Pure Hackmons

[Toraen]

I feel Hackmons could use it's own introductory thread, even if only so it can have a link from !om someday. So here's an OP shamelessly stolen from based on Verbatim's BH thread. Discuss your wondertombs/balls and killer deoxys's here.

What is this tier?
Hackmons is a tier where one can use any moves and ability on any pokemon and have 252 EVs in every stat. Another thing to note is that there are no clauses. You can have 6 Dialgas if you want and Spore the entire opposing team if they let you.

This metagame can be seen as the Uber to Balanced Hackmons' OU (not a perfect analogy), where the more centralizing abilities and moves have been banned.

What can I expect?
When building a team, be ready for ridiculous combos like No Guard + OHKO moves, and Wonder Guard pokemon with no weaknesses. These are far from the only new challenges in the tier though, as many other previously mutually exclusive pokemon, moves, and abilities can come together.

For a more detailed listing of common threats, take a look at the Pure Hackmons Threatlist, managed by ForeverPerfectXI.

Where can I play?
Hackmons is currently hosted on Aesoft's online competitive pokemon simulator, Pokemon Showdown.

I have an idea for a set...
Great! If you've had success with or encountered an interesting set feel free to post it in this thread. However, please keep discussion to sets you've either seen in battle or tried out yourself.

FAQ
Starting this off with two questions I've seen a bit. As the thread progresses, more may be added.

Can I use CAP Pokemon/Abilities/Moves? Or Magikarp's Revenge?

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No, only moves, abilities, and pokemon available in the games may be used.

How do I hurt Wonder Guarders?

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Attacks made by Pokemon with Mold Breaker/Teravolt/Turboblaze will ignore the ability of the target pokemon. Removing Wonder Guard with an ability-changing move (except for skill swap) will let any attack work as normal.

A Mold Breaker's attacks will pop the Air Balloon on electric or poison/dark users, even if they are behind a substitute. Tricking away the balloon before they can use substitute will also work. They will then have a Ground weakness for the rest of the battle. Gravity negates the balloon entirely while in effect.

Scrappy or Foresight/Odor Sleuth will allow you to hit Spiritomb and Sableye with Fighting-type moves, which they are weak to without the Ghost-provided immunity.

If none of the above is available, indirect damage via entry hazards and status effects still work. Struggle gets a special mention, as it will hit as long as the Wonder Guarder isn't behind a Substitute.

Most importantly, while this tier can be very frustrating at times, remember to have fun!

[Uselesscrab]

I play Balanced Hackmons but I would like to get into this tier also. Can someone post some sample sets so I understand the scope of the tier?

[evillocke]

I LOVE using this set:

Electrode @ Air Balloon
Trait: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Fissure

If it gets a sub up, it is nearly impossible to beat. Better pray you have mold breaker.

[Toraen]

Electrode's a pretty common wonder guarder, since it's the fastest one with no weaknesses. You have no way of stopping Whirlwind though, which hurts that set since it lacks recovery and it can only sub up to 3 times (adjust your HP to not be divisible by 4 - won't be relevant every time but may be handy). I don't know the rest of your team, but I'd say something else (preferably with Mold Breaker) take Stealth Rock and give Electrode something to stop Phazing. Taunt or Magic Coat work, but avoid Ingrain - I actually see that on some Electrode despite it's balloon-cancelling effect (to be fair, few people even know about that part). Locking your retreat against EQ/Fissure while removing your immunity to it won't end well.

Also, since an example set was asked for, might as well get this monster out of the way:

Deoxys-S @ Lum Berry/Focus Sash/Choice Scarf
Trait: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid/Jolly Nature
- Sheer Cold
- Fissure
- Gastro Acid/Whirlwind
- Spore/Toxic/Trick

Not the only or unarguably best variant, but something along these lines is what I keep running into. This guy forces you to have Wonder Guarders/Sturdy Shedinja (the latter is bugged to not work as of this post though). Prankster Spore is a check IF it's not carrying Lum Berry (likewise for Pure Power Espeed if it doesn't have Focus Sash), but the only Pokemon that are even close to true counters are Wonder Guarders and they have to watch out for status moves on the switch in. With entry hazard support, it can be troublesome even to WGers, as it can force switches with Gastro Acid/Whirlwind and rack up the residual damage.

Most people run both Fissure and Sheer Cold because of SC's low PP and the fact that Fissure can pick off Electrode and friends that have lost their balloons. You'll see some that also carry Guillotine and/or Horn Drill, but there's really not much point to taking either of them.

I didn't slash it, but sometimes you see choice scarf on these as well (usually dropping the status moves). That variant is far easier to play around though and I don't think the boost to speed is worth it (it only adds the ability to beat other non-sash Deoxys-S, at the cost of being worthless against WG). The strikethroughed stuff applies to non-trick variants, but I see surprisingly few Trickscarf Deoxys so I forgot to mention it.

[Doolez]

Such a great tier, easily my favourite. I find that it is quite similar to Balanced Hackmons, although slightly less aggressive with less Contrary users/attacking moves etc. This can probably be attributed to Wonder Guard though. If I was going to give tips to making a Pure Hackmons team I'd say the following:

You must account for:
- Wonder Guard (whether it's on Spiritomb/Sableye or on a Jolteon/Electrode/other electric type with a Balloon).
- Imposter Blissey
- Giratina, usually with Magic Bounce. But have also seen Curse/Perish Trappers and many others. Commonly used as it's the most bulky pokemon.
- Deoxys-S, usually with No Guard-Sheer Cold or Mold Breaker Spore.

I'd say these are 4 of the main threats, there are obviously many others. All can be easily accounted for, but without necessary preparation can easily defeat a team on their own.

[Toraen]

Imposter is a lot less common than in Balanced, since the presence of Wonder Guard just makes the Imposter unable to sweep most of the time. If it copies a Wonder Guarder, it usually doesn't get to do much with the stolen set. Still a good scouting tool though and can check most Mold Breakers.

For another thing banned from BH, a standard Trapper:

Giratina/Lugia @Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Impish/Careful
-Perish Song/Curse
-Protect/Substitute
-Recover/Wish
-Spore/Substitute/Safeguard/Taunt

Perish/Curse trapping is a great way to eliminate opposing walls and some offensive threats, as subs or common abilities will not block either method. Curse takes longer to work and has a risky setup, but means you don't have to switch out on the turn the opponent faints.

Protect lets you stall for turns against attackers to gain Leftovers recovery and wait out the Curse/Perish Song. Substitute blocks status users from doing much of anything. A set with both is also fairly common (which is why sub is listed as an option twice). You obviously should switch on the last turn if using Perish Song, so passing a Wish is a decent option to prevent the opponent's final attack from crippling your switch. This isn't entirely necessary though (especially if Spiritomb/etc. is your switch-in), so Recover and its variants are fine too.

What I've listed for the 4th slot are not the only options, and you should consider this the slot you use to beat specific threats. Offensive moves are an option to not become taunt bait, but don't really help the set's role. Reflecting Taunt with Magic Coat or using your own Taunt would generally be a better idea.

Pokemon other than the commonly used Giratina and Lugia can of course pull this off, so long as they have good walling stats and typing for what you're trying to trap.

There is some merit to using Mean Look and a different ability (and some actual usage of this), but it takes longer to set up and doesn't deal with Magic Bounce at all.

As for beating it: Shed Shell (a rarity, given how crucial the item slot can be), U-turn, and Volt Switch are nearly surefire ways of escaping. Gastro Acid or Taunt can be used by faster pokemon to avoid being trapped or force the trapper out, respectively. Whirlwind (and less reliably Dragon Tail due to substitutes) can be used as well. As a last resort, you can try to KO the trapper, but it will be tough to secure a KO before time is up. You probably won't see PerishTrap Giratina trying to set up on your Kyurem-B or No Guard Deoxys-S in the first place.

[AfroThunderRule]

I remember the good old days. I usually run two Wonder Guard users to combat Gastro Acid spam a bit better, they don't have to have no weak Pokemon, something like Kyogre still makes a wonderful Wonder Guard user.

Also I really, really like abusing Toxic Spikes in the tier.

[akela]

Wonder Guard Meloetta pisses so many people off. Running Relic Song just drives people insane.

[Uselesscrab]

That sounds like a cool idea.

[Relados]

The (Deoxys-Speed) @ Focus Sash
Trait: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Sheer Cold
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Gastro Acid

I run a team of six of these, only altering ability, item, or a move to deal with specific pokemon that ruin it. Interestingly enough, the only two things I've seen that can shut this down is any steel with Sturdy or Prankster Spore, which both can be taken care of via Gastro Acid and Magic Bounce, respectively.

[Doolez]

Weather. The answer to hackmons is weather and hazards. In my whole team I run only 4 attacking/damaging moves and it seems to have worked quite well so far...

[ForeverPerfectXI]

Hazards are definitely the most important part of hackmons, the other most important part is spore. With no sleep clause a game can get out of hand fast.

Also, there is a list of the most common pokemon and the abilities they carry here:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3470763

Also, Wonderguard Palkia is the most underrated threat in the tier. Most teams carry only one dragon move at most--making Palkia easily the most threatening and durable offensive Wonderguard user.

[Doolez]

Wonder Guard Palkia does sound quite interesting. What kind of moveset would he run? 4 attacking moves? I can see Magic Coat working well with it to stop Prankster Spores etc

[Toraen]

A decent/common set is:

Palkia @Leftovers/Lum Berry
Trait:Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid/Modest
-Spacial Rend/Dragon Pulse
-Magic Coat/Substitute
-Shell Smash
-Aura Sphere/Water Spout/Gastro Acid

I actually see a fair amount of dragons, but Wonder Guard Dialga is the only common dragon that feels safe switching in to Palkia's Spacial Rend. Palkia can carry Aura Sphere for that though. Aura Sphere is also great for any non-ghost evasion abusers (evasion isn't that common but it can really mess with teams that don't expect it). Giratina probably won't try to set up against boosted Spacial Rend though, so they're not much of an issue.

You could put Gastro Acid on this to try and play around other Wonder Guarders, but I feel that those are better dealt with by using other team members. Most teams have multiple WGers and can just switchstall Gastro when you lack any other method of hurting them. You can also probably just Magic Coat their status moves if you want to keep Palkia in anyway.

Also Relados, that Deoxys team is trolled pretty hard by Wonder Guarders with U-turn and Magic Coat. Also you lose if any hazards end up on your side and they have a Pure Power sweeper.

[Dakar]

I thought of this combo/set this morning, and it works pretty well, as long as Deoxys-D has Recover:

Arceus @ Soundproof
-Shed Shell
- Perish Song
- Recover
- Extremespeed
- Simple Beam

And...

Deoxys-D @ Shadow Tag
- Lum Berry
- Recover
- Toxic
- Encore
- Rapid Spin

Basically, Arceus uses Perish Song, is immune, and switches to Deoxys-D to stall out the 3 turns. They can both work on their own as well.

[Toraen]

I'm not seeing how that Arceus is effective. It can't trap in any way on it's own, so anyone who expects a Shadow Tagger to come in after perish song will just switch out. I also don't see why you have Soundproof if you're just going to switch out (and have Shed Shell so you'll virtually always be able to). Simple Beam is worse than Gastro Acid, and I'm not sure why it needs to be able to nullify abilities in the first place. Extremespeed is nice but without boosting isn't doing much for a defensively-oriented mon. The entire set doesn't seem to know what it wants to do.

That Deoxys can't beat Magic Bouncers on its own (Toxic and Encore are both deflected) which really hurts its utility as a trapper. Rapid Spin is nice on a trapper to keep the spin target from going to a spinblocker though.

[Mari]

Lolz, look at my team

...

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Arceus @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Bold Nature
- Perish Song
- Heal Order
- Rest
- Heal Bell

Arceus @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Bold Nature
- Perish Song
- Heal Order
- Rest
- Heal Bell

Arceus @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Bold Nature
- Perish Song
- Heal Order
- Rest
- Heal Bell

Arceus @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Bold Nature
- Perish Song
- Heal Order
- Rest
- Heal Bell

Arceus @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Bold Nature
- Perish Song
- Heal Order
- Rest
- Heal Bell

Arceus @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Bold Nature
- Perish Song
- Heal Order
- Rest
- Heal Bell

[Arcticblast]

No Guard Sheer Cold Deoxys-S literally 6-0s that team.

6-0 is representative of the PP spent at the end of the battle.

[Toraen]

That team also beats itself to death against a single copy of Taunt and has no answer to volt-turn/shed shell.

[Jelandee]

Yeah, you're always gonna need something for those Deoxys-S', as they're running all over the meta as of now, and a while. :I

[Arcticblast]

I don't really play Pure Hackmons (much preferring Balanced myself), but out of curiosity, is Sturdy worth running on non-Shedinja Pokemon or is it better to just stack Wonder Guard users and hope for the best?

[Toraen]

Sturdy is only worth using over Wonder Guard if the pokemon has too many common weaknesses (especially if an Ice weakness is included). Even then, you won't see sturdy much since it's broken for regular damaging moves by sand/hail and hazards. As a result it can't save you from things other than OHKO moves (like Pure Power, Contrary, etc.) that Wonder Guard would help against.

[Doolez]

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

I don't really play Pure Hackmons (much preferring Balanced myself), but out of curiosity, is Sturdy worth running on non-Shedinja Pokemon or is it better to just stack Wonder Guard users and hope for the best?

No way. It's only necessary to have one or two Wonder Guarders on a team. Although Wonder Guard is a good ability it's easily beatable. For example, one Prankster could take out all without Magic Coat.

Or at least that's what I find....

[Toraen]

I only put two WGers at most, and I'd love to get away with just one (more room for offensive abilities yes plz). Having just one leaves you with a tough choice to make if Deo-S lands a Gastro Acid on it though.

Also, I wanted to bring one of the more interesting WG sets in here for discussion:

Spiritomb/Sableye @Flame Orb
Level 2
Trait:Wonder Guard
-Pain Split
-Curse
-Magic Coat/Substitute
-Filler:Endeavor/Recover/Trick/Spore/Toxic/Psycho Shift/etc.

Annoying to face without Mold Breaker Pursuit, to say the least. It can easily shrug off residual damage via Pain Split while providing a threatening offense so long as the opponent has no sub up. Curse gets around that, and due to the odd HP doesn't even take off the full 50% of its own health. Being low level is obviously what fuels pain split, and makes most residual damage far less threatening since it's rounded down against the low HP.

Notably, this set beats Imposter in a manner similar to Shedinja, but it doesn't lose to an errant Sand Stream/Snow Warning.

Flame Orb lets the WGer avoid status that would otherwise cripple it, and gives it free switch-ins after it's activated. Also, it allows the use of Spore or Toxic on the set without worrying about Magic Bounce. Again, the down-rounding of the residual damage makes its drawback much less of an issue.

Scrappy is also a viable counter to the Ghost/Darks as usual, especially since the ability doesn't announce itself as Mold Breaker does. Magic Guard, although not common, also does well against this once behind its sub. Taunt will stop the WGer from doing much of anything if you can land it. Endeavor is the only viable attacking move it can run but it can be ignored by Ghosts and has low PP.

Aside from stuff I've mentioned (most of which I fail to have on my team at any given time) how do you all go about checking/countering this set? I've also never run this myself so I'm unsure of the best movesets for it. Is there anything I should narrow down in my above write-up (or anything I outright missed)?

Also set needs a catchy name and I can't think of one because I'm tired.

[Doolez]

In response to Toraen, seeing as my game revolves around hazards/sand I find these less of a pain then others probably do. If you Whirlwind them after a Curse they're usually less than 40-50% and with sufficient hazards up they die upon the next switch in. I also find if you can Trick a Choice item onto them it reduces their impact significantly.

It is a good set though. Have seen it destroy unprepared teams.