The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Wizarus]

The difference is that Loom is surprisingly self-sufficient. If played correctly, it will almost always net you 2 kills factoring in Spore as a kill. Lucario needs alot of support; there is always 1 and usually 2 pokes that can completely stop a Luke sweep.

[Rayquaza_]

Breloom's Spore definitely doesn't count as a kill.
It's one of the most predictable and telegraphed moves in the entire metagame, so everyone who faces a Breloom will always send their designed sleep absorber the turn it gets in.
And if you lack a sleep absorber, well, it's like lacking a phazer or a SR user in this metagame: your team won't go too far without one.

[Strategywin]

Toxicroak to C. Its too frail, as fast as rotom-wash but it is never scarfed, and its offenses are outclassed by infernape.
Infenape to B. Top 5 pokes, even without genesect, contains scizor (OHKo'd, cant OHKO with bp) ferro (ohkod without rain and heatran (ohko'd unless scarfed).
It also gets lovely priority, allowing it to pick off weakened breloom, it can straight up kill mamo, the anti meta poke, and life orb overheat can one shot gliscor. Also, it speedd ties with pony and terrakion, so if it is scarfed, it can do some late game clean up.

I am enjoying my sun team with specs gothitelle for politoed.

[Wizarus]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

Breloom's Spore definitely doesn't count as a kill.
It's one of the most predictable and telegraphed moves in the entire metagame, so everyone who faces a Breloom will always send their designed sleep absorber the turn it gets in.
And if you lack a sleep absorber, well, it's like lacking a phazer or a SR user in this metagame: your team won't go too far without one.

Sleep absorber? Gliscor, Espeon, Xatu, Toxic Orb Breloom and Conkeldurr, Dragonite with a Lum Berry, and that's it(unless you count crap like Shed Shell Resttalk Heatran as a sleep absorber). Half of these pokes can't switch into Loom without dying. Natural Cure pokes aren't sleep absorbers, Breloom hits the switch-in with Low Sweep, and uses Spore again if it can't beat it.

Plenty of teams don't run or need these pokemon to succeed. Plenty of teams don't run or need a phazer to succeed also.

[Rhys DeAnno]

Toxicroak: SD is good but the set I've had success with is SubPunch LO. The combination of Sub/Focus Punch/Sucker Punch can always be a huge pain to deal with for offensive teams, and under rain Toxicroak can run LO for extra power and still be healing every turn. Ice Punch is also pretty good in situations where Focus Punch is walled and Sucker is inadvisable, so if you get the sub up its likely you're going to cause some trouble with this set.

Pros: 2 great sets (SD/SubPunch), good against offensive teams, sets up on most Keldeo, pretty good vs Ttar
Cons: Needs rain, sort of bad against the Hippo

I think B tier is perfect for it.

Kyurem-Black: This thing is stupidly bulky and its defensive typing is terribad physically but pretty good specially (Focus Blast and nonChoice Keldeo are the only problems). I think the key to using a more defensive set with him is Sub+Lefties (Sub is really good if Focus Miss is coming at you frequently), and either good hazard control or Roost to keep him healthy. Also this thing has Dragon Tail if it wants it which is an interesting option.

Pros: Excellent wallbreaker, good against rain and water types in general, basically its like a Hax with the option to go bulky
Cons: Ugly defensive typing physically, speed too slow to actually outspeed things

I think it should stay in A tier for now, it's more versatile than it gets credit for.

Skarmory: This guy seems pretty great, supposedly Genesect was shitting all over it when I was gone but with the rocket bug banned it feels like it might be able to go A tier to me. Its notable that if you use a specially defensive set it might be able to wall Tornadus-T in most situations (Heat Wave is a problem). I'm less confident with this than the other two though and should probably test it more.

[TheStriker]

READ THIS PLEASE AND AGREE!

I would like Hydreigon to become A Rank

That amazing movepool and coverage lets it break through evry wall. With Choice Scarf, he can be the best revnge killer out there becaus eof his fantastic coverage. Genesect is similiar to him because of his amazing coverage. Life Oeb doesn't waste his amazing coverage and allows him to kill everything like a boss.

Amazing defenses and being completely unpredictable is a major pro. So, I want many to go with A Rank because of its scarfing and wallbreaking capibilties.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat TheStriker

READ THIS PLEASE AND AGREE!

I would like Hydreigon to become A Rank

That amazing movepool and coverage lets it break through evry wall. With Choice Scarf, he can be the best revnge killer out there becaus eof his fantastic coverage. Genesect is similiar to him because of his amazing coverage.

Amazing defenses and being completely unpredictable is a major pro. So, I want many to go with A Rank because of its scarfing and wallbreaking capibilties.

Maybe seconding this? Hydreigon is definitely an underrated threat and he hurts everything like hell. I wouldn't call him the best scarfer, however. His odd speed hurts him, making him weak to faster revenge killers who have a type advantage over him (Salamence, the Lati twins, Terrakion and Keldeo being the major threats), and I personally feel that not allowing Hydreigon to switch moves is a waste of his fantastic coverage.

Is he A-tier material, though? Eh, maybe. I wouldn't complain if he was moved, that's for sure.

[alexwolf]

Ok now that Genesect is gone time to go through some Pokemon:

Skarmory

I am really torn about Skarmory right now. On the bright side, Genesect's recent banning made Skarmory much more viable, as Skarmory was pure set-up bait for RP Genesect, and in general hated Genesect. Skarmory was and still is one of the best physical walls in the game, with awesome bulk, resistances, reliable healing, Spikes and SR, and phazing (it can even use Taunt). This allows it to wall or check some prominent physical attackers such as Scarf Salamence, DD Mence locked into Outrage, any DDNite and CBNite locked into Outrage, choice Kyurem-B locked into anything bar Fusion Bolt, Scarf Terrakion, Mamoswine, physical Landorus, and Garchomp.

However, the fact that Skarmory is a purely defensive Pokemon that slows down the pace of the game does not help it in such a fast paced meta, especially when many of the special attackers that easily force it out can easily switch into it, namely Thund-T (with SR off), SubCM Jirachi, SubToxic Tentacruel, Specs Politoed, LO Latias, Rotom-W, Starmie, Magnezone, and Ninetales (with SR off). And giving a free switch in to those Pokemon is never a good thing, as most of them are quite difficult to wall, while the others are annoying to deal with due to particular reasons (Volt Switch and WoW on Rotom-W, Scald on Starmie, and SubToxic on Tenta). Also when using Skarmory, if one wants to really abuse its Spkiking ability, then he must dedicate a slot to a spin-blocker, as Skarmory is Rapid Spin bait, slowing down the team even more as more Ghosts are defensive Pokemon (except when running Gengar, but Gengar is usually seen on offensive teams, where Skarmory doesn't fit), which again is not such a good thing atm. Finally, while Skarmory certainly checks a lot of physical attackers, it cannot wall most S and A rank physical Pokemon as a whole, meaning that you cannot deal with them solely with Skarmory. For example, Skarmory can easily switch into ScarfMence and Scarf Terrakion, but not against DDMence and any other Terrakion, meaning that you must use more checks for those Pokemon. In fact Skarmory completely walls very few Pokemon in S and A rank, mainly Garchomp, who can still get past it if run on a sun team, Dragonite, and Breloom after Sleep Clause is activated. Against all other Pokemon Skarmory has to scout sets first, limiting its ability to freely switch in early game against Pokemon that it is supposed to handle, such as physical Landorus, physical Kyurem-B, and SpD Jirachi.

So even though Skarmory is still a very good poke, and it is the best all around Dragon-type counter ever if you use a SpD set in rain, it kind of struggles in this fast paced meta, or at least struggles enough to not be in A Rank. That's why i believe that Skarmory should remain in B Rank.

Breloom

Even though the banning of Genesect had little influence over Breloom, i think we should really consider putting Breloom in S Rank. Breloom's versatility, ability to sweep, and threat level were never this high. Breloom can run 4 different but all very destructive sets, namely SD, CB, SubPunch, and SpD with Leech Seed, which often have different check and counters. After sacrificing something to sleep, you bring in Latios thinking you will be able to revenge kill the SD set? Bam Breloom threatens for a 2HKO with LO Low Sweep or sets up a Sub proceeding to scout for your move and then smack you around with Focus Punch. You bring in Skarmory after Sleep Clause is activated? Bam CB Low Sweep 2HKOes with very little prior damage. But Breloom is not only versatile, it is also powerful, has Spore which often equals to a free kill, has good resistances to switch in against many defensive Pokemon, and finally has Mach Punch to serve as a very good revenge killer. It does so many things, and it does them so good, making it a huge influence in OU. I could say more but we all know how good Breloom is, and most of you have already a solid opinion about Breloom's ranking so i will stop here.

[LucaroarkZ]

I dunno alexwolf, I can't see Breloom being S Rank. As in, if anything faster that is resistant to Mach Punch is still alive and healthy, Breloom will seriously struggle to sweep. Are you going to switch these Mach Punch resists in on Spore? Hell no, that's beyond stupidity. Unless your name is Xatu, that is.

Let's look at what's in S rank already. Well, the only true sweeper there is Terrakion. Terrakion has much greater dual-STAB coverage than Breloom (have I mentioned how terrible Grass/Fighting coverage is?). Can anything switch in on Terrakion? I mean stuff that's relevant, so no Golurk. Anyway, the answer to that is no. On the other hand, looking at Breloom, a ton of crap can switch in given that Sleep Clause is activated, as in most Pokemon that resist both of its STAB moves, which is really a lot. There are two foolproof revenge killers to Terrakion: Scizor and Breloom. On the other hand, if you're faster than Breloom and resistant/immune to Mach Punch (or even just bulky enough to take one), odds are you can revenge kill it. These Pokemon resistant/immune to Mach Punch are so commonplace that teams often have at least two of them by default. So, Breloom S-rank? I don't think so.

[alexwolf]

The thing is that Breloom is not only a sweeper. Breloom can put one Pokemon out of the game with Spore, except from a few select cases, has strong priority, and is very versatile as he can run sets that all require different counter and/or checks. Terrakion has none of those. Sure it can sweep better, but Breloom can do things other than sweeping, which is where its value lies. If only the SD set existed i wouldn't propose Breloom for S rank, but with all the different and effective sets he has, he is quite a force and is one of the best Pokemon i have used the past months.

[Deluks917]

Waking up is hard to do...

But seriously in many mus a sleeping pokmon might as well be dead. So if breloom gets off a spore whatever else it does feels "free."

[LucaroarkZ]

I'm just going to split parts of this up...

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

The thing is that Breloom is not only a sweeper. Breloom can put one Pokemon out of the game with Spore, except from a few select cases, has strong priority, and is very versatile as he can run sets that all require different counter and/or checks.

The last part of this is false. Breloom's sets all have that awful Grass/Fighting coverage in common, so they actually very frequently share the same checks and counters (removing Gliscor and Gengar for Technician sets since they don't like taking Bullet Seeds).

Terrakion has none of those. Sure it can sweep better, but Breloom can do things other than sweeping, which is where its value lies. If only the SD set existed i wouldn't propose Breloom for S rank, but with all the different and effective sets he has, he is quite a force and is one of the best Pokemon i have used the past months.

"Sweeping better" is all that matters, really. Let's look at Breloom's sets: Physical attacker with Life Orb/Choice Band, Swords Dance, Choice Scarf, and Sub sets with Poison Heal. And once again, all of these sets have many checks/counters in common, and it's not like Scarf Breloom is common at all. Often times the Pokemon that actually gets put to sleep is that Pokemon that won't end up doing much for the rest of the battle anyway (I switch in the least useful member of my team into Spore a lot, why wouldn't I?) As for Sporing something.... Breloom's slow and frail, man. Not really a good combo. Best you can do is force out something weak to Mach Punch or choice-locked, but in the former case they may just end up predicting you to go for Spore and simply kill you.

[Wizarus]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Ok now that Genesect is gone time to go through some Pokemon:

Skarmory

I am really torn about Skarmory right now. On the bright side, Genesect's recent banning made Skarmory much more viable, as Skarmory was pure set-up bait for RP Genesect, and in general hated Genesect. Skarmory was and still is one of the best physical walls in the game, with awesome bulk, resistances, reliable healing, Spikes and SR, and phazing (it can even use Taunt). This allows it to wall or check some prominent physical attackers such as Scarf Salamence, DD Mence locked into Outrage, any DDNite and CBNite locked into Outrage, choice Kyurem-B locked into anything bar Fusion Bolt, Scarf Terrakion, Mamoswine, physical Landorus, and Garchomp.

However, the fact that Skarmory is a purely defensive Pokemon that slows down the pace of the game does not help it in such a fast paced meta, especially when many of the special attackers that easily force it out can easily switch into it, namely Thund-T (with SR off), SubCM Jirachi, SubToxic Tentacruel, Specs Politoed, LO Latias, Rotom-W, Starmie, Magnezone, and Ninetales (with SR off). And giving a free switch in to those Pokemon is never a good thing, as most of them are quite difficult to wall, while the others are annoying to deal with due to particular reasons (Volt Switch and WoW on Rotom-W, Scald on Starmie, and SubToxic on Tenta). Also when using Skarmory, if one wants to really abuse its Spkiking ability, then he must dedicate a slot to a spin-blocker, as Skarmory is Rapid Spin bait, slowing down the team even more as more Ghosts are defensive Pokemon (except when running Gengar, but Gengar is usually seen on offensive teams, where Skarmory doesn't fit), which again is not such a good thing atm. Finally, while Skarmory certainly checks a lot of physical attackers, it cannot wall most S and A rank physical Pokemon as a whole, meaning that you cannot deal with them solely with Skarmory. For example, Skarmory can easily switch into ScarfMence and Scarf Terrakion, but not against DDMence and any other Terrakion, meaning that you must use more checks for those Pokemon. In fact Skarmory completely walls very few Pokemon in S and A rank, mainly Garchomp, who can still get past it if run on a sun team, Dragonite, and Breloom after Sleep Clause is activated. Against all other Pokemon Skarmory has to scout sets first, limiting its ability to freely switch in early game against Pokemon that it is supposed to handle, such as physical Landorus, physical Kyurem-B, and SpD Jirachi.

So even though Skarmory is still a very good poke, and it is the best all around Dragon-type counter ever if you use a SpD set in rain, it kind of struggles in this fast paced meta, or at least struggles enough to not be in A Rank. That's why i believe that Skarmory should remain in B Rank.

I like to view Skarmory as insurance against almost every physical threat in OU. Obviously it's not going to wall everything on it's own, but usually you can switch it in and guarantee your team is not getting swept due to Whirlwind, Bulk, and Sturdy. It's more of a general pivot, and you use it to double down on the number of things you check. I also generally use SR instead of Spikes on Skarmory, since Ferrothorn is pretty much the better Spiker with it's natural resistance to Volt-Turn and Iron Barb + Power Whip to punish Rapid Spinners.

[ginganinja]

The thing is that Breloom is not only a sweeper. Breloom can put one Pokemon out of the game with Spore, except from a few select cases, has strong priority, and is very versatile as he can run sets that all require different counter and/or checks.

This post has a few things wrong with it. Firstly, Breloom is pretty much only a sweeper, yes, you can have that gay Spore / Leech Seed / Protect / Drain Punch set (or whateverit is), but by and large its a sweeper. Secondly, as pointed out Breloom doesn't really "get around" its counters (outside of Spore), since its move are pretty much in stone (grass / fighting / Spore / SD or another fighting move) as many of its sets share the same base counters or checks. Its also somewhat tricky for Breloom to set up, you can run bulk, but then you lose out on priority wars, and if you run speed then boosted water attacks do a ton, which, added with Life Orb means that you are not hanging around for long. Compare this with Terrakion, which also has a fair few number of weaknesses, but under sandstorm it can take a large number of special attacks, without sandstorm it still has excellent bulk which let it set up a sub, SD, or Rock Polish boost, making it truly tough to handle. I think Breloom is a top tier pokemon, easily on of the better pokemon in A rank, but I hardly see it as a "potential" suspect at this stage of the metagame, and yea, I think it belongs in A Tier.

[FaceFaceFace]

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

Maybe seconding this? Hydreigon is definitely an underrated threat and he hurts everything like hell. I wouldn't call him the best scarfer, however. His odd speed hurts him, making him weak to faster revenge killers who have a type advantage over him (Salamence, the Lati twins, Terrakion and Keldeo being the major threats), and I personally feel that not allowing Hydreigon to switch moves is a waste of his fantastic coverage.

Is he A-tier material, though? Eh, maybe. I wouldn't complain if he was moved, that's for sure.

Hydreigon's too slow for a dragon. You'd be better off with something like LO Latias as a wallbreaker. I tried them both, and Latias was better by a mile.

[Hiphopanonymous]

I actually would like to agree that Hydreigon should be moved up as well. It may be slow, but it does have power, and arguably more versatility than the Lati's. Obviously not broken, but is VERY underrated in my opinion and now that Genesect is gone, Hydreigon has it's chance to shine once again. Despite it's weaknesses, it still has some neat resistances to use with it's decent bulk, combined with the wide offensive movepool that it boasts, it's more than usable.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat FaceFaceFace

Hydreigon's too slow for a dragon. You'd be better off with something like LO Latias as a wallbreaker. I tried them both, and Latias was better by a mile.

Hydreigon has the capability to go mixed and doesn't care about Tyranitar, who scares the Lati twins shitless.. Plus Hydreigon's low-speed can actually be a point in its favor, since that means it can afford to run a Modest nature, giving its attacks a lot of extra kick.

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

Hydreigon has the capability to go mixed and doesn't care about Tyranitar, who scares the Lati twins shitless.. Plus Hydreigon's low-speed can actually be a point in its favor, since that means it can afford to run a Modest nature, giving its attacks a lot of extra kick.

The problem is that it has to run jolly to outspeed Haxorus and base 95's UU's used in OU like Arcanine and Darmanitan.

[SJCrew]

Haxorus rarely runs Jolly though, so you can bet on Hydreigon outspeeding it most of the time.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat G-Von

The problem is that it has to run jolly to outspeed Haxorus and base 95's UU's used in OU like Arcanine and Darmanitan.

Haxorus usually runs Adamant for the same reason Hydreigon runs Modest (more firepower, nothing notable to outspeed). And if we're assuming for a second here that Darmanitan and (lol) Arcanine are actually threats to prepare for, don't they both also tend to run Adamant natures?

[gengarsnemisis]

Darmanitan usually runs choice scarf so it doesn't really matter wither way, and arcanine usually runs adamant. As for Hydeigon for A, I'm not really seeing it. I feel as a special attacker its easily outclassed by the latis, and as a wallbreaker it now has stiff competeion with Kyu-b. I think hes high B tier and should be left at that.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat gengarsnemisis

Darmanitan usually runs choice scarf so it doesn't really matter wither way, and arcanine usually runs adamant. As for Hydeigon for A, I'm not really seeing it. I feel as a special attacker its easily outclassed by the latis, and as a wallbreaker it now has stiff competeion with Kyu-b. I think hes high B tier and should be left at that.

I wouldn't call Hydreigon outclassed by any of those Pokemon; just different. Hydreigon is slower than the Lati twins, but has a better typing and more firepower (assuming Latios is Timid, which it usually is). However, I do feel that using Hydreigon as a pure special attacker is a waste of his potential.

As far as Cube is concerned, again, Hydreigon isn't outclassed; he's just different. What he lacks in Cube's sheer, Earth-shattering, face-melting power, he makes up for with better typing, a ground immunity, and an actual movepool with actual coverage moves. So yeah, I'd say Hydreigon is at the very least high B, but potential low-mid range A.

[Remedy]

Pretty pointless to say "if x goes Modest or Timid" etc.
Watch the Stats, Hydreigon hits less hard and he's far slower.
Why would you talk about natures?

Hydreigon has a good typing, but that's it.
To be honest I agree with what has been said, he's not totally outclassed but mostly.

[FaceFaceFace]

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

Hydreigon has the capability to go mixed and doesn't care about Tyranitar, who scares the Lati twins shitless.. Plus Hydreigon's low-speed can actually be a point in its favor, since that means it can afford to run a Modest nature, giving its attacks a lot of extra kick.

Not giving a damn about Tyranitar is probably Hydreigon's biggest selling point. But IMO, it ends there.

As for running mixed - Superpower is pretty much a Christmas gift for Tyranitar alone (Chansey doesn't even get 2HKOed), what else can Hydreigon run? Earthquake? Who's that going to hit? Jirachi who outspeeds you? Terrakion, who also outspeeds you? I count Heatran, Lucario, and Magnezone.

Not investing in attack also means your attacks will significantly lack power. U-turn is cool for scouting sets, but that's about it.

Also, what's the point of having a Modest nature if you're going to get outsped and KOed anyway? I'd take the speed advantage any day.

Hydreigon's a good wall breaker, who are usually on the slower side. Alas, this meta is way too offensive for him to shine.

[Siggu]

Originally Posted by Fat FaceFaceFace

As for running mixed - Superpower is pretty much a Christmas gift for Tyranitar alone (Chansey doesn't even get 2HKOed)

Actually, with SR, a layer of Spikes, and a Mild nature, Hydreigon can 2HKO a perfectly healthy Chansey with a combination of Superpower and Draco Meteor, but it needs good damage rolls (Or more layers of hazards) to do so

Specially Defensive Heatran is 2HKOed by Superpower most of the time, too