The OU Viability Ranking thread

[BlankZero]

I see Dugtrio dropping a bit, Scizor/Ferrothorn/Forretress rising (No more scarfGene) and a rise in Chomp/Mence/Lando. I'd almost see Lando going up to S class if not for Mamo, who I also see rising.

Gene going Uber is a great thing. I never saw it as broken, but it made team building not fun when you're putting your Ferrothorn's SpD IVs down to 26 to give Gene an Attack boost :/

[Sacaen]

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

I don't think it was ever Genesect's fault Haxorus is C tier. Haxorus is almost completely outclassed by Kyurem-B, stealth rock weakness be damned. Cube is stronger, has an excellent ability to go mixed, and if you invest your EV's properly, he's very bulky too. They both spam absurdly powerful Outrages and they're both easily revenge killed afterwards, but Haxorus is weaker and less versatile. I say keep Haxorus C tier.

Even though Kyurem-B can go mixed, I'd still say Haxorus is more versatile being able to swords dance, dragon dance, and taunt, or go choiced, along with access to Superpower, and mold breaker EQ. Kyurem-B is undoubtedly strong, but I've yet to see it tear such gaping holes in teams as a properly set up haxorus can, even against teams that are properly prepared for those strong outrages.

[RaikouLover]

Scizor should have always been A-Rank. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist or a Genesect ban to figure that out.

I also started liking SD Luke lately... this ban makes it all the sweeter. Hint: Use Bullet Punch

[emirinho]

I have a couple of changes to suggest:

First of all, i cant understand why is scizor rank B. Scizor is #5 in usage. It has only 1 weakness and it takes care of many offensive and defensive Pokemon. Scizor can also be very hard to take down in rain. Another thing is that Scizor has many very efficient sets so one can not fully predict a scizor. Now, that Genesect is banned Scizor should definitely go to rank A. I would think that it should have been rank A even when Genesect was OU.

Another thing that i dont like is that Kyurem is rank B. Kyurem is not used at all these days. He is weak to SR very bad defensive types and movepool. In my opinion he barely deserves C. As we see pokemon such as Haxorus and Infernape unfairly being thrown in rank C Kyurem is in rank B even though he has only 1 viable set which is easily countered by a big portion of the ou metagame.
I think that Kyurem should be sent to rank C while Haxorus and possibly Infernape should be sent to rank B

Another point is Slowbro and Gastrodon. Slowbro is such an amazing Defensive wall. Its usage has increased a little recently. Slowbro has the capability to completely counter any physical pokemon that doesnt pack a stab super effective move against it. Slowbro is one of the rare pokemon that can counter Terrakion completely. Slowbro has the great ability Regenerator which doesnt force the user to recover health before switching which is an incredibly useful thing. Slowbro should definitely be rank B
Now, a great Pokemon such as Slowbro is in rank C while a Pokemon whose usage has dramatically decreased (Gastrodon) still is in rank B. Gastrodon came from NU to OU just because of Jirachi and Rotom-W. But now that these are easily countered, rarely anyone uses Gastrodon anymore. Its stats are simply not for rank B.

To conclude:
-Scizor rank A
-Kyurem rank C
-Haxorus and infernape rank B
-Slowbro rank B
-Gastrodon rank C

[morningsun]

I second Scizor for A tier.

[Remedy]

I don't see why Kyurem would have only one viable set.
I don't see why Haxxorus should be B when we know how slow it is and easily revenge killed. I don't see why he goes up when Kyurem would go down.

Infernape in B rank is really not logical, he's badly behind anything already in the B rank. I think Gastrodon in B is "ok", and you shouldn't bring this usage argument everywhere.
Slowbro is fine, but for B, I think you should give more reasons. And he doesn't "counter" Terrakion at all.
Your arguments aren't really relevant most of the time

For instance : "Slowbro has the capability to completely counter any physical pokemon that doesnt pack a stab super effective move against it". It is the case for any wall, it's seriously not a reason to up it. After all, Defensive Scizor walls any physical ... against it aswell no? Just to say that a wall who can take hits from what he's supposed to wall isn't that amazing, and while I'd be interested to hear arguments for Slowbro in B, you're not making it relevant enough.

Ahm and, when you claim something like "Jirachi is easily countered" you better explain this a little, this is far from being "obvious". You can take it as a granted statement.
In fact this is far from being true, and I dare you to tell any "Jirachi's counter" (ofc there are walls but who cares about walls when you can Wish, SR, Screens, U-Turn etc.).

[Gary2346]

Seconding Scizor for A. I feel like his speed is the only factor in keeping him from going A rank, which honestly I don't feel is a good enough reason. He has access to priority Bullet Punch which combined with a STAB Technician Choice Banded boost, it can be one of the most effective revenge killing moves in the game. I've had a team late game be swept alone with Bullet Punch, and combined with entry hazards Scizor is just so devastating. STAB U-Turn shuts down Reuniclus who is MUCH more of a threat with Gene gone and should most likely see a great rise in usage. It's also a move that nothing really wants to switch into due to it's insane power. It's also a very effective Pursuit trapper, and can be a great counter to the pink blobs with Superpower. All of Scizor's moves are so devastating, and combined with his decent bulk and raw power he's always something everyone keeps in mind when building a team.

[emirinho]

Originally Posted by Fat Remedy

I don't see why Kyurem would have only one viable set.
I don't see why Haxxorus should be B when we know how slow it is and easily revenge killed. I don't see why he goes up when Kyurem would go down.

Infernape in B rank is really not logical, he's badly behind anything already in the B rank. I think Gastrodon in B is "ok", and you shouldn't bring this usage argument everywhere.
Slowbro is fine, but for B, I think you should give more reasons. And he doesn't "counter" Terrakion at all.
Your arguments aren't really relevant most of the time

For instance : "Slowbro has the capability to completely counter any physical pokemon that doesnt pack a stab super effective move against it". It is the case for any wall, it's seriously not a reason to up it. After all, Defensive Scizor walls any physical ... against it aswell no? Just to say that a wall who can take hits from what he's supposed to wall isn't that amazing, and while I'd be interested to hear arguments for Slowbro in B, you're not making it relevant enough.

You are talking about relevant arguments and you say that gastrodon is ok in B.
Anyways let me explain you why should Slowbro be in rank B in detail:
Everyone knows that Slowbro packs incredible bulk. He can take on many physical attackers and then successfully regain health or cripple with T-wave or Toxic. You say that Slowbro doesnt counter Terrakion well it takes only 40% from CB X-Scissor. It can easily Slack-off the damage. Now lets take some other Pokemon into account. For instance gyarados. +2 Gyarados can not take out Slowbro while slowbro can simply t-wave and recover its health by Slack-off. I simply dont want to give any further arguments. Every reasonable person knows what i am talking about.

Also, you are saying that Haxorus is slow, well there are many other slow pokemon but after +1 it could be gg. Haxorus is better than Kyurem in every single aspect

[StarmanXL]

Originally Posted by Fat emirinho

I simply dont want to give any further arguments. Every reasonable person knows what i am talking about.

For the record, I'm not entirely sure.

I will point out, though, Regenerator is a very nice ability that makes Slowbro and Slowking harder to kill. I personally haven't seen too many of each, though, so they could be a bit niche, although I doubt rain teams are gonna slow up anytime soon.

[evillocke]

Originally Posted by Fat Tabuu

Ouch. That hurt. Heatran was only good for countering Genesect? I disagree my friend. Heatran had quite the usage statistics before the introduction to Genesect. In the August statistics, Heatran was in fact ranked 5th. After the introduction to Genesect he actually fell down to 6th (not huge but still).
Heatran ,over the generations, has given itself a very good title and has solidified itself well into B2W2 OU, despite all the new Pokemon. For starters, Heatran was blessed with an amazing typing, a great ability, a versatile movepool, a plethora of ways that it could be used, and it was granted the unique fact that it is so easy to throw in Heatran (synergistically speaking). Heatran is part Steel a beautiful typing in terms of defense. Unlike many other Steels, Heatran was given quite a viable alternate STAB. With Fire Blast STAB, or Lava Plume or even Magma Storm, it was granted the ability to roast other Steel types, Grass Types, Ice Types and Bug Types. But there's more. Heatran has Flash Fire. It grants him a beautiful immunity allowing him to check a great number of Pokemon. Heatran has also gained the title of being a problem for Sun teams. Their Fire moves will only benefit Heatran, and with a respectable base Sp.Attk along with Sun+Flash Fire+STAB, Heatran will be doing massive damage to Sun teams. Heatran was not only used for Genesect. Heatran ended up being a pretty decent check to Tornadus-Therian, if it was in a range where Superpower or Focus Blast wouldn't kill. Heatran also gave trouble to Jirachi, Venusaur (w/o EQ), Dragonite (if it hasn't boosted or carries FP), Latios, Latias, so forth. Heatran also has the great ability for being able to trap other weather inducers. I could keep on going and going, but Heatran really is a great Pokemon, that has much more use than checking Genesect.
Dugtrio won't drop much either, if at all. Dugtrio is used to trap and kill other weather inducers along with other troublesome Pokemon. The fact that Heatran will not drop after Genesect is gone, disproves your argument of Dugtrio falling because would fall.
Just understand that Heatran was, is and will be for quite some time, a solid Pokemon in the OU tier.

i never said heatran was not good.

[Anikrahman1995]

Another thing that i dont like is that Kyurem is rank B. Kyurem is not used at all these days. He is weak to SR very bad defensive types and movepool. In my opinion he barely deserves C. As we see pokemon such as Haxorus and Infernape unfairly being thrown in rank C Kyurem is in rank B even though he has only 1 viable set which is easily countered by a big portion of the ou metagame.

This is completely wrong. I was the one who nominated Kyurem for B tier along with Pricess Brii and .....(I forgot). Go back a few pages and find my reasonings for it. I do not feel like repeating myself. Anyways, whose fault is it that Kyurem is not used? It is actually the playerbase's mentality - "Hey, I heard Kyurem is in BL; it sucks! I will not use it and I refuse to try using it ever!" Kyurem's low usage stems from its initial mediocriy. Alot of people arent even aware of the addition of Earth Power and Roost to its movepool. I would actually say that Kyurem is better than Haxorus. Which viable set are you talking about? The subroost set? OK. I hope you can find a counter to it because I couldnt. Just dont bring up Jirachi and Blissey. The former is 2hkoed by Earth Power and the latter is PP stalled. What do you mean by bad movepool? What move does it not have that would otherwise help it beat something it cannot already? It can also use a life orb attacker set with Draco Meteor/Ice Beam/Earth Power and Focus Blast. Only Blissey and Chansey can wall this set. Kyurem also has an Ice-neutrality. Anyway, I feel like I am ranting. I will just leave these following replays:
Watch them if you want to; I am not forcing you.

...

---

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2452599 - alexwolf agrees that Kyurem is awesome
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2458104 - vs ganj4lf. It stalled out starmie after being burned witout leftovers!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2565494 - Kyurem annoys stall.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2552155 - Kyurem leads vs sun team and proceeds to pressure the opposition.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2717893 - Kyurem destroys sand balance
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2846990 - LO Kyurem beats GeneHail
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oususpecttest3026885 - Kyurem vs Kyurem-B....vs Taylor. I would have won this if I had known that his Genesect was modest.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oususpecttest3217945 - Jirachi's Ice Punch does not freeze once in four attempts. vs Rain. Kyurem MVP vs Nachos. Excuse me swearing. I was angry because I got haxed in three consecutive matches before that.

EDIT: The replay are a bit meesed up for some odd reason. Just follow the actual links. Dont click on the descriptions; they all lead to the same match.

Haxorus is better than Kyurem in every single aspect

NO it is not! Haxorus doesnt have Kyurem's bulk and recovery or pressure.

[FaceFaceFace]

Wow I did not realise Scizor was rank B until now. Scizor is definitely A.

CBzor is still a very good check to non-steel members on offensive teams, and the ability to trap Lati@s/ Gengar is huge, especially with Deoxys-D/Gengar everywhere.

I've also been using SDzor as a late game sweeper, and as long as all fire/water types are weakened/ gone, Pinchy Bug Man absolutely rapes face.

[The Silent Storm]

So...

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Move Terrakion to A Rank.
Ok, we know Terrakion has a great coverage, excellent speed, ability to bring down by itself some of his worst nemesis like Gliscor, but what are Terrakion flaws?
Weakness to priority, now that Genesect is banned Scizor will once again rise and take it's older position, Breloom is also a terrible problem, and by no means something that should be left unchecked, so exactly, how those flaws are mitigated? You just have to hope Terrakion attacks Scizor or Breloom in the switch in or use Substitute, but in the long run, Scizor and Breloom are troublesome for him, so yeah, this alone makes Terrakion ''not that good'' and I mean, terrakion is good, very good but by no means S Rank.

Also, I would like to propose Jirachi for S Rank.

Yes, you heard that right, Jirachi.
Think about it, Jirachi is perhaps the most unpredictable 'mon in the game, ''sure this Jirachi has Leftovers, it has to be Special Defense, well I'll just send Ferrothorn, in order to set up hazards...'' Ops, too bad it's sub cm and here's gonna make your days a hell lot worse.
''Uhm, so this Jirachi has no Leftovers, it's choice scarf, no doubt'' after you said that you find out that in reality it's just a MixRachi with Thunderbolt/Thunder, so that your Skarmory is easily killed.
Now that Genesect is banned Jirachi is most definitely the scarfed that can patch up Genesect void better than anyone else, Rachi also got trick and better bulkyness (in exchange, the attack is a bit less). Let's not forget that Jirachi is also a fantastic Stealth Rock user.
Probably Jirachi isn't a powerhouse like say... Terrakion or Salamence but Jirachi can surely perform multiple roles effectively, like say, Special Defense, a great glue for many teams, Sub Calm Mind, the worst opponent you would like to face, Wish Calm Mind, a bit less used but completely shits on all Hippowdown- less or Gastrodon- less stall teams in the long run, choice scarf which is also a great glue usable in all kind of teams and MixRachi or whatever you want to call him (superachi?) who acts as a great lurer.
Jirachi flaws? they aren't very much, other than making someone rage at paraflinch, or Dugtrio

[ginganinja]

Just pointing out that you listed a single flaw Terrakion has. If you want to move it down from S rank, you might need more the one negative, especially as its well known that Terrakion has counters / checks (as do most pokemon in S rank) but regardless, its such a goddamn threat in this metagame its top tier despite being weak to Scizor and Breloom.

Using your own arguement I could claim that Politoed is only A rank for example due to it being weak to Breloom, or Deoxys-D should be A rank because it is weak to Tar / Scizor etc etc. Basically, just because a pokemon is weak to x doesn't always mean that its not suspect material.

Jirachi isn't really S rank, as while its undoubtedly a top tier pokemon, it does suffer a little from 4MSS, as well as not being massively difficult to check. Sure, its unpredictable, and it lucks the shit outta you, but you can usually make an estimate as to what what set it is running, due to having access to Team Preview and scouting during he course of that match. Personally, on the ladder newer players tend to struggle against it (or sometimes newly built teams) so perhapes I can understand why you hype Sub CM as such a threat, but IMO its not quite S Rank.

[Rayquaza_]

Originally Posted by Fat emirinho

Another thing that i dont like is that Kyurem is rank B. Kyurem is not used at all these days. He is weak to SR very bad defensive types and movepool. In my opinion he barely deserves C. As we see pokemon such as Haxorus and Infernape unfairly being thrown in rank C Kyurem is in rank B even though he has only 1 viable set which is easily countered by a big portion of the ou metagame.
I think that Kyurem should be sent to rank C while Haxorus and possibly Infernape should be sent to rank B

For starters, low usage is not a valid argument, especially on a pokemon that is mutually exclusive with another one (Kyurem-B) on the same team.

Kyurem has two very valid sets (that Kyurem-B doesn't outclass) with radically different counters: Specs and SubRoost.
Both require minimal support (just Rapid Spin - incidentally Kyurem has great sinergy with Starmie since they cover most of their weaknesses each other) and both are highly effective thanks to its high offense stats, decent bulk and excellent coverage.
The SubRoost set is particularly vicious and it's not easily countered since it's extremely easy to PP stall Stone Edges, Draco Meteors and Close Combats with Pressure.
Breloom can't switch on it at all and Scizor doesn't enjoy Earth Power coming from 130 Sp.Atk.
The Specs set doesn't require Hail support to be effective, but when it's available Kyurem is a complete monster with its Blizspam, something no other dragon in OU can emulate.

Kyurem fits the description of a B-rank pokemon perfectly, and I doubt it's going to get any lower than that.

[DarkBlazeR]

I think it now seems appropriate that Tornadus-T should be in S-rank. With Genesect out of the way, it has lost one of its most popular checks, plus sun teams have taken quite a big hit with the loss of one of their most useful teammates. The usage statistics of the recent Suspect ladder show Tornadus-T is one of the most dominant threats in a Genesectless OU metagame, so I really don't see any reason why it isn't S-rank already, especially when it's basically the sole reason people even bother to specifically pack at least one bulky Flying resistance on every team.

[Remedy]

Originally Posted by Fat emirinho

You are talking about relevant arguments and you say that gastrodon is ok in B.
Anyways let me explain you why should Slowbro be in rank B in detail:
Everyone knows that Slowbro packs incredible bulk. He can take on many physical attackers and then successfully regain health or cripple with T-wave or Toxic. You say that Slowbro doesnt counter Terrakion well it takes only 40% from CB X-Scissor. It can easily Slack-off the damage. Now lets take some other Pokemon into account. For instance gyarados. +2 Gyarados can not take out Slowbro while slowbro can simply t-wave and recover its health by Slack-off. I simply dont want to give any further arguments. Every reasonable person knows what i am talking about.

Also, you are saying that Haxorus is slow, well there are many other slow pokemon but after +1 it could be gg. Haxorus is better than Kyurem in every single aspect

Some people answered anyway, but I wanted to make something clear :

First I don't need to tell arguments for Gastrodon. You need to convince us to move it, not the contrary. Check the thread else, there are things that have been said and I don't feel like repeating it.

"252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) X-Scissor vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Slowbro (+Def): 44% - 52% (176 - 208 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Slowbro (+Def): 41% - 49% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO."

A counter that is 2HKO on the switch with SR?
Yes there is a big difference between your "40%" and a 44-52.
And anyway even Stone Edge looks threatening. So no it is not a "counter" at all. A counter isn't supposed to lose a 1V1 after a switch.

Any reasonable person can read a damage calculator. I'm not even against Slowbro in B, but well..


Supporting Scizor in A also.
Not thinking Tornadus-T is S worthy given that Rain is pretty needed, I don't like the idea of putting in S a weather pokemon (but under Rain, no doubt it's S).
Supporting Jirachi in S, while ginganinja say many relevant things, when I think the versatility and the ability to go different routes should be more valuated in the ranking. And Jirachi is maybe the best pokemon right now for that.

[Stone RG]

Originally Posted by Fat The Silent Storm

So...

Move Terrakion to A Rank.
Ok, we know Terrakion has a great coverage, excellent speed, ability to bring down by itself some of his worst nemesis like Gliscor, but what are Terrakion flaws?
Weakness to priority, now that Genesect is banned Scizor will once again rise and take it's older position, Breloom is also a terrible problem, and by no means something that should be left unchecked, so exactly, how those flaws are mitigated? You just have to hope Terrakion attacks Scizor or Breloom in the switch in or use Substitute, but in the long run, Scizor and Breloom are troublesome for him, so yeah, this alone makes Terrakion ''not that good'' and I mean, terrakion is good, very good but by no means S Rank.

Also, I would like to propose Jirachi for S Rank.

Yes, you heard that right, Jirachi.
Think about it, Jirachi is perhaps the most unpredictable 'mon in the game, ''sure this Jirachi has Leftovers, it has to be Special Defense, well I'll just send Ferrothorn, in order to set up hazards...'' Ops, too bad it's sub cm and here's gonna make your days a hell lot worse.
''Uhm, so this Jirachi has no Leftovers, it's choice scarf, no doubt'' after you said that you find out that in reality it's just a MixRachi with Thunderbolt/Thunder, so that your Skarmory is easily killed.
Now that Genesect is banned Jirachi is most definitely the scarfed that can patch up Genesect void better than anyone else, Rachi also got trick and better bulkyness (in exchange, the attack is a bit less). Let's not forget that Jirachi is also a fantastic Stealth Rock user.
Probably Jirachi isn't a powerhouse like say... Terrakion or Salamence but Jirachi can surely perform multiple roles effectively, like say, Special Defense, a great glue for many teams, Sub Calm Mind, the worst opponent you would like to face, Wish Calm Mind, a bit less used but completely shits on all Hippowdown- less or Gastrodon- less stall teams in the long run, choice scarf which is also a great glue usable in all kind of teams and MixRachi or whatever you want to call him (superachi?) who acts as a great lurer.
Jirachi flaws? they aren't very much, other than making someone rage at paraflinch, or Dugtrio

lie ginga did, an S rank poke may have some flaws, but usually its pros outmatch its cons by a large margin, and thats Terrakion's case. Yo talked about ''amaing coverage'', man, it 2HKOs EVERY POKEMON IN OU WITH ROCKS UP, so saying not even ''amazing'' fits terakion's STAB. The pokes you mentioned are checks, not counters, since there's no competitive battler in his right mind that dares swtching a breloom into a terrakion, and even if in the off-chance that lives (idk... sash?), then you have a serious problem, since you can predict all you want, but what if you are wrong? because i can switch into latias expecting the mach punch, or i can stay in and cc predicting the spore, you have a 50 50 chance in your hands, thats what i wanted to say (the same goes with scizor if it lives a cc on the switch, if you bp your opponent's switch, youre giving him momentum, if you uturn, your opponent can demolish you with another cc).

Rachi is more of a tricky subject, but the problem is that most of its sets are easily identified just with one turn u see wish: sp def, rachi doesnt get lefties: scarf, u see sub: sub cm (unless its sub para, but u know that by looking at one more move). I mentioned only those sets because i think they are the most usable. Also, rachi is too weak and slow in this metagame, and theres no stall to abuse with the sub cm, usually youre better off with defensive sets, which are hazards fodder and easy to counter.

Now im not saying rachi isnt a good poke, it obviously is, but, as the S-rank says, im not seeing Jirachi being suspect anywhere soon.

[morningsun]

I've argued Jarachi for S-Rank 2-3 times during the course of this thread, all before the Gene ban. With Genesect gone, there really isn't much difference though. It's a great poke and deserves S-Rank. I can give reason upon reason for this to anyone interested in arguing. It has taken out 4 Pokemon on an opposing team before going down and it only fell because Protect worked twice in a row two separate times and the Ferro had Leech Seeded it.

[G-Von]

I cannot stand that fucking pixie Jirachi. He has to be the most annoying pokemon to deal with in OU. Paraflinch, parafusion, paraflinchusion...whatever set it is, it's nerve-racking. Golurk is possibly the best thing to use to deal with it since it can't be paralyzed due to typing from Jirachi. Even then, since its slower, it doesn't need to be paralyzed to get flinched to death or KO'd by Ice Punch. Lets now break down the definition of S-Rank and see if it fits the description. (My comments are in bold)

S Rank:

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support
Seeing how its specially defensive set walls nearly all special attackers, I would say it fits this part. Physical attackers who lack ground or fire moves can get walled for the most part with the same set.

Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").
It can set up SR, WishPass, and/or paralyze a pokemon that is your main sweeper's counter. All of this with little to no effort at all.

Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability.
It can run effective sets like Specially Defensive, Choice Scarf, WishPasser, and the infamous Paraflincher/Parafusion/Paraflinchusion. Of course there are other sets but these are just the most common. If you need a pokemon that can be offensive, defensive, or supportive and make people have no idea what it will do when it is first brought out, Jirachi is the one to go to.

If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
Hmm, common weaknesses to ground and fire attacks? Less than stellar Base 100 Attacks stats? I believe that is completely outmatched by its many positives it brings to the table since 'Rachi can survive SE attacks, support all of its teammates, and get the job done offensively anyway. Hell, its immune to T-Spikes and resistant to Stealth Rock, too.

If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
As far as I know, it isn't a suspect. I would be in favor of it being tested though.

Well, there is my breakdown of whether Jirachi is worthy of S-Rank by definition or not. By my explanation, I believe it is. Feel free to agree or disagree. I just hope my words actually have an impact on the readers, and PK since he is the one who is leading this thread.

[nygerman]

there are way too many pokemon in the A tier. The tier should be pyramid based, but everything is only moving up the tiers.

[Hiphopanonymous]

I'd like to nominate Virizion for B-tier. While it CAN be easily walled, the CM set I use is actually extremely proficient in late game sweeping, if played correctly. It's bulk is quite surprising, and there have been very few moments where I have regretted having it on my team. It also makes for an unusual go-to poke against Sun teams as well, having great matchups against their Chlorophyll sweepers, whilst having Synthesis to use their own sun against them. All in all, definitely not A-tier due to it's crippling flying weakness, and competition with Breloom for a team slot, but very well worth a player's time, imo.

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat nygerman

there are way too many pokemon in the A tier. The tier should be pyramid based, but everything is only moving up the tiers.

Not with how powerful the metagame has become. To thrive at all a Pokémon HAS to do its job damn well, whether that's offense, defense, or support, or it will fall to the wayside. Logically, there's going to be more top-tier threats in OU that are all equally viable and equally threatening in some way.

Look at Latios, Kyurem-B, and Breloom. They are all incredibly dangerous, but they work in different ways. Latios is extremely fast but also boasts some pretty good fire power that forces you to go on the defensive. Kyurem-B is much slower but also bulkier and much more powerful, which forces an offense/defense mindgame: He can be walled, but letting him in for free is arguably worse than having nothing to wall him because he IS going to tear a hole in something. Breloom is up there with Salamence and Terrakion in terms of how completely fucked you are if he sets up, which forces you to go on the offensive so he doesn't get a chance to do so.

[Asek]

Originally Posted by Fat Hiphopanonymous

I'd like to nominate Virizion for B-tier. While it CAN be easily walled, the CM set I use is actually extremely proficient in late game sweeping, if played correctly. It's bulk is quite surprising, and there have been very few moments where I have regretted having it on my team. It also makes for an unusual go-to poke against Sun teams as well, having great matchups against their Chlorophyll sweepers, whilst having Synthesis to use their own sun against them. All in all, definitely not A-tier due to it's crippling flying weakness, and competition with Breloom for a team slot, but very well worth a player's time, imo.

Virizion's real claim to fame was beating Rain Stall, and with that play style being very rare in the current OU it lost one of its main niches. Combine this with the fact that Techiloom was released, which pretty much outclasses its Swords Dance set, and Virizion's use in the current OU isn't great enough for it to be B tier. Even the CM variant has been dealt a blow with rains biggest new addition in Torn-T being able to swat it away with ease, and everyone's new favorite special fighting type with CM is keldeo. Virizion is definitely at home in C considering nearly everything BW2 has brought has made it harder to use on teams.

Speaking of other fighting types, I would like to nominate Lucario for A tier. With Genesect gone he lost one of his best check's, and without gene around to do the job, very few hard counters/checks exist to beat lucario. He still has horrible 4MSS syndrome, but until you know what that move is your pretty much left in the dark with what to use to beat him, unless you have a Scarf Magnezone (lol), a Healthy Landorus-T or some other obscure set. He can definitly sweep the vast majority of the metagame with little support being necessary, and can fit onto a wide variety of teams. As a sweeper he is very hard to stop, and he has ample set up oppurtunties with his cool set of resistances. Great set up oppurtunitites include Choice Latios after a Draco Metoer, and Scizor's bullet punch, both being common sights in OU. A very big and hard to counter / check threat in OU, and is definitely up there with the other A tier mons.

EDIT: Agreeing with scizor for A tier because of afore mentioned reasons + the fact SD scor is so much better with gene gone

[Tabuu]

@Asek:
Lucario is one of my most favorite Pokemon of all times hahaha.
Lucario for A-Tier? Possibly. Quite Possibly.
I've had a lotta success with Lucario. The biggest problem I feel is if one doesn't play Lucario smartly (Like sending him out turn 4), Lucario will be a deadweight. Lucario requires Rocks quite a bit. He also needs certain threats eliminated, and sadly, the list is a bit on the extensive side. However, once Lucario gets +2, it is so hard to wall that beast. Not even Skarm can take a +2 CC after Rocks. Lucario has a great movepool that is hampered by 4MSS. Can he sweep the mast majority of the metagame? Sure. Only if it's late game. Lucario is no Terrakion, but he certaintly is a huge threat of its own kind. The reason I cast my vote 70% in for Lucario, despite these flaws, is because Breloom made it to A-Tier. Lucario, I feel, is able to perform on par with Breloom. With Higher base speed, a +2 Priority move (as opposed to Mach's +1), and a better movepool Lucario has a shot in A-Tier. Also Lucario has the SEXIEST typing in the world, that makes so many other sweepers drool in envy.