Pokémon BW2 In-game Tier List Mark II

[Present]

Lets not forget that you can switch out pokemon after killing something. Saying that sigilyph will be send out does not mean heracross beats the rest of her team (when hitting). Granted, he won't kill Sigilyph, but use something else for that then.

I am not saying I disagree with any of you, just that losing to one pokemon means it is bad against the other three.

Mainly, I think the arguments to make something a certain tier should not be that it loses to a specific pokemon, but mainly how good it is overall. Heracross seems quite good, scraggy too. Although Scrafty is a bit slow to my liking, and will fail to abuse moxie against the ghost elite four (cough mummy cough). This does not mean you can't switch it out afterwards, or knock cofragigus out with something else and then beat the rest with scrafty.

What I have found to be the most irritating about most pokemon is their speed stat (or lack of bulk to take the hit). I do not like using up too much potions in-game, which means I do not like my maggy to be outsped most of the time ( or scrafty for that matter). This counts for most pokemon. In theory, lucario should beat clay's excadrill and grimsley's (?) krookodile with no problem, but they outsped and ohko'd.

[Antihaxxer]

Moxie Scrafty doesn't work against Shauntal due to Mummy on Cofag & Cursed Body on Jellicent

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat Antihaxxer

Moxie Scrafty doesn't work against Shauntal due to Mummy on Cofag & Cursed Body on Jellicent

It doesn't need the Moxie Boosts against her. You'll put Expert Belt on for Shauntel because you aren't using HJK against her anyway.

Besides, Cursed Body disables a move, it doesn't disable the ability. Just have something else kill Cofagrigus if you're so concerned about it.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Pretty much that, TM13. Using the argument that Heracross can beat Caitlin means nothing when Scrafty can do that against all four of her Pokemon with STAB Crunch. He also can solo Shauntel regardless of Moxie Boosts, and only has trouble against Grimsley's own Scrafty thanks to being weak against itself. Obviously you're not using a Dark type against Marshal, and Scrafty can do significant damage to Iris' entire team while surviving the one hit that Haxorus is going to get no matter what (because Focus Sash). I don't think Heracross can boast the same thing.

Hey, wait a second. I didn't say anything about Scrafty vs. Caitlin. My argument was on Heracross, how did it get to Scrafty? Goth outruns Scrafty and is Caitlin's strongest Pokemon. And Sigilyph is self-explanatory.

Wide Lens boosts HJK's accuracy to 99 percent. 130 Base Power is excellent; why have we been saying that HJK sucks because we "can't" throw Expert Belt on instead?

Same shit accomplished by Guts Flame Orb in a much more spectacular and reliable fashion. Just get Heracross status'd before entering E4. :/

Koffing had a painful shit period before it evolved; I never encountered a real shit period with Scraggy. It rarely ever died because it was too busy killing things to die.

Poison Gas Venoshock doesn't work? Or Scraggy was too busy taking hits not to die? :O

Also, lol at saying that Scraggy's stats suck when it has Base 75 Attack, Base 70 defense and a great Duel STAB combination. 348 is more than a lot of Pokemon have as a base form, guys.

In compensation Scraggy evolves at Lv39 so it has to drag his unevolved shit until Skyla. Scrafty's stats aren't that spectacular in comparison (488 is actually mediocre, if we are even using the BST argument then Darmanitan has 480 and his ability boosts his strongest attack to ridiculous levels.)

IDK why I even support scrafty for top anymore
Scrafty to high, just isn't worth the effort needed to catch it in the first place and he takes way too long to train (darumaka just needs the accuracy boost to fire punch)

tl;dr: scrafty just isn't comparable to darmanitan, krookodile or even mag and will never hold its own on top on account of his mediocre attack and meh-ish speed alone. it's fucking weak without moxie, krookodile will destroy the opponent with or without moxie. scrafty is probably best used to just work up to +6 which a lot of others can claim...

[The Cicada]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

and if it misses you die to psychic? not to mention she WILL send out sigilyph after losing something

also the chances of megahorn hitting three things is 61%

while the chances of darmanitan successfully murdering everything with charcoal flare blitz is 100%

pick your poison

although if you agree to 61% that means you probably condone the use of hypnosis as a reliable strategy

you're putting a wide lens on scrafty, so why not do the same for Heracross for one fight?

[Lucchini]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

and if it misses you die to psychic? not to mention she WILL send out sigilyph after losing something

also the chances of megahorn hitting three things is 61%

while the chances of darmanitan successfully murdering everything with charcoal flare blitz is 100%

pick your poison

although if you agree to 61% that means you probably condone the use of hypnosis as a reliable strategy

Wide Lens ups your accuracy to 93,5; resulting in a 81% chance to connect all 3 Megahorns. Heracross also has sufficient special bulk to take Gothitelle's Psychic at full HP and Musharna can't do anything to him unless you enter with 0 Awakenings and Full Heals. Let's not consider any numbers outside of the context.

Scrafty has more than one problem against Caitlin too - it'll be taking Sigilyph's Air Slash due to being too slow (with the possibility of flinch hax), and not OHKOing Reuniclus with Payback due to being too fast, and Metagross will probably 2HKO it.

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Also, lol at saying that Scraggy's stats suck when it has Base 75 Attack, Base 70 defense and a great Duel STAB combination. 348 is more than a lot of Pokemon have as a base form, guys.

Scraggy has the same base stat total as Drifloon, so that's not really a compliment. It doesn't care about the lack of special attack as it won't be using it, though (same situation as Darumaka).

Scraggy has excellent offensive options and defensive stats (esp. with Eviolite) for an unevolved Pokemon; its only shortcomings are its speed and late evolution.

[The Cicada]

scraggy down to high needs to happen.

[Alice in Strings]

I still don't see that happening. Scrafty takes out most of the in-game bosses without help and without hassle. The only time my Scrafty ever died was against Flying types, which is a problem for pretty much all Fighting types.

Why are you using Payback when Crunch is the more reliable, superior option? Also Metagross is in Challenge mode, not Regular mode.

90 offense is just fine for in-game. Not to mention

it's fucking weak without moxie

So I suppose Azumarill, whom we argued about earlier should automatically be thrown down to Mid because it's a complete joke without Huge Power? Magnezone without Sturdy doesn't nearly have as much usability because you can't switch it in on nearly as many foes for OHKOs.

I used Scrafty over Magnezone a lot simply because it was better in the long run, and almost always killed things with ease. The only things it had trouble against were Flying types (a given, being a Fighting type, and I fail to see how Hera would do any better). Once again, Scrafty has no trouble with most of the trainers in the game. Isn't this about how the Pokemon performs in the game, not if it's outclassed by something else?

Also, Poison Gas is a bit overrated. It's got accuracy issues, which I'm no fan of.

[The Cicada]

You're the only one who seems to making comparisons.

Azumarill has nothing to do with Scrafty btw. A water type with bloody high atk and 100/80/80 bulk at level 18 and a 90 bp stab move lvl 21 is completly different than Scrafty.

[Layell]

Moxie Scraggy may be amazing but there is no reason to not be happy with shed skin because you are saved turns against all forms of status. By all means he is probably the hardest to get top tier pokemon on any ingame tier list we have. But moxie just destroys too much. Heracross while clearly useful is not going to define your run if it comes so late when your other team members have been leveled up and have picked some stray EV's here and there. He is an ideal team filler if you're running short on good battlers for where he is found so high is the ideal placement for him.

[Lucchini]

Payback hits harder when you act second, which is often enough in important battles, and the 20 BP makes a difference (with that 90 base attack).

Sturdy shouldn't even be taken into account when discussing Magnezone. Why would you sacrifice most of its HP when surely you have other options available. Magnezone without Sturdy should function exactly the same as Magnezone with Sturdy in-game.

Heracross's advantage over Scrafty is that it can outspeed and OHKO some of the fliers (namely the birds) that would destroy it if it happened to be slower.

Also, it's no problem to just catch the Marill with the right nature. It takes less time to do so than catching a Sigilyph with lots of Ultra Balls, and Sigilyph is in high tier. You can even evolve it with a Rare Candy if you're impatient, and it'll serve you well against Clay. Azumarill is even slower, though, and has a worse defensive typing. You'll need a lot of items to maintain it while it's dishing out those OHKOs left and right.

Also, I doubt Heracross will be any weaker than the rest of your team when you catch it before Elesa. It's definitely going to be stronger than all your Pokemon waiting for an evolution (which form the entirety of Top tier and most of High tier by the way) at that point, and it only keeps getting better as the game progresses. It loses only the desert area if compared to Scraggy, and you could always backtrack there to train Heracross and catch it first since the main road only takes a minute or so.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat The Cicada

You're the only one who seems to making comparisons.

Azumarill has nothing to do with Scrafty btw. A water type with bloody high atk and 100/80/80 bulk at level 18 and a 90 bp stab move lvl 21 is completly different than Scrafty.

But only with Huge Power, which is what I said.

[The Cicada]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

But only with Huge Power, which is what I said.

I see no reason for you to keep saying what we already know.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

But only with Huge Power, which is what I said.

Azurill is the second most common Pokemon in the ranch. Halving that for the chance of Huge Power, it's 10%. Whatever the case, when you encounter a Pokemon there's a 10% chance of being HP Azurill, which is still better than 5% Scraggy >.<

[The Cicada]

i dont get why or how Scraggy and Azumarill can come close to being compared e_e. they are two totally different pokemon. only thing they have in common is slow and bulk

[Phexar]

Originally Posted by Fat The Cicada

i dont get why or how Scraggy and Azumarill can come close to being compared e_e. they are two totally different pokemon. only thing they have in common is slow and bulk

It's because the third thing they have in common is that they both require one of their two main abilities to start really hitting things hard. Though I would say Scrafty definitely doesn't suffer as badly with Shed Skin as Azumarill does with Thick Fat.

I haven't used Scrafty yet in this playthrough of Black 2, but I am using Azumarill and I do concur that it belongs in High - it just really hits things quite hard with great neutral coverage, is fairly bulky (Charm can blunt the attacks of some opponents too, if you raised it from an Azurill), and evolves to it's final form quite early along with scoring a STAB Aqua Tail at around the same time.

Funnily enough it lagged for me as a Marill rather than an Azurill since it didn't have Azurill's STAB on Return/Frustration, nor did it have Azumarill's power. I didn't have that many problems using it as an Azurill. That said I don't think it deserves a Top position because as people have mentioned, it does have problems with speed and has more of a rough start, but I'd be quite happy to see it in High.

I loved Scrafty in BW1 though, and I thought it deserved Top there. I missed with Hi Jump Kick only once, the rest of the time it pretty much murdered things and tanked damage. Dark/Fighting was a spectacular type combo. Really cleaned through Team Plasma especially, and was the one I used to thrash Ghetsis and some of the Elite 4. It did have some speed issues like Azumarill, but I never found it had any weak periods, even as a Scraggy. Not certain how it fares in BW2, though I couldn't really see it below High.

[The Cicada]

I dont get why people think Azumarill has problems as an Azurill. As soon as you get Frustration its ready to be a stand-alone pokemon. Solos Cheren since using charm will make him spam work up till he's at like +2 and by then he'd be beaten. It also solos Roxie, cuz, well, she's just no good unless in challenge mode. It also does fairly well against Burghs gym, Neutral Return hits hard enough, while it's bulky enough to take multiple Razor Leafs. 100/80/80 bulk at level 18 with that sky high attack is just incredible.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat The Cicada

I dont get why people think Azumarill has problems as an Azurill. As soon as you get Frustration its ready to be a stand-alone pokemon. Solos Cheren since using charm will make him spam work up till he's at like +2 and by then he'd be beaten. It also solos Roxie, cuz, well, she's just no good unless in challenge mode. It also does fairly well against Burghs gym, Neutral Return hits hard enough, while it's bulky enough to take multiple Razor Leafs. 100/80/80 bulk at level 18 with that sky high attack is just incredible.

Tell me where in that post he says that it lags as an Azurill. To me, this looks like a pointless post. He said it lagged as a Marill.

Also, it was mentioned earlier in the topic that rarity wasn't a factor (for Azurill, admittedly), so I don't see why it's an issue for Scraggy.

[The Cicada]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Tell me where in that post he says that it lags as an Azurill. To me, this looks like a pointless post. He said it lagged as a Marill.

Also, it was mentioned earlier in the topic that rarity wasn't a factor (for Azurill, admittedly), so I don't see why it's an issue for Scraggy.

I didnt say he said that tho.

[Alice in Strings]

Why would you have brought it up, then?

[The Cicada]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Why would you have brought it up, then?

I was referring to past arguments. Most of them involving you.

[Alice in Strings]

Again, why would you have brought it up without that remark being made. But I digress. I still support Scrafty for Top.

[The Cicada]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Again, why would you have brought it up without that remark being made. But I digress. I still support Scrafty for Top.

Why does that matter? And also, I think Scrafty for high as been voted more than Scrafty for top.

[IOS]

I think Scrafty should be top. Consider its sheer power shortly after jointime. At Level 23 it'll effectively have a 75BP and 100BP STAB with perfect coverage between the two. That's insane considering somebody like Darumaka only has one 75BP STAB with 80% accuracy. Attack exceeds Darumaka's after 2 kills too (assuming Moxie). Defense is of course an obvious win for Scraggy

Once Darmanitan gets Flare Blitz, things get interesting. Ignoring the four levels before Scraggy evolves (fine, its a win for Darmanitan), it's a pretty close battle. To demonstrate, lets consider them both at Level 40 against an opponent they're both neutral against (Throh for example)

Lvl 40 Throh (15 IVs, Docile): 152 HP, 91 Atk, 79 Def, 47 Spd
Lvl 40 Darmanitan (15 IVs, 30 EVs, Docile): 142 HP, 125 Atk, 57 Def, 89 Spd
Lvl 40 Scrafty (15 IVs, 30 EVs, Docile): 110 HP, 85 Atk, 105 Def, 60 Spd

Darmanitan: 119-140 Dmg, 40-47 Damage to self. Takes 58-68 Damage from a Brick Break. One more hit is a probable self-KO.

Scrafty: 67-79 Dmg, 99-116 Dmg if its killed one Pokemon before, 130-153 Dmg if its killed two Pokemon before,
Takes 32-38 damage, but I just remembered its weak to Fighting so double that...

However, that's not really the point I was trying to make. Scraggy soaks up hits like its nothing (getting 3-4HKO'd by tough opponents) and is potentially OHKOing back tough opponents if it gets going with Moxie. Darmanitan can't handle it due to Flare Blitz's self destructive nature.

With weaker opponents, its even worse for Darmanitan. Scrafty has an easier time OHKOing, while it shrugs off even more damage. Darmanitan is still pretty self destructive.

I think you could make a perfectly legitimate case for Darmanitan=Scraggy, so really I see both of them as top tier guys.

[TM13IceBeam]

Trainers rarely run at least 3 pokemon around the 4th gym (i'm pretty sure for instance, the only trainers to do so are Burgh and Elesa, and a bunch of derps carrying around the monkeys in the stadium). Moxie Scraggy's damage leads after 2 kills are insignificant early on because this damage lead, for whatever it's worth, only exists for a couple of specific trainers. Even rare are trainers running 6 Pokemon that allows Scrafty to maximise the usage of Moxie (Iris, Ghetsis, Colress... any more...?). Trainers with 3 Pokemon are more common towards the latter end of the game, so the point made is that Scrafty only barely outdamages Darm after two kills, and cleanly does after three. By then, most of the opponent's party would've been dead already, leaving Scrafty's advantages moot. On the other hand, Darm is basically +2 Scrafty from the get go, and is fast enough to brutally murder anything that doesn't resist fire or doesn't have any semblance of decent bulk. From your Darm VS. Throh example, it's clear that something as bulky as Throh is very nearly OHKO'd. Something frailer will not live a Flare Blitz to strike back a weakened Darmanitan.

The advantages are pretty clear to me. Darmanitan > Scrafty. High Scrafty.