Balanced Hackmons - Page 35

Champion Steve · Nov 23rd, 2012, 5:37:14 PM

Thought I'd post my team and see what you guys think of it. It peaked at the top of the ladder though I'll attribute that to nobody with a high score being on at the time.

Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 248 Spd
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Quiver Dance
- Baton Pass
- Magic Coat

My lead, it Quiver Dances on the first turn while I scout the enemy's ability and then either sets up rocks or baton pass to Palkia on the second turn. Speed is so I have the advantage if we both use switching moves.

Palkia @ Draco Plate
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Water Spout
- Judgment
- Recover
- Copycat
Used to be a Reshiram, but Palkia has less trouble with those annoying Flash Fire Steels. Strategy is simple: use Water Spout then Copycat it for priority. This sets claim to fame is that it very reliably defeats Imposter Chansey.

Slaking @ Lum Berry
Trait: Illusion
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- ExtremeSpeed
- Crunch
- Drain Punch
- Belly Drum
Classic set: pretend to be Shedinja, Belly Drum on the switch. These three moves OHKO most things at +6 and Illusion blocks Imposter. The only thing it struggles with are Unaware mons and Shedinja so these must be softened up beforehand.

Giratina @ Leftovers
Trait: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Rapid Spin
- Whirlwind
- Magic Coat
This set is designed to easily counter Shedinja with its immunity to Endeavor and can also phaze most bulky set-up sweepers. Turboblaze is to prey on noobs who don't pay close attention to the log. Also it sounds cooler.

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Bold Nature
- Heart Swap
- Substitute
- Magic Coat
- Baton Pass
The Imposter Chansey set we know and love.

Shedinja @ Lum Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Endeavor
- Ice Shard
- Safeguard
- Rain Dance
A lot of Sand teams rely on their weather to deal with Sturdinja so if it has been removed, Shedinja can come in after a kill and proceed to be invulnerable again. It also provides a nice Illusion for Slaking.

I'm interested in your thoughts.

Uselesscrab · Nov 25th, 2012, 12:40:50 AM

Hey, I'm new. I just started a few days ago on PS and I've been mostly playing BH. I have a few different teams. I may have battled some of the posters in the thread. I've had a lot of success with a few things:

• Using Magic Coat on my lead Shedinja to start the battle. It often messes up opponents.
• The Normalize Gengar set with Skill Swap. I also use Switcheroo and Heart Swap to mess up opponents.
• Some obvious ones: Prankster Groudon, Contrary Specs Reshiram, No Guard Rayquaza, SimpleGlow Mewtwo, etc.

Also, based on a message I saw in chat, I made a Balanced Hackmons team using no Ubers. It's sort of rain-based; I use Drizzle Light Ball Pikachu, lol.

As far as your team, Champion Steve, I like it. Rain Dance Shedinja is a nice touch, and that Slaking gets me every time. Why is your Palkia Prankster, though?

tehy · Nov 25th, 2012, 1:10:11 AM

As he states, it's so he can copycat his own water spout, which is helpful, since it then becomes hugely powerful and priority. I have to ask, though-why not just tail glow>recover, and surf/hydro pump>water spout? That way, you can sweep with +3 prankster STAB water moves, which still gives you plenty of power, and of course you've still got dragon plate boosted judgement. I understand that your set requires no setup, but i feel like STAB water spout and dragon plate judgement, as great as they are, aren't powerful enough to sweep with no boosts? (I guess you could run QD with recover, water spout, and dragon plate judgement, too.)

Champion Steve · Nov 25th, 2012, 11:11:45 AM

Those are good suggestions and the Palkia is the part of the team that is least finished - not long ago it was a Reshiram with a similar set and before that it was a Contrary Kyurem-B.

To explain my reasoning though: the set is meant to be the receiver of a baton pass from my Deoxys - if it was to use Tail Glow then an imposter could 2HKO it with Judgement meaning I would have to rely on annoying speed ties. The Surf/Hydro Pump/Water Spout choice is a difficult one - Hydro Pump isn't completely accurate and Surf is weaker than Judgement in most occasions. Still, Water Spout needs Recover if you want any kind of back-up plan so idk.

This set is kinda experimental anyway so there I'm unsure what the optimal options are.

Uselesscrab · Nov 25th, 2012, 1:05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat tehy

As he states, it's so he can copycat his own water spout, which is helpful, since it then becomes hugely powerful and priority.

Oh, ok. That seems like a good strategy.

Has anyone tried using Sap Sipper Swampert/Gastrodon? I know it's not that great statistically, but it catches people off guard sometimes and can absorb Spore, which is one of the most common moves in the tier. Same with Flash Fire Esca, Scizor, or Genesect.

I've also noticed that Landorus-T can work pretty well as a poor man's Groudon.

**verbatim** · Nov 25th, 2012, 7:11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Uselesscrab

Oh, ok. That seems like a good strategy.

Has anyone tried using Sap Sipper Swampert/Gastrodon? I know it's not that great statistically, but it catches people off guard sometimes and can absorb Spore, which is one of the most common moves in the tier.

Spore isn't an attack, so you don't need to use an otherwise worthless x4 weak pokemon to bait it. That being said, 95% of the time Sap Sipper is overshadowed by Magic Bounce.

Uselesscrab · Nov 25th, 2012, 7:45:01 PM

Yeah, but people don't expect it, and you can switch in to a free attack boost. I do agree that Magic Bounce is better, though.

The_Eevee_General · Nov 26th, 2012, 2:06:19 PM

I've used Sap Sipper on a Sub+Swords Dance Tyranitar in sand. I'm constantly hemming and hawing between Sucker Punch and Crunch, though.
I know Swords Dance and Sap Sipper come across as redundant, but getting a free sub and attack boost on the same turn is pretty nice. Plus, special Contrarymons will usually blast it with Leaf Storm, which again activates Sap Sipper.
Totally ruined by Mold Breaker, but what isn't?

Imanalt · Nov 26th, 2012, 4:56:23 PM

the problem with sap sipper over magic bounce on that is that magic bounce means you are hard to phaze, especially since ttar is bulky enough to be able to have its subs survive most dragon tails

Keldeo DeArtagnan · Nov 29th, 2012, 6:28:49 PM

Here's a set I use sometimes that's a little gimmicky but it can work:

Kyurem-Black
Ability: Prankster
Sleep Talk
Outrage
Copycat
Dragon Tail

Since everyone's using Spore all the time, why not make it work for you? Once you're put to sleep you can fire off +1 Outrage and Dragon Tail. I'd use Rest except I got really ticked off every time sleep talk called up Rest. The only problem is waking up too early, but you can also Copycat your outrages too. If I remember correctly, if your last move was sleep talk, Copycat will copy whatever Sleep Talk used, not Sleep Talk itself. The only problem it that it's pretty hard to stop once it gets going, which makes it all that more dangerous when Imposter Blissey switches in, and you're out of luck because I can't think of much that shuts it down completely other than Shedinja or Ferrothorn.

Uselesscrab · Nov 30th, 2012, 12:18:38 AM

That's pretty nice. I haven't seen that particular set before, but it seems relatively useful. What item do you use?

This made me want to look for more moves that I could exploit with Prankster besides Nature Power, Heart Swap, Copycat, and status ailment moves, and I didn't find much. Prankster Minimize seemed nice though. It could possibly put a halt to a sweep at some point in time.

Champion Steve · Nov 30th, 2012, 11:48:50 AM

A single Minimize is kind of a risky way to stop a sweep. If you were going to use Prankster to stop it then you would be as well using Heart Swap or Spore. Minimize mons are really planning to stick around for a while anyway so Simple or something that blocks status such as Magic Bounce or Poison Heal is probably more effective than priority stat boosts.

PS. Don't use a Minimize mon with Poison Heal please. I'm begging you here.

**Arcticblast** · Nov 30th, 2012, 3:09:13 PM

itt we learn that Champion Steve has yet to master the art of Skill Swap

Skill Swap is actually a great move on Pokemon whose abilities affect the entire field (in Singles). This includes auto-weather abilities, No Guard, Cloud Nine and Damp. Other abilities are nice to Skill Swap as well - Simple (versus Contrary 'mons), Normalize, Defeatist, etc.

~~By the way, I'm trying out Trick Room soon. Come at me.~~ Never mind

Keldeo DeArtagnan · Nov 30th, 2012, 9:57:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Uselesscrab

That's pretty nice. I haven't seen that particular set before, but it seems relatively useful. What item do you use?

This made me want to look for more moves that I could exploit with Prankster besides Nature Power, Heart Swap, Copycat, and status ailment moves, and I didn't find much. Prankster Minimize seemed nice though. It could possibly put a halt to a sweep at some point in time.

I used to use Life Orb but it tends to kill him from the recoil at a bad time, and he takes too much damage from stealth rock as it is. Usually I go with leftovers.

Uselesscrab · Nov 30th, 2012, 11:49:10 PM

Yeah, I really like using Normalize Gengar, although I suppose Giratina would work too.

lokt · Dec 1st, 2012, 12:00:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

itt we learn that Champion Steve has yet to master the art of Skill Swap

Skill Swap is actually a great move on Pokemon whose abilities affect the entire field (in Singles). This includes auto-weather abilities, No Guard, Cloud Nine and Damp. Other abilities are nice to Skill Swap as well - Simple (versus Contrary 'mons), Normalize, Defeatist, etc.

~~By the way, I'm trying out Trick Room soon. Come at me.~~ Never mind

I've tried trick room before, but I prefer this Dialga as a standalone sweeper, like OTR reuniclus in OU.
Dialga @ Dragon Gem/Iron Ball
Trait: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Draco Meteor
- Trick Room
- Overheat
- Toxic/Substitute
Basically, set up trick room and sweep with contrary boosted moves. The last slot can be for shedinja, or to punish opponents trying to stall trick room turns with switching.

Uselesscrab · Dec 1st, 2012, 12:47:00 AM

A few sets:

Ajnidehs (Gengar) @ Armor Fossil
Trait: Normalize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Skill Swap
- Switcheroo
- Heart Swap
- Shadow Ball

The idea is to Skill Swap onto a powerful sweeper and force a switch. Also, the Switcheroo can cripple an opponent as well. I've found Heart Swap useful too as an alternative method, and Shadow Ball is for Lugia, mostly.

Yummy (Swampert) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Sap Sipper
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Bulk Up
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake

My Sap Sipper Swampert. I know it isn't very good as far as moves are concerned, or stats for that matter, but it throws opponents off and thrives in a rain situation. I use it on a team based on Drizzle. Give me suggestions if you have any.

@lokt: Why the Iron Ball on Dialga? Just for slowness? The Lagging Tail does the same thing and doesn't have other side effects.

tehy · Dec 1st, 2012, 1:51:21 AM

The main problem with both above sets is that, without prankster, gengar can't outspeed speed-boosting sweepers, which means that heart swap and skill swap are mostly pointless. You're basically stopping slow, bulky sweepers, but with only one attack move, you're probably not able to sweep with those boosts. Also, armor fossil trick? Why not just run knock off at that point?

Why not just give him choice scarf? Suddenly, you can actually outspeed some sweepers, and trick becomes legitimately threatening, in the right situation. Also consider totally scrapping that set.

As for the swampert:First, coil over bulk up. Never hurts to have a 100% accurate aqua tail, and it can combat the odd evasion booster. Secondly, i'd take toxic out entirely, and maybe replace it with recover/amnesia/substitute/baton pass. Recover stops the enemy from beating you through attrition, while amnesia gives you a weapon against special attackers. Substitute blocks imposter and trick. If you feel an unaware pokemon or a prankster heart swap pokemon coming in,baton pass to something that can deal with them better. Or just give another sweeper boosts.. Finally, i'd recommend ice punch over aqua tail. The immediate power of aqua tail is nice, but there's very little you wouldn't hit with earthquake that you'd rather hit with aqua tail. Ice punch can let you actually damage things like contrary latios.

Edit: Aqua tail doesn't hit reshiram harder than earthquake, because dragon resists water, but not ground. Any target not covered by earthquake is going to be covered by ice punch (or, come to think of it, icicle crash.) It's not that big a deal if you've got rain up, but if you don't, it could be a problem. As for those other moves, there's no real reason to use them instead of earthquake, except for a couple SE targets, so that's why. The problem with toxic orb is that it confers an immunity to spore, but if you're fine with that... it works, i guess. Although then you could just use toxic.

Level 51 · Dec 1st, 2012, 5:24:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Uselesscrab

A few sets:

Ajnidehs (Gengar) @ Armor Fossil
Trait: Normalize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Skill Swap
- Switcheroo
- Heart Swap
- Shadow Ball

The idea is to Skill Swap onto a powerful sweeper and force a switch. Also, the Switcheroo can cripple an opponent as well. I've found Heart Swap useful too as an alternative method, and Shadow Ball is for Lugia, mostly.

Yummy (Swampert) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Sap Sipper
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Bulk Up
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake

My Sap Sipper Swampert. I know it isn't very good as far as moves are concerned, or stats for that matter, but it throws opponents off and thrives in a rain situation. I use it on a team based on Drizzle. Give me suggestions if you have any.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat tehy

Also, armor fossil trick? Why not just run knock off at that point?

tehy has a point; if you want to go for Trick, you shouldn't just give the opponent a useless item, you should give them one that cripples their Pokemon, like Black Sludge or something. This also helps to deal with walls like Shuckle or Giratina by removing their Leftovers.

Uselesscrab · Dec 1st, 2012, 12:40:48 PM

I wasn't thinking about Coil, so that's a good point.

Aqua Tail is mostly there because I'm often using it in rain, but why wouldn't I use something with higher base power over Ice Punch? Ice Punch doesn't hit Contrary Reshiram for super effective damage, or either Kyurem form for that matter. I don't see why I would use that over Coil + Bolt Strike/Hi Jump Kick/Megahorn/Stone Edge. (Just throwing out moves that are really powerful with slightly bad accuracy)

Gengar: Yeah, I changed it to Toxic Orb yesterday even before I read these posts. Choice Scarf is a good idea, though. Thanks for all your suggestions.

Aeongate · Dec 2nd, 2012, 7:32:02 PM

I literally made an account just so I could post here. I absolutely love this tier! You'd think it would be less diverse than the others, but in reality any Poke can run any set - even Shedinja, the most one-dimensional Pokemon ever, it seems, has some variety.

Here's my current team:

...

I'm still very new to this tier, so some help with my team would be greatly appreciated.

Toraen · Dec 2nd, 2012, 11:18:46 PM

Try out Psycho Shift over Toxic on your Giratina, as it goes through Magic Bounce, although you'll sacrifice a turn of Poison Heal recovery.

Champion Steve · Dec 3rd, 2012, 4:46:22 AM

Just want to say that Blissey will live a +6 Slaking Extreme Speed and OHKO back if you lose the speed-tie. If you go for Chansey then it takes just a little over 50% damage while also being insanely bulky in general. The only time I can see Scarf mattering is if your Blissey is low on health or against one of the Kyurems.

Imanalt · Dec 3rd, 2012, 9:42:36 AM

First of all, even though sturdinja is mah babbeh, i just don't think it is particularly good in the current metagame, because all reasonable teams have multiple ways of easily dealing with it, so i would recommend another mon of your choice in that slot. (if you dont change it, use magic coat > safeguard on it)

Next seconding eviolite chansey over scarf blissey, however this leaves you weak to very fast and strong set up sweepers who win the speed tie against you. Because of this i would recommend switching your giratina set to a prankster set to stop these sweepers.

Set:
Giratina @ lum berry/leftovers
Trait: Prankster
Bold Nature
- Magic coat/Substitute/Whirlwind/Rapid Spin
- Spore
- Heart Swap
- Baton Pass/Skill Swap
If you replace shedinja, I don't feel your team would really need the spin support too much, so i only slashed in rapid spin... if you choose to go with whirlwind in the top spot id advise running skill swap over baton pass, as now you aren't vulnerable to bulky set up sweepers continuing to set up as you can phaze them out, and skill swap lets you beat magic bouncers and be annoying with sporephazing.
Especially becuase youre only running one magic bouncer, i do think magic coat is your best option for the first slot though

Aeongate · Dec 3rd, 2012, 6:33:24 PM

Thanks for the advice - I've actually mixed around things a lot though, and I've been experimenting with some weird stuff, including the ridiculous Assist Prankster Kyurem-B team. However, I wanted to come up with a sweeper that had an answer to pretty much anything the opponent could do to stop it, and be near unstoppable with paramount prediction. It should stop the following:

Imposter Chansey/Blissey
Unaware Heart Swap
Prankster Heart Swap
Prankster Spore

So far, the best way to counter Imposter seems to be using Spooky Plate + Judgment. Substitute comes a close second though. Unaware Heat Swap can be stopped either by outright KO (unlikely) or Taunt. Prankster Heart Swap (usually Giratina or Groudon) is as simple as running Punishment, provided you don't give your Poke any defence boosts. Prankster Spore looses to Magic Bounce/Coat, or a Sub you had previously.

I can't seem to find a way to build an effective sweeper that can counter all those. What do you all suggest I prioritise?

Nov 23rd, 2012, 5:37:14 PM	#851
Champion Steve Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 77	Thought I'd post my team and see what you guys think of it. It peaked at the top of the ladder though I'll attribute that to nobody with a high score being on at the time. Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash Trait: Magic Bounce EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 248 Spd Bold Nature - Stealth Rock - Quiver Dance - Baton Pass - Magic Coat My lead, it Quiver Dances on the first turn while I scout the enemy's ability and then either sets up rocks or baton pass to Palkia on the second turn. Speed is so I have the advantage if we both use switching moves. Palkia @ Draco Plate Trait: Prankster EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd Naive Nature - Water Spout - Judgment - Recover - Copycat Used to be a Reshiram, but Palkia has less trouble with those annoying Flash Fire Steels. Strategy is simple: use Water Spout then Copycat it for priority. This sets claim to fame is that it very reliably defeats Imposter Chansey. Slaking @ Lum Berry Trait: Illusion EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd Jolly Nature - ExtremeSpeed - Crunch - Drain Punch - Belly Drum Classic set: pretend to be Shedinja, Belly Drum on the switch. These three moves OHKO most things at +6 and Illusion blocks Imposter. The only thing it struggles with are Unaware mons and Shedinja so these must be softened up beforehand. Giratina @ Leftovers Trait: Turboblaze EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd Timid Nature - Dragon Tail - Rapid Spin - Whirlwind - Magic Coat This set is designed to easily counter Shedinja with its immunity to Endeavor and can also phaze most bulky set-up sweepers. Turboblaze is to prey on noobs who don't pay close attention to the log. Also it sounds cooler. Chansey (F) @ Eviolite Trait: Imposter EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd Bold Nature - Heart Swap - Substitute - Magic Coat - Baton Pass The Imposter Chansey set we know and love. Shedinja @ Lum Berry Trait: Sturdy EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd Jolly Nature - Endeavor - Ice Shard - Safeguard - Rain Dance A lot of Sand teams rely on their weather to deal with Sturdinja so if it has been removed, Shedinja can come in after a kill and proceed to be invulnerable again. It also provides a nice Illusion for Slaking. I'm interested in your thoughts. Last edited by Champion Steve; Nov 23rd, 2012 at 5:48:45 PM.

Nov 25th, 2012, 12:40:50 AM	#852
Uselesscrab Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 30	Hey, I'm new. I just started a few days ago on PS and I've been mostly playing BH. I have a few different teams. I may have battled some of the posters in the thread. I've had a lot of success with a few things: • Using Magic Coat on my lead Shedinja to start the battle. It often messes up opponents. • The Normalize Gengar set with Skill Swap. I also use Switcheroo and Heart Swap to mess up opponents. • Some obvious ones: Prankster Groudon, Contrary Specs Reshiram, No Guard Rayquaza, SimpleGlow Mewtwo, etc. Also, based on a message I saw in chat, I made a Balanced Hackmons team using no Ubers. It's sort of rain-based; I use Drizzle Light Ball Pikachu, lol. As far as your team, Champion Steve, I like it. Rain Dance Shedinja is a nice touch, and that Slaking gets me every time. Why is your Palkia Prankster, though? Last edited by Uselesscrab; Nov 25th, 2012 at 12:42:26 AM. Reason: Added some more.

Nov 25th, 2012, 11:11:45 AM	#854
Champion Steve Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 77	Those are good suggestions and the Palkia is the part of the team that is least finished - not long ago it was a Reshiram with a similar set and before that it was a Contrary Kyurem-B. To explain my reasoning though: the set is meant to be the receiver of a baton pass from my Deoxys - if it was to use Tail Glow then an imposter could 2HKO it with Judgement meaning I would have to rely on annoying speed ties. The Surf/Hydro Pump/Water Spout choice is a difficult one - Hydro Pump isn't completely accurate and Surf is weaker than Judgement in most occasions. Still, Water Spout needs Recover if you want any kind of back-up plan so idk. This set is kinda experimental anyway so there I'm unsure what the optimal options are. Last edited by Champion Steve; Nov 25th, 2012 at 11:31:59 AM.

Nov 26th, 2012, 4:56:23 PM	#859
Imanalt RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,351 VT, USA	the problem with sap sipper over magic bounce on that is that magic bounce means you are hard to phaze, especially since ttar is bulky enough to be able to have its subs survive most dragon tails __________________ ASB profile zfs: we are the knights who say nidoking http://pastebin.com/FrNB3Vg3 21:15 Cathy GreatSage is a known spammer

Nov 29th, 2012, 6:28:49 PM	#860
Keldeo DeArtagnan Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 14	Here's a set I use sometimes that's a little gimmicky but it can work: Kyurem-Black Ability: Prankster Sleep Talk Outrage Copycat Dragon Tail Since everyone's using Spore all the time, why not make it work for you? Once you're put to sleep you can fire off +1 Outrage and Dragon Tail. I'd use Rest except I got really ticked off every time sleep talk called up Rest. The only problem is waking up too early, but you can also Copycat your outrages too. If I remember correctly, if your last move was sleep talk, Copycat will copy whatever Sleep Talk used, not Sleep Talk itself. The only problem it that it's pretty hard to stop once it gets going, which makes it all that more dangerous when Imposter Blissey switches in, and you're out of luck because I can't think of much that shuts it down completely other than Shedinja or Ferrothorn. __________________ Pokemon Showdown screen name: galaspark

Nov 25th, 2012, 1:10:11 AM	#853
tehy Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,153	As he states, it's so he can copycat his own water spout, which is helpful, since it then becomes hugely powerful and priority. I have to ask, though-why not just tail glow>recover, and surf/hydro pump>water spout? That way, you can sweep with +3 prankster STAB water moves, which still gives you plenty of power, and of course you've still got dragon plate boosted judgement. I understand that your set requires no setup, but i feel like STAB water spout and dragon plate judgement, as great as they are, aren't powerful enough to sweep with no boosts? (I guess you could run QD with recover, water spout, and dragon plate judgement, too.)

Nov 25th, 2012, 7:45:01 PM	#857
Uselesscrab Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 30	Yeah, but people don't expect it, and you can switch in to a free attack boost. I do agree that Magic Bounce is better, though.

Nov 26th, 2012, 2:06:19 PM	#858
The_Eevee_General Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 81 Porygon Oregon	I've used Sap Sipper on a Sub+Swords Dance Tyranitar in sand. I'm constantly hemming and hawing between Sucker Punch and Crunch, though. I know Swords Dance and Sap Sipper come across as redundant, but getting a free sub and attack boost on the same turn is pretty nice. Plus, special Contrarymons will usually blast it with Leaf Storm, which again activates Sap Sipper. Totally ruined by Mold Breaker, but what isn't?

Nov 30th, 2012, 12:18:38 AM	#861
Uselesscrab Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 30	That's pretty nice. I haven't seen that particular set before, but it seems relatively useful. What item do you use? This made me want to look for more moves that I could exploit with Prankster besides Nature Power, Heart Swap, Copycat, and status ailment moves, and I didn't find much. Prankster Minimize seemed nice though. It could possibly put a halt to a sweep at some point in time.

Nov 30th, 2012, 11:48:50 AM	#862
Champion Steve Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 77	A single Minimize is kind of a risky way to stop a sweep. If you were going to use Prankster to stop it then you would be as well using Heart Swap or Spore. Minimize mons are really planning to stick around for a while anyway so Simple or something that blocks status such as Magic Bounce or Poison Heal is probably more effective than priority stat boosts. PS. Don't use a Minimize mon with Poison Heal please. I'm begging you here.

Nov 30th, 2012, 3:09:13 PM	#863
Arcticblast is going goat Moderator Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,964 #serperiors Mentor	itt we learn that Champion Steve has yet to master the art of Skill Swap Skill Swap is actually a great move on Pokemon whose abilities affect the entire field (in Singles). This includes auto-weather abilities, No Guard, Cloud Nine and Damp. Other abilities are nice to Skill Swap as well - Simple (versus Contrary 'mons), Normalize, Defeatist, etc. ~~By the way, I'm trying out Trick Room soon. Come at me.~~ Never mind __________________ New to Smogon? Afraid to jump into discussion? Introduce yourself! ------------------- Fail Cup \| Scramble! \| RMTs: Blistering Sands (BH) Night Stall (OU) \| The Fringe Tournament \| ARcTicblast \| Other Metagames Premier League \| avatar by raikou00, signature art by Zracknel additional credit to Pocket and AccidentalGreed Last edited by Arcticblast; Nov 30th, 2012 at 4:56:48 PM.

Nov 30th, 2012, 11:49:10 PM	#865
Uselesscrab Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 30	Yeah, I really like using Normalize Gengar, although I suppose Giratina would work too.

Dec 1st, 2012, 12:47:00 AM	#867
Uselesscrab Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 30	A few sets: Ajnidehs (Gengar) @ Armor Fossil Trait: Normalize Shiny: Yes EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd Timid Nature - Skill Swap - Switcheroo - Heart Swap - Shadow Ball The idea is to Skill Swap onto a powerful sweeper and force a switch. Also, the Switcheroo can cripple an opponent as well. I've found Heart Swap useful too as an alternative method, and Shadow Ball is for Lugia, mostly. Yummy (Swampert) @ Lum Berry Trait: Sap Sipper Shiny: Yes EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd Adamant Nature - Toxic - Bulk Up - Aqua Tail - Earthquake My Sap Sipper Swampert. I know it isn't very good as far as moves are concerned, or stats for that matter, but it throws opponents off and thrives in a rain situation. I use it on a team based on Drizzle. Give me suggestions if you have any. @lokt: Why the Iron Ball on Dialga? Just for slowness? The Lagging Tail does the same thing and doesn't have other side effects.

Dec 1st, 2012, 1:51:21 AM	#868
tehy Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,153	The main problem with both above sets is that, without prankster, gengar can't outspeed speed-boosting sweepers, which means that heart swap and skill swap are mostly pointless. You're basically stopping slow, bulky sweepers, but with only one attack move, you're probably not able to sweep with those boosts. Also, armor fossil trick? Why not just run knock off at that point? Why not just give him choice scarf? Suddenly, you can actually outspeed some sweepers, and trick becomes legitimately threatening, in the right situation. Also consider totally scrapping that set. As for the swampert:First, coil over bulk up. Never hurts to have a 100% accurate aqua tail, and it can combat the odd evasion booster. Secondly, i'd take toxic out entirely, and maybe replace it with recover/amnesia/substitute/baton pass. Recover stops the enemy from beating you through attrition, while amnesia gives you a weapon against special attackers. Substitute blocks imposter and trick. If you feel an unaware pokemon or a prankster heart swap pokemon coming in,baton pass to something that can deal with them better. Or just give another sweeper boosts.. Finally, i'd recommend ice punch over aqua tail. The immediate power of aqua tail is nice, but there's very little you wouldn't hit with earthquake that you'd rather hit with aqua tail. Ice punch can let you actually damage things like contrary latios. Edit: Aqua tail doesn't hit reshiram harder than earthquake, because dragon resists water, but not ground. Any target not covered by earthquake is going to be covered by ice punch (or, come to think of it, icicle crash.) It's not that big a deal if you've got rain up, but if you don't, it could be a problem. As for those other moves, there's no real reason to use them instead of earthquake, except for a couple SE targets, so that's why. The problem with toxic orb is that it confers an immunity to spore, but if you're fine with that... it works, i guess. Although then you could just use toxic. Last edited by tehy; Dec 1st, 2012 at 2:29:31 PM.

Dec 1st, 2012, 12:40:48 PM	#870
Uselesscrab Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 30	I wasn't thinking about Coil, so that's a good point. Aqua Tail is mostly there because I'm often using it in rain, but why wouldn't I use something with higher base power over Ice Punch? Ice Punch doesn't hit Contrary Reshiram for super effective damage, or either Kyurem form for that matter. I don't see why I would use that over Coil + Bolt Strike/Hi Jump Kick/Megahorn/Stone Edge. (Just throwing out moves that are really powerful with slightly bad accuracy) Gengar: Yeah, I changed it to Toxic Orb yesterday even before I read these posts. Choice Scarf is a good idea, though. Thanks for all your suggestions.

Dec 2nd, 2012, 7:32:02 PM	#871
Aeongate Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 13 Darkness Eternal	I literally made an account just so I could post here. I absolutely love this tier! You'd think it would be less diverse than the others, but in reality any Poke can run any set - even Shedinja, the most one-dimensional Pokemon ever, it seems, has some variety. Here's my current team: ... Deoxys-Speed @ Lum Berry Trait: Mold Breaker Timid Nature - Imprison - Magic Coat - Spore - Stealth Rock/Spikes Generic Deoxys-S lead is generic, other than Imprison which is a nasty surprise to those hoping to Magic Coat my hazards or my Spore. Can't decide which hazard is best, but SR seems most common so I'll stick with that for Imprison's sake. This set commonly looses to Taunt Prankster Deoxys-S, as the first move I go for is Imprison, but otherwise it works a total charm. Gengar @ Spooky Plate Trait: Normalize Timid Nature - Skill Swap - Judgment - Aura Sphere - Shell Smash This is one heck of a sweeper. Nobody expects Normalize, and many confused opponents will stay in and switch up moves, assuming that I'm an Illusion of some kind. With just two turns of set-up, it wrecks any team not carrying something with Shadow Sneak, and Skill Swap almost always guarantees that you'll get one. Dialga @ Leftovers Trait: Magic Bounce Timid Nature - Quiver Dance - Substitute - Recover - Dragon Pulse Provided Blissey/Chansey doesn't switch in before you get a Sub up, Dialga wrecks face - slowly but surely boosting with QDs and healing up again with Recover. Blissey @ Choice Scarf Trait: Imposter Bold Nature - Perish Song - Heart Swap - Whirlwind - Final Gambit Standard Imposter Blissey. I like Scarf because I can rape Belly Drum Slaking with it, provided it isn't an Illusion. Giratina @ Toxic Orb Trait: Poison Heal Timid Nature - Rapid Spin - Toxic - Whirlwind - Shadow Ball The bulkiest of the bulky within the tier, sans Blissey and Chansey, and Poison Heal with Toxic Orb means you stick around even longer, plus you're immune to Spore. This means you have plenty of time to Spin hazards and Toxic anything bulky - even if they have Magic Bounce, nothing lost other than the turn. Shedinja @ Lum Berry Trait: Sturdy Lonely Nature - Endeavor - Ice Shard - Safeguard - Rain Dance And there was me, suggesting this guy was versatile. Oh well. Pretty funny when you killed their last Poke with Toxic and you can just Endeavor/Shard all the things. I'm still very new to this tier, so some help with my team would be greatly appreciated.

Dec 2nd, 2012, 11:18:46 PM	#872
Toraen Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 32	Try out Psycho Shift over Toxic on your Giratina, as it goes through Magic Bounce, although you'll sacrifice a turn of Poison Heal recovery.

Dec 3rd, 2012, 4:46:22 AM	#873
Champion Steve Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 77	Just want to say that Blissey will live a +6 Slaking Extreme Speed and OHKO back if you lose the speed-tie. If you go for Chansey then it takes just a little over 50% damage while also being insanely bulky in general. The only time I can see Scarf mattering is if your Blissey is low on health or against one of the Kyurems.

Dec 3rd, 2012, 9:42:36 AM	#874
Imanalt RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,351 VT, USA	First of all, even though sturdinja is mah babbeh, i just don't think it is particularly good in the current metagame, because all reasonable teams have multiple ways of easily dealing with it, so i would recommend another mon of your choice in that slot. (if you dont change it, use magic coat > safeguard on it) Next seconding eviolite chansey over scarf blissey, however this leaves you weak to very fast and strong set up sweepers who win the speed tie against you. Because of this i would recommend switching your giratina set to a prankster set to stop these sweepers. Set: Giratina @ lum berry/leftovers Trait: Prankster Bold Nature - Magic coat/Substitute/Whirlwind/Rapid Spin - Spore - Heart Swap - Baton Pass/Skill Swap If you replace shedinja, I don't feel your team would really need the spin support too much, so i only slashed in rapid spin... if you choose to go with whirlwind in the top spot id advise running skill swap over baton pass, as now you aren't vulnerable to bulky set up sweepers continuing to set up as you can phaze them out, and skill swap lets you beat magic bouncers and be annoying with sporephazing. Especially becuase youre only running one magic bouncer, i do think magic coat is your best option for the first slot though __________________ ASB profile zfs: we are the knights who say nidoking http://pastebin.com/FrNB3Vg3 21:15 Cathy GreatSage is a known spammer

Dec 3rd, 2012, 6:33:24 PM	#875
Aeongate Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 13 Darkness Eternal	Thanks for the advice - I've actually mixed around things a lot though, and I've been experimenting with some weird stuff, including the ridiculous Assist Prankster Kyurem-B team. However, I wanted to come up with a sweeper that had an answer to pretty much anything the opponent could do to stop it, and be near unstoppable with paramount prediction. It should stop the following: Imposter Chansey/Blissey Unaware Heart Swap Prankster Heart Swap Prankster Spore So far, the best way to counter Imposter seems to be using Spooky Plate + Judgment. Substitute comes a close second though. Unaware Heat Swap can be stopped either by outright KO (unlikely) or Taunt. Prankster Heart Swap (usually Giratina or Groudon) is as simple as running Punishment, provided you don't give your Poke any defence boosts. Prankster Spore looses to Magic Bounce/Coat, or a Sub you had previously. I can't seem to find a way to build an effective sweeper that can counter all those. What do you all suggest I prioritise? Last edited by Aeongate; Dec 4th, 2012 at 1:29:49 PM.