np: BW Ubers Suspect Round 2 - U Can't Touch This (UPDATE: EVASION UNBANNED!)

[Lady Alex]

Made it

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I only ran into one evasion team, and it wasn't very effective at all. When I used it myself, I had similar results. Even though evasion has been disallowed because of an inherent luck factor it introduces, I don't think the Ubers environment struggles to deal with it at all. In most instances, I think evasion is more trouble than it's worth, and I don't see it as worth keeping banned.

[VaporeonIce]

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

The replay you showed is kind of misleading, TI should have spammed ESpeed on Ninjask instead of letting it pass a Sub to Drifblim. If he had done that, you would have never been able to bring Drifblim in with a speed boost.

252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Ninjask: 207-243 (63.69 - 74.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ninjask survives with enough to make a Sub on turn 1 (which was the first move), use Protect on turn 2 (remember, Sub's in tact) and pass turn 3. So actually, the pass was guaranteed against Arceus, barring a crit (or, like, Overheat or something).

[jonathanrp]

Originally Posted by Fat VaporeonIce

252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Ninjask: 207-243 (63.69 - 74.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ninjask survives with enough to make a Sub on turn 1 (which was the first move), use Protect on turn 2 (remember, Sub's in tact) and pass turn 3. So actually, the pass was guaranteed against Arceus, barring a crit (or, like, Overheat or something).

You could usually lead with a Dragon Tail 'mon

usually BP people ragequit the instant ninjask's recipient gets dtail'd out

[Melee Mewtwo]

Ah yes, you are right Ninjask would have been able to pass the speed boost if he ESpeed spammed but not a Substitute (ESpeed hits before Baton Pass). Knowing the calcs, the smartest plan would have been to Shadow Claw spam until he could KO with the ESpeed. This way Ninjask wouldn't have been able to set up a Sub nor safely pass into Drifblim. (he tried to SD off the bat and then spammed Shadow Claw instead of Espeed)

[GG Unit]

Originally Posted by Fat jonathanrp

You could usually lead with a Dragon Tail 'mon

usually BP people ragequit the instant ninjask's recipient gets dtail'd out

That's not foolproof against a good BP team though. You basically need a Dragon with >120 base Attack or offensive Groudon to be guaranteed to break a 252/252+ Ninjask's sub. Plus, if Ninjask just spams Sub+Protect, there's a ~40% chance at least one of five Dragon Tails misses.

Outside of Haze or Perish Song, the best bet is to have a mon with something like Roar or Taunt that also has the potential to take out Espeon if they choose to switch it in.

[jonathanrp]

Originally Posted by Fat GG Unit

That's not foolproof against a good BP team though. You basically need a Dragon with >120 base Attack or offensive Groudon to be guaranteed to break a 252/252+ Ninjask's sub. Plus, if Ninjask just spams Sub+Protect, there's a ~40% chance at least one of five Dragon Tails misses.

Outside of Haze or Perish Song, the best bet is to have a mon with something like Roar or Taunt that also has the potential to take out Espeon if they choose to switch it in.

giratina-o.

it can shadow sneak once the ninjask user gets low on heatlh if need be

[AfroThunderRule]

Wasn't the best course of action simply using E-Speed on Drifblim during his Disable turn so the disables that instead? I mean it's not like he needed E-Speed all that much against Furai as Shadow Claw hits 4/6 members for SE damage.

[Furai]

Originally Posted by Fat AfroThunderRule

Wasn't the best course of action simply using E-Speed on Drifblim during his Disable turn so the disables that instead? I mean it's not like he needed E-Speed all that much against Furai as Shadow Claw hits 4/6 members for SE damage.

The things is, that you don't usually expect Drifblim to run it. However, I almost always go for the Substitute first, just in case Arceus goes for the Swords Dance, or as you said, the E-Speed. Then, I Minimize, and Disable that Shadow Claw, leaving Arceus prone to my BP chain.

BP chains aren't really that good, but they're a lot of fun. You need everything to go just as planned; it's either you 6-0 or you lose. Every member has its role, and it must stay alive throughout the entire match to win the game. Mawile can be a nice addition for those chains if you want the Normal, Ghost, and Dark resistance, which can be quite a pain.

[Imma Fly]

This post is simply to identify myself as the alt DerpBoys who has met the reqs.
Here is the link:

http://trixarian.net/paste/302db

*I tried uploading the image a few times to the page, but I still failed and therefore I settled with giving the link. Hope it would suffice though.

Ps. This screenshot was taken on 10 December, so my ranking may have dropped since then, but I was rank #20 at the time of my completion of the reqs.

[Hack He Must]

Just question.. When will the identification thread be posted? It says in the description that there will be a separate thread, but many people seem to post here instead.

It's kinda confusing, could someone clarify this?

[jonathanrp]

Originally Posted by Fat Hack He Must

Just question.. When will the identification thread be posted? It says in the description that there will be a separate thread, but many people seem to post here instead.

It's kinda confusing, could someone clarify this?

yeah, a lot of us (me included) post here just so nothing happens when it comes time to identify.

There'll eventually be an identification thread though

[Rediamond]

I laddered up to about 1800 for the day and stopped. I saw one Evasion Team total, and that was underwhelming. In a tier where one turn of setup can turn virtually anything into an unstoppable force bound to take down or heavily damage at least one Pokemon, having a chance to make it slightly less probable the opponent hits (and likely KO's) is almost irrelevent. There are very few Pokemon who would ever use Double Team over another setup move, which should prove that Evasion is far from broken.

[Lavos Spawn]

Sorry if I'm being a pain, but when is the voting thread actually going up? It was scheduled to be posted last Saturday, but nothing yet. I understand that Jibaku is really inactive and bojangles has apparently disappeared, so hopefully some other mod or admin will step up and take this over for the time being. All we need is a voting thread.

[Theorymon]

Well folks just in case you didn't get the news, Evasion got unbanned! heres how the votes went.

Do Not Retain: 18
Retain: 8
Abstain: 2

As for the next test... well the SPL tournament might delay that. We'll have to talk about this in the Ubers council, but something will be posted as soon as we decide on how we are gonna tackle the last clause tests!

[Lavos Spawn]

Shocked that something so obviously uncompetitive and skill-less was unbanned, but hey, if the majority deems it to be not broken than who am I to argue? ._.

seriously guys what are you doing, I lost to Drifblim because of this

20:05 kd24 yeah lavos
20:05 Lavos hey
20:05 kd24 agree entirely on the ubers thing
20:05 kd24 minimize bp drifblim is ridiculous
20:05 Lavos idgi man
20:05 kd24 and it makes no sense to unban evasion
20:05 kd24 as a whole
20:05 Lavos it's not that evasion is a good strategy
20:05 kd24 even if its not very good its just
20:05 Lavos but it's completely uncompetitive
20:05 kd24 so non competiive
20:05 Lavos and messes up good players sometimes
20:05 Lavos for no good reason
20:06 kd24 all it is is a way for bad players
20:06 kd24 to luck their way
20:06 kd24 to beating good players
20:06 kd24 decisions that bridge the skill gap
20:06 kd24 are never a good idea

that pretty much sums it up

[kd24]

I think this was a really bad decision for a lot of reasons, but I really wasn't vocal during the process so I can't really complain. That being said, fighting minimize Baton Pass Drifblim is gonna be the worst thing ever =[

[Focus]

So THIS is what the Mayans predicted...

What else can I say? Every time I faced evasion moves or tried them myself, they were not only pointless, but actually a liability. Double Team just sucks, and only Drifblim seems to have a competitive use for Minimize. Even then, Baton Pass is significantly harder to consistently win with in Ubers than a conventional team archetype. Evasion moves are an additional luck factor, but apparently very minor one. I wouldn't feel right about banning Brightpowder or Confuse Ray for the same reason. I'm not saying that unbanning evasion moves was for sure the right thing to do (I'm not fully convinced it was), but rather that if evasion moves can be at all a detriment to the metagame, this testing period sure has not shown that to me.

[Pocket]

Lavos Spawn / kd24, if Evasion ever proves to be problematic to this metagame, we can always re-visit it. It's not the end of the world :o

[Hugin]

Originally Posted by Fat kd24

I think this was a really bad decision for a lot of reasons, but I really wasn't vocal during the process so I can't really complain. That being said, fighting minimize Baton Pass Drifblim is gonna be the worst thing ever =[

Rain+Thunder. Spam it. If you see a Drifblim in the preview, lead with Ogre, lock yourself into Thunder if they lead with Drifblim. If they lead with something else, play normally, if Drifblim comes in, switch to something with Thunder, lock yourself in. Ogre outspeeds, so you should never face a Drifblim with more than one turn to set up, and it can't live more than a single hit without a sash. DB uses Minimize, you OHKO. DB uses sub, you break it. As long as you're faster, it loses, and even if you're slower, at worst it can pass a sub or a single Minimize. Not exactly gamebreaking.

There are 2 exceptions. If you're running without Rain(or with a Kyogre without Thunder), which is relatively rare, then counters become harder. In that case, Perish Song, Haze, or similar Phazing moves that don't have accuracy are the best bet, and can usually fit easily on a team(Darkrai).
Alternatively, you might get Mean Looked with a scarfer locked into Focus Blast or similar, then have that passed to Drifblim. In that case, you got outplayed, which is your own fault.

[Furai]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

Shocked that something so obviously uncompetitive and skill-less was unbanned, but hey, if the majority deems it to be not broken than who am I to argue? ._.

seriously guys what are you doing, I lost to Drifblim because of this

20:05 kd24 yeah lavos
20:05 Lavos hey
20:05 kd24 agree entirely on the ubers thing
20:05 kd24 minimize bp drifblim is ridiculous
20:05 Lavos idgi man
20:05 kd24 and it makes no sense to unban evasion
20:05 kd24 as a whole
20:05 Lavos it's not that evasion is a good strategy
20:05 kd24 even if its not very good its just
20:05 Lavos but it's completely uncompetitive
20:05 kd24 so non competiive
20:05 Lavos and messes up good players sometimes
20:05 Lavos for no good reason
20:06 kd24 all it is is a way for bad players
20:06 kd24 to luck their way
20:06 kd24 to beating good players
20:06 kd24 decisions that bridge the skill gap
20:06 kd24 are never a good idea

that pretty much sums it up

Originally Posted by Fat kd24

I think this was a really bad decision for a lot of reasons, but I really wasn't vocal during the process so I can't really complain. That being said, fighting minimize Baton Pass Drifblim is gonna be the worst thing ever =[

Pretty much what Pocket said. If any set proves to be broken in the metagame, namely Minimize Driflblim, we can always go for a complex ban. We all agree that Double Team sucks, it just takes too much time to setup, but Minimize is a different story. I think we need to let the metagame adapt first, and then see the impact of Evasion moves on it; only then we can decide if it's broken or not, if it's competitive or not, and it it's skill-less or not.

[IstheCakeReallyaLie]

Would it be possible to get Mini/DTeamPass banned, but not evasion moves in general? I think it could be a voting option, at least. Thoughts?

[Princess Bri]

Eh, seems too complex for most peoples' tastes.. As Furai said, "Basically, Evasion is High Reward, Even Higher Risk; not worth it. "

I pretty much agree. If you get hit while setting up, you're down a Poke & SubDisable is relatively easy to play around. It's not the end of the world imo, that was yday.

[IstheCakeReallyaLie]

Originally Posted by Fat Princess Bri

Eh, seems too complex for most peoples' tastes.. As Furai said, "Basically, Evasion is High Reward, Even Higher Risk; not worth it. "

I pretty much agree. If you get hit while setting up, you're down a Poke & SubDisable is relatively easy to play around. It's not the end of the world imo, that was yday.

SmashPass is banned in RU already, though, but I see where you're coming from. Slippery slope.

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Smashpass was also broken across all of its users.

[IbanezObsession]

This really is going to suck the life out of the Ubers meta...Considering it's one of the only balanced right now, unbanning something as uncompetitive as this just makes me shake my head. I'd like to know why anyone would want that unbanned.