Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

[The Great Mighty Doom]

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 28 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Punch

Toxicroak is an incredibly dangerous and underrated sweeper in BW2 OU. After one boost it can easily break through defensive teams, due to it's sky-high attack (when boosted), Fighting / Ice coverage, immunity to Toxic, immunity to Scald burns and water moves in general, ability to heal off all Life Orb damage and an extra 2.5% each turn (while under rain), ability to heal itself with it's powerful STAB etc. It can easily sweep offensive teams too, what it lacks in speed is made up for with it's powerful priority move: Sucker Punch. Overall, while Toxicroak may not have the best bulk or the best speed in the world, what it does have is great coverage, great priority, good typing that can help combat opposing rain teams, amazing ability, and a form of recovery in Drain Punch.

[Neliel]

I know pocket i was just explaining why it had Leftovers :x

[ClubbingSealCub]

Originally Posted by Fat The Great Mighty Doom

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 28 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Punch

I personally don't like Toxicroak because of two reasons - it sort of "forces" us to use a rain team and it becomes a liability if team 2 decides to use sun. I would honestly prefer a Lucario or even a Bisharp, since both of them have priority, swords dance and good coverage (Bisharp has STAB on Sucker Punch to boot).

[HackerKing]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Kyurem-B @ Leftovers
Trait: Terravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 136 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Hone Claws
- Dragon Tail
- Roost

Imagine SubRoost DDNite, but one that cannot be phazed out ;0 Meet SubRoost HC Kyu-B!

This set can carry teams. I have singlehandedly shuffle-swept a team (without hazards!) with this White Frost Dragon. It certainly pulls its weight, thanks to its immense bulk that allows it to survive Modest Landorus's Focus Blast and Specs Keldeo's Secret Sword! It's Substitute wont even break from Heatran's Lava Plume :D. There are simply way too many set-up opportunities for Kyurem-B - it will certainly pull some major feats in any game ;)

I like this set, but can you elaborate a bit more. Is this set's priority to accumulate as many boosts as possible as fast as possible, then proceed to spam Dragon Tail, or to use Dragon Tail often, boosting occasionally when possible?

[The Great Mighty Doom]

Originally Posted by Fat ClubbingSealCub

I personally don't like Toxicroak because of two reasons - it sort of "forces" us to use a rain team and it becomes a liability if team 2 decides to use sun. I would honestly prefer a Lucario or even a Bisharp, since both of them have priority, swords dance and good coverage (Bisharp has STAB on Sucker Punch to boot).

While it's true that introducing a rain sweeper into the team at the start is a little restrictive, is that really such a bad thing? Toxicroak is amazing under rain, so by restricting ourselves, we're kinda restricting the opposing team to running a weather of their own that isn't rain (they may decide against using weather at all, but this just means Toxicroak will be extra threatening.) Rain is also simply amazing in the current metagame and I think it would be a good idea to create a rain team. Yes, Toxicroak is bad against sun, but sun really isn't too great in the current metagame (especially with Gene gone) and there are alot of ways to hard counter common sun pokemon (eg. Shed Shell Heatran) and there are pokemon that can easily sweep common sun teams (eg. Sheer Force Rock Polish Landorus), not to mention strategies like hazards + spin blocking often spell doom for sun teams. And to be fair both Bisharp and Lucario aren't too great against sun anyway, as there are multiple fast fire types (especially considering if we run Lucario then they'll make sure their Ninetales outspeeds it) and multiple chlorophyll sweepers that carry fire-type coverage that'll make their lives hell. There are some pretty major problems with both Lucario and Bisharp in terms of coverage, standard Swords Dance Bisharp runs Fighting (Brick Break, which is weak and doesn't heal like Drain Punch does) / Dark coverage (Sucker Punch), that's just walled by so much in OU it's ridiculous. If Lucario doesn't run Bullet Punch, it's easily taken out by Terrakion, fast ghosts etc but if it doesn't run Ice Punch then it's walled by the likes of Gliscor, and if it doesn'r run Crunch then it's walled by the likes of Slowbro, Jellicent etc. Toxicroak doesn't have 4 slot syndrome like Lucario, it can have Dark, Fighting, and Ice coverage on the same set, while it's true that like Lucario's Extremespeed, Toxicroak's priority move doesn't hit the likes of Terrakion either, Toxicroak simpy resists Terrakion's dual STABs and then takes it out with Drain Punch. Toxicroak overall has much better typing and coverage and there are multiple reasons to use it over Lucario.

[Arcticblast]

I'm doing one of these. Possibly unpopular opinions ahead.

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

name: SubPetaya Empoleon
move 1: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam / Grass Knot
move 3: Agility
move 4: Substitute
item: Petaya Bery
nature: Modest
evs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe

SubPetaya Empoleon is an incredible set. It runs into a huge problem though - it either goes on a weatherless team and gets walled by bulky waters or it goes on a Rain team. We don't want to shoehorn ourselves into Rain this early on since Team 2 can easily just slap Ninetales onto the team.

Originally Posted by Fat DarkBlazeR

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Tailwind
- Roost

Throwing a bit of a curve ball here! Credit where credit is due.

Man, Katakiri has the most amazing sets sometimes... Anyway. This has the potential to be absolutely incredible, providing both team support and pretty terrifying offensive presence. It isn't Pursuit weak and its decent bulk lets it take a weaker hit or two. Why am I worried though? Fighting, Ice, Bug and Dragon are pretty common attacking types in OU. A particularly strong neutral attack can kill it pretty quickly too, especially if it's forced to attack instead of use Tailwind. That said, this set is awesome.

Originally Posted by Fat Phazon00

Agility Thundurus-T
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Grass Knot
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice
Item: Life Orb
Ability: Justified
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe!

I'd prefer Focus Blast over Grass Knot (as said before) and change the EV spread to Modest with 188 Speed; I've used it before and it just doesn't have the same sweeping power without Modest.

Originally Posted by Fat windwolf777

Zoro@LO/Scarf
Naive
32 Atk/224 SpA/252 Spe
(Now the evs can be swapped however but the attack should stay just because of the fact that sucker punch is an ohko on standard latias.)
-Night daze/Dark pulse
-Flamethrower
-Sucker Punch
-U-Turn

Zoroark is cool and Illusion is cool. Zoroark is tricky to use correctly though. If Team 2 does so much as pack Stealth Rock, the surprise can potentially be ruined.

Originally Posted by Fat ClubbingSealCub

Terrakion @ Rock Gem
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Substitute

When I was picking my submission, it was basically between this and Lucario - two of the hardest sweepers to stop in OU. I'd prefer Salac Berry, but hey, this is an awesome set.

Originally Posted by Fat gengarsnemisis

@
Breloom @ Fighting Gem
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Swords Dance
- Spore

The surprise factor intended with Fighting Gem is lost when the opponent knows it's there, and the slot used for Spore could probably be put to much better use. It's also a bit slow for something that is supposed to be difficult to counter; a Mach Punch resist can spell Breloom's doom if Sleep Clause is active.

Originally Posted by Fat Remedy

@
Nature Cure
120 HP / 172 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychock
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

What I don't like about Starmie is that even with LO it's just... weak. It really isn't that hard to handle (especially considering any bulky Water resists Water/Ice and probably can take Psyshock). Don't get me wrong, I love Starmie... It's just weak.

Originally Posted by Fat RedRascal

@ Life Orb
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Ice
- Rock Polish

Landorus is unlike Thundy-T in that it can get away with Timid because of Sheer Force. Not much else to say here except to back up that we'll also need a Mamo/Donphan/Weavile/[S]DELIBIRD[/HIDE] counter.

Originally Posted by Fat White symphoni

Fat Dragons Can be Strong
Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 60 SDef / 132 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Roost
- Dragon Claw

The only issue that I see with SubDD Dragonite is that it's rather easy to wall and/or phaze, but hey, it's solid.

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Kyurem-B @ Leftovers
Trait: Terravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 136 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Hone Claws
- Dragon Tail
- Roost

Damn, this is such a good set. It's like everything SubDDNite does but better! It outspeeds most common phazers so it's not at risk of being forced out, and as long as you get a chance to Sub after taking a hit you'll be okay. I would vote for this several times before SubDDNite.

Originally Posted by Fat Neliel Tu Oderschvank

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 68 Atk / 252 SAtk / 188 Spd
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

This presents my problem with Starmie in that it's a bit... weak, but the mixed attacking ability makes it better in my opinion, especially with its flexibility. I'd say Life Orb over Leftovers though.

Originally Posted by Fat NixHex

Scizor @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower

This set is such a bitch to face oh my God it's like "oh hey, CB Scizor" and you switch to something to take the U-Turn or BP and then BAM SWORDS DANCE and it punches a giant hole in your team. Yeah, SD Scizor is pretty solid.

Toxicroak: ...I'm not sure. On one hand I don't really like Toxicroak in the first place, but on the other hand it's pretty dangerous. I'm not going to comment on it; I don't have nearly enough experience with it.

I'm not going to talk about later submissions in this post. Maybe later.

[ginganinja]

While it's true that introducing a rain sweeper into the team at the start is a little restrictive, is that really such a bad thing?

Actually yes it is. The initial problem is that Team #2 simply picks Swift Swim Specs Kingdra, and then focus's on overloading whatever we attempt to use to counter said kingdra (Mag for Ferro, maybe Goth for Celebi etc etc). Part of the reasons Team #1 was successful last time, is that it was able to make use of rain, while still functioning outside of rain which made it difficult for Team #2. Did they risk selecting Kingdra even tho it would be a deadweight if we lacked rain etc etc. Its a thin line to walk, but Toxicroak really really needs rain to be effective, telegraphing our next choice, something Team #2 can easily counter (pick something that fucks with Toed + Croak then tack on Kingdra as your second choice and they now have momentum, dictating our team as well as a huge advantage over us.

I might think of something to submit later, but guys, do remember that whatever we pick, WILL be hard countered if possible. For example if we pick Sub DD Dragonite, Icicle Spear Mamoswine, Shed Shell Skarmory or Cloyster WILL get chosen to counter Dragonite. Personally, I would start off with something aggressive, that has few counters, forcing Team #2 into checking said sweeper, forcing them into a defensive role which is what we want. If Team #1 is aggressive enough in their teambuilding choices, then Team #2 could be forced to pick passively, which gives us the huge advantage for the last pick. Hence why I dislike a passive option.

Mix Hydreigon (not nommed but hard to switch into), Sub Terrakion (prefer Salac over Rock Gem tho), Agility Thundurus-T and Rp Landorus are some nominations that I feel are tricky to counter (Mamoswine fucks with a lot of them but cannot switch in) are perhapes the better choices out there. Will think on a possible submission.

[Arcticblast]

Scarf Garchomp isn't a great sweeper; the only reason I use it is that it OHKOs Volcarona while not being deadweight outside of Sand (looking at you Scarf Landorus). Sure it can clean up a weakened team, but that can be said about any sweeper - many of whom do it much better.

[The Great Mighty Doom]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Actually yes it is. The initial problem is that Team #2 simply picks Swift Swim Specs Kingdra, and then focus's on overloading whatever we attempt to use to counter said kingdra (Mag for Ferro, maybe Goth for Celebi etc etc). Part of the reasons Team #1 was successful last time, is that it was able to make use of rain, while still functioning outside of rain which made it difficult for Team #2. Did they risk selecting Kingdra even tho it would be a deadweight if we lacked rain etc etc. Its a thin line to walk, but Toxicroak really really needs rain to be effective, telegraphing our next choice, something Team #2 can easily counter (pick something that fucks with Toed + Croak then tack on Kingdra as your second choice and they now have momentum, dictating our team as well as a huge advantage over us.

I might think of something to submit later, but guys, do remember that whatever we pick, WILL be hard countered if possible. For example if we pick Sub DD Dragonite, Icicle Spear Mamoswine, Shed Shell Skarmory or Cloyster WILL get chosen to counter Dragonite. Personally, I would start off with something aggressive, that has few counters, forcing Team #2 into checking said sweeper, forcing them into a defensive role which is what we want. If Team #1 is aggressive enough in their teambuilding choices, then Team #2 could be forced to pick passively, which gives us the huge advantage for the last pick. Hence why I dislike a passive option.

Mix Hydreigon (not nommed but hard to switch into), Sub Terrakion (prefer Salac over Rock Gem tho), Agility Thundurus-T and Rp Landorus are some nominations that I feel are tricky to counter (Mamoswine fucks with a lot of them but cannot switch in) are perhapes the better choices out there. Will think on a possible submission.

Good points ginga, I still think Toxicroak could be added onto the team later, but I think you're correct about not starting off with it :)

[Pocket]

Originally Posted by Fat HackerKing

I like this set, but can you elaborate a bit more. Is this set's priority to accumulate as many boosts as possible as fast as possible, then proceed to spam Dragon Tail, or to use Dragon Tail often, boosting occasionally when possible?

I must say it's the latter - boost whenever possible and DTail out annoying mons. Hopefully what comes out would be something that Kyurem-B can set up on.

This set can sweep by itself, but it's also more of a supporter role, tanking powerful special hits for the team while not being set-up bait thanks to Dragon Tail.

[Cherub Agent]

I really like the look of that Cube set Pocket. I've tried literally every variant of directly offensive Cube and every single one has left me unimpressed, as it very very rarely was able to get more than one kill per match. The shuffler set looks incredibly vicious however and I'd really like to see a team built around it. I'll be voting for this ugly mofo for sure. Can you tell me what the EVs are for?

Pocket EDIT: Cherub Agent, I explained the EVs in its set entry :o Enough special bulk to tank Modest LO Focus Blast from Landorus-I and enough physical bulk to tank Specs Secret Sword from Keldeo!

[Remedy]

I think it's a little unfair to say that Breloom@Fight Gem is not a good idea because it is shown (what I agree with), but praise for instance LO Scizor for being able to set up on a bad switch predicting banded set... I don't really see the logic.

Whatever, if it's about chosing a fancy set, obviously Starmie won't win but well... I didn't know this was the subject. I'm not really familiar with the process of this subject though..

[RedRascal]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Mix Hydreigon (not nommed but hard to switch into), Sub Terrakion (prefer Salac over Rock Gem tho), Agility Thundurus-T and Rp Landorus are some nominations that I feel are tricky to counter (Mamoswine fucks with a lot of them but cannot switch in) are perhapes the better choices out there.

I agree with ginga completely. We really don't want to start with a wall/utiity poke because then team 2 can simply choose something that can smash it or take advantage of it. The only poke outside of the ones listed above that I would consider would be Kyurem-B but I don't think I'd want it for the primary spot. It's very good after hazards are set but a little bad luck with Dragon Tail will force it out and put us in a tight spot.

One other "good" choice is the Offensive SD Scizor set mentioned but this can be checked hard by any fire type faster than it (though this would then leave the opponents team more weak to SR).

In hindsight it wouldn't be a terrible idea to somewhat force the second team into using resists weak to rocks (like Scizor encourages Fire types and RP Landorus encourages Flying) because then we can add a shuffler like Kyurem-B to wreak havoc. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Fat Remedy

Many of these sets have a surprise factor.

Am I missing something ? Why start with specific, hard to pull off pokemons who lose a lot of their power once the moveset is revealed?

EDIT : A little ninja'd :>

I also agree with Remedy on this. Granted, I'm a little at fault as well with posting the RP Landorus set but that's the top set on Smogon so it's not like the other team wouldn't expect it anyway (unless you ran it in Sand or something). Beginning with a "surprise factor" set won't work with how this is set up. I'm not a fan of just giving cookie cutter sets but the reason those "main" sets are standard are because they work.

As a very quick thought on Starmie: I also find it weak when not in rain (and we don't want to force ourselves into that this early). It's a nice thought to have a spinner but we have no team yet to know if it's necessary and (while it would be idiotic for team 2 to not carry at least rocks) if team 2 doesn't even carry hazards then it's a wasted move slot. Starmie is another good poke but I'd call it utility and not good enough to be first pick.

[ginganinja]

I feel bad not making a submission sooooooo


-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Fire Blast
-Earthquake
ability: Moxie
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 92 Atk / 192 SpA / 224 Spe

O.k, this set should be pretty obvious to many of you, but its very, very destructive. Salamence is one of the faster Mixed wallbreakers out there, and argubly one of the most effective. It has its flaws, namely the vulnerability to priority, as well as being revenge killed without too much trouble, and also suffering from a SR weakness, however it offers us excellent wallbreaking potential, and it very easily puts the pressure on Team 2. For starters, not much can actually counter Salamence, which forces Team 2 into one of 2 routes. It can go fully defensive, which is fine by me, since passive choices allow us to counterteam and overwelm members of their team, or they can do hyper offensive, and run faster sweepers sitting around 100 base speed and highier, to lessen the impact of Salamence on their team, by having as many members as they can outspeed it to prevent it rampaging through their team. Either way, I think its not a terrible matchup no matter the path they take, and its not THAT hard to check Hyper Offence (imo) and so I nominate Salamence

[evillocke]

Hm, seems good. Salamence puts loads of pressure, as you said. Sure, they could run mamo, but mamo will not enjoy any of these moves. Chansey is scewed over by outrage, however, if mence takes something out, team 2 could use max speed garchomp to eat it alive with its own outrage. But even using garchomp is risky because of brelooms terrifiying mach punch.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 292-344 (81.56 - 96.08%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah. Sure, rough skin kicks in blah blah blah, but still.

As a result, I would like to second that mence.

[Electrolyte]

Glad to see that this is back. Boy, I don't know about you, but I certainly feel like a veteran

Here's an interesting guy that I've been playing with and would love to see how CCAT reacts with it in play:


Landorus-T @ Leftovers
Adamant nature
200 HP / 64 Atk / 244 Def
~Stealth Rock
~Earthquake
~Stone Edge
~U-Turn

I think it would be interesting to see how the 'forgotten therian' fares in this CCAT round. Despite being unpopular, Landorus-T is extremely useful, and it can fulfill a variety of useful roles it would be nice for team 1 to start off with. We get Rocks up right off the bat with this guy, which will open up more slots in the future for other moves/pokemon. We also get U-Turn, which is cool since it gives us the option of running Volt-Turn, a strategy I think we should explore more now that Genesect is gone. Lando is a nice tank too with that spread, giving it more initial bulk and power than Gliscor, perfect for a balanced team, which is what I think we should be aiming for here. Earthquake is a nice powerful STAB that decimates Sand teams, and Stone Edge is in general just a useful move to have- forming an EdgeQuake core as well as hitting some vital pokemon hard- Kyurem-B, Volcarona, Tornadus-T, etc.

[dragonuser]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Kyurem-B @ Leftovers
Trait: Terravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 136 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Hone Claws
- Dragon Tail
- Roost

Imagine SubRoost DDNite, but one that cannot be phazed out ;0 Meet SubRoost HC Kyu-B!

This set can carry teams. I have singlehandedly shuffle-swept a team (without hazards!) with this White Frost Dragon. It certainly pulls its weight, thanks to its immense bulk that allows it to survive Modest Landorus's Focus Blast and Specs Keldeo's Secret Sword! It's Substitute wont even break from Heatran's Lava Plume :D. There are simply way too many set-up opportunities for Kyurem-B - it will certainly pull some major feats in any game ;)

Just want to give this set some more support. It is truly a great set and is incredibly underrated. This set easily wins games, and it isn't always hazards dependent. Like Pocket said, this set is the "Sub DDnite" of BW2, and should really get more consideration. I know the first time I saw this I dismissed it as a gimmick, but after testing I really saw how great it was, so yea don't just pass over this set!

[Temp V1]

I am very, very happy to see this project back, a nice little welcome home present :)

Going from what I learned over the course of the last CTP project this first pick is going to be having a hard time by the end of the project, unless we do for for something that can always do its job, and well. This is the beginning of a long project, so we obviously don't want to start to limit anything straight away. I feel that picking something now that is either more defensively orientated or perhaps a decent offensive threat, rather than serious powerhouse, may sort of come back to bite the team in the ass in the latter stages of the project. As ganj4 mentioned in the OP the last pick for team 1, Deoxys, really did tilt the scales in favour of team 1. That said I think what would really be a good way to start off team 1 is a nice little offensive powerhouse that sets up, but does not require a set up to still do damage.

In my opinion the three optimum things for this would be SD TechniLoom, SubSalac Terrakion and SD Lucario. I'm glad to see that all 3 of these have already been nominated because I think they provide a great footing for the team. I may be slightly more inclined towards Breloom then Lucario, and Terrakion last because of the different levels of versatility, for instance Terrakion is an amazing user of a Scarf or Band as well, and if either was needed in a 5 or 6 slot and SubSalac was already selected then there may be issues. I personally believe SD TechniLoom is Breloom's best set in this current metagame because of how much it can threaten, and how quickly it can do it. On all my HO teams I have a Techniloom, and I will often switch to it after my lead. I tend to be able to knock out anywhere from 2-4 things with it alone, provided my opponent doesn't have a Xatu/Espeon waiting in the wings.

While there are a few things that can easily dismantle teams from the get-go, I believe TechniLoom also provides a great building block to start with. TechniLoom's counters are all known, and if you aren't packing at least a check to it, you will be saying goodbye to half your team. That means that from team member #1 we can already dictate a member or two of team two, even if its at the #6 slot. I won't make a nomination because TechniLoom as already been nominated, thats just my justification as to why I believe its the correct choice for the first member of team one, I would personally go with the Life Orb over Fight Gem, as it really facilitates Loom's early-mid-late game sweeps.

Credit to Gengarnemisis for the submission.

[White symphoni]

Originally Posted by Fat RedRascal

A fun set I've not used but heard good things about. The main thing stopping it is phazing and not allowing it to set up. Since this is designed as a "show all" and "counter that poke" kind of deal the surprise factor is ruined for this set though. I would wager that most people assume offensive/bulky DD or banded based on the team. This is one of the last sets I'd thing of if seeing it in a match (and hence part of why it works, the surprise). This is thrown out the window though in this scenario because all the other team has to do it not let it set up, phaze it out or even just run a bulky steel and out favorite dragon can't really do anything.

Not trying to shoot down diversity as I do like the set but there are a lot of things that stop this poke and they've got a whole team to work with still. That and the fact that Pocket's Kyurem-B set seems like a better choice as far as the "bulky set up dragon" position goes. I know from personal experience that it's a massive pain to get around...

You're right.But you're also wrong because this set is not based on surprise factor.The surprise factor just makes it better.The fact that this set needs some time to set up means that the opponent will have time to react when they realize it's not offensive.So surprise factor isn't the key to it's success.Every pokemon has a counter.Phazing is this mons.No matter what we choose,they will choose something that counters it.So I don't see listing it's counters to be a reason not to use it

About pocket's Kyurem-B,both the bulky dragons function's a little differently.I don't know which is better but just like Kyurem-B has the advantage of not being phased by stuff like skarm Dragonite has some advantages too.The biggest is it's speed boosting.Thanks to speed boosting Dragonite can pull of a sweep much better.While Kyurem-B is more vulnerble to revenge killing.It needs the the sub intact to escape revenge killing.Also keep in mind that team 2 can just put a faster phaser for kyurem-B,like a faster heatran.And I think anything faster with a phasing move will phaze out kyu-B before it uses Dragon Tail.So they can simply stick a roar on something like Garchomp too.heck even a kyu-b of their own with 4 extra EVs on speed.

I agree with the factor that SubRoost Kyu-B is very good and acts like SubDD Nite.I'm just pointing out crucial facts that people are missing when they say kyu-B is everyway better than SubDDNite.

Also,SubDDNite has no business until mid or late game,giving you plenty of chance to get rid of anything they throw at.Mamosine you say?beat it down with hazards+Spin Blocker.Bulky steel types you say?Well forretress and most ferro are actually set up bait.Skarm can be a problem but hey the rest of the team is there to counter whatever they might choose.

[Neliel]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

I feel bad not making a submission sooooooo


move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Earthquake
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 92 Atk / 192 SpA / 224 Spe

O.k, this set should be pretty obvious to many of you, but its very, very destructive. Salamence is one of the faster Mixed wallbreakers out there, and argubly one of the most effective. It has its flaws, namely the vulnerability to priority, as well as being revenge killed without too much trouble, and also suffering from a SR weakness, however it offers us excellent wallbreaking potential, and it very easily puts the pressure on Team 2. For starters, not much can actually counter Salamence, which forces Team 2 into one of 2 routes. It can go fully defensive, which is fine by me, since passive choices allow us to counterteam and overwelm members of their team, or they can do hyper offensive, and run faster sweepers sitting around 100 base speed and highier, to lessen the impact of Salamence on their team, by having as many members as they can outspeed it to prevent it rampaging through their team. Either way, I think its not a terrible matchup no matter the path they take, and its not THAT hard to check Hyper Offence (imo) and so I nominate Salamence

Can i ask which ability do you have on this set? i think that intimidate is better here, but moxie can be usefull to increase the attack which is not very high here.

ginganinja EDIT: added, its Moxie since its much better if Team #2 opts for a more balanced / defensive role. Intimdate I think is situational since I highly doubt Team #2 is going to be keen on giving Salamence free switches when it can nuke the hell out of it. Moxie is also nice for snowballing (and being able to follow up with Outraqe after killing something with DM) and its personal preference.

[ganj4lF]

Wow, we got enough good submission to start voting! Going to post the slate soon - I'd like to have those slases removed ASAP from sets by Melee Mewtwo / windwolf777.

[ganj4lF]

Okay, since both Melee Mewtwo and windwolf are offline now, and I don't have all the day to wait those slashes to be edited out, I'll post the slate anyway and hopefully they'll remove their slashes soon enough. If they don't do so, and they win the poll, I'll just give the win to the second most voted entry since their own submission is not compliant to the ruleset I posted in the OP.

This is a single bold voting; you can vote for only one entry, picked from the following list:

• Articblast's SD Lucario
• Melee Mewtwo's SubPetaya Empoleon
• DarkBlazeR's Tailwind Hydreigon
• Phazon00's Agility Thundurus-T
• windwolf777's Zoroark
• ClubbingSealCub's SubSD Terrakion
• gengarsnemisis's Fighting Gem Breloom
• Remedy's LO Starmie
• RedRascal's RP Landorus-I
• White symphoni's SubDD Dragonite
• Pocket's SubRoost Hone Claws Kyurem-B
• Neliel Tu Oderschvank's Jirachi
• NixHex's SD Scizor
• The Great Mighty Doom's Toxicroak
• ginganinja's MixMence
• Electrolyte's Landorus-T
• The Unlucky one's Gravity Landorus-I

When voting, you should post only the name of the user that proposed your favourite set, bolded (you can add whatever commentary you like, not bolded, under your vote). For example, if I'd like to vote for ginganinja's Salamence, my vote should look like this:

ginganinja

Any other commentary goes here, not bolded.

*NEW RULE* Just for this first vote, self voting is DISALLOWED. Since there's nothing to counter, and so there's not a "best pick" here, I'm afraid that almost everyone would vote for themselves, which is obviously bad. Self voting will be allowed from the second vote onward.

Voting will be opened for at least 24 hours. Go!

EDIT: I'll do an exception for this time since I ninjaed you by 18 seconds...added The Unlucky one's set.

[The Unlucky one]

Wait, I have a really good idea right now. Above post might mean this is too late but i have one more submission.

Landorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Sand Force
Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD)
252 Atk/ 4 Def/ 252 Spe
-Gravity
-Earthquake
-Hidden Power Ice
-U-Turn

This thing is an absolute beast. A lot of people will need to discuss when figuring out a pokemon to switch in to this massive truck as EQ still hurts regardless of sand. It's most common switches get nailed to the ground by Gravity. Gravity Landorus is an incredibly hard poke to counter and is the reason i think theorymoning on countering this poke would be interesting.

Oh Yeah, if this is too late; i vote for SubPetaya Empoleon.

[DarkBlazeR]

SubRoost Hone Claws Kyurem-B

[Temp V1]

Gengarnemisis' Fight Gem Breloom

Would prefer LO on that, but close enough :d