np: NU Stage 7 - Free Bird

[tennisace]

Honestly, I don't think Hail will be that terrible (but I'm fully opening myself to the possibility that at some point in the future I will have to eat crow). I just think that Hail should be giving its fair shake in the metagame, given that there are a lot of good checks to Hail still in this tier (Regice, Regirock, Klang, Lickilicky, etc).

Note that I'm not saying it won't be a huge force in the metagame, because it 100% will be. It was back when it was allowed in Round 0, and while the tier has drastically shifted since then, it will still be a major force. I just don't think it will be broken as a whole. There might be Pokemon that are broken in the tier, and there very well may be Pokemon that move up a tier or two because of it (Rotom-F I'm lookin at you), but as a whole I don't think it should just be quickbanned and written off.

One Pokemon I really don't buy the hype for right now is Stallrein, given that there are a few Pokemon who run Rock Blast commonly, which really puts a damper on it's effectiveness. There is also still a lack of good spinners in the tier, so Toxic Spikes can definitely limit it's ability to sit there and be fat for turns on end.

[Brammi]

Warein is actually also the scariest thing for hail. 8x resist to ice is pretty good you know.

[Amarillo]

You must be really into torturing yourself if you use Walrein without Toxic spikes~

A theorymon:
Most hail teams, especially if using Ice Body sets, would use Garbodor, which mitigates the Fighting weakness, Tspikes, Tspikes absorption, and other nice gooey stuff. Snover and Rotom-F would be almost obligatory (Rotom-F is so good in UU with hail <_<), but a choice of Articuno / Glaceon / Regice would also be viable. And fix off your weaks with the last two slots. 3 Ice types is more than enough trouble for a team. If not running Ice body + tspikes stuff, using Duosion > Musharna will be a thing again! (Which, btw, will beat opposing Stallrein + Tspikes teams with ease)

Hail could be interesting~

[Brammi]

Articuno is terrible for hail teams. Evasion clause bro. I think offensive teams would go for something like Snover, Garbodor, Rotom-F, Glaceon, Kadabra, Probopass

[Axa]

Would it be out-of-place to discuss a potential Roselia drop? It could serve as an interesting Toxic Spiker for Hail teams - aside from standard spiking duties, it also absorbs statuses, can act as a cleric, and provides a counter against bulky Waters. The other problem, of course, would be that she compounds a Fire weakness, unless one was running Lapras or Walrein (haha Dewgong).

[DTC]

Roselia's ability to counter Water-types is much less important on hail teams. You may not realize it, but Snover actually does really well against most Water-types, thanks to its Ice / Grass typing. It is one of the few things that Snover is good at accomplishing.

I would love to see hail in NU right now. It would be an interesting playstyle to use and it doesn't have that many benefits to get along with it. Blizzard, Ice Body Pokemon, and extra 6.25% damage is nice, but lets be honest: it really isn't that grand. In exchange for the benefits, it has to deal with a mediocre Pokemon and numerous compounded weaknesses.

[tennisace]

Originally Posted by Fat Brammi

Articuno is terrible for hail teams. Evasion clause bro. I think offensive teams would go for something like Snover, Garbodor, Rotom-F, Glaceon, Kadabra, Probopass

Good luck breaking through Lickilicky with that crew. Even with Toxic Spikes, Licki can just run Heal Bell and sit there and not die ever. Same with Regice, though Regice vs Rotom-F is a standoff. What you really need on that team is either a Sawk or a Gurdurr over Kadabra: something to take advantage of opposing bulky Rock, Steel, Normal, and Ice-types.

[Ewil]

Once the Hail is up, you only need Solosis and Duosion to open great holes in the opponent's team (except he has a ghost-type, but in any case they have 2 other slot for crippling them) and then, you can just destroy the rest of the opponent's team with the Blizzard Spammers and is game.
Yeah i know that this doesn't always happens, but that's a dangerous playstyle, pretty unhealthy.

But, in any case, we don't have this problem yet :P

Articuno is terrible for hail teams. Evasion clause bro.

What's the problem ? He has Pressure and two amazing STAB move in Hurricane and Blizzard and this last is 100% accurate with Hail. Not counting his amazing Special Bulk and good Defense. He can fits perfectly in a Blizzard Spam team if Hail comes to NU.

EDIT:

Wait ! I think i'm missing something ! Today i saw an user running Hail Snover in a NU battle. Can someone explain this ? I really think i'm missing something maybe happen in RU or UU, idk

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat Zebraiken

By a vote of 1-10, Braviary will not be banned from the NU metagame (nor will it be suspected any time soon). We will not host another suspect test until significant changes in the metagame occur.

I suppose I get to eat my words within two weeks of saying them.


Anyway, in case you guys haven't followed recent happenings, Snow Warning has recently been unbanned in UU. You can read through their council's reasoning for the unbanning here. Now, because Snover was in NU when the original ban was put in place, we had to determine the tiering of Snover and you can find the results of that discussion here (a lot of the deliberation came outside of that thread, via IRC). The result is this: Snow Warning Snover is now NU.

This means a few things for us. Firstly, I'd like to deal with suspect testing etc before the month wraps up. There is a slight chance that Snover will move back up to UU in usage by the time January rolls around, but in the case that it doesn't, I'd like to ensure that we're not dealing with a potentially broken aspect of our metagame in major tournaments (namely, SPL). My rough plan is to give Snover about two and a half weeks of play, and then I'll put up a suspect thread where we'll talk about stuff for a few days and I'll need votes from those that have earned them by the end of the month. I am no fan of quickbanning anything - please don't jump ahead and start saying that Snover or hail is broken itt or anywhere until the suspect thread is posted.

In regards to earning a vote - I'm a bit lax with activity of our voters usually, but since we're trying to deal with this quickly and efficiently, I will be strict with whether or not you qualify for a vote. There is no other way around this: If you want to vote on Snover, you must make significant contributions to discussion in this thread and the suspect thread throughout the round, and actually play on the ladder (there will be an alt identification thread). This applies to current Senate members as well; you will not be able to vote if you are unable to significantly participate. I am open to anyone becoming eligible to vote via rotating council (explained more in this thread), given that you prove yourself to be intelligent and experienced in NU. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me via VM or on IRC.

Suspect testing aside, feel free to use this thread to discuss sets you find effective in the new metagame, what you see on the ladder, etc. There is no discussion but good discussion. :)

[Sweet Jesus]

I haven't tried snover yet, but I've faced three hail teams this morning and they are definately going to have a huge impact on the metagame. I believe rotom-f will be the best hail abuser with his incredible dual stab, good speed and 100% acc blizzard. Unfortunately, his defensive capacities are kind of redundant with snover's.

Talking about snover, the thing is a cool way to deal with some very aggressive water types such as ludicolo and gorebyss, so he won't be complete dead weight on a team.

I'm not going to call hail broken right now, but the residual damage really makes a difference when used correctly, and as we previously discussed, NU has good ice type mons maybe because their typing scares players of higher tiers. However, if hail get's banned, I think it will mainly be beacuse there is no other permanent weather in NU. The fact there will barely ever be any weather war means ice types are sure to keep big pressure till the end of the match. I already see a potential combination of mold breaker sawk keeping rocks off the field with rotom-f destroying everything and volt switching to sawk against other ice types like regice.

I'll try hail soon, and post more when I do.

[JirachiCelebiMew]

I've toyed around in NU this morning before going to school, and saw 7 NU teams. That is so much. I haven't got around to making my Hail team yet (Was waiting for Zeb to allow Snow Warning Snover, thought it would be tomorrow) and was supposed to make today, but hey, I guess I can make it now.

One Pokemon I will definitely be using is Gothorita. With the release of Mold Breaker Sawk who's getting real popular, Gothorita can just switch into Close Combat, assuming it is Choiced (I've seen two E-Belts in my life, and one LO), and can just laugh at it. It's crucial for Hail teams that mainly use Ice types that are weak to Fighting types. Goth can also successfully take out Gurdurr as well. The problem with inserting Goth into Hail teams is that you have 4 more team slots to cover the most of the metagame, and that will be the challenge for me. What are the Pokemon that can work well in NU Hail?

[ium]

okay the cookie-cutter hail team so far seems to be something along the lines of snover / sawk / rotom-f / glaceon or walrein / duosion / something for sr or toxic spikes.

i have been using hail, and it has not proven to be too overbearing so far. there is, without a doubt, a huge impact on the metagame caused by hail (i.e. musharna not being able to set up as easily, prominent water-types now being checked) but we have enough things that keep hail in check, such as emboar, sawk, regice, and others.

sawk is really interesting in this metagame. it's both a blessing and a curse for hail users. in one aspect, it can potentially remove hazard users and things that check ice-types. on the other hand, it can threaten out ice-types as well. it's really a shame that rotom-f outspeeds sawk, but it is still threatening without a doubt.

this leads up to my next point: many hail teams are utilizing duosion. in fact, every NU regular i've been talking to on #neverused has been using duosion on their hail teams so far. it is now the premier choice band sawk check seeing as how it has reliable recovery whereas musharna can't use moonlight to full effect anymore. duosion is definitely a good pokémon that will be seeing more usage, but i don't like its uses outside of that. it can stop stallrein and some things that use status without having to rely on heal bell like musharna, but they are usually a non-issue anyway.

snover is cool because it checks water-types i guess. not much to say about it aside from the usual stuff like faster subseed helping keep stuff from setting up easily, etc. i agree with others though—snover has some uses right now. but with things like snover and regice becoming more popular, we definitely won't be seeing as much ludicolo, gorebyss, and seismitoad over time.

also choice specs glaceon fucking wrecks.

[Kayo]

I actually came across the new unbanning with Snover in NU from just actual gameplay. I didnt hear of the ruling until I looked into because I quite confused to find permaweather in our Tier.

That being said I have already fought a good number of snow teams already just today. (I have yet to build a hail/anti-hail team but I will in the next couple days.) The thing that I found most interesting about this new pokemon is the reemergence of a move I feared that I would never see again. "Endeavor"

I have fought two teams already that was fully committed to just straight up focusing on using level one pokemon. I have seen a team of (Granted this team was RU but the same tactics apply) Cleffa, Clefairy Solosis and Duosis teaming up with Snover. The first three pokemon were all the same thing. Magic Guard Level one Pokemon with a Sash and Endeavor. Kind of the way the "Sand Aron" works hits you so you would get 1 HP and then hail will knock you off. The NU teams I fought they had the entire same set up just without Clefairy, but this time Duosis just trick room so my unprepared normal NU team got obliterated by the Endeavor Hail.


This all being said I am probably most saddened by the inevitable nerf that Mursharna is going to get with all of this. I absolutely loved using her on my teams. CMing on most pokemon with ease and healing all my others with H. Bell. But now with Hail and Moonlight becoming pathetic it looks like she has climaxed and she is seeing her top of tier status slowly fade away and can't do much about it. Everyone is going to go back to Magic Guard Duosis and it is such a shame because I always believe Mursharna deserves at least a consideration for a spot every new team.

[zbabyovr9000]

Definitely seeing what everyone else is seeing, especially the rise of Duosis and fall of Musharna. Duosis is a huge threat that is really hard to muscle through from the physical side (as ium said, checking cb sawk which is so important), and you have to really catch it before it sets up on the special side (iirc specs Glaceon handles it nicely, provided you switch in immediately). Skuntank is a hard stop to Duosis.

For hail abusers, I've only tried Glaceon and Rotom-F and just from playtesting they really seem like the two best. I've always been kinda meh about Stallrein, but I've only tried it in OU so I can't really talk yet. For Snover, I run an offensive sash (as a lot of others do to), because it can usually at least dent something on the other team. I remember in UU suspect Snover couldn't even do that, so I won't complain.

Also I'm seeing a lot of non-hail teams running hail counter mons; a team like Piloswine / Rotom - F / Skuntank / Garbodor, with some other stuff that I forget wrecks hail.

[Kayo]

We could also see a rise of Thick Fat Miltank for a while over the popular Sap Sipping one that is used to counter Amoongus. But however, when Contrary Serperior comes out trainers will have to make the ultimate decision about Miltank. Get prepared for the Hail with Thick Fat, or get ready using Sap Sip for the going to be popular Serperior with Contrary?

[ium]

Originally Posted by Fat Kayo

We could also see a rise of Thick Fat Miltank for a while over the popular Sap Sipping one that is used to counter Amoongus. But however, when Contrary Serperior comes out trainers will have to make the ultimate decision about Miltank. Get prepared for the Hail with Thick Fat, or get ready using Sap Sip for the going to be popular Serperior with Contrary?

miltank shouldn't be the end-all-be-all check to ice-types. regice is fucking fantastic in this metagame and can check the same things thick fat miltank would. then there's piloswine who does not really care about what rotom-f throws at it aside from will-o-wisp. just now, i have been trying out rock slide over ice shard to do reliable damage to rotom-f and snover; there have been other people using stone edge / rock slide on piloswine already. finally, for stalling walrein / glaceon sets, you can use cinccino or resttalk regice. a duosion can work out too since it doesn't mind status, although it needs a few boosts to take on attacks from the likes of glaceon. it's really easy to fit these on most teams to be honest—they're all good.

anyway, i'm curious to as what you guys have been running on snover. snover isn't really useful, but of course it's good to at least try to make as much use out of it as possible. i know some of us have been trying out odd sets like choice scarf, choice band, and other things while personally i have been using an offensive subseeding set. however, a bulky or specially defensive snover would actually be nice as a check to some rain threats.

[Wobble]

Originally Posted by Fat Kayo

We could also see a rise of Thick Fat Miltank for a while over the popular Sap Sipping one that is used to counter Amoongus. But however, when Contrary Serperior comes out trainers will have to make the ultimate decision about Miltank. Get prepared for the Hail with Thick Fat, or get ready using Sap Sip for the going to be popular Serperior with Contrary?

Contrary Serperior doesn't seem to be coming any time soon.

And with the consideration that Snover only needs a 3.5 percent usage rate in RU, it may be long gone by that time unless it is just so utterly underwhelming in RU that it's not used outside of gimmicks.

[JirachiCelebiMew]

Yeah, so I've been using the Snover set that I've posted on ''Project NeverUsed: Revival'' with Protect over Sub like DTC suggested. It works pretty well.

One thing I want to talk about is Tentacool. This 'mon is so underrated, yet very strong in Hail. He can lay Toxic Spikes, spin for the team, and take Fighting, Fire, Steel and some other stuff that my team is weak to. My team can hit for super-effective damage Ground-types that he's weak to. One problem is that now, with Sawk and Tentacool, I have two uncovered Psychic weaknesses, and I don't have any place for Skuntank / Absol on my team...

Here's the Tentacool set for those who want to use it:

...

---

Tentacool (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Giga Drain / Knock Off / Sludge Wave
- Surf

Soooo underrated. Calm Nature means he can take Special hits like a boss, while EVs focus on Physical hits. He's a nice check to Samurott, and especially Rain Ludicolo, as he resists Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. Ludicolo can try using Giga Drain, but with LO recoil + Liquid Ooze recoil, he'll take a beating as well. The 3rd moveslot is pretty much up to you. You can either use Giga Drain for some recovery, Knock Off to get rid of Gurdurr or Sludge Wave to laugh at Tentacool. I suggest either Knock Off or Sludge Wave, but it's really your choice. You really don't want Scald over Surf because Scald can burn the target, making Toxic Spikes utterly useless. He can also reliably check Gurdurr, resisting all it's moves except the rare Payback, and can switch into Drain Punch and Knock Off it's Eviolite.

[Zebraiken*]

so i've dropped about three different alts onto the leaderboard yesterday/today (and proceeded to get owned on all three of them as soon as i get them on there...) but i actually haven't used snover itself yet. not particularly enjoying the changes that it's bringing about though; there are like a gazillion sawk everywhere now and while cb mb sawk is usually a force to be reckoned with, without musharna (hail cutting moonlight drastically alters its effectiveness) there are basically 3 things that can switch in and reliably counter it. between two similar teams, the winner is often usually whoever just gets their sawk out first and begins decimating the other team. i've won multiple matches by sending out sawk first and clicking cc as they go to duosion, then just ccing again as they try to double switch into piloswine and then just going to town with rotom-f. it sucks. u__u

anyway, a few things that i've used and have seen others use to great effectiveness in the current metagame:

- sub + protect offensive ice body glaceon. i've watched people stall out all sorts of stuff like choice-locked emboar, rotom-f, etc and it's still incredibly strong. protect is invariably useful since so many things are using choice items atm, and free recovery is always nice. i have yet to use this myself but honestly i'd imagine it's the most effective glaceon set available, given that it still retains a really strong blizzard and has other utility outside of that.

- stone edge piloswine. best sr setter in this metagame, hands down. reliably switches into and beats just about every ice-type ever, and using stone edge lets you 2HKO all of them at worst. it's especially useful as a full-stop to rotom-f, since everything else you'd use to deal with it can just be volt switched out of. i don't even have anything else to say apart from the fact that piloswine is an absolute monster, even moreso than the last like three times i've posted about it. seriously, use pilo more!

- cb cinccino. lo cincy probably works just as well, but i find that the extra recoil really takes a lot out of you when you're already taking hail + hazard damage from u-turning in and out. i'm honestly not a big fan of cinccino but it's just excellent in the current metagame, especially since its standard counters (lairon probo bastio tangela alomomola regirock) are strongly discouraged by the hail abusers and sawk. it disrupts just about every really popular offensive pokemon right now and really only has troubles with scarfers. if you want to use anything out of this list i'm giving you right now, i'd recommend cincy.

- samurott in general. sd samurott has generally faded from its dominance and was considered inferior to special samurott by most top players (or at least the ones that i talk to) for a little while, but right now i think that sd samurott has all the tools it needs to be incredibly successful, and a lot of the stuff that it traditionally struggles with isn't even on the ladder. i've played idk 50 matches yesterday and while i saw a good mix of hail and non-hail teams, alomoonguss is just so thoroughly destroyed by rotom-f and friends that i'm pretty sure i saw a grand total of one of each on the ladder. special samurott isn't too shabby either, although i don't think it picked up as much slack as sd rott did after the changes; it now can reliably use blizzard and ludicolo is somewhat rare (and dealt with by hail).

there's a ton of other really effective / popular stuff i haven't posted here like mb sawk, duosion, etc. i actually got dominated by a pretty well-built sun team earlier and really struggled with a rain team as well - these are probably going to be really effective given that a good chunk of teams are going to rely on hail to get things done, so if you've ever wanted to build a full-blown weather team i'd reckon now's the time!

[EBeast]

@JirachiCelebiMew

I don't think you should be relying on Tentacool that much for taking Fighting- and Fire-types all that much. In particular I'm referring to Sawk and Emboar who both utterly obliterate Tentacool. Hell even Swords Dance Samurott (who has more liberty in the metagame of Snover and crippled Amoonguss with unreliable Synthesis) can defeat Tentacool as a Swords Dance Waterfall does tons to it and Tentacool's Giga Drain does awful damage.

• 252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs 252 HP/200 Def Eviolite Tentacool: 50.7% - 59.86% (2 hits to KO)
• 252 Atk Choice Band Emboar Flare Blitz vs 252 HP/200 Def Eviolite Tentacool: 50% - 59.15% (2 hits to KO)
• 252 +2 Atk Life Orb Samurott Waterfall vs 252 HP/200 Def Eviolite Tentacool: 50.35% - 59.15% (2 hits to KO)

Anyways now that I have been playing around with Hail for a bit I can give my opinion about it. The Hail provided by Snover is very powerful as it makes Pokemon such as Rotom-F and Glaceon absolutely incredible. I think Snow Warning will fit just fine in NU for a few reasons. The benefits to having Snow Warning are that the hail decreases the effectiveness of Synthesis/Moonlight, Snover is a counter to Ludicolo and Special Samurott, and that the Hail buffs Blizzard to 100% and gives Glaceon, Rotom-F, and even Walrein a powerful STAB move. By limiting Synthesis and Moonlight recovery it puts a hamper of Amoonguss and Musharna, two powerful forces in metagame. In a way it sort of "balances"(not that they were broken before) them out further such as in the latter's case where teams without Absol or Skuntank were generally deemed weak to Musharna. By limiting Musharna's recovery it relieves a lot of pressure on teams as Musharna cannot abuse its amazing bulk the same way anymore as it will now only heal 25% per pop. Ludicolo's counters in there metagame are really just Mantine, Regice, and Snover, and now that Snover has more uses including cancelling out Ludicolo's Rain, it will also put a damper on another powerful force in the metagame. However the fact still stands that you are forced to use a Snover if you want to get the violent snowstorm rolling. While Snover has a cool niche in beating Ludicolo and Gorebyss, it's still just acceptable and not exceptional as Stealth Rock and lack of recovery outside of Leech Seed wears it down constantly even against the previously mentioned Pokemon. If you want to abuse to Hail you'll bring a Snover and 1 or 2 abusers which compounds the weakness that the Ice-type Pokemon share. This makes you naturally weak to Emboar, Braviary, SD Samurott, and Sawk; which are already not easy to deal with in the metagame.

Duosion is already showing considerably more usage due to the fact that it has Magic Guard and Recover over Musharna. However Duosion is no Musharna, and their bulk is not really comparable. Musharna's bulk is considerably better than Duosion and because of this even teams without Skuntank and Absol don't really have as much trouble with Duosion as they would with Musharna.

[FLCL]

i really enjoy using sub split rotom-f as my main sweeper on hail teams since it has ridiculous power and coverage while being able to avoid status and somewhat heal itself. so many pokemon in the tier are weak to its coverage moves that once you remove piloswine, regice, and other rotom-f, it can plow through a team with little trouble. choice band emboar or sawk are some of the best partners to use with it since it can smash the aforementioned threats. on the other hand, rotom-f breaks down counters such as fillish, alomomola, and musharna, to an extent.

[Sidfrid]

Originally Posted by Fat FLCL

i really enjoy using sub split rotom-f as my main sweeper on hail teams since it has ridiculous power and coverage while being able to avoid status and somewhat heal itself.

I think I battled you, I remember the only sub split rotom-f I found in the ladder, I lost to blaze activated emboar.

Ok, now what I found as main counters to hail (-stall) team are:

1-) Specially defensive Ampharos, this sheep can come in any blizzard, put light screens and reduce the damage output for 8 turns. I really just fought one of those, but was a real pain to take down. If you don't have something faster, is almost sure Amphy will get it screens up.

2-) Bastiodon, Eviolite Metang (and almost any other steel-type), those guys are impervious to blizzards they can setup rocks by almost for free and PP stall blizzards like there is no tomorrow, this is kind of remedied with Sawk firing of CC, but you need to be carefull since rotom-f outspeed Sawk and maybe revange kill it.

3-) Trace Gardevoir (and the less popular Trace Porygon), by tracing Ice body from mains staller or tracing magic guard from Duosion, this woman became an inmense treath just by switching in.

4-) Emboar, the substitute variants are getting popular, now behind a sub you will surely have to sacrifice something in order to kill this fiery pig, but in the meanwhile he is scoring KO's with STAB'ed Superpowers. I hate it.

5-) And the bane of any stall team: Taunt users, not your common taunt users (misdreavus, skuntank, etc) but completely unawares ones (fast as hell vanilluxe btw).

I want to make clear that the Tier is funnier that ever!, With all the originality running rampant (uncommon movesets on common pokemons), I really want to see how this will evolve.

[FireMage]

Originally Posted by Fat FLCL

i really enjoy using sub split rotom-f as my main sweeper on hail teams since it has ridiculous power and coverage while being able to avoid status and somewhat heal itself. so many pokemon in the tier are weak to its coverage moves that once you remove piloswine, regice, and other rotom-f, it can plow through a team with little trouble. choice band emboar or sawk are some of the best partners to use with it since it can smash the aforementioned threats. on the other hand, rotom-f breaks down counters such as fillish, alomomola, and musharna, to an extent.

I agree, I'm using a Sub Split Rotom-F and it's working wonders for me. it hits hard and sits at a relatively alright speed tier and can come in on predicted Earthquakes and then proceed to Blizzard things out of the sky.

Originally Posted by Fat Zebraiken

not particularly enjoying the changes that it's bringing about though; there are like a gazillion sawk everywhere now and while cb mb sawk is usually a force to be reckoned with, without musharna (hail cutting moonlight drastically alters its effectiveness) there are basically 3 things that can switch in and reliably counter it. between two similar teams, the winner is often usually whoever just gets their sawk out first and begins decimating the other team. i've won multiple matches by sending out sawk first and clicking cc as they go to duosion, then just ccing again as they try to double switch into piloswine and then just going to town with rotom-f. it sucks. u__u

Sawk han't been too much off a problem for me. Ive not faced a lot, but usually by playing round it with Pilo/Gurdurr I can achieve an easy KO.

Originally Posted by Fat Zebraiken

stone edge piloswine. best sr setter in this metagame, hands down. reliably switches into and beats just about every ice-type ever, and using stone edge lets you 2HKO all of them at worst. it's especially useful as a full-stop to rotom-f, since everything else you'd use to deal with it can just be volt switched out of. i don't even have anything else to say apart from the fact that piloswine is an absolute monster, even moreso than the last like three times i've posted about it. seriously, use pilo more!

I agree with this Pilo is awesome. I run SR/Stone Edge/EQ/Ice Shard and has no problems tearing holes and getting those important revenge kills vs faster Chloropyllers (with a bit of prior damage) failing that, take a hit with Glaceon then blizzard. (I usually save Snover so I can Sac it later on, when I need to)

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat FireMage

Sawk han't been too much off a problem for me. Ive not faced a lot, but usually by playing round it with Pilo/Gurdurr I can achieve an easy KO.

Really? How do you play around it when it cleanly 2HKOes Gurdurr (CC does 64.17 - 75.66%) and OHKOes Piloswine (it even OHKOes max/max+ 90% of the time after SR)? I guess you can try to stall for a few CC drops and then try to pick it off with priority, but the primary issue is that nothing bar Ghost-types, bulky Poison-types, and Musharna / Duosion can even tank more than two consecutive Close Combats after SR. A majority of the Poison-types and a few Ghost-types (namely Haunter and Golurk) also have to worry about Sawk's coverage moves, and obviously Musharna's effectiveness has been cut thanks to a sudden lack of quality recovery. If you're picking it off with Piloswine and Gurdurr, what in the world are you using to actually switch into it?

[FireMage]

Originally Posted by Fat Zebraiken

Really? How do you play around it when it cleanly 2HKOes Gurdurr (CC does 64.17 - 75.66%) and OHKOes Piloswine (it even OHKOes max/max+ 90% of the time after SR)? I guess you can try to stall for a few CC drops and then try to pick it off with priority, but the primary issue is that nothing bar Ghost-types, bulky Poison-types, and Musharna / Duosion can even tank more than two consecutive Close Combats after SR. A majority of the Poison-types and a few Ghost-types (namely Haunter and Golurk) also have to worry about Sawk's coverage moves, and obviously Musharna's effectiveness has been cut thanks to a sudden lack of quality recovery. If you're picking it off with Piloswine and Gurdurr, what in the world are you using to actually switch into it?

As long as I could get Piloswine in without prior damage I've been alright.

Scarf Calcs

---

Scarf Calcs
Jolly
252 Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 306-362 (75.74 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Adamant
252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 336-396 (83.16 - 98.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 145-172 (38.77 - 45.98%)
252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 160-189 (42.78 - 50.53%)

I've not yet encountered a choice band variant which is good - I'd be swept probably.

As long as it's not banded and you can get in without prior damage, you can easily tank a CC and hit back with an EQ for the KO (hail will probably finish it off if you have got it up) I usually have already let it kill Snover just so I can get the kill on it.