DuskMod: A major modification to the standard metagame - Page 4

Arizona · Nov 21st, 2012, 2:29:51 PM

We've started to transfer over discussion of pokemon from the voting page to their own pages, which are intended to develop into "strategy pokedex" pages, with an overview, a list of sets, teammates, and checks and counters. This feels early to me, but then everything I say about even pokemon that I've used feels premature. In any case it has been a productive platform for discussion and appraisal so far, so extending it makes sense.

Reposting link for convenience:
http://piratepad.net/viabilityorganizationanddraft

Unrelatedly, I was pleasantly surprised how viable Parasect turned out to be atm. Part of this is the sleep change, as the message "X is about to wake up" makes it a simple matter to time Spore, Sub, and attacking, but those 85/125/90 defenses are a shocking improvement the first time you see it in battle, and a lot of pokemon, both offensive and defensive, are stopped cold by sub-seed. The quad weaknesses don't mean much if Parasect has a sub already. It gets an effective 270bp attack against grass types (X-Scissor) and quad resists grass too, so no dice simply blocking Leech Seed with your own grass type. 80 Speed beats many good walls, letting you Sub on Umbreon and Spore on Weezing for example.

***Zarel**** · Nov 23rd, 2012, 12:10:22 AM

As the guy working on NEXT, I wanted to clarify the differences here.

There are a lot of mods like DuskMod, mods that change up base stats, movepools, and moves to put pokemon on a more even playing field.

That's not what NEXT is. The trick is in its name: "NEXT" means "next-generation", something that Game Freak could plausibly do. NEXT restricts itself to plausible changes Game Freak could make:

Base stats can't change. The type chart can't change. Ability distribution can't change. Typing can only change in very specific circumstances. Movepools can only be added to, not removed from. And core game mechanics like freezing and critical hits can be modified, but never removed entirely.

Because of that, NEXT's balancing efforts are very similar to Game Freak balancing efforts: it's focused on adding new things, and in some cases, changing existing moves/abilities/items.

A good example of how NEXT balancing works is Cherrim: we thought, "Game Freak had an idea for a dedicated Sun support Pokemon. How do we make that OU-viable?"

TheOnyx · Nov 25th, 2012, 3:15:59 PM

SD E-Speed Sawsbuck is basically E-Killer in OU. It's just awesome, but not that broken since any ghost type with Focus Blast kills it

Arizona · Nov 25th, 2012, 5:51:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat TheOnyx

SD E-Speed Sawsbuck is basically E-Killer in OU. It's just awesome, but not that broken since any ghost type with Focus Blast kills it

Which is basically just Gengar, lol. But there are the bug/steel types and Weezing. Sash Alakazam and Ditto do fine, and there are checks that work against HJK but not Nature Power, and vice versa. Despite that, Sawsbuck is borderline S Rank for me. Teams want a strong priority move so badly to have a chance when the opponent sets up, so Sawsbuck is a set up sweeper and anti-sweeper in one.

~~Oiawesome~~ · Nov 25th, 2012, 6:17:10 PM

Tornadus I is the defenition of good,it can run multiple sets effectivly(versitillity) it has 115/125 offenses that destroy and are great overall and has a exellant 101 speed tier wich outspeeds a pleathora of pokemon and kills them off,and has a AMAZING abillity in regenerator wich lets it be immune to its own SR Weakness!and also dosent give a shit about LO recoil.overall he is like DM Genesect or Tornadus T but better as their is Almost Absolutely no reason not to use it and it fits on almost any team,If we had to pick the closest to perfect pokemmon in DM OU so far it would have to be Tornadus I.

TheOnyx · Nov 25th, 2012, 9:27:29 PM

Aerodactyl is awesome with CB no recoil Head Smash. Meloetta is cool with the new Lunar Dance mechanics too, since i basically gets a Special DD

Rayquaza_ · Nov 26th, 2012, 4:40:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Zarel

The trick is in its name: "NEXT" means "next-generation", something that Game Freak could plausibly do.

I'm sorry, but what part of this

Quote:

Quiver Dance now grants +1 SpD +1 Spe +1 accuracy.

Bug/Flying Quiver Dancers get an item named GossamerWing (select "Stick" in the teambuilder). It negates the Flying weaknesses (take half damage from Rock, Ice, and Electric moves, and SR), and adds +1 SpA back to Quiver Dance.

looks like something Game Freak might implement in the next generation? We all know it isn't going to happen.

On the other hand, who says that GF will never rework things like type chart and stat distribution? Both already occurred in the transition from RBY to GSC so it might happen again.

It's a nice mod and all, but in the end it's just your own interpretation of a balanced metagame, just like the others.

Level 51 · Nov 26th, 2012, 6:30:25 AM

It appears you have the wrong thread; this thread is for DuskMod, not for Gen-NEXT. These two are different mods by different users.

Have a nice day!

tehy · Nov 26th, 2012, 6:31:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

I'm sorry, but what part of this

looks like something Game Freak might implement in the next generation? We all know it isn't going to happen.

On the other hand, who says that GF will never rework things like type chart and stat distribution? Both already occurred in the transition from RBY to GSC so it might happen again.

It's a nice mod and all, but in the end it's just your own interpretation of a balanced metagame, just like the others.

The part where gamefreak's only changed around the type chart once, right after their first game, and never touched them since, but has added custom item many times? And it's never, ever reworked stat distribution, except for the switch-over to the EV an IV system?
There are even custom items that interact with types of moves (Lustrous orb, adamant orb), and ones that grant different forms (Griseous orb). And of course there's the plates and multitype. This is just a new application, really.

Arizona · Nov 26th, 2012, 10:02:06 AM

Yes yes, the differences and similarities between DM and NEXT are all very fascinating, but let's not get diverted too much.

More people have steadily been appearing on the server due to word of mouth (or text) as much as this thread. We may enter a noticeably exponential phase of growth within the month before tapering off as general interest saturates. To facilitate this, I think our goals for the next couple of weeks should be:

1 Post replays here. Many replays. Watching battles is easier and more entertaining than reading and memorizing a changelog. Nevermind this, can't be done on DM server.

2 Post a Warstory or narrate a log on video. This will draw attention from other areas without being gratuitous advertising.

3 Continue adding sets and ranking votes. Considering there are no usage stats this is the only way for newbies to quickly find good pokemon. Moreover it is a valuable visual record of our progress developing the metagame and demonstrates that we intend to be playing DM into the foreseeable future, i.e. not becoming a dead meta.

4 Post an RMT. This will introduce newcomers to significant new sets while being a good exercise for "veterans" analyzing teams as a whole rather than single pokemon or pairs of good teammates. It won't be possible to make a legitimate RMT without a complete threatlist, but in the near future I think we will have a good guess at the power of every pokemon.

Additionally, we ought to create a suggestion box to get balance concerns, bugs, and just good suggestions to Dusk efficiently. I see no reason not to just use a ppad for this. Chat is disorganized, PMs would get annoying, and neither would permit the full community to discuss everything.

neptunianity · Nov 26th, 2012, 3:14:58 PM

I have a suggestion Dusk. At the moment DM is not particularly varied. Basically every team is offense, with one ore two defensive pokemon. Occasionally you'll see a weather team, but apart from that, DM is very unvaried. I suggest introducing a few pokemon with the ability persistent. Persistent was an ability on the CAP pokemon Fidgit, and it increases the duration of gravity, trick room, heal block, safeguard, and tailwind by two turns. I feel this would increase the variety in the metagame, and make DM more fun in general.

DTC · Nov 26th, 2012, 4:11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat neptunianity

I have a suggestion Dusk. At the moment DM is not particularly varied. Basically every team is offense, with one ore two defensive pokemon. Occasionally you'll see a weather team, but apart from that, DM is very unvaried. I suggest introducing a few pokemon with the ability persistent. Persistent was an ability on the CAP pokemon Fidgit, and it increases the duration of gravity, trick room, heal block, safeguard, and tailwind by two turns. I feel this would increase the variety in the metagame, and make DM more fun in general.

While this would indeed be cool, it is illogical to do this for the rationale of making defensive teams better, because all of those moves promote different variations of offense. Besides Heal Block and Safeguard, which are both useless regardless of Persistent or not.

~~Oiawesome~~ · Nov 26th, 2012, 6:43:15 PM

Also stall is very viable,You just have to make a good team.I mean back in the day Dusk 3-0d me with his stall team vs my HO team,Many pokemon are good and also cores of stall are amazing in DM Such as :Regen. Tangrowth+ Blissey etc. Ill update this with a lot of stall cores and such.

~~Oiawesome~~ · Nov 26th, 2012, 6:57:53 PM

Im not done Im going to add the cores when Im om my com.(Im on my tablet now iirc)and I can add icons but that is a very nice core though.

iiZqHD · Nov 27th, 2012, 4:26:13 PM

I guess ill take over making a list of cores for DM
Ill have it organized. If you have an idea for a core go here to suggest it.

Defensive

...

Balanced

...

Offensive

...

~Masquerade~

~~Oiawesome~~ · Nov 27th, 2012, 6:21:33 PM

Im finishing this beforeI leave and Im going to decide if Im going to ses if I should in 1 week if someone convinces me its stupid,Ill stay.Also Im still making defensive cores wait,Goddamnit Im staying because masq(IIZQHD) will take over the defensive cores if I do.

iiZqHD · Nov 27th, 2012, 6:36:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Oiawesome

Im finishing this beforeI leave and Im going to decide if Im going to ses if I should in 1 week if someone convinces me its stupid,Ill stay.Also Im still making defensive cores wait,Goddamnit Im staying because masq(IIZQHD) will take over the defensive cores if I do.

Im not just doing defensive cores, im also doing balanced+offensive. Its okay Oi, i got this covered c;

~Masquerade~

The Dark Hero · Dec 2nd, 2012, 1:20:46 PM

I've just done a few battles, and I have to say, it's one of the most fun metagames I've played.

Also, Scizor needs Crabhammer.

Nollan · Dec 2nd, 2012, 9:30:39 PM

Not so sure on the whole Crabhammer thing, but I will say Scizor needs a buff of some kind. It's just not the monster it used to be now that Shadow Tag Chandelure is running amok in the tier. I was thinking more along the lines of speed and attack buffs, but Crabhammer would help some.

Magolor · Dec 3rd, 2012, 2:24:06 PM

Crabhammer scizor would be a big buff to scizor. It could function as a sort of lure to chandelure, tries switch in for the easy kill, then Bam! Crabhammer kills it! Attack and speed buffs wouldn't be too bad, however.

Ride The Lightning · Dec 3rd, 2012, 8:55:53 PM

Holy shit. Looks like I'm late to this party. I have a similar project I've been working on since May, but never made it public until now. Do you mind I can copy the formatting and organization of your changelog to mine?

The Dark Hero · Dec 3rd, 2012, 10:48:10 PM

And plus, hey, Scizor has crab-like pincers. It works.

The Dark Hero · Dec 4th, 2012, 10:01:02 AM

I go to DuskMod server, and I'm immediately disconnected. Is there work being done on the servers. new stuff being implemented?

Nollan · Dec 4th, 2012, 12:46:59 PM

The server is only up as long as Dusk's computer is on. In general, it will be down during the normal school hours for his time zone. He gives more details on that in his post at the top of page 1.

The Dark Hero · Dec 4th, 2012, 6:53:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Nollan

The server is only up as long as Dusk's computer is on. In general, it will be down during the normal school hours for his time zone. He gives more details on that in his post at the top of page 1.

Ohhhh... I forgot about that.

Nov 23rd, 2012, 12:10:22 AM	#77
*Zarel >> BEGIN POSTBIT Super Moderator** Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,170 >> END POSTBIT	As the guy working on NEXT, I wanted to clarify the differences here. There are a lot of mods like DuskMod, mods that change up base stats, movepools, and moves to put pokemon on a more even playing field. That's not what NEXT is. The trick is in its name: "NEXT" means "next-generation", something that Game Freak could plausibly do. NEXT restricts itself to plausible changes Game Freak could make: Base stats can't change. The type chart can't change. Ability distribution can't change. Typing can only change in very specific circumstances. Movepools can only be added to, not removed from. And core game mechanics like freezing and critical hits can be modified, but never removed entirely. Because of that, NEXT's balancing efforts are very similar to Game Freak balancing efforts: it's focused on adding new things, and in some cases, changing existing moves/abilities/items. A good example of how NEXT balancing works is Cherrim: we thought, "Game Freak had an idea for a dedicated Sun support Pokemon. How do we make that OU-viable?" __________________ Pokemon Showdown \| Replay player \| No, I am not impressed that you know that my name is Guangcong Luo. The PS website says "Copyright Guangcong Luo" at the bottom, ffs.

Nov 25th, 2012, 3:15:59 PM	#78
TheOnyx Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 38 Mer'ca	SD E-Speed Sawsbuck is basically E-Killer in OU. It's just awesome, but not that broken since any ghost type with Focus Blast kills it __________________ http://i.imgur.com/hSQ7n.gif Death Virus on PS! and MOOTOO on PO Last edited by TheOnyx; Nov 25th, 2012 at 3:35:00 PM.

Nov 25th, 2012, 9:27:29 PM	#81
TheOnyx Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 38 Mer'ca	Aerodactyl is awesome with CB no recoil Head Smash. Meloetta is cool with the new Lunar Dance mechanics too, since i basically gets a Special DD __________________ http://i.imgur.com/hSQ7n.gif Death Virus on PS! and MOOTOO on PO

Nov 26th, 2012, 6:30:25 AM	#83
Level 51 Now available in GMT+1! Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 778 Location: Singapore ^.^	It appears you have the wrong thread; this thread is for DuskMod, not for Gen-NEXT. These two are different mods by different users. Have a nice day! __________________ Ice 9: an RU RMT !kiddmewtwo: your still a bitch and this whole server is ass without blue gastrodon [15:59] <&@chaos\|away> i hence forth make it official: im better than arcticblast [15:59] <&@chaos\|away> spread the word

Nov 26th, 2012, 10:02:06 AM	#85
Arizona Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 50	Yes yes, the differences and similarities between DM and NEXT are all very fascinating, but let's not get diverted too much. More people have steadily been appearing on the server due to word of mouth (or text) as much as this thread. We may enter a noticeably exponential phase of growth within the month before tapering off as general interest saturates. To facilitate this, I think our goals for the next couple of weeks should be: 1 Post replays here. Many replays. Watching battles is easier and more entertaining than reading and memorizing a changelog. Nevermind this, can't be done on DM server. 2 Post a Warstory or narrate a log on video. This will draw attention from other areas without being gratuitous advertising. 3 Continue adding sets and ranking votes. Considering there are no usage stats this is the only way for newbies to quickly find good pokemon. Moreover it is a valuable visual record of our progress developing the metagame and demonstrates that we intend to be playing DM into the foreseeable future, i.e. not becoming a dead meta. 4 Post an RMT. This will introduce newcomers to significant new sets while being a good exercise for "veterans" analyzing teams as a whole rather than single pokemon or pairs of good teammates. It won't be possible to make a legitimate RMT without a complete threatlist, but in the near future I think we will have a good guess at the power of every pokemon. Additionally, we ought to create a suggestion box to get balance concerns, bugs, and just good suggestions to Dusk efficiently. I see no reason not to just use a ppad for this. Chat is disorganized, PMs would get annoying, and neither would permit the full community to discuss everything. Last edited by Arizona; Nov 27th, 2012 at 3:40:38 PM.

Nov 21st, 2012, 2:29:51 PM	#76
Arizona Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 50	We've started to transfer over discussion of pokemon from the voting page to their own pages, which are intended to develop into "strategy pokedex" pages, with an overview, a list of sets, teammates, and checks and counters. This feels early to me, but then everything I say about even pokemon that I've used feels premature. In any case it has been a productive platform for discussion and appraisal so far, so extending it makes sense. Reposting link for convenience: http://piratepad.net/viabilityorganizationanddraft Unrelatedly, I was pleasantly surprised how viable Parasect turned out to be atm. Part of this is the sleep change, as the message "X is about to wake up" makes it a simple matter to time Spore, Sub, and attacking, but those 85/125/90 defenses are a shocking improvement the first time you see it in battle, and a lot of pokemon, both offensive and defensive, are stopped cold by sub-seed. The quad weaknesses don't mean much if Parasect has a sub already. It gets an effective 270bp attack against grass types (X-Scissor) and quad resists grass too, so no dice simply blocking Leech Seed with your own grass type. 80 Speed beats many good walls, letting you Sub on Umbreon and Spore on Weezing for example.

Nov 25th, 2012, 6:17:10 PM	#80
~~Oiawesome~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 165	Tornadus I is the defenition of good,it can run multiple sets effectivly(versitillity) it has 115/125 offenses that destroy and are great overall and has a exellant 101 speed tier wich outspeeds a pleathora of pokemon and kills them off,and has a AMAZING abillity in regenerator wich lets it be immune to its own SR Weakness!and also dosent give a shit about LO recoil.overall he is like DM Genesect or Tornadus T but better as their is Almost Absolutely no reason not to use it and it fits on almost any team,If we had to pick the closest to perfect pokemmon in DM OU so far it would have to be Tornadus I.

Nov 26th, 2012, 3:14:58 PM	#86
neptunianity Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 17	I have a suggestion Dusk. At the moment DM is not particularly varied. Basically every team is offense, with one ore two defensive pokemon. Occasionally you'll see a weather team, but apart from that, DM is very unvaried. I suggest introducing a few pokemon with the ability persistent. Persistent was an ability on the CAP pokemon Fidgit, and it increases the duration of gravity, trick room, heal block, safeguard, and tailwind by two turns. I feel this would increase the variety in the metagame, and make DM more fun in general.

Nov 26th, 2012, 6:43:15 PM	#88
~~Oiawesome~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 165	Also stall is very viable,You just have to make a good team.I mean back in the day Dusk 3-0d me with his stall team vs my HO team,Many pokemon are good and also cores of stall are amazing in DM Such as :Regen. Tangrowth+ Blissey etc. Ill update this with a lot of stall cores and such.

Nov 26th, 2012, 6:57:53 PM	#89
~~Oiawesome~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 165	Im not done Im going to add the cores when Im om my com.(Im on my tablet now iirc)and I can add icons but that is a very nice core though.

Nov 27th, 2012, 6:21:33 PM	#91
~~Oiawesome~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 165	Im finishing this beforeI leave and Im going to decide if Im going to ses if I should in 1 week if someone convinces me its stupid,Ill stay.Also Im still making defensive cores wait,Goddamnit Im staying because masq(IIZQHD) will take over the defensive cores if I do.

Dec 2nd, 2012, 1:20:46 PM	#93
The Dark Hero Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 60	I've just done a few battles, and I have to say, it's one of the most fun metagames I've played. Also, Scizor needs Crabhammer. Last edited by The Dark Hero; Dec 2nd, 2012 at 1:37:52 PM.

Dec 2nd, 2012, 9:30:39 PM	#94
Nollan Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 39 Earth, Milky Way	Not so sure on the whole Crabhammer thing, but I will say Scizor needs a buff of some kind. It's just not the monster it used to be now that Shadow Tag Chandelure is running amok in the tier. I was thinking more along the lines of speed and attack buffs, but Crabhammer would help some.

Dec 3rd, 2012, 2:24:06 PM	#95
Magolor Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 57 WHERE AM I?	Crabhammer scizor would be a big buff to scizor. It could function as a sort of lure to chandelure, tries switch in for the easy kill, then Bam! Crabhammer kills it! Attack and speed buffs wouldn't be too bad, however.

Dec 3rd, 2012, 8:55:53 PM	#96
Ride The Lightning Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 213	Holy shit. Looks like I'm late to this party. I have a similar project I've been working on since May, but never made it public until now. Do you mind I can copy the formatting and organization of your changelog to mine?

Dec 3rd, 2012, 10:48:10 PM	#97
The Dark Hero Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 60	And plus, hey, Scizor has crab-like pincers. It works.

Dec 4th, 2012, 10:01:02 AM	#98
The Dark Hero Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 60	I go to DuskMod server, and I'm immediately disconnected. Is there work being done on the servers. new stuff being implemented?

Dec 4th, 2012, 12:46:59 PM	#99
Nollan Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 39 Earth, Milky Way	The server is only up as long as Dusk's computer is on. In general, it will be down during the normal school hours for his time zone. He gives more details on that in his post at the top of page 1. __________________ Feel free to pay of visit to: play.pokemonshowdown.com/~~nollansfactory