(Tournament) Eevee Cup

[Sidfrid]

Without access to Brick Break, i found that Frosth Breath will be pretty useful, since giving Espeon the chance to get screens up could prove deadly.

Of course you can just Taunt Espeon before it can set up the screens, but the only eeveevolution that get Taunt is Umbreon, who will never outspeed Espeon making that option useless.

[Age of Kings]

Personally I think CM is a meh use of Espeon. Remember that rotation battles are different than pure singles in that a rotation is like a switch but you don't spend a turn doing so. With that in mind, I don't how it can just sit there with too many boosts against a semi-decent team and decent prediction both on its boosting turn and whatever offensive move it uses. I find it particularly vulnerable against Sun teams where its sweeping dreams can be ended by Adamant Chlorophyll Leafeon after wasting a turn setting up. I would prefer screens Espeon because not only will it enhance its own survivability but also the other threats on your team. I feel like it's a bit like DD Mence in 4th gen (I have not played BW OU) where it's risky and difficult to set up for your sweep but powerful and extremely difficult to wall. Getting there is the hard part. And I am operating under the assumption +1 LO Signal Beam kills Umbreon.

Now that I post this, Guts Quick Attack Flareon might be worth running because it's the strongest priority in the meta.

[Jangrafess]

Originally Posted by Fat Sidfrid

Without access to Brick Break, i found that Frosth Breath will be pretty useful, since giving Espeon the chance to get screens up could prove deadly.

Of course you can just Taunt Espeon before it can set up the screens, but the only eeveevolution that get Taunt is Umbreon, who will never outspeed Espeon making that option useless.

Espeon can just run Magic Bounce to stop Taunt ever working anyway.

[Sidfrid]

Originally Posted by Fat Age of Kings

Now that I post this, Guts Quick Attack Flareon might be worth running because it's the strongest priority in the meta.

I think this would prove useful, as you can pick weakened Jolteon before it can even attack. This is by the assumption that every Jolteon will be Choice Specs, and behind a screen Jolteon is a pain to take down.

[blarajan]

252 Atk Guts Flareon (+Atk) Quick Attack vs 0 HP/0 Def Arceus: 16.27% - 19.16% (6-7 hits to KO)

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Eevee (+Atk) Quick Attack vs 0 HP/0 Def Arceus: 18.9% - 22.57% (5-6 hits to KO)

Winner

[Age of Kings]

....breaking out the damage calcs, are we? CB Adamant Eevee does 48.6% - 57.1% with QA to 0/0 Jolteon and Espeon. Eviolite Eevee does 31.4% - 38.6% with QA and barely misses the OHKO with Return.

Flareon does a clean OHKO with Facade (141.4% - 166.4%), Fire Fang most of the time (98.6% - 116.4%, clean OHKO on 0/0 Leafeon and Glaceon), though QA misses the 2HKO (40.7% - 48.6%). Superpower is a clean OHKO on 252/0 +SpD Umbreon, 2HKO from Facade if you "mispredict". Bold 252/252 Vaporeon takes a hefty 54.4% - 64.1% from Facade. This thing is a monster behind screens with nothing but a Guts boost, 2HKOing every single Pokemon in the metagame. If you happen to pass a Curse boost onto this thing...

[voodoo pimp]

Is there really a point in running Fire Fang on Flareon? Leafeon and non-specially-defensive Glaceon are hit harder by Fire Blast even with 0 SpA, and everything else takes more from Facade. Not to mention going mixed makes Superpower's stat drops hurt a bit less.

[Age of Kings]

Not necessarily...

Fire Fang on 252/0 Glaceon: 97% - 115%
on 252/0 Leafeon: 84.4% - 99.4%

Fire Blast on 252/0 Glaceon 77.2% - 91.6%
on 252/0 Leafeon: 106% - 124.6%

Both of these calcs assume Brave, which I would not run for reasons I will explain later. The only thing Fire Blast has over Fire Fang is that it is a guaranteed OHKO on 252/0 Leafeon. Most people will not be running that much HP (they will either be running enough speed to beat Timid Glaceon or go all the way to beat other Leafeon and possibly capitalize on people who run Modest Espeon with 30 Speed or less which will realistically happen in lower ratings), and if they do there is a strong possibility it is a sun team in which case they are both unquestionable OHKOs but Fire Blast has crappier accuracy. But honestly, I posit you this situation: what kind of spread would you be running with Flareon? Personally, I wouldn't bother with mixed spreads because they will hurt your damage potential or survivability. Investing in SpA EVs will take away from the meatier stats. Going with a -Speed nature such as Brave is an issue because you speed tie 4 of the Pokemon in the tier that have absolutely no reason to go mixed besides other Flareon who can OHKO you. Going -Def (-SpD is not an option ever) is also not very optimal because you need all of the survivability you can get since you have the capability of OHKOing every Pokemon in the tier sans Vaporeon.

[voodoo pimp]

Ugh, must have messed up the calculations, I had Fire Fang doing a lot less when I checked it before. You're right, then.

[Sidfrid]

Originally Posted by Fat Age of Kings

Going -Def (-SpD is not an option ever) is also not very optimal because you need all of the survivability you can get since you have the capability of OHKOing every Pokemon in the tier sans Vaporeon.

Survive what (in the physical side)?,
Umbreon's payback:

0 Atk Umbreon Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Flareon: 127-151 (38.02 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Leafeon Return?

252 Atk Leafeon Return vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Flareon: 167-197 (50 - 58.98%) -- 78.52% chance to 2HKO

Leafeon have a good chance at killing it since Flareon can't switch in. But you have to remember that this is not called "Flareon against the world", you have 2 others pokemon at the time on flareon side's. You can swicth (or rotate) in you own Umbreon to take the hit and toxic opponent leafeon. (i made the calc's again using Honko manly calc, do you activated gust in you calc's?)

On other note, we identified three possible threat:
Dual Screens Espeon
SD Leafeon, and
Hail/Snow Cloak Glaceon

My question is, do they share any counter? or we have to prepare for two and being completely sweeped by the third one we din't prepare for?

[blarajan]

Originally Posted by Fat Age of Kings

....breaking out the damage calcs, are we? CB Adamant Eevee does 48.6% - 57.1% with QA to 0/0 Jolteon and Espeon. Eviolite Eevee does 31.4% - 38.6% with QA and barely misses the OHKO with Return.

Flareon does a clean OHKO with Facade (141.4% - 166.4%), Fire Fang most of the time (98.6% - 116.4%, clean OHKO on 0/0 Leafeon and Glaceon), though QA misses the 2HKO (40.7% - 48.6%). Superpower is a clean OHKO on 252/0 +SpD Umbreon, 2HKO from Facade if you "mispredict". Bold 252/252 Vaporeon takes a hefty 54.4% - 64.1% from Facade. This thing is a monster behind screens with nothing but a Guts boost, 2HKOing every single Pokemon in the metagame. If you happen to pass a Curse boost onto this thing...

what part of that means eevee doesn't have the strongest priority? hmmmmm? flareon strongth, eevee has strongthest quick attack

[ConverseBob]

So I have been reading through this and was wondering something. How viable would Trick Room be? Only Espeon has access to it, and while it would all but cripple Espeon itself, would it not also give Flareon, Glaceon, and even Vaporeon, a shot at being a powerful sweeper?

The arguments for Flareon are all over this thread so I will not go into them here, just imagine all the good stuff from that power now with tied for the second fastest (behind only Eevee, who could also benefit from TR) in the meta.

While Glaceon's move pool is rather limiting, access to signal beam and your choice of STAB, hits most of the meta for at least natural damage, and if you really wanted to you could add water pulse for Flareon coverage.

Vaporeon has the higest HP of anyone allowed, and with a special attack stat beat only by Espeon and Glaceon, you have the potential for a bulky tank after the speed boost from Trick Room.

While it may not be the best strategy, it certainly could prove to be an effective counter to Chlorophyll Leafeon, and anyone wearing a scarf. Plus the surprise factor may just be enough to help out.

Just a thought.

[Zacchaeus]

Originally Posted by Fat TheMantyke

Leafeon

• Strong physical defense isn't the most helpful when you're going against so many special attackers.

Fixed. As much as I hate rotation battles, this type of tournament suits my fancy very well. I really think that any use Eevee gets will be quite underwhelming. Focus Sash will rarely be used and Eevee's Quick Attack is hardly stronger than any other Eeveelution's while missing out on another valuable STAB and otherwise better movepool and BST. Bug and Fighting (followed by Ground and Rock) are the best attacking types in this grouping, none of which receive STAB, but will bring lots of use to Signal Beam, X-Scissor, HP Fighting, and Superpower

[Age of Kings]

@blar: I should have clarified strongest viable priority. :P Eevee technically shouldn't exist. And it needs CB to outdamage Flareon with only Quick Attack. I suppose the point was that Eevee needs CB to outdamage Flareon with one move (Return does less than Flareon's kit) and that it should only be used to troll.

@Zacc: I think rotation battles are very interesting as it makes the whole thing less about 1 on 1 matchups and think more along the lines that all of the opponent's team is literally on the field at the same time. Combined with the fact that it is restricted to the Eeveelutions rather than going all the way with general GBU rules and the usual staples taking over makes it more fun imo.

Originally Posted by Fat Sidfrid

Survive what (in the physical side)?,
Umbreon's payback:

0 Atk Umbreon Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Flareon: 127-151 (38.02 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Leafeon Return?

252 Atk Leafeon Return vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Flareon: 167-197 (50 - 58.98%) -- 78.52% chance to 2HKO

Leafeon have a good chance at killing it since Flareon can't switch in. But you have to remember that this is not called "Flareon against the world", you have 2 others pokemon at the time on flareon side's. You can swicth (or rotate) in you own Umbreon to take the hit and toxic opponent leafeon. (i made the calc's again using Honko manly calc, do you activated gust in you calc's?)

On other note, we identified three possible threat:
Dual Screens Espeon
SD Leafeon, and
Hail/Snow Cloak Glaceon

My question is, do they share any counter? or we have to prepare for two and being completely sweeped by the third one we din't prepare for?

Is that -Def? First of all, Umbreon stands no chance against Flareon whatsoever. It is OHKO'd by Superpower unless it goes 252/252 Impish which is a bad idea, 2HKO'd most of the time by Facade counting Leftovers (it faces competition from Vappy for Lefties with item clause), and fears the nasty side effects from Fire Fang. I recognize that Flareon can't switch into Leafeon, but Leafeon can't switch into it either. If sun isn't up you can have Espeon or Jolteon threaten the revenge kill. I do recognize that you have two other Pokemon; that's why you set up Reflect in addition to having all of those HP EVs so you don't get taken down so easily by Leafeon or whoever else stands in your way and you wait for a good opportunity to send it in and wreak havoc. The main purpose of posting those calcs was to prove that Flareon is a beast and should not at all be underestimated. It's not Flareon vs. the world, yes, but it has a good chance at taking down everything else and I was pointing it out. Personally I like it when a normally trash Pokemon has a chance to shine.

And I used the onsite Smogon calculator. I'm not sure why you think I didn't have Guts on since it's doing so much. ?_? Did you also factor in the fact that Facade has 140 power after the status boost?

EDIT;; Magic Bounce screens Espeon is very hard to beat and I would expect it to be a standard lead; the best solution is perhaps an opposing Trick choiced Espeon. I don't know if you can switch Choiced moves when you rotate out or you're stuck for the rest of the battle, though. Manual Hail Glaceon hits like a truck against unprepared teams but it loses the benefit of a Choice item and it's pretty slow. SD Leafeon is a great threat but prone to revenge kills by Bug-wielding Espeon and Jolteon, which is rectified by Chlorophyll in the sun. CB Leafeon in the sun is viable also, though contingent on how Choice works in rotation battles. I should test that out lol

[Sidfrid]

Originally Posted by Fat Age of Kings

Personally I like it when a normally trash Pokemon has a chance to shine.

Flareon is my all-time favorite eeveevolution (though i don't use it, even in NU), and yes that is my own Lonely Flareon.

About a Trick-Choiced Espeon sound like a cool idea, since the standard Espeon is the double screens one and less used the CM one. You can surely cripple it, since the pokemon is keeped in a "semi-active" state and you can't switch move if you don't actually switch it out.

Poor Glaceon, relegated as a dark horse, at most.

[milkthug]

I'm really excited for this eevee cup, I'm just in the process of getting my team together at the moment and can't wait to see how the tournament as a whole plays out. In fact I finally got around to signing up on the forums here just so I could join in on the EC discussion.
My Japanese is slightly above average at best, so I've had a little trouble scouring the EC rules - how many pokemon per part? I know it's rotation battle but do we use 3 or 6? I've done a lot of digging around and can't actually see it mentioned anywhere.

[tlyee61]

Originally Posted by Fat milkthug

I'm really excited for this eevee cup, I'm just in the process of getting my team together at the moment and can't wait to see how the tournament as a whole plays out. In fact I finally got around to signing up on the forums here just so I could join in on the EC discussion.
My Japanese is slightly above average at best, so I've had a little trouble scouring the EC rules - how many pokemon per part? I know it's rotation battle but do we use 3 or 6? I've done a lot of digging around and can't actually see it mentioned anywhere.

IIRC you use all 6 of your Pokemon

[milkthug]

I re-read the rules and it looks like you're allowed 4-6 pokemon.

What's going to be the most likely opener? Espeon throwing up walls? Would it be worth opening up with an Umbreon running Taunt just to keep the immediate setups under control?

[Age of Kings]

If it's anything like how it works in PWT, you have three on the field at the same time that you can rotate around and you have one other you can switch in for a total of four Pokemon. I have not played a legitimate game yet but I would imagine screens Espeon to be a pretty popular lead, perhaps weather Jolteon or something choiced also. The way rotation works means that having a formal lead is pretty useless since rotating gives no penalty like a switch does (taking up your turn) so anything you have out can have the potential first move. Taunt is a bad idea because Magic Guard bounces it back and the things that set up don't fear Umbreon too much.

[milkthug]

Ah, my bad. Totally blanked on taunt being bounced. What would be a good way to open that could potentially capitalise on the likelihood of people wanting to wall/weather up right away?

[JacobNinja]

Honestly I can see choice band adaptability eevee as a real dark horse. It hits ridiculously hard with return, and has the strongest priority with quick attack. it is also the only physical pokemon, so it will probably hit the common walls hard.

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat JacobNinja

it is also the only physical pokemon

Flareon and Leafeon say hi (and Umbreon too, if you're running a Curse set). And Flareon's Quick Attack hits nearly as hard (and a Guts-boosted Facade hits harder than Eevee's Return) along with having other useful attacks and better speed and bulk, so Eevee is still mostly outclassed.

[milkthug]

Originally Posted by Fat JacobNinja

Honestly I can see choice band adaptability eevee as a real dark horse. It hits ridiculously hard with return, and has the strongest priority with quick attack. it is also the only physical pokemon, so it will probably hit the common walls hard.

Yeah, except choice band is banned in Eevee cup.

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat milkthug

Yeah, except choice band is banned in Eevee cup.

I was under the impression that the only banned item was Soul Dew (for some reason). Where'd you hear this?

[Shiny Koopa]

I'm definitally not as smart as you guys, but I wonder how good Eevee with Double Edge would be. Having the extra power over Return/Frustration might be nice, but I don't know.