you'll want to avoid anything that gives it free turns without any sort of fight whatsoever.

Another thing to note about is that while Amoonguss is bulky, it is simply not a good general purpose wall. It cannot switch into Dragons at all and some of them can even use it for set up bait. Even using Amoonguss now, I find myself having to slap on Mamoswine to check Heatran/Dragons without losing offensive momentum (keeping in mind it cannot switch in either). 114/70/80 defenses are not good enough to take powerful neutral attacks in OU, even with investment.

Amoonguss usage will most likely stay where it is because even with its niche qualities, it is still a very limited Pokemon that does not fit on just any team. It can only check a handful of things and will often open you up to several more.

[Jcpdragonx]

I really think Tangrowth is better than Amoonguss and walls a large portion of OU. It can take outrages, earthquakes and stone edges much better than the Mushroom. Leech Seed/Earthquake are nice moves to have to wear down Jirachi or Heatran, or for stalling out Pokemon such as bulk up Conkeldurr. I guess it all depends on weather you want a special or physical wall.

[BKC]

Since Jcp mentioned Tangrowth, I figured I'd post one of my favorite combos in this metagame and a Regenerator core superior to AmoongBro:
Tangrowth + Slowking.

sets

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Tangrowth (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Slowking (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 16 Def / 12 SAtk / 216 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Dragon Tail
- Slack Off

Like Jcp said, Tangrowth is a boss. I've been using it since Excadrill days and it is just incredibly reliable; tanks physical hits like no tomorrow, and between Leech Seed and Regenerator, it never dies. Unfortunately its SpDef is beyond bad, it absolutely blows.

Slowking is a hell of a great rain counter; for example, Choice Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump can't 2HKO...that's impressive. It's got reliable recovery and Regenerator. Too bad its physical defense is below average, but Scald's burn rate helps with that to some extent (screw you Scizor!!!).

This core works best with multiple entry hazards because they force loads of switches and Slowking can phaze with Dragon Tail; I personally like Forretress for this role because it can set-up any hazard I want and can also Rapid Spin; even though this core doesn't mind Stealth Rock as much as other physical walls, Toxic Spikes are still a bitch and it's just much easier to wall things when you come in and take damage before you even get hit with an attack.

Overall, Tang + King is an incredibly solid defensive combination, give it a shot.

[alexwolf]

I find T-Wave more useful than Dragon Tail overall. Many boosting special attackers that Slowking would want to phaze carry Sub or are beat by Psyshock, such as CM Latias, CM Jirachi, and CM Keldeo. Obviously D-Tail helps rack up entry hazard damage, but T-Wave helps imensely against many offensive mons, especially against Tornadus-T, as Slowking can take two Hurricanes and paralyze it back, while without T-Wave its only option is to spam Slack Off 'till LO damage takes its toll on Torn-T, which is very risky due the 30% confusion chance.

[AfroThunderRule]

With Genesect banned how has this changed your team? The way you now team-bulid? Or just general thoughts on the whole situation?

[Lavos Spawn]

no more genesect B)

i really think this will be a positive change for the game in general, because now instead of just slapping genesect on teams you actually have to think about teambuilding. also now there's no ultra strong fast scizor revenge killing literally everything with base speed less than 100. no more rock polish instant broken sweeper, no more obnoxious ebelt set or overpowered cb set...i might enjoy ou for the first time in months

edit: can't use my sun team anymore though...

[LucaroarkZ]

I can't use Genesect on my team anymore. That simple.

Anyway, not that I'm complaining about Genesect's banning; Its banning is definitely going to make team building easier for me since I don't have to worry about it killing everything or being a fucking broken RP sweeper. Maybe I'll make a team that I actually enjoy using. Overall, Genesect was super annoying and made the metagame dull, so I am very much happy about this change.

[KarateF22]

I think Genesect getting banned will make balanced teams much more viable now. He was simply too good at picking anything less than offense/hyper offense apart and hurt stall even more than it already was hurt. That said, will be a rocky week ahead as the removal of genesect will definitely cause a huge metagame shift... Scizor back in top 5 anyone?

[gengarsnemisis]

I think pretty much everyone here is glad that gene is gone.Its nice to see mons' such as hydregion, alakazam and reuniclus will becomeing much better now. The only thing I dont like about gene gone is....more scizor...ew...

[Myzozoa]

I feel kind of ambivalent about all the tournaments I'm in now that genesect is Uber because I felt so comfortable and in control abusing the scarf and rp and specs sets on various teams, now I have to go back and team build. Further, the post genesect metagame is still horrible, with rain as overpowering as it is so I just really want to get to the next round and ban Tornadus-t or Keldeo in order to bring a balance back. Two steps forward one step back type of situation I guess.

[Rewer]

there was never balance, more like becoming a teeter. rain is too dominant in the non gene metagame and i believe those rain abusers will end up banned too and we'll basically get back to bw1 lol, its kinda the solution though, fuck torn-t seriously

[Siggu]

Instead of banning rain abusers, what about trying to see what happens if other weather abusers (Excadrill, as I doubt Sand Veil Garchomp will return) and see what happens (Either Sand teams regain some of their lost ground or nothing changes)?

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Now that Genesect is gone, I feel much more comfortable building teams. The fact that I don't need to prepare for Genesect anymore means now that I can make my team without guilt on my heart.

I can see some positive changes on the metagame. For example, Dugtrio's usage declining, which means that Tyranitar will see a rose on usage. However, I'm not a soothsayer to tell if this will really happen; I am only saying this based on the fact that Dugtrio's usage increased greatly when Genesect was introduced on the metagame. I hope that people use Tyranitar more, and stop using things like Shed Shell Heatran :)

About Genesect itself, it was way too versatile to prepare for him without having your team vulnerable to one other thing. For example, I was using Choice Band Tyranitar as a check to Genesect, which made my team more weak to Dugtrio, and if I used SpD Hippowdon, my team lost some good offensive prowess.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Seth Vilo

While not as huge a deal as it is in Ubers, the fact that Excadrill now also gets Mold Breaker is extremely cool to slap floaty crap like Rotom-W, Lati@s, Hydreigon, and Bronzong. Again like in Ubers, a bulky Rapid Spin set may be something to look in to if our beloved 2'4" mole is given a test.

Rain is huge. Sand was murdered with BW2 with Tornadus, Keldeo, formerly Gene sect, and Landorus using Sheer Force more often. I'm interested to see an attempt at balancing weathers, especially now that we have Breloom.

/freeexcadrill

Landorus is only using Sheer Force more often because it's the only way which it can be used on non-sandstorm teams. Physical Landorus is actually stronger on sandstorm teams. Sandstorm wasn't necessarily murdered with these threats that you said; All of them can be played around. Keldeo is even a boon for sandstorm teams themselves, as it is a great wallbreaker and check for opposing rain teams.

[PK Gaming]

So Genesect got banned.

Can't say i'm surprised, guess but a part of me is depressed to see it go because I really liked it, its a damn pity it ended up being broken. Though for the most part, I like this change. The metagame (slowly) gets better and variability slightly goes up, so no harm done. Good riddance even!

---

Reunited and it feels so good ♪

[ChrisTehAwesome]

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

Reunited and it feels so good ♪

Definitely thought the link was going to lead to a Hydreigon, but Haxorus is close enough. It's definitely an interesting time for the metagame right now, and some of the threats that genesect was best at checking should be getting some more usage. I'm looking to see a resurgance in Therian usage, and maybe even Celebi.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat ChrisTehAwesome

Definitely thought the link was going to lead to a Hydreigon, but Haxorus is close enough. It's definitely an interesting time for the metagame right now, and some of the threats that genesect was best at checking should be getting some more usage. I'm looking to see a resurgance in Therian usage, and maybe even Celebi.

Speaking of Celebi, I think that some of its offensive sets, like Nasty Plot and that offensive tank, became significantly more viable. I hope that people use more Celebi as a check to rain teams, especially against Keldeo. The only thing on rain teams that really threat Celebi is Tornadus-T, and that's a problem that's fairly easy to solve with something like SpD Jirachi.

[Wizarus]

So Gene is banned. I'm actually going to start using Lucario again; Genesect was such a hard-check to it.

[CLionSpecial]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: a ban on perma-weather is the better alternative. Multiple steps have been taken to balance rain, and it's still the dominant force. This "new metagame" is little more than Weather Wars II, Attack of the Therians. Battles that boil down to Politoed vs. Ninetales/T-tar are not a sign of a healthy metagame, and bringing back Excadrill or Blaziken would only worsen that situation.

[MJB]

I personally dont feel that rain (or any weather really) is particularly dominant.

Rain, however, feels like its "too good" simply because it is the easiest weather to build a successful team around but that does not mean that it is the best type of team to build.

Other weathers or team archetypes may be harder to build around but can be just as successful from my experience.

Also anyone who suggests bringing something down because it checks something that they consider broken is not thinking very logically. Broken stuff should not check broken stuff (in OU atleast). If something is broken then ban it, dont look for something to be unbanned so that something else can be checked.