The Defense of the Titans Project - Mark II - Page 2

Melee Mewtwo · Dec 7th, 2012, 10:48:55 AM

Pokemon Showdown! Username: StallTwo
Hall of Fame Standing: N/A
Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: N/A

I'll start working on this once the next suspect test comes around.

Edit: Changed alt

YoYoNerd · Dec 8th, 2012, 2:04:11 PM

Pokemon Showdown! Username: YoYoNerdess
Hall of Fame Standing: N/A
Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: N/A

jaredz99 · Dec 8th, 2012, 4:38:36 PM

I'm still waiting for my team to get confirmed, but I'm 100% certain it is actually a stall team and am bored as hell because my finals are over, so this is going up. I've qualified with the #83 spot and a Glicko2 of 1965, but am working on improving that, and I'll update this post when I get higher.

Pokemon Showdown! Username: HailFighting
DT team (with complete sets):

...

Screenshot of Top 100 Ladder Ranking: http://i.imgur.com/iU4kk.png (Sorry about the low quality, but I think you can see it)

I used a hail stall team. My offensive pokemon was MixBelt Abomasnow. The primary goal of this team was to whittle down opposing pokemon with residual damage from hail and spreading toxic. The primary means of achieving this was with a Stallrein "sweep", although that was certainly not necessary.

- What are the roles of Pokemon that were essential to your stall team's success? Rapid Spinner, Physical Wall, Hazard Setter, etc.
Forretress was essential, primarily as a rapid spinner but also to set up hazards which took advantage of the fact that my team forces a lot of switches. In fact, I had many battles where probably over half of the turns involved switching or double switching. Abomasnow is obviously key to set up hail, and the set I was running is created to win the weather war, with Wood Hammer OHKOing most Politoed and TTar, and EQ whacking Ninetales on the switch. Blissey and Gliscor were critical as special and physical walls, respectively, and Blissey also served as a cleric. Latias patched up several weaknesses, most notably Venusaur and Keldeo, while also providing a decent win-condition scenario with Calm Mind.

- What was the most useful Pokemon in your team and why? You can also talk about defensive cores here.
While Forretress and Abomasnow were essential, the most useful pokemon was by far Stallrein. Walrein takes advantage of an incredibly offensive meta which provides him many opportunities to set up and "sweep".

- What were the biggest threats to your stall team, and how you dealt with them?
Actually, the largest threats to this team were other stall teams. Sand stall was slightly annoying but playable, the most difficult was rain stall. In particular, the core of Tentacruel/Ferrothorn/Jellicent made it difficult to set up or spin away hazards. Theoretically Abomasnow beats all three of these pokemon, as well as the implied Politoed, but the other two pokemon on the team are always Tornadus-T and Jirachi which force Abomasnow out if they can get in cleanly. Since Abomasnow can't heal he gets worn down by entry hazard damage, and Forretress has a tough time spinning with Jellicent always lurking around. While rain stall was certainly not unbeatable, it was much more unforgiving and required outstanding prediction to play around. I'd say that against good players my record against rain stall was probably between 35-65 or 40-60, so that's clearly the biggest weakness.

- Did you find it easy or difficult to build a successful stall team? Explain why.
I didn't find it too difficult, but that's mostly because I have a lot of experience with hail stall. I actually think that people play up the offensive nature of the metagame way too much. I mean, my 4th gen hail stall team was SubSeed Abomasnow/Blissey/Stallrein/Gliscor/Tentacruel/Heatran, so it's not like massive changes had to be made to deal with new threats.

- How did you reach the Hall of Fame? Was it easy or difficult? Did having a stall team benefit you? What advice would you give to those laddering with stall teams?
I reached the HoF by laddering :\ It wasn't that bad. The first 15-20 battles were particularly easy, noobs don't really know how to handle stall, so that got me up to like 1770-1800. Once I started hitting better players I obviously slowed down and had a couple of losing streaks. The most difficult hump to get over was around the 1840 mark, right under the top 100, but eventually I handled it. I think having a stall team does benefit simply because they are more rare and opposing battlers don't have as good of a feel for how to play against them. My advice for those laddering with stall would be to know your team inside and out and BE PATIENT...impatience kills with a stall team, one or two battles I lost simply because I wasn't willing to PP stall/continue my Sub-Protect cycle. It is a bit annoying that I can't queue up a battle if I have anything to do in the next 25 minutes, but there you go :)

At some point I will make a full-fledged RMT with expanded descriptions, when I do that I'll link to it here.

The Unlucky one · Dec 8th, 2012, 8:26:09 PM

hey guys, we wanna bring up discussion for Stall as well arent we? What do you think about Healing Wish for stall teams. Im just wondering.

Melee Mewtwo · Dec 9th, 2012, 5:31:34 AM

Rarely useful, stall doesn't like having to lose a Pokemon. You are better off with either wish or aromatherapy/Heal bell or both if you can fit it.

alexwolf · Dec 9th, 2012, 8:15:47 AM

DarkBlazeR congrats for being the first to make it to the HoF this month! You have a very solid rain stall team, however there are a few changes you could make to improve it... I definitely agree with Pocket that you should remove Leech Seed on Celebi anb give it SR, freeing up a moveslot on Jirachi to use U-turn and escape from Magnezone. I also think you should remove HP Ice on Zapdos and give it Roar instead, as you lack any special wall with phaze moves so threats such as SubCM Jirachi can be very problematic for your team. Finally, change Jirachi to a physically defensive variant to better handle Terrakion and Kyurem-B, two threats that Skarmory fails to cover, as i can't find any threat that you miss on covering without SpD Jirachi.

jaredz every time i see someone make it to HoF with a hail stall team i gotta give some real props, so good job! Stallrein seems very fun to play with, and i am happy to see that you made it work. Hazard stacking teams with a spinblocker seem like a huge problem though, as Forretress is a miserable spinner, and you don't have any trapper to deal with the Ghosts. How do you play around such teams?

jaredz99 · Dec 9th, 2012, 9:46:41 AM

DeoGar teams are usually incredibly easy, except the one time I saw somebody with HP Fire on their Deoxys (that went downhill quickly), because Walrein absolutely loves HO teams which provide massive opportunities to set up. Usually I send out Forry first and just spin/Gyro Ball until they get bored and switch, and then play it from there.
Like I said in the post, the tough one is Jellicent/Ferro/Tentacruel on rain stall. Abomasnow beats all of them but can't switch in to hazards :P Usually I try to toxic jellicent and switch around between Blissey/Latias/Gliscor, none of whom mind hazards too much, although it is annoying. I do need a way to beat those teams. I think the quickest fix is Substitute>Psyshock on Latias because most of those teams can't stop +6 CM outside of Leech Seed/Toxic, but then I lose the only thing stopping CM Keldeo from destroying my team...so if anybody has any ideas, please let me know.

Brave Bird spam · Dec 9th, 2012, 9:28:44 PM

I have a question-- what do you think of Salamence on stall teams? Dragonite seems better at first because of multiscale and twavebut mence has niches in intimidate and wish. Personally, I think gyarados and landorus-t would work well in tandem with salamence because, despite sharing little type synergy, both can take advantage of wish and having two intimidators is great(in fact I use landorus-t over gliscor on my DT team for the specific reason that it gives me a second intimidator, the other being gyarados). However, mence isn't that bulky at the end of the day, and an SR weakness is painful too. How viable do you think salamence is on stall teams?

Also, @ The unlucky one, healing wish isn't the best idea... it's hard enough covering all relevant threats with six teamslots without sacrificing a poke to heal a teammate, especially when alot of walls have reliable recovery anyway. In addition, latias, celebi, jirachi and the blobs, the most viable healing wishers in OU already need extra moveslots and all of them have Wish/heal bell/ both anyway. Just use Wish or heal bell because if you lose a poke it will most likely open up a huge weakness to something else on your opponent's team that your healing wish passer was meant to counter. In my humble opinion, healing wish is only useful on HO teams for getting a sweeper in safely with screens/ trick room up, and doesn't work well on stall teams.

czechm8 · Dec 10th, 2012, 9:38:39 AM

Username: ChipAway
HoF Standing: N/A
Ladder Standing: N/A

Remedy · Dec 10th, 2012, 9:59:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat jaredz99

DeoGar teams are usually incredibly easy, except the one time I saw somebody with HP Fire on their Deoxys (that went downhill quickly), because Walrein absolutely loves HO teams which provide massive opportunities to set up. Usually I send out Forry first and just spin/Gyro Ball until they get bored and switch, and then play it from there.
Like I said in the post, the tough one is Jellicent/Ferro/Tentacruel on rain stall. Abomasnow beats all of them but can't switch in to hazards :P Usually I try to toxic jellicent and switch around between Blissey/Latias/Gliscor, none of whom mind hazards too much, although it is annoying. I do need a way to beat those teams. I think the quickest fix is Substitute>Psyshock on Latias because most of those teams can't stop +6 CM outside of Leech Seed/Toxic, but then I lose the only thing stopping CM Keldeo from destroying my team...so if anybody has any ideas, please let me know.

I remember seeing this team twice, hmm I recall you saying something like "Abomasnow is a boss" thinking that you had the win, and I killed your whole team with Tornadus-T Hurricane after I kill the Blissey. I think that's the weak point of your team, maybe change Bilssey for a Wish Jirachi ?
Or changing your Forretres for a SpD Tentacruel ?
( I just checked, Latias takes a god damn ton from Specs Hurricane, and Superpower LO versions totally crush Blissey, ~60%, after SR it's 72 :\).

Bedlington · Dec 10th, 2012, 11:02:46 AM

Pokemon Showdown! Username:
Hall of Fame Standing: none
Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: non yet

jaredz99 · Dec 10th, 2012, 11:44:43 AM

That's an interesting idea Remedy...I've been trying out this set

...

Only thing I'm worried about is that it makes me a lot weaker to special fire types like Ninetales and Heatran...but I have Latias for that and it certainly helps against rain teams.

czechm8 · Dec 10th, 2012, 6:31:54 PM

So I've made a rain stall team, and It's been fairly effective so far. I'm sure can be improved though. Any suggestions? If this is the wrong place for this I apologize.
Politoed @ Lefties
Bold 252HP 252Def 2Spe
Perish Song
Protect
Toxic
Scald
Pretty straight forward defensive toed. I use Perish Song over IBeam to stop baton pass.

Skarmory@Lefties
Impish 252HP 232Def 24 Spe
Roost
Spikes
Whirlwind
Taunt
Considering dropping taunt for Brave Bird so I won't be taunt bait myself. This team has alot of trouble with Taunt Jellicent.

Blissey@Lefties
Calm 4HP 252Def 252SpDef
Wish
Protect
Toxic
Seismic Toss
Wish Passing Blissey stops most special attackers. She also helps keep my team healthy and supports my core of SkarmBliss+Tenta with her massive wishes.

Tentacruel@Black Sludge Rain Dish
Bold 252HP 236Def 20Spe
Toxic Spikes
Scald
Protect
Rapid Spin
Strong Fighting moves are a danger to SkarmBliss, Tenta shuts down most fighters, and absorbs TSpikes that are a huge danger to blissey.

Celebi@Lefties
Calm 252HP 232SpDef 24Spe
Giga Drain
Stealth Rock
Recover
Psychic
Specially Defensive Celebi is a useful swichin to many threats, and is a secondary fighter counter. I dropped U-Turn for psychic because this team has some trouble with toxicroak.

Keldo @ Choice Scarf
Timid 4 HP 252 SpAtk 252 Spe
Hydro Pump
Surf
Hidden Power Ice
Secret Sword

My one offensive Poke. He serves as a revenge killer and late game cleaner. If I lose rain for some reason he is my only real check to mixmence. (In rain Skarm takes about 45%)

tw1g007 · Dec 10th, 2012, 6:50:17 PM

Rotom-W + TTar/Scizor pairing will run circles round this team. If TTar/Scizor has Pursuit then Celebi will die for free if Celebi checks Rotom-W's Volt attack. Now if Blissey checks the Volt attack and the opponent has SD Lucario, it will setup on your Blissey and sweep your entire team for free if Keldeo is dead.

I have played with many variations of your team and I can confidently say that these are major issues you will run into.

czechm8 · Dec 10th, 2012, 7:16:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat tw1g007

Rotom-W + TTar/Scizor pairing will run circles round this team. If TTar/Scizor has Pursuit then Celebi will die for free if Celebi checks Rotom-W's Volt attack. Now if Blissey checks the Volt attack and the opponent has SD Lucario, it will setup on your Blissey and sweep your entire team for free if Keldeo is dead.

I have played with many variations of your team and I can confidently say that these are major issues you will run into.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll make some changes.

DrunkDemon · Dec 10th, 2012, 7:29:18 PM

Yeah, a Pursuit user along with something such as Keldeo is a major headache for defensive teams like this one. You should try to fit Baton Pass on Celebi so it isn't trapped, preferably over Stealth Rock. To get SR back on the team, you could change Blissey to a set of SR / Softboiled / Toxic / Seismic Toss. Losing wish support for Politoed is unfortunate, but with the prevalence of rain over other weathers in this metagame, it isn't that big of a deal.

tw1g007 · Dec 10th, 2012, 8:03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat czechm8

Thanks for the feedback, I'll make some changes.

Yea previous poster said something about SR on Blissey which I would prefer you'd do even without the problem I spoke of anyway. SR on Blissey beats many spinners like Tentacruel and Starmie who will struggle to spin the SR as you put it in continuously. If they choose to status you with Toxic then simply switch to Celebi and threaten to OHKO/2HKO with Giga Drain/Psychic. To avoid being complete setup bait I would also recommend you T-wave over Toxic for Blissey. Poison is already handled by Tentacruel anyway and for pokemon not affected by toxic spikes will be t-waved. This way if Rotom-W chooses to volt-switch to Lucario/Scizor, you can t-wave as they comes in and make the switch to Tentacruel/Skarm.

While BP isn't a bad idea for Celebi, it might not be fully necessary since you have Blissey (Celebi suffers from 4MSS). I'd recommend that if you see a Rotom-W + TTar/Scizor pairing, just check Rotom-W with Blissey consistently until you feel really low on health. The thing is with early SR placement, the Rotom-W switches will slowly kill themselves if they don't break off the momentum to either remove the SR or resort to more extreme measures of trying to kill your Blissey (which involves Rotom-W Hydro Pumps etc). When you have scouted TTars/Scizor's moves and you find they don't have pursuit (some don't which is dumb), then feel free to check with Celebi if you choose to.

edit:

I also forgot to mention that you are slightly Breloom weak since you opted not to use Brave Bird for Skarmory. If you spore sack a Pokemon like Politoed, Breloom will hit almost your entire team (besides Skarm) pretty hard with Bullet Seed/Focus Punch/Bullet Punch. The thing is one of your pokemon might definitely die on the switch before you revenge with Keldeo. Very good Brelooms play lots of mind games to (good Brelooms might predict the Politoed switch or simply Low Sweep and be in a win/win situation). The sub-versions will be very difficult to stop with your current setup most especially. All of this can be prevented provided Skarmory gets Brave Bird.

Terrakion might also be a problem with Rotom-W/Scizor pairing exposing both your Blissey/Celebi as potential setup baits. It hits every one of your team very hard with Stone Edge. The thing is with T-Wave on Blissey like I recommended, that might not really be a problem as Keldeo comes in to wreck havoc or force a switch.

S0L1D G0LD · Dec 11th, 2012, 5:27:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat jaredz99

I'm still waiting for my team to get confirmed, but I'm 100% certain it is actually a stall team and am bored as hell because my finals are over, so this is going up. I've qualified with the #83 spot and a Glicko2 of 1965, but am working on improving that, and I'll update this post when I get higher.

Pokemon Showdown! Username: HailFighting
DT team (with complete sets):

...

Screenshot of Top 100 Ladder Ranking: http://i.imgur.com/iU4kk.png (Sorry about the low quality, but I think you can see it)

I used a hail stall team. My offensive pokemon was MixBelt Abomasnow. The primary goal of this team was to whittle down opposing pokemon with residual damage from hail and spreading toxic. The primary means of achieving this was with a Stallrein "sweep", although that was certainly not necessary.

- What are the roles of Pokemon that were essential to your stall team's success? Rapid Spinner, Physical Wall, Hazard Setter, etc.
Forretress was essential, primarily as a rapid spinner but also to set up hazards which took advantage of the fact that my team forces a lot of switches. In fact, I had many battles where probably over half of the turns involved switching or double switching. Abomasnow is obviously key to set up hail, and the set I was running is created to win the weather war, with Wood Hammer OHKOing most Politoed and TTar, and EQ whacking Ninetales on the switch. Blissey and Gliscor were critical as special and physical walls, respectively, and Blissey also served as a cleric. Latias patched up several weaknesses, most notably Venusaur and Keldeo, while also providing a decent win-condition scenario with Calm Mind.

- What was the most useful Pokemon in your team and why? You can also talk about defensive cores here.
While Forretress and Abomasnow were essential, the most useful pokemon was by far Stallrein. Walrein takes advantage of an incredibly offensive meta which provides him many opportunities to set up and "sweep".

- What were the biggest threats to your stall team, and how you dealt with them?
Actually, the largest threats to this team were other stall teams. Sand stall was slightly annoying but playable, the most difficult was rain stall. In particular, the core of Tentacruel/Ferrothorn/Jellicent made it difficult to set up or spin away hazards. Theoretically Abomasnow beats all three of these pokemon, as well as the implied Politoed, but the other two pokemon on the team are always Tornadus-T and Jirachi which force Abomasnow out if they can get in cleanly. Since Abomasnow can't heal he gets worn down by entry hazard damage, and Forretress has a tough time spinning with Jellicent always lurking around. While rain stall was certainly not unbeatable, it was much more unforgiving and required outstanding prediction to play around. I'd say that against good players my record against rain stall was probably between 35-65 or 40-60, so that's clearly the biggest weakness.

- Did you find it easy or difficult to build a successful stall team? Explain why.
I didn't find it too difficult, but that's mostly because I have a lot of experience with hail stall. I actually think that people play up the offensive nature of the metagame way too much. I mean, my 4th gen hail stall team was SubSeed Abomasnow/Blissey/Stallrein/Gliscor/Tentacruel/Heatran, so it's not like massive changes had to be made to deal with new threats.

- How did you reach the Hall of Fame? Was it easy or difficult? Did having a stall team benefit you? What advice would you give to those laddering with stall teams?
I reached the HoF by laddering :\ It wasn't that bad. The first 15-20 battles were particularly easy, noobs don't really know how to handle stall, so that got me up to like 1770-1800. Once I started hitting better players I obviously slowed down and had a couple of losing streaks. The most difficult hump to get over was around the 1840 mark, right under the top 100, but eventually I handled it. I think having a stall team does benefit simply because they are more rare and opposing battlers don't have as good of a feel for how to play against them. My advice for those laddering with stall would be to know your team inside and out and BE PATIENT...impatience kills with a stall team, one or two battles I lost simply because I wasn't willing to PP stall/continue my Sub-Protect cycle. It is a bit annoying that I can't queue up a battle if I have anything to do in the next 25 minutes, but there you go :)

At some point I will make a full-fledged RMT with expanded descriptions, when I do that I'll link to it here.

calm mind i thought makes lati count as offensive.

Bedlington · Dec 15th, 2012, 9:38:01 AM

Ok, so I have an interesting thought.

As anybody who has ever attempted to use a stall team knows, calm mind reuniclus is a huge threat, so I had a thought about a possible solution. Although gimicky and very circumstantial, what if one of your team members ran skill swap (such as Mew or Blissey). Not only would this deal with reuniclus but it would also counter poison heal gliscor. My main issue with it is that you need to sacrifice a valuable move slot for it. In the current metagame, your opponent can't really abuse skill swap much and it has other benefits such as against Conkeldunker (sorry for spelling) and trappers.

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions - this was just theory moning of course.

Ryuuki · Dec 15th, 2012, 1:49:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Bedlington

Ok, so I have an interesting thought.

As anybody who has ever attempted to use a stall team knows, calm mind reuniclus is a huge threat, so I had a thought about a possible solution. Although gimicky and very circumstantial, what if one of your team members ran skill swap (such as Mew or Blissey). Not only would this deal with reuniclus but it would also counter poison heal gliscor. My main issue with it is that you need to sacrifice a valuable move slot for it. In the current metagame, your opponent can't really abuse skill swap much and it has other benefits such as against Conkeldunker (sorry for spelling) and trappers.

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions - this was just theory moning of course.

I havn't faced Reuniclus so I don't know if he's a problem, but I have one good skill swap abuser and that is my version of Princess Bri's Deoxys-D.

Deoxys-D
timid, leftovers, EVs: 252 hp / 252 Spd / 4 def
Skill swap
Recover
Seismic Toss
Taunt

I have used this set with great succes on my stall team. steeling poison heal from breloom and see when it lost 91% of its hp from toxic was hillarius. =D

Any pokemon with a better ability then pressure or any pokemon that relay on there ability will have probem with this set. It can realy mess up with most of the metagame but faster things that can just hit hard have no problem with this set.
It´s easy to use. Taunt on the switch, use skill swap and then have fun with taunt, S-toss and recover.
Give it a try and a lot of pokemons will hide in fear from this set once they relise what will happen when they switch in.

Scarfwynaut · Dec 15th, 2012, 1:50:14 PM

Getting back in the grind, :).

Pokemon Showdown! Username: Soviet Bubblegum
Hall of Fame Standing: --
Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: 1800

my current team: http://pastebin.com/PtM5sLzm

I am actually wondering if there are any good options over Blissey, whatever it would be it would have to cover Heatran, Volc, and Venusaur, the only other pokemon I think can do that is spd Dragonite, which I may play with later.

Also, if my team no stally enough? I have SC garchomp and several pokemon speed creeping.

Brave Bird spam · Dec 16th, 2012, 11:57:10 AM

scarfwynaut, you have 3 fire weaknesses and only one defensive poke that resists it(garchomp is bulky but not that bulky), and since slowbro is your only resist, Nasty Plot infernape is troublesome in addition to the pokes you mentioned as nothing on your team can wall it. That said, Tentacruel could replace blissey because it is an exellent mixed sponge and walls nearly all infernape variants and volcarona(but use toxic so volc doesnt set up on tentacruel). Since tentacruel can spin, you could then replace forretress with ferrothorn because ferrothorn has better resistances. A simple way to fix your venusaur problem would be twave over body slam on jirachi. Jirachi can live an EQ or hp fire and paralyze it, and then your other pokes could kill it easily. Also, if you end up replacing forretress with ferrothorn, you should probably use a more physically defensive set with gyro ball to handle Kyurem-b. Also, why hp fire on forretress?

Edit: I just realized that a lati twin could check venusaur, infernape, and heatran(if you use surf), though I don't know what you could replace. Scarf latios over garchomp seem like a bad idea because garchomp has a rock resist.

Another idea is heal bell over SR on celebi, and SR on forretress (or ferrothorn if you decide to replace it) over hp fire or pain split because jirachi hates being burned by random scalds. Just a random idea I had, throwing them out there to see if they're any good.

On a different note, I think my last post might have been swept away by all the discussion about teams and Skill swap, but I'm still curios about salamence. Is it absolute garbage and a waste of a teamslot or is it worth using?

Princess Bri · Dec 16th, 2012, 12:12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Ryuuki

I havn't faced Reuniclus so I don't know if he's a problem, but I have one good skill swap abuser and that is my version of Princess Bri's Deoxys-D.

Deoxys-D
timid, leftovers, EVs: 252 hp / 252 Spd / 4 def
Skill swap
Recover
Seismic Toss
Taunt

I have used this set with great succes on my stall team. steeling poison heal from breloom and see when it lost 91% of its hp from toxic was hillarius. =D

Any pokemon with a better ability then pressure or any pokemon that relay on there ability will have probem with this set. It can realy mess up with most of the metagame but faster things that can just hit hard have no problem with this set.
It´s easy to use. Taunt on the switch, use skill swap and then have fun with taunt, S-toss and recover.
Give it a try and a lot of pokemons will hide in fear from this set once they relise what will happen when they switch in.

You're definitely going to want entry hazards on this set to abuse the power of Skill Swap. Try out Spikes instead of Seismic Toss!

Ryuuki · Dec 16th, 2012, 12:56:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Princess Bri

You're definitely going to want entry hazards on this set to abuse the power of Skill Swap. Try out Spikes instead of Seismic Toss!

Well I already have 2 other pokemons with spikes on my team so I start with setting up hazards and then switches in.
Seismic toss makes me able to hit back on things that don't mind staying in after skill swap and it also helps me to slowly wear down other tanks.

Then I must say thanks for an awesome set, it's realy fun to play with =D

Scarfwynaut · Dec 16th, 2012, 5:22:47 PM

If anyone was wondering, the reason I had HP fire on Forretress was Scizor. It was not the best fix though because Forretress often gets taken out and if there is only a bit or rain or magnzone support, it fails to stop scizor and I get swept. Scizor is far to common to make risks like that.

I replaced HP fire for gyro-ball to hit Kyurem-Black and other dragons (and changed its evs accordingly). I also switched from Garchomp to Gliscor with the following moveset to counter Scizor. (full team here http://pastebin.com/9XnTn9Pe)

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 76 Spd / 180 Def / 252 HP
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Roost

So far its working quite nicely, although losing my check will be sorely missed, but I needed a decicated Scizor counter. I may try Jellicent later as it performs a similar role, but you know, it blocks spins.

I actually keep on losing to god dam CM-jirachi, I really want to run perish song on Celebi, but I can't seem to get another pokemon to run rocks. Jirachi needs its full moveset to work, Forretress and Gliscor are a terrible rock setters, and Blissey needs flamethrower for Venusaur. Any ideas?

Make not though for any suggestions, I am trying to make a stall team based around Slowbro and Jirachi, so please don't suggest pokemon over them :).

Dec 7th, 2012, 10:48:55 AM	#26
Melee Mewtwo Dat Lugiass Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 672 France	Pokemon Showdown! Username: StallTwo Hall of Fame Standing: N/A Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: N/A I'll start working on this once the next suspect test comes around. Edit: Changed alt Last edited by Melee Mewtwo; Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:26:14 AM.

Dec 8th, 2012, 4:38:36 PM	#28
jaredz99 Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 59	I'm still waiting for my team to get confirmed, but I'm 100% certain it is actually a stall team and am bored as hell because my finals are over, so this is going up. I've qualified with the #83 spot and a Glicko2 of 1965, but am working on improving that, and I'll update this post when I get higher. Pokemon Showdown! Username: HailFighting DT team (with complete sets): ... Abomasnow (M) @ Expert Belt Trait: Snow Warning Shiny: Yes EVs: 252 Atk / 112 SAtk / 144 Spd Lonely Nature - Wood Hammer - Hidden Power [Fire] - Ice Shard - Earthquake Forretress @ Leftovers Trait: Overcoat EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk Relaxed Nature IVs: 0 Spd - Rapid Spin - Stealth Rock - Toxic Spikes - Gyro Ball Blissey (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Natural Cure EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef Bold Nature - Aromatherapy - Softboiled - Seismic Toss - Toxic Walrein (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Ice Body EVs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SDef Bold Nature - Substitute - Protect - Blizzard - Toxic Latias (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature IVs: 0 Spd - Calm Mind - Dragon Pulse - Roost - Psyshock Gliscor @ Toxic Orb Trait: Poison Heal EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd Impish Nature IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd - Earthquake - Toxic - Roost - Taunt Screenshot of Top 100 Ladder Ranking: http://i.imgur.com/iU4kk.png (Sorry about the low quality, but I think you can see it) I used a hail stall team. My offensive pokemon was MixBelt Abomasnow. The primary goal of this team was to whittle down opposing pokemon with residual damage from hail and spreading toxic. The primary means of achieving this was with a Stallrein "sweep", although that was certainly not necessary. - What are the roles of Pokemon that were essential to your stall team's success? Rapid Spinner, Physical Wall, Hazard Setter, etc. Forretress was essential, primarily as a rapid spinner but also to set up hazards which took advantage of the fact that my team forces a lot of switches. In fact, I had many battles where probably over half of the turns involved switching or double switching. Abomasnow is obviously key to set up hail, and the set I was running is created to win the weather war, with Wood Hammer OHKOing most Politoed and TTar, and EQ whacking Ninetales on the switch. Blissey and Gliscor were critical as special and physical walls, respectively, and Blissey also served as a cleric. Latias patched up several weaknesses, most notably Venusaur and Keldeo, while also providing a decent win-condition scenario with Calm Mind. - What was the most useful Pokemon in your team and why? You can also talk about defensive cores here. While Forretress and Abomasnow were essential, the most useful pokemon was by far Stallrein. Walrein takes advantage of an incredibly offensive meta which provides him many opportunities to set up and "sweep". - What were the biggest threats to your stall team, and how you dealt with them? Actually, the largest threats to this team were other stall teams. Sand stall was slightly annoying but playable, the most difficult was rain stall. In particular, the core of Tentacruel/Ferrothorn/Jellicent made it difficult to set up or spin away hazards. Theoretically Abomasnow beats all three of these pokemon, as well as the implied Politoed, but the other two pokemon on the team are always Tornadus-T and Jirachi which force Abomasnow out if they can get in cleanly. Since Abomasnow can't heal he gets worn down by entry hazard damage, and Forretress has a tough time spinning with Jellicent always lurking around. While rain stall was certainly not unbeatable, it was much more unforgiving and required outstanding prediction to play around. I'd say that against good players my record against rain stall was probably between 35-65 or 40-60, so that's clearly the biggest weakness. - Did you find it easy or difficult to build a successful stall team? Explain why. I didn't find it too difficult, but that's mostly because I have a lot of experience with hail stall. I actually think that people play up the offensive nature of the metagame way too much. I mean, my 4th gen hail stall team was SubSeed Abomasnow/Blissey/Stallrein/Gliscor/Tentacruel/Heatran, so it's not like massive changes had to be made to deal with new threats. - How did you reach the Hall of Fame? Was it easy or difficult? Did having a stall team benefit you? What advice would you give to those laddering with stall teams? I reached the HoF by laddering :\ It wasn't that bad. The first 15-20 battles were particularly easy, noobs don't really know how to handle stall, so that got me up to like 1770-1800. Once I started hitting better players I obviously slowed down and had a couple of losing streaks. The most difficult hump to get over was around the 1840 mark, right under the top 100, but eventually I handled it. I think having a stall team does benefit simply because they are more rare and opposing battlers don't have as good of a feel for how to play against them. My advice for those laddering with stall would be to know your team inside and out and BE PATIENT...impatience kills with a stall team, one or two battles I lost simply because I wasn't willing to PP stall/continue my Sub-Protect cycle. It is a bit annoying that I can't queue up a battle if I have anything to do in the next 25 minutes, but there you go :) At some point I will make a full-fledged RMT with expanded descriptions, when I do that I'll link to it here. Last edited by jaredz99; Dec 8th, 2012 at 5:40:48 PM.

Dec 8th, 2012, 8:26:09 PM	#29
The Unlucky one Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 512 Philippines	hey guys, we wanna bring up discussion for Stall as well arent we? What do you think about Healing Wish for stall teams. Im just wondering. __________________ 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magikarp Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh in rain: 228-270 (54.93 - 65.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock you may know me as "superwii64cube" too

Dec 9th, 2012, 8:15:47 AM	#31
alexwolf King of Conquerors Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,632 Greece	DarkBlazeR congrats for being the first to make it to the HoF this month! You have a very solid rain stall team, however there are a few changes you could make to improve it... I definitely agree with Pocket that you should remove Leech Seed on Celebi anb give it SR, freeing up a moveslot on Jirachi to use U-turn and escape from Magnezone. I also think you should remove HP Ice on Zapdos and give it Roar instead, as you lack any special wall with phaze moves so threats such as SubCM Jirachi can be very problematic for your team. Finally, change Jirachi to a physically defensive variant to better handle Terrakion and Kyurem-B, two threats that Skarmory fails to cover, as i can't find any threat that you miss on covering without SpD Jirachi. jaredz every time i see someone make it to HoF with a hail stall team i gotta give some real props, so good job! Stallrein seems very fun to play with, and i am happy to see that you made it work. Hazard stacking teams with a spinblocker seem like a huge problem though, as Forretress is a miserable spinner, and you don't have any trapper to deal with the Ghosts. How do you play around such teams? __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check! Last edited by alexwolf; Dec 9th, 2012 at 8:29:23 AM.

Dec 9th, 2012, 9:28:44 PM	#33
Brave Bird spam Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 48	I have a question-- what do you think of Salamence on stall teams? Dragonite seems better at first because of multiscale and twavebut mence has niches in intimidate and wish. Personally, I think gyarados and landorus-t would work well in tandem with salamence because, despite sharing little type synergy, both can take advantage of wish and having two intimidators is great(in fact I use landorus-t over gliscor on my DT team for the specific reason that it gives me a second intimidator, the other being gyarados). However, mence isn't that bulky at the end of the day, and an SR weakness is painful too. How viable do you think salamence is on stall teams? Also, @ The unlucky one, healing wish isn't the best idea... it's hard enough covering all relevant threats with six teamslots without sacrificing a poke to heal a teammate, especially when alot of walls have reliable recovery anyway. In addition, latias, celebi, jirachi and the blobs, the most viable healing wishers in OU already need extra moveslots and all of them have Wish/heal bell/ both anyway. Just use Wish or heal bell because if you lose a poke it will most likely open up a huge weakness to something else on your opponent's team that your healing wish passer was meant to counter. In my humble opinion, healing wish is only useful on HO teams for getting a sweeper in safely with screens/ trick room up, and doesn't work well on stall teams. Last edited by Brave Bird spam; Dec 9th, 2012 at 9:42:24 PM.

Dec 8th, 2012, 2:04:11 PM	#27
YoYoNerd Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 5	Pokemon Showdown! Username: YoYoNerdess Hall of Fame Standing: N/A Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: N/A

Dec 9th, 2012, 5:31:34 AM	#30
Melee Mewtwo Dat Lugiass Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 672 France	Rarely useful, stall doesn't like having to lose a Pokemon. You are better off with either wish or aromatherapy/Heal bell or both if you can fit it.

Dec 9th, 2012, 9:46:41 AM	#32
jaredz99 Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 59	DeoGar teams are usually incredibly easy, except the one time I saw somebody with HP Fire on their Deoxys (that went downhill quickly), because Walrein absolutely loves HO teams which provide massive opportunities to set up. Usually I send out Forry first and just spin/Gyro Ball until they get bored and switch, and then play it from there. Like I said in the post, the tough one is Jellicent/Ferro/Tentacruel on rain stall. Abomasnow beats all of them but can't switch in to hazards :P Usually I try to toxic jellicent and switch around between Blissey/Latias/Gliscor, none of whom mind hazards too much, although it is annoying. I do need a way to beat those teams. I think the quickest fix is Substitute>Psyshock on Latias because most of those teams can't stop +6 CM outside of Leech Seed/Toxic, but then I lose the only thing stopping CM Keldeo from destroying my team...so if anybody has any ideas, please let me know.

Dec 10th, 2012, 9:38:39 AM	#34
czechm8 Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 237 United States	Username: ChipAway HoF Standing: N/A Ladder Standing: N/A __________________ SS FC: 3439 0156 2549 White FC:1549 5311 6603

Dec 10th, 2012, 11:02:46 AM	#36
Bedlington Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 49	Pokemon Showdown! Username: Hall of Fame Standing: none Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: non yet

Dec 10th, 2012, 11:44:43 AM	#37
jaredz99 Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 59	That's an interesting idea Remedy...I've been trying out this set ... Jirachi @ Leftovers Trait: Serene Grace EVs: 224 SDef / 252 HP / 32 Spd Careful Nature - Wish - Iron Head - Body Slam - Protect Only thing I'm worried about is that it makes me a lot weaker to special fire types like Ninetales and Heatran...but I have Latias for that and it certainly helps against rain teams.

Dec 10th, 2012, 6:31:54 PM	#38
czechm8 Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 237 United States	So I've made a rain stall team, and It's been fairly effective so far. I'm sure can be improved though. Any suggestions? If this is the wrong place for this I apologize. Politoed @ Lefties Bold 252HP 252Def 2Spe Perish Song Protect Toxic Scald Pretty straight forward defensive toed. I use Perish Song over IBeam to stop baton pass. Skarmory@Lefties Impish 252HP 232Def 24 Spe Roost Spikes Whirlwind Taunt Considering dropping taunt for Brave Bird so I won't be taunt bait myself. This team has alot of trouble with Taunt Jellicent. Blissey@Lefties Calm 4HP 252Def 252SpDef Wish Protect Toxic Seismic Toss Wish Passing Blissey stops most special attackers. She also helps keep my team healthy and supports my core of SkarmBliss+Tenta with her massive wishes. Tentacruel@Black Sludge Rain Dish Bold 252HP 236Def 20Spe Toxic Spikes Scald Protect Rapid Spin Strong Fighting moves are a danger to SkarmBliss, Tenta shuts down most fighters, and absorbs TSpikes that are a huge danger to blissey. Celebi@Lefties Calm 252HP 232SpDef 24Spe Giga Drain Stealth Rock Recover Psychic Specially Defensive Celebi is a useful swichin to many threats, and is a secondary fighter counter. I dropped U-Turn for psychic because this team has some trouble with toxicroak. Keldo @ Choice Scarf Timid 4 HP 252 SpAtk 252 Spe Hydro Pump Surf Hidden Power Ice Secret Sword My one offensive Poke. He serves as a revenge killer and late game cleaner. If I lose rain for some reason he is my only real check to mixmence. (In rain Skarm takes about 45%) __________________ SS FC: 3439 0156 2549 White FC:1549 5311 6603

Dec 10th, 2012, 6:50:17 PM	#39
tw1g007 Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 7	Rotom-W + TTar/Scizor pairing will run circles round this team. If TTar/Scizor has Pursuit then Celebi will die for free if Celebi checks Rotom-W's Volt attack. Now if Blissey checks the Volt attack and the opponent has SD Lucario, it will setup on your Blissey and sweep your entire team for free if Keldeo is dead. I have played with many variations of your team and I can confidently say that these are major issues you will run into.

Dec 10th, 2012, 7:29:18 PM	#41
DrunkDemon Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 200 A Gansta's Paradise	Yeah, a Pursuit user along with something such as Keldeo is a major headache for defensive teams like this one. You should try to fit Baton Pass on Celebi so it isn't trapped, preferably over Stealth Rock. To get SR back on the team, you could change Blissey to a set of SR / Softboiled / Toxic / Seismic Toss. Losing wish support for Politoed is unfortunate, but with the prevalence of rain over other weathers in this metagame, it isn't that big of a deal. __________________ Miep: The season finale is thirty minutes of Andrea's feet BobbyVaporeon: is it sexy Miep: No Miep: it's veiny Miep: and with crusty nails

Dec 15th, 2012, 9:38:01 AM	#44
Bedlington Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 49	Ok, so I have an interesting thought. As anybody who has ever attempted to use a stall team knows, calm mind reuniclus is a huge threat, so I had a thought about a possible solution. Although gimicky and very circumstantial, what if one of your team members ran skill swap (such as Mew or Blissey). Not only would this deal with reuniclus but it would also counter poison heal gliscor. My main issue with it is that you need to sacrifice a valuable move slot for it. In the current metagame, your opponent can't really abuse skill swap much and it has other benefits such as against Conkeldunker (sorry for spelling) and trappers. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions - this was just theory moning of course.

Dec 15th, 2012, 1:50:14 PM	#46
Scarfwynaut Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,090 PA	Getting back in the grind, :). Pokemon Showdown! Username: Soviet Bubblegum Hall of Fame Standing: -- Current Ladder Standing on Pokemon Showdown!: 1800 my current team: http://pastebin.com/PtM5sLzm I am actually wondering if there are any good options over Blissey, whatever it would be it would have to cover Heatran, Volc, and Venusaur, the only other pokemon I think can do that is spd Dragonite, which I may play with later. Also, if my team no stally enough? I have SC garchomp and several pokemon speed creeping. __________________ I am not Scarf Wynaut on Pokemon Showdown. I am PrincesoBubblegum Last edited by Scarfwynaut; Dec 17th, 2012 at 9:01:51 PM.

Dec 16th, 2012, 11:57:10 AM	#47
Brave Bird spam Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 48	scarfwynaut, you have 3 fire weaknesses and only one defensive poke that resists it(garchomp is bulky but not that bulky), and since slowbro is your only resist, Nasty Plot infernape is troublesome in addition to the pokes you mentioned as nothing on your team can wall it. That said, Tentacruel could replace blissey because it is an exellent mixed sponge and walls nearly all infernape variants and volcarona(but use toxic so volc doesnt set up on tentacruel). Since tentacruel can spin, you could then replace forretress with ferrothorn because ferrothorn has better resistances. A simple way to fix your venusaur problem would be twave over body slam on jirachi. Jirachi can live an EQ or hp fire and paralyze it, and then your other pokes could kill it easily. Also, if you end up replacing forretress with ferrothorn, you should probably use a more physically defensive set with gyro ball to handle Kyurem-b. Also, why hp fire on forretress? Edit: I just realized that a lati twin could check venusaur, infernape, and heatran(if you use surf), though I don't know what you could replace. Scarf latios over garchomp seem like a bad idea because garchomp has a rock resist. Another idea is heal bell over SR on celebi, and SR on forretress (or ferrothorn if you decide to replace it) over hp fire or pain split because jirachi hates being burned by random scalds. Just a random idea I had, throwing them out there to see if they're any good. On a different note, I think my last post might have been swept away by all the discussion about teams and Skill swap, but I'm still curios about salamence. Is it absolute garbage and a waste of a teamslot or is it worth using? Last edited by Brave Bird spam; Dec 16th, 2012 at 6:46:57 PM.

Dec 16th, 2012, 5:22:47 PM	#50
Scarfwynaut Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,090 PA	If anyone was wondering, the reason I had HP fire on Forretress was Scizor. It was not the best fix though because Forretress often gets taken out and if there is only a bit or rain or magnzone support, it fails to stop scizor and I get swept. Scizor is far to common to make risks like that. I replaced HP fire for gyro-ball to hit Kyurem-Black and other dragons (and changed its evs accordingly). I also switched from Garchomp to Gliscor with the following moveset to counter Scizor. (full team here http://pastebin.com/9XnTn9Pe) Gliscor @ Toxic Orb Trait: Poison Heal EVs: 76 Spd / 180 Def / 252 HP Impish Nature - Protect - Earthquake - Taunt - Roost So far its working quite nicely, although losing my check will be sorely missed, but I needed a decicated Scizor counter. I may try Jellicent later as it performs a similar role, but you know, it blocks spins. I actually keep on losing to god dam CM-jirachi, I really want to run perish song on Celebi, but I can't seem to get another pokemon to run rocks. Jirachi needs its full moveset to work, Forretress and Gliscor are a terrible rock setters, and Blissey needs flamethrower for Venusaur. Any ideas? Make not though for any suggestions, I am trying to make a stall team based around Slowbro and Jirachi, so please don't suggest pokemon over them :). __________________ I am not Scarf Wynaut on Pokemon Showdown. I am PrincesoBubblegum