np: UU Stage 10 - Suspect Test Round 1 - Let it Snow

[kokoloko*]

Okay, all the votes are in, but I don't have the energy to c/p all the paragraphs right now. The result is a surprising unanimous decision to unban hail. I'll talk to Zarel about reinstating the standard ladder with hail allowed as soon as he can and I'll edit this post (or maybe make another one) with all the paragraphs tomorrow night.

Here you go:

RT.

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Unban Hail

I’ve done extensive testing with Hail teams, and I can say with certainty that the playstyle is not imbalanced in this metagame. With Abomasnow, Snow Cloak, and Mamoswine no longer in the tier, Hail is only just barely viable. Every Hail team is forced to run Snover, an extremely mediocre Pokemon that has very little use beyond starting weather. Furthermore, the metagame revolves heavily around Fire- and Fighting-types, all of which pose a significant threat to Hail teams. Due to Ice's poor defensive typing, Hail teams have to run multiple counters to these threats, which usually leaves room for two Ice-types at most. (One of which must be Snover) As a result, the residual damage from Hail ends up working against the user because Pokemon like Swampert, Qwilfish, and Blastoise depend on Leftovers recovery to stay alive. Moving on to the actual abusers of Hail, all of them have shit typing and gain nothing other than the ability to use Blizzard instead of Ice Beam. A few, such as Glaceon and Walrein, benefit from Ice Body, but that hasn't stopped their performance from being subpar. Moral of the story: Hail isn't broken, unban that shit.

Upstart

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Unban hail Let it snow!

Based upon testing, hail has taken a great fall from power. The fall has rendered hail only competitively viable, far from inherently broken. Since the previous ban, hail has lost the ability to utilize abomasnow, heavy hitters like mamoswine, and absurd abuse of snow cloak. Snover simply can't compensate for abomasnow. Aboma provides many benefits to teams beyond starting weather. Unfortunately snover's middling stats prevent snover from providing the same support to teams beyond starting weather. Compound this problem with the loss of snow cloak. Without snow cloak hail is no longer blessed with free turns to cause havoc.
In the current metagame, hail has divided itself into the play styles of hail stall and hail offense. Both prove viable but in no way broken. Ice's poor defensive typing simply cannot with stand the scourge of fire and fighting types. This places a heavy strain on teams that rely on ice pokemon. Thus hail teams are unable to stock up on hail abusers as they have to marginalize their weakness to top UU threats. This creates the balancing flaw to both of hail's play styles as parts of the team themselves are hindered by hail.
Thus Unban snow warning as it's summoner has been nerfed, no snow cloak abuse, and the meta's ability to compensate for the power of hail.

FlareBlitz

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Hail is not imbalanced in this metagame because a) it relies on an carrying an incredibly bad Pokemon just to set up hail b) the residual damage it causes often compromises the survivability of its own members c) hail "abusers" essentially consist of mediocre Pokemon being able to use STAB Blizzard - an attack which is just as powerful as Fire Blast, Megahorn, and Close Combat with arguably worse offensive typing d) the metagame is heavily oriented around Fighting, Fire, and Steel types, all of which cause hail severe problems as a playstyle.

This could all conceivably change when certain tier shifts happen (like Chandelure getting Shadow Tag and leaving us, Abomasnow dropping, Mew possibly getting banned) so hail is a topic we may have to revisit. But for now, it's clearly not broken.

Windsong

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Unban Hail

Hail has nothing but a positive effect on the UU metagame, increasing diversity in the tier while allowing a few more playstyles to become relevant than in the pre hail metagame. More importantly, Hail is far from broken in the current UU metagame. Offensive hail teams fall easily to the variety of common Fire- and Fighting-type threats in the metagame, or if they opt for a more balanced route and put in a defensive backbone strong enough to avoid being demolished by many common threats, they lack the power to beat down other (non hail) offense teams. In fact, Hail offense doesn't really have much of an impact, as teams can't stack too many STAB Blizzard users without automatically being weak to a number of common Pokemon, and the worst that well made Hail offense is bringing to the table is a few Pokemon with Blizzard over Ice Beam.

Stall in UU is difficult enough to pull off as is, and defensive Hail falls into a similar boat. It has to spend a teamslot on the semi useless Snover, only to gain little benefit besides an extra 6.25% damage per turn versus most teams (at the cost of their own Leftovers being nullified). This simply isn't worth it in a tier where teams are hard pressed to cover all the common threats as is, and it leads to teams being made with easily exploitable holes if they choose to run Hail.

To conclude, Hail does nothing but good for UU at this time. It adds a nice level of variety to the metagame, making a few more teamstyles playable, is far short of being broken, and is overall an excellent addition to the tier.

PK Gaming

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I wanted Hail banned in UU because I didn't like the idea of having Auto-weather in the UU tier, nor did I like the idea of players winning with hail by spamming a bunch of hail abusers and winning. That's not really the way to think though. Testing has shown that BW UU2 is durable & fast enough that Hail does not need to be banned. Sure, the Blizzspam strategy is easy in execution and basically rewards you for click Blizzard, but its got several significant flaws that keep it from dominating. The biggest flaw with Hail by far is Snover. Snover is utterly terrible. Hail teams more or less operate with 5 Pokemon + Hail because of how useless Snover is. Admittedly, I got some mileage out of Choice Scarf Snover spamming Blizzard, but that was the only set I got to work and it was still very bad. BW UU2 is very anti-hail; Snorlax is everywhere, and the vast majority of hail sweepers are straight up beaten by Snorlax, Fire-types and Fighting-types are also extremely common in UU, and they basically get to fire off their STAB moves and get near-guaranteed kills against hail teams. Hail teams want to get the most out of their auto-weather, so hail abusers like Rotom-F, Walrein, etc are par for the course. However, Hail teams that stack on hail abusers only compound their weaknesses. Opponents can capitalize on this against a hail players by utilizing their Fighting and Fire type to mess with hail teams (most of which don't even have checks to them). Ice-type Pokemon also have a nasty Stealth Rock weakness, and while running a rapid spinner might alleviate that weakness, UU is a tier that makes it very difficult for players to Rapid Spin. There's little point to running a hail team that barely abuses hail because a little residual damage on everything isn't worth losing a team slot. With Hail teams, I noticed that building one basically comes down to the classic stability vs immediate power decision. In my experience, the best hail teams were the ones that relied on few hail sweepers and prioritize on making their team sturdier. (Slowbro/king is really good on hail for example.) Even then, well built hail teams are still riddled with flaws (you can't build a hail team that doesn't suffer from at least one of: Snorlax, Fighting-types, Fire-types and a rampant Stealth Rock Weakness) that keep it from dominating. I played the hell out of hail and I noticed it didn't really win me matches as much as i'd like it to, It was too inconsistent for my liking. Blizzspam ends up being a crapshoot against stall, or balance that has Snorlax and (or) Fire-types. I think the combined experience of everyone on the ladder have shown that hail is extremely overrated since some of suspect players straight up stopped using hail. With Abomasnow (a Pokemon that was extremely powerful on its own) and Snow Cloak (an ability that basically broke Froslass) banned, there's little reason to keep hail banned as it stands right now.

Unban hail

Pocket

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Unban Hail: After extensively playing with UU Hail during this suspect round, I realized that the playstyle is not taking UU by storm. Powerful Blizzard spammers like Rotom-F benefits enormously from Hail. However, the current state of UU is unkind to them, being vulnerable to the top threats that are innumerable Fighting- and Fire-types. Snorlax and Stealth Rock are also common elements of this meta that keeps STAB Blizzards in check.

Among the shortcomings of Hail, the unconditional requirement of Snover is the biggest limiting factor of them all. Snover is simply too slow and too fragile, and is oftentimes relegated as death fodder after ensuring the hailstorm. Although it can be an alright check to Water-types, it's more of a liability, a necessary shit for the powerful Blizzards.

I find Hail to be a powerful playstyle that adds a new element to UU, but hardly an overpowering one. Maybe this playstyle might need to be re-visited if Abomasnow ever drops down to UU, but until then let's keep it.

DestinyUnknown

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After doing some playtest, I have come to the conclusion that hail isn't overpowered in the current metagame. While it's certainly true that Hail was broken when it got banned months ago, it's been severly nerfed since then, and it isn't what it used to be.

The main flaw every Hail team has, whether it is offensive or defensive, is Snover. This just couldn't be stressed enough, but having to use Snover is a huge drawback that is often not worth it, considering how terribly useless Snover is in every match. Furthermore, the benefits of Hail are just not good enough to make Snover worth using.
On one hand, defensive Hail teams can't abuse Hail as good now that Snow Cloak is banned, which means the #1 Hail abuser, Snow Cloak Froslass, isn't available anymore. This leaves defensive Hail teams with only residual damage and Ice Body Pokemon to toy with; and considering the way the UU metagame is shaped currently and the little viability and effectiveness of defensive play, we can conclude that defensive Hail teams are simply put, far away from being broken.

On the other hand, offensive Hail teams or ''BlizzSpam teams'' while dangerous, are usually crippled by weaknesses to common attacking types and Stealth Rock. This usually turns out on having to reduce the number of hail abusers to fill their spots with pokemon that can check the major threats to Hail teams (think of Heracross, Chandelure, Snorlax, etc) which is easier said that done, taking into account that you only have 5 slots (''thanks'' to Snover) to deal with as many threats as you can while still being able to abuse Hail. In summary, offensive hail teams (and every hail team in general) are very restricted teambuilding-wise due to the amount of flaws they usually have, which makes them much less threatening, so I think Hail is a viable, yet balanced, playstyle in UU, and I'm voting Unban Hail

Metric

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Unban Hail

The recent suspect test has shown that Hail is no longer the giant that it once was. From both playing with and against hail, it becomes apparent that the play style lacks the edge it used to have. The banning of Snow Cloak is a huge boon for those fighting against Hail.

The current UU environment is not at all kind to Hail teams. Top tier threats such as Heracross, Raikou, Mew, and Darmanitan already cause regular teams plenty of grief, and are just as potent if not moreso against Hail teams.

It is hard enough to try and account for the threats that exist in UU with regular, non-Hail teams, but when you are down to 5 real free slots outside of Snover, the task becomes much more difficult. The reason being that Hail teams in their nature, in order to get the most of the playstyle require the player to:

• Try to be as offensive as possible with Hail aiding your assault, employing small defensive unit to keep things together. This is a high risk playstyle. Once your unit is taken out, which usually isn't that hard to do seeing as they have to cover so much, the rest of the team basically has to KO to survive.
• Forego the route of direct offense and attempt be as defensive as is possible, allowing Hail and hazards to break down the opposition. This however opens you up to the threat of boosting sweepers such as NP Mew or SD Cobalion, and your lack of offensive presence leaves you at the mercy of more offensive teams.
  
• "Balanced" Hail teams usually tend to not fare well, as they are neither here nor there and succumb to the offensive pressures of the opponent while not being able to do enough back.

In addition to this, one must realize that Hail teams will be looking to get the most out of the weather condition. However, getting the most out of Hail usually tends to boil down to "How can I make my team suffer less in Hail than my opponents?" More often than not it ends up being a double-edged sword.

Outside of using Magic Guard or Overcoat Pokemon, none of which are much to write home about outside of Sigilyph, by using Hail you gimp your defensive Pokemon by stripping them of leftovers recovery and hasten the demise of your offensive Pokemon by chipping off an additional 6%HP each turn. Or you can stack up on Ice Pokemon, increasing the number of (easily) exploitable shared weaknesses and Stealth Rock weaknesses, which is less than favourable to say the least.

So in closing, while the residual damage caused by Hail, and the random Blizzard freezes here and there can prove annoying, Hail is not game breaking and does not put any new constraints on team building. I believe that at present, any well built UU team is more than able to cope with whatever Hail teams may throw their way and as such I propose that Snow Warning is unbanned.

reachzero

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Unban hail

During this testing period, I found Hail teams to be viable competitively, but a far cry from overpowering. The primary hardship faced by Hail teams is that Snover is an extremely bad Pokemon; its terrible stats make it a horrible liability in a way that Abomasnow plainly was not (Abomasnow was individually excellent). Hail teams have to worry a great deal about accounting for Fire and Fighting attacks, which are extremely common in this metagame, and with essentially five-and-a-half Pokemon to use, the problem only becomes more pronounced. Generally, this means using fewer Ice-types: my most successful Hail team had "only" two, plus one other Pokemon using Blizzard. However, the fewer Ice-types are used, the less overall benefit the team derives from actually using Hail.
The overall impact of Hail is decidedly limited. The major reasons for Hail's previous dominance in UU were twofold: the first, as noted above, was that Abomasnow was individually a very strong Pokemon. The second is that Snow Cloak Froslass created tremendous problems for the metagame. Without Snow Cloak available anymore, courtesy of the evasion abilities ban, the only real ways to "abuse" Hail are by utilizing Ice Body Pokemon (Walrein and Glaceon) or by using offensive teams with many Blizzard users ("blizzspam"). The Ice Body Pokemon have been decidedly underwhelming when I have seen them, as defensive play in general is not especially effective in UU, considering the quality of the UU wallbreakers. Blizzspam is viable, but as noted above it tends to depend on one or two Pokemon very heavily to cover the repeated weaknesses of Ice-types, and as such cannot dominate easily the way Sand teams could, or Hail teams with Abomasnow could. Overall, Hail is balanced in UU at the present time, and should be retained in the metagame.

Ace Emerald

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Unban hail

As a play-style, Hail is nothing if not restrictive. Ice is the type that fairs best in the weather condition, escaping the extra passive damage and gaining powerful STAB Blizzards. However, Ice is just not a type that is easy to stack on a team. With Heracross as the new king of UU, and the addition of the powerful Mienshao and often underestimated Scrafty to the tier, strong Fighting types are rampant. Darmanitan and Chandelure are also as strong as ever, and are difficult enough to counter on non-hail teams. Hail teams often have several Ice-types (not to mention Snover, which takes an entire teamslot and doesn't contribute much if any to team synergy), and are forced to dedicate the many if not all of the remaining three or four Pokemon to countering these big threats. These necessary concessions take away from Pokemon that could otherwise help achieve the team's win condition, instead of just preventing sweeps by some of the most common Pokemon in UU. At the end of the day, it's tough to even have 2 strong Ice-types that can fully abuse Hail.

Because it is so difficult to stack Ice-types, the traditional Hail abuse, the effective use of Hail often requires a focus on the passive damage, rather than the 100% accurate Blizzards. While this can still be an effective strategy in the UU metagame, it doesn't have the raw power of spamming Blizzards. With only a few Ice-types (again, including the weak Snover), passive damage often effects both teams, and takes some work to abuse. However, the work can be done, and there have been a few very effective Hail teams in this suspect test. However, the teams were no more effective than a well crafted weatherless team. Hail doesn't force players to use it or risk having an inferior team, and a well built team doesn't provide an easier win than any other well built team. Hail is not broken, and should be unbanned.

My vote was actually Abstain due to not feeling secure enough in my ability to vote on this subject in an unbiased way. However, my vote didn't "matter" so its okay.

[Bent1ey]

Pretty interesting, I'm wondering if the results would've been the same if Abomasnow was actually around, specially considering that it may be dropping from OU one of these months...

I agree that the baning of Snow Cloak and the reliable fighting types in the tier played a huge type in weakening the archtype, so this vote seems like a nice consensus to see. Will we see more toxic spikes and Walrein in the near future or will hailstall vanish into oblivion? I'm eager to see how it goes...

[Pocket]

Originally Posted by Fat Dragoon124

Well. it looks like Abamasnow may come back next month, at the rate it's going. This will probably give hail a bit more of an edge, but if hail starts causing a problem, which it isn't this time in my experience, we'll know who to blame.

This is an interesting point - if Abomasnow ever comes down to UU and end up causing problems, we can simply ban it rather than weather to keep status quo / preserve a playstyle.

[kokoloko*]

Tbh I don't believe Abomasnow alone would break hail if / when it drops.

[Turtle Soup]

I think Abomasnow would be fine in UU, cause with Snover I don't think we will be seeing many hail teams while with Abomasnow it could be much more prevalent however it probably wouldn't cause a problem. Actually there are currently a couple of OU mons that imo could fit quite nicely in to UU without causing an upset.

[JirachiCelebiMew]

With Hail unbanned, is it unbanned in the lower tiers (RU and NU) too?

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Originally Posted by Fat JirachiCelebiMew

With Hail unbanned, is it unbanned in the lower tiers (RU and NU) too?

I'm not sure, but I'm convinced that it is, because Snover is currently PU, so it is most likely allowed there as well.

EDIT: It is allowed in RU and NU as well.

[JirachiCelebiMew]

Actually, it's not in NU. :P I checked.

[kokoloko*]

It is now. We decided in Policy Review (which everyone should be able to see).

[FlareBlitz]

Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko

It is now. We decided in Policy Review (which everyone should be able to see).

Oh my god

I am so sorry, RU / NU.

[Kayo]

Originally Posted by Fat FlareBlitz

Oh my god

I am so sorry, RU / NU.

Hey guys, first time "Post-er" long time player. You guys might have seen me in PS with this name. If you see me on I am usually playing NU 9/10 times.


Now I completely understand the unbanning of Snover in the UU tier with the loss of Aboma and Snowcloak. In UU with his pathetic stats he basically sets up Snow and then dies out.


In NU's case however things are much different. With the unbanning of permasnow in the lower tiers I have seen the rise of "Level 1 Sand Aron" type gameplay, but now it's focus around snow. Today battling in NU I have encountered 4 straight battles where people have abused Magic Coat and Endeavor to their liking. People using Level 1 Cleffa Clefairy & Solosis all on the same team spamming MG & Endeavor.

To my point, as Flare said NU and RU might not be ready for permanent weather. Vulpix is not allowed in NU and we all know where Politoed is. The fact that people can spam Magic Guard with ease will cause a huge usage turn in Snover's Favor. I predict a huge increase in popularity and a possible rebanning of Snover in at least the NU tier.

And hey, the considered worst Rotom now might also get a huge upgrade with usage with 100% Blizzard. But hey what can I say. He seems likes a, wait for it, (Puts on Sunglasses) Cool Addition to any team.

[hilarious]

As much as I am disappointed by the decision to unban hail I am even more surprised by the reasoning. Not only did the vast majority of the paragraphs gloss over the fact stallrein alone can hammer hyper offensive teams, an entire play style, I don't think even once was there a mention of how easy it is to make a cookie cutter hail stall team (Snover/Walrein/Nidoqueen/Blastoise/Froslass/Filler) which cuts down on skill level on the ladder at least and encourages less diversity. Seriously I've seen at least 3 variations of that stall team not including my own...

But its not like anything is going to be done about that.

What do you all think of CM Aura Sphere Raikou? It can basically bypass Umbreon as a counter and defensive Snorlax (you'll have to hit offensive lax on the switch to not die instantly). It pretty badly messes with hail stall if you use hp ice and if you manage to weaken their Nidoqueen/Snover a little.

Also I have been using Scolipede like in 5 battles and its really cool when paired up with Heracross...its SD set is like insanely fast although I think Weavile might pair better with Heracross. But still OHKOing Mew before a boost? yes plz! so use more scolipede C:

[Ace Emerald]

Originally Posted by Fat hilarious

As much as I am disappointed by the decision to unban hail I am even more surprised by the reasoning. Not only did the vast majority of the paragraphs gloss over the fact stallrein alone can hammer hyper offensive teams, an entire play style, I don't think even once was there a mention of how easy it is to make a cookie cutter hail stall team (Snover/Walrein/Nidoqueen/Blastoise/Froslass/Filler) which cuts down on skill level on the ladder at least and encourages less diversity. Seriously I've seen at least 3 variations of that stall team not including my own...

I won't speak for all voters, but because I think an implied question deserves an answer, I'll post why I disagree with the specifics of this post. That cookie cutter stall team has a major flaw: the passive damage that makes it a possibility simultaneously cripples it. Take for example, the increasingly common duo of Scarf Mienshao and SD Heracross. Nidoqueen and maybe Froslass are the only Pokemon between that team and serious SD Cross trouble. Those are also they only Pokemon between this team and a Scarf Mienshao sweep. Froslass is OHKOed by Stone Edge if it's the offensive variant, and the defensive variant can't even 2HKO Heracross with Blizzard. Nidoqueen will never restore HP. Taking 25%-30% from HJK is nice, but that means Nidoqueens switch-in's are limited. Severally, as after just two switch-in's, Nidoqueen is KO'd by +2 Heracross. And this isn't even counting Chandelure, which can tear this team a new one pretty easily. Or offensive Snorlax, which can take pretty much anything from this team, and dish out nice damage. Or Mew, which can be really dangerous if Froslass is defensive (but Sucker Punch makes that moot for an SD set). I'm not arguing that this team can't beat the Pokemon I've outlined. It could if it was played smart. But that's exactly it, it requires good playing, not the mindless clicking you insinuate it takes. Furthermore, in my opinion anyways, spamming cookie cutter Hail Stall is no more annoying that spamming the cookie cutter balance teams that have cropped up. I know the situations aren't exactly parallel (Hail Stall revolves around one Pokemon, where the balance teams revolved around ~10), but honestly they are pretty similar. Just as those ~10 Pokemon that always show up on balance teams can do a lot more, Hail is by no means restricted to just Hail Stall. I haven't experienced/seen anything that convinces me Hail requires an excessive strain on teambuilding or stagnates the metagame any more than any other playstyle that is good.

[hilarious]

That's strange I thought I was subtle enough to get a free verbal strike against the unban decision without being called out on it.

Ok Ace Emerald all your points are 100% true but you missed the point I was trying to make because I wasn't clear. it doesn't matter to me if hail stall is broken in the sense that its way too good it matters to me in the sense i see a bunch of hail stall teams polluting the ladder even if they do suck and its because snow warning is allowed in UU.

Also i am still annoyed Walrein can easily destroy 5/6 or 6/6 of a standard ho team by itself, since when should one pokemon be able to beat a playstyle -.-

[Bent1ey]

Originally Posted by Fat hilarious

since when should one pokemon be able to beat a playstyle -.-

Well, since Prankster arrived Sableye is one nasty thorn in Baton Pass Chains/Stall teams in general, so there is a precedent of sorts.

[kokoloko*]

This just in:

Wonder Skin, in addition to blocking status inducing moves such as Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave 50% of the time, also blocks moves such as Roar and Taunt 50% of the time.

What this means for UU: Venomoth is even better now.

Discuss.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko

This just in:

Wonder Skin, in addition to blocking status inducing moves such as Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave 50% of the time, also blocks moves such as Roar and Taunt 50% of the time.

What this means for UU: Venomoth is even better now.

Discuss.

What the hell, are you serious?

Well shit, there goes one of the best methods of checking BP Venmoth. Venomoth is broken in UU, people just aren't abusing it for some reason, which is fine i'm not mocking you anyone who doesn't use it, it's just happened to slip under the radar for some reason. The loss of Tinted Lens is barely even that big of a deal since you aren't using Venomoth to sweep anyway.

:<

[silenced]

It is better, certainly, with wonder skin, but there still lies a problem in the timing of the pass. Whirlwind and roar still get rid of the BP recipient unless you feel inclined to pass to Xatu for some reason. Being able to have a decent chance of blocking taunt/sleep/paralysis is nice.

Its certainly an improvement, but i'm not sure it is that game breaking, especially if you are sacrficing the (pseudo) coverage tinted lens gives you.

[kokoloko*]

I guess you missed the part where I said:

Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko

This just in:

Wonder Skin, in addition to blocking status inducing moves such as Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave 50% of the time, also blocks moves such as Roar and Taunt 50% of the time.

This means Whirlwind is blocked too. That's kinda the whole point of the post.

[hilarious]

blastoise comes in venemoth already slept something decides to go and pass oh shit blastoise just used roar on the recipient gg

[kd24]

why would you baton pass out of an awake blastoise switching into a venomoth

thats like the dumbest thing ive heard this week, what else is blastoise going to do to a +1 or +2 venomoth...scald it? just bug buzz the blastoise and you have a pretty decent shot of them not being able to phaze you out

[kokoloko*]

Not to mention why are you even setting up if Blastoise is out of Bug Buzz KO range and/or you can't Sleep it? I mean the whole thing with Wonder Skin is that is essentially gives you a much higher chance of shitting on phazers even if Sleep Powder misses.

-__-

Anyway, Mew vote is done, read about it here.

Discuss.

[silenced]

Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko

I guess you missed the part where I said:

This just in:

Wonder Skin, in addition to blocking status inducing moves such as Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave 50% of the time, also blocks moves such as Roar and Taunt 50% of the time.

This means Whirlwind is blocked too. That's kinda the whole point of the post.

I realised that, but the point was the recipient of the boosts is phazed out, not venomoth itself, which I would rather think is the point of non-tinted lens venomoth baton passing.

[kokoloko*]

Your post was very unclear, js. Anyway, the idea behind Wonder Skin is essentially what kd24 said--you can now just stay in and have a good shot and not losing your boosts while you just kill Blastoise or do enough damage to it so that it can't stop you next time.

It also gives you a better chance to get away with a Sleep Powder miss and things of that sort.

[PK Gaming]

Glad to see that every council member voted dnb on Mew. I'm pretty sure it wasn't going to get banned anyway, but its refreshing to see that every council voter was on the same page :d

Anyway, the issue with WS Venomoth is that common phazers now have a chance of failing when attempting to remove Venomoth, which translates to a free hit per miss for Venomoth. If you get unlucky and miss multiple times, you risk losing the match straight up! That's bullshit. Now I realize that phazers aren't exactly common (all the more reason why I think Venomoth shits on BW UU), the fact they can now get screwed over by Venomoth is aggravating. Wonder Skin also trolls taunt users, but I can't think of many outside of support Mew.

koko edit: you can set up on froslass now lol

PK edit: I knew I was forgetting something.