(VGC) VGCS (Whatever that stands for!) v2.0

[Golden Piloswine]

Taking it down so my buddy can't see it ;) I'll re-post it in a little.

[voodoo pimp]

31/even/30/31/31/31 is the best HP Ice spread (also 30/even/30/31/31/31 or 30/odd/30/31/31/31 if you're having trouble finding a seed for it), don't ever use HP Dragon unless you really hate Kingdra. Speaking of things you shouldn't use, you really need to lose Giga Impact. Return should still KO anything that doesn't resist it at +6x1.5, and locking yourself into a move that only lets you attack every other turn is an even worse idea than usual in a metagame where everything runs Protect.

The Raging Bull strategy seems kind of like TerraCott to me - devastating when it works, but any experienced player will see it coming a mile away (and unlike TerraCott, your Tauros lacks a STAB spread move, meaning it's much easier to play around). How often does it win you games? Seems like you could help your team by replacing that with something more reliable. Metagross or Scizor would probably be a good place to start, since you have a pretty substantial Terrakion weakness with your current team.

Overall, I'm having a little trouble following your team's strategy. You don't talk about the overall team, you don't talk about any synergy between the members other than Raging Bull (in fact, you point out the lack of synergy at several points), and you don't say specifically what you're having trouble with, so it's hard to give any real detailed advice. Unless you can come up with a more cohesive strategy, you may want to just start over with a clearer goal in mind.

[Golden Piloswine]

Thanks. The HP ice will really help me out. I'm not really sure on who to put where other than Heatran & Thundurs which sometimes doesn't work. I'm just finding trouble finding overall synergy, who would you recommend I replace with Scizor?

[The Knights of Wario Land]

Two things immediately pop into my head reading this:

-Flying Gem over Fight Gem on Mienshao, that should be fairly obvious as to why, since you need to power up Acrobatics as fast as possible.
-Don't EVER use Giga Impact in the VGC meta, instead go for something like Return. Does less damage, but is much more reliable then having to waste a turn.

Personally, I don't really see a point to the Tauros / Froslass strategy on this team, it's so easily stoppable nowadays, and it's not like the Swagger / Lum Berry strategy where Metagross is bulky enough to take hits and dish them out, Tauros is as frail as hell.

[Golden Piloswine]

Ok, other than the Swagger strategy is the rest of the team fine?

[tlyee61]

Originally Posted by Fat Golden Piloswine

Ok, other than the Swagger strategy is the rest of the team fine?

What do the seemingly random Defense EVs on Meinshao, Thundurus-T, Gyarados, Heatran and Tauros survive? BTW. that is not Wolfey's spread. His is 244 HP / 52 Def / 76 SAtk / 4 SDef / 132 Spd (even a few points can make a huge difference!)

[Golden Piloswine]

I made a mistake with Heatran, that was the old spread I had on it, basically, I was going for Wolfe's spread, but never got around to change it.

Tauros, Mienshao, & Thundurus-T have the added Ev's because I took it out of speed. I don't like leaving things up to chance, so if 2 things have the same speed there's a 50/50 chance of it going first. I don't like those odds, so I knocked off a few ev's for it to out speed the next biggest threat.

Tauros can out speed the Musketeers, and it's into SpDef to better absorb Frost Breath.
Mienshao can out speed Garchomp, and tested the ev's. It should let it survive a Politoed's Psychic. Thundurus-T can out speed those with Base 100 or below speed. And I put it into Defense, because I keep getting hit by Rock Slide, so in the off chance that Thundurus-T can survive it, I want to make sure it's chances are as good as possible.

Gyarados' spread is off of Smogon's site. I'm unsure what it let's it outspeed, and survive, and I know that's Terribad, but I had no idea what direction to take it.

I've changed Heatran's spread.

[tlyee61]

Originally Posted by Fat Golden Piloswine

I made a mistake with Heatran, that was the old spread I had on it, basically, I was going for Wolfe's spread, but never got around to change it.

Tauros, Mienshao, & Thundurus-T have the added Ev's because I took it out of speed. I don't like leaving things up to chance, so if 2 things have the same speed there's a 50/50 chance of it going first. I don't like those odds, so I knocked off a few ev's for it to out speed the next biggest threat.

Tauros can out speed the Musketeers, and it's into SpDef to better absorb Frost Breath.
Mienshao can out speed Garchomp, and tested the ev's. It should let it survive a Politoed's Psychic. Thundurus-T can out speed those with Base 100 or below speed. And I put it into Defense, because I keep getting hit by Rock Slide, so in the off chance that Thundurus-T can survive it, I want to make sure it's chances are as good as possible.

Gyarados' spread is off of Smogon's site. I'm unsure what it let's it outspeed, and survive, and I know that's Terribad, but I had no idea what direction to take it.

I've changed Heatran's spread.

oh ok, sorry if I came off as harsh. Meinshao does not currently live a Max Sp. Attack Politoed's Psychic. It needs a spread of 72 HP / 116 SpDef EVs. To me, it's not worth investing that much to live a move that is that uncommon. If found out what Gyarados' EVs do, so you might want to add them to the OP.

Maximum HP EVs allow Gyarados to tank most attacks with ease, especially those that are physically-based. The 140 Defense EVs further boost Gyarados's physical capabilities, as do the 52 EVs invested in Attack. The 20 Special Defense EVs guarantee that it can survive a Zapdos's Thunderbolt, provided a Wacan Berry is used. The remaining 44 EVs are put in Speed in order to guarantee that it outspeeds 4 Speed Cresselia, so it can Taunt Cresselia before it can do anything.

You're wasting EVs on Mienshao. If you use 20 SpDef EVs, you get the same stat. Also, if you reduce the speed EVs to 228, you get the same stat. You could move those 4 EVs to speed (a total of 236) to get another point OR move 4 to HP and 4 to Def. On Thundurus, you should use HP Ice with a 2 in Atk (any even number works) and 30 in Def. Then, you won't be wasting EVs in Def either!

I would change Giga Impact to Return on Tauros. That free turn is very bad in VGC, allowing the opponent to KO one of your Pokemon with ease. Psych Up on Frolass might sound good, but Frolass has a horrible Attack stat. You might want to replace it with something else.

[M. Rock]

So, if I understand this, the team's goal is to use this "Raging Bull" strategy? Aside from a few people bringing up the flaws of Choice-locked Giga Impact....I can't see this working too much. It weakens Tauros, making it all the easier for him to die to Fighting-type attacks, just in case they wouldn't have killed him already. And the tier itself is saturated with Fighting-types.
Also, Tauros does have a good base 110 Spe....but considering the amount of speed control on the GBU (Tailwind, Trick Room, etc.), as well as faster Pokemon like Latios and Jolteon, Tauros would need some support in the form of Tailwind, Icy Wind, or Thunder Wave to do well if you still want to use him. I see you have a Gyarados with Icy Wind, but you yourself said it just didn't seem to fit.
The biggest flaw in the team, really, is that you're basing things around an inneffective strategy that relies on a subpar Pokemon. You should think of a new idea for a team, but you don't necessarily have to start over. For example, I really like the idea of Gyarados + Thundurus-T....I think that is a solid offensive core to start off your team with. A Choice Banded Moxie Gyarados can be pretty scary if used correctly, and Thundurus-T already has ridiculous power, where you want to go with that set is up to you. Just forget Focus Blast, from experience I can say it's a horrible move to rely on in Doubles.
The next four teammates should be tailored to help your core succeed and patch up their weaknesses. I hear those two would pair well with DrizzleToad, who now gets Icy Wind and Helping Hand from the B2/W2 move tutors!
Anyway, that's my two cents.


EDIT: FUUUUUCK just remembered that both Gyara + Thundurus-T are weak to Rock Slide. Okay so take my suggestion with a bit of salt....regardless, you need to start over with a new idea. Also, this article will help you figure out how to develop more efficient EV Spreads: http://nuggetbridge.com/articles/mak...od-ev-spreads/

[Golden Piloswine]

Originally Posted by Fat tlyee61

Maximum HP EVs allow Gyarados to tank most attacks with ease, especially those that are physically-based. The 140 Defense EVs further boost Gyarados's physical capabilities, as do the 52 EVs invested in Attack. The 20 Special Defense EVs guarantee that it can survive a Zapdos's Thunderbolt, provided a Wacan Berry is used. The remaining 44 EVs are put in Speed in order to guarantee that it outspeeds 4 Speed Cresselia, so it can Taunt Cresselia before it can do anything.

You're wasting EVs on Mienshao. If you use 20 SpDef EVs, you get the same stat. Also, if you reduce the speed EVs to 228, you get the same stat. You could move those 4 EVs to speed (a total of 236) to get another point OR move 4 to HP and 4 to Def. On Thundurus, you should use HP Ice with a 2 in Atk (any even number works) and 30 in Def. Then, you won't be wasting EVs in Def either!

I would change Giga Impact to Return on Tauros. That free turn is very bad in VGC, allowing the opponent to KO one of your Pokemon with ease. Psych Up on Frolass might sound good, but Frolass has a horrible Attack stat. You might want to replace it with something else.

Thanks for Gyarados. I've been using the Psypoke stat calculator. Is that not good? What calculator are you using, because all my calculations have been bad since I started using it. I'll take a look closer at Mienshao, I was originally going for mixed, but since 2 of the moves are going to be Fake Out and Protect, I'm not sure if it's worth it. Giga Impact is bad. I dropped the ball there, I'll change it to Return. Froslass' Special Attack, and Attack are the same, 80. I believe Frost Breath is the only for sure OHKO move, is there anything else that can learn both Frost Breath & Psych Up?

I've changed Gyardos to Wacan, despite my disdain for Rock Slide, and Tauros now has Return.

[Golden Piloswine]

Originally Posted by Fat M. Rock

So, if I understand this, the team's goal is to use this "Raging Bull" strategy? Aside from a few people bringing up the flaws of Choice-locked Giga Impact....I can't see this working too much. It weakens Tauros, making it all the easier for him to die to Fighting-type attacks, just in case they wouldn't have killed him already. And the tier itself is saturated with Fighting-types.
Also, Tauros does have a good base 110 Spe....but considering the amount of speed control on the GBU (Tailwind, Trick Room, etc.), as well as faster Pokemon like Latios and Jolteon, Tauros would need some support in the form of Tailwind, Icy Wind, or Thunder Wave to do well if you still want to use him. I see you have a Gyarados with Icy Wind, but you yourself said it just didn't seem to fit.
The biggest flaw in the team, really, is that you're basing things around an inneffective strategy that relies on a subpar Pokemon. You should think of a new idea for a team, but you don't necessarily have to start over. For example, I really like the idea of Gyarados + Thundurus-T....I think that is a solid offensive core to start off your team with. A Choice Banded Moxie Gyarados can be pretty scary if used correctly, and Thundurus-T already has ridiculous power, where you want to go with that set is up to you. Just forget Focus Blast, from experience I can say it's a horrible move to rely on in Doubles.
The next four teammates should be tailored to help your core succeed and patch up their weaknesses. I hear those two would pair well with DrizzleToad, who now gets Icy Wind and Helping Hand from the B2/W2 move tutors!
Anyway, that's my two cents.


EDIT: FUUUUUCK just remembered that both Gyara + Thundurus-T are weak to Rock Slide. Okay so take my suggestion with a bit of salt....regardless, you need to start over with a new idea. Also, this article will help you figure out how to develop more efficient EV Spreads: http://nuggetbridge.com/articles/mak...od-ev-spreads/

If Krookodile has Anger Point available now I can replace Tauros with that only, Krookodile is weak -_-. And Primeape has lower speed. I'm going to keep playing with this team a little. I might replace Heatran, with something, but I'm not sure.

[tlyee61]

Originally Posted by Fat Golden Piloswine

Thanks for Gyarados. I've been using the Psypoke stat calculator. Is that not good? What calculator are you using, because all my calculations have been bad since I started using it. I'll take a look closer at Mienshao, I was originally going for mixed, but since 2 of the moves are going to be Fake Out and Protect, I'm not sure if it's worth it. Giga Impact is bad. I dropped the ball there, I'll change it to Return. Froslass' Special Attack, and Attack are the same, 80. I believe Frost Breath is the only for sure OHKO move, is there anything else that can learn both Frost Breath & Psych Up?

I've changed Gyardos to Wacan, despite my disdain for Rock Slide, and Tauros now has Return.

I use http://honko.byethost8.com/manly_calc.html , but Psypoke works just fine. I would go with a physical Mienshao. True, but base 80 isn't extremely good. (btw, Frost Breath is a 100% CRITICAL HIT move, no OHKO) Jynx, Regice, Smoochum and Smeargle are compatible with those two moves.

Originally Posted by Fat Golden Piloswine

If Krookodile has Anger Point available now I can replace Tauros with that only, Krookodile is weak -_-. And Primeape has lower speed. I'm going to keep playing with this team a little. I might replace Heatran, with something, but I'm not sure.

Krook could go with an interesting EQ+Levitate with Frosslass, the only problem is that he's weak to Ice. Heatran actually has great synergy with the rest of your team. I would consider replacing Frosslass and Tauros though. The strategy seems pretty gimmicky to me. Tauros is easily picked off by priority. Maybe replace them with a grass-type like Virizion to form a strong FWG Core with Gyara and Heatran. Another thing to put in place of them is a Fighting-type resist. Your team's only glaring weakness is Fighting.

[Golden Piloswine]

Originally Posted by Fat tlyee61

I use http://honko.byethost8.com/manly_calc.html , but Psypoke works just fine. I would go with a physical Mienshao. True, but base 80 isn't extremely good. (btw, Frost Breath is a 100% CRITICAL HIT move, no OHKO) Jynx, Regice, Smoochum and Smeargle are compatible with those two moves.



Krook could go with an interesting EQ+Levitate with Frosslass, the only problem is that he's weak to Ice. Heatran actually has great synergy with the rest of your team. I would consider replacing Frosslass and Tauros though. The strategy seems pretty gimmicky to me. Tauros is easily picked off by priority. Maybe replace them with a grass-type like Virizion to form a strong FWG Core with Gyara and Heatran. Another thing to put in place of them is a Fighting-type resist. Your team's only glaring weakness is Fighting.

Sorry I made a mistake, I meant Critical hit. I'm just used to saying OHKO. I'm going to change Froslass + Tauros out with something in order to makes this team better upon your recommendations. Froslass doesn't have Levitate.

[tlyee61]

Originally Posted by Fat Golden Piloswine

Sorry I made a mistake, I meant Critical hit. I'm just used to saying OHKO. I'm going to change Froslass + Tauros out with something in order to makes this team better upon your recommendations. Froslass doesn't have Levitate.

>.< yeah sorry I derped for a moment there. (it looks like it's floating!) good choice replacing froslass&tauros, they just didnt seem to go with the rest of your team. I would suggest Virizion because it makes a solid Fire Water Grass core with Heatran and Gyarados. (I was also testing these 3 mons and they served really well, resisting most types super effective against eachother!)

[Golden Piloswine]

Originally Posted by Fat tlyee61

>.< yeah sorry I derped for a moment there. (it looks like it's floating!) good choice replacing froslass&tauros, they just didnt seem to go with the rest of your team. I would suggest Virizion because it makes a solid Fire Water Grass core with Heatran and Gyarados. (I was also testing these 3 mons and they served really well, resisting most types super effective against eachother!)

I did add Virizion, and Scizor as well.

[tlyee61]

what do Virizion's EVs help it survive?

[Golden Piloswine]

Originally Posted by Fat tlyee61

what do Virizion's EVs help it survive?

Zapdos, Fire Gem, Heat Wave (Modest) 252

Volcarona, Fire Gem, Heat Wave (Modest) 252

Salamence, Dragon Gem, Draco Meteor (Modest) 252

Politoed, Ice Beam (Modest) 252

Ninetales, Drought, Heat Wave (+SpAtk) 252

Heatran, Drought/Fire Gem, Heat Wave (Modest) 252

Cresselia, Psyshock (+SpAtk) 252

Abomasnow, Ice Gem, Blizzard (+SpAtk) 252 - 3HKO

EDIT: What do Scizor's ev's allow it to survive?

[tlyee61]

Originally Posted by Fat Golden Piloswine

Zapdos, Fire Gem, Heat Wave (Modest) 252

Volcarona, Fire Gem, Heat Wave (Modest) 252
252+ SpA Fire Gem Volcarona Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Virizion: 224-266 (113.13 - 134.34%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Salamence, Dragon Gem, Draco Meteor (Modest) 252

Politoed, Ice Beam (Modest) 252

Ninetales, Drought, Heat Wave (+SpAtk) 252
252+ SpA Fire Gem Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Virizion in sun: 288-342 (145.45 - 172.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Heatran, Drought/Fire Gem, Heat Wave (Modest) 252
252+ SpA Fire Gem Heatran Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Virizion in sun: 330-390 (166.66 - 196.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Cresselia, Psyshock (+SpAtk) 252

Abomasnow, Ice Gem, Blizzard (+SpAtk) 252 - 3HKO

EDIT: What do Scizor's ev's allow it to survive?

All the bolded ones are incorrect. I don't know what calc you used, but I plugged your calcs into here (http://honko.byethost8.com/manly_calc.html) and the bold ones came out incorrect. As you can see, the do not even come CLOSE to a 2/3HKO. They are solid OHKOes. Also, Virizion cannot do much to Zapdos or Salamence without relying on a nonSTAB, imperfect accuracy move (Rock Slide or Stone Edge). It cannot even do much to opposing Cresselia. Luckily, you have partners capable of defeating these Pokemon. Overall, I would retest your calcs. I am unsure of Scizor 's EVs because you took the speed EVs out. Right now, they don't solve anything unless you figure it out by calcing. The only thing that Aaron mentioned in his RMT is that Garchomp EQs are a 3HKO. Sorry, but that's all I could think of.

[Golden Piloswine]

Originally Posted by Fat tlyee61

All the bolded ones are incorrect. I don't know what calc you used, but I plugged your calcs into here (http://honko.byethost8.com/manly_calc.html) and the bold ones came out incorrect. As you can see, the do not even come CLOSE to a 2/3HKO. They are solid OHKOes. Also, Virizion cannot do much to Zapdos or Salamence without relying on a nonSTAB, imperfect accuracy move (Rock Slide or Stone Edge). It cannot even do much to opposing Cresselia. Luckily, you have partners capable of defeating these Pokemon. Overall, I would retest your calcs. I am unsure of Scizor 's EVs because you took the speed EVs out. Right now, they don't solve anything unless you figure it out by calcing. The only thing that Aaron mentioned in his RMT is that Garchomp EQs are a 3HKO. Sorry, but that's all I could think of.

Well I think you did something incorrectly.

252+ SpA Fire Gem Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Virizion in sun: 288-342 (145.45 - 172.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I said Heat Wave, and not Fire Gem and sun, I said one or the other.

252+ SpA Fire Gem Heatran Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Virizion in sun: 330-390 (166.66 - 196.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With Heatran, a backwards slash means one or the other not both.

Volcarona was incorrect though.

[tlyee61]

Originally Posted by Fat Golden Piloswine

Well I think you did something incorrectly.

252+ SpA Fire Gem Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Virizion in sun: 288-342 (145.45 - 172.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I said Heat Wave, and not Fire Gem and sun, I said one or the other.

252+ SpA Fire Gem Heatran Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Virizion in sun: 330-390 (166.66 - 196.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With Heatran, a backwards slash means one or the other not both.

Volcarona was incorrect though.

Okay, sorry, my fault, I misread it on Heatran. Just to be clear though, you might want to put an actual "or" instead of a "/" so others don't get confused either.

Also, on Ninetails, you should assume a good player would have sun up while using Heat Wave. Also, you have no means of changing the weather so the sun would be up at all times. This is why I calced it with Sun up.
factoring in HW with fire gem&modest&sun up with 2 targets:
252+ SpA Fire Gem Ninetales Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Virizion in sun: 182-216 (91.91 - 109.09%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

[Golden Piloswine]

Originally Posted by Fat tlyee61

Okay, sorry, my fault, I misread it on Heatran. Just to be clear though, you might want to put an actual "or" instead of a "/" so others don't get confused either.

Also, on Ninetails, you should assume a good player would have sun up while using Heat Wave. Also, you have no means of changing the weather so the sun would be up at all times. This is why I calced it with Sun up.
factoring in HW with fire gem&modest&sun up with 2 targets:
252+ SpA Fire Gem Ninetales Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Virizion in sun: 182-216 (91.91 - 109.09%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

What I'm saying is, I thought Ninetales would have Iron Ball, instead of Fire Gem. But I don't know what those crazy kids are doing with their Ninetales these days.