Lucario

[Ithilanor]

Originally Posted by Fat Challenger

I agree with everything else you said, but in my experience, Landorus needs to be weakened before Lucario can finish him in one hit with ES.

Yeah, you need to get a bit of prior damage on Lando:
+2 ES, 252 EVs, Adamant, Life Orb - 75%-88%. Small chance of a OHKO after SR.
+2 ES, 252 EVs, Jolly, Life Orb - 68%-80%. 2HKO.

[frogoholic101]

Originally Posted by Fat Dr Ciel

You should give it Air Balloon so it doesn't get beaten by ground types.

Why bother when you could just kill everything? It outspeeds and OHKOs the ground types after a boost. Air Balloon is useless on Lucario.

[jle1076]

Life orb gets some vital KO's, besides a +2 LO Ice Punch will OHKO any ground/flying threat on the switch

[Scarfwynaut]

Yes everyone please stop advocating air balloon on Lucario, how else would I counter it with Hippowdon.

[BurningMan]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

Yes everyone please stop advocating air balloon on Lucario, how else would I counter it with Hippowdon.

meh without life orb it hits so weak, you can counter it with almost any defensive Pokemon or faster offensive Pokemon, because it loses a lot of OHKOs. Air Baloon might give you a set-up opportunity, but what do you need that for when you can't sweep regardless.
Lucarios typing alone offers you so many set-up opportunities Air Baloon isn't worth it.

[Scarfwynaut]

Well I was joking, I have 3 Lucario counters right now from some odd reason. But in all seriousness if I only had Hippowdon counter, like I usually do, air balloon would give me a heck lot of a problem as then I have nothing else to hit the mother fucker. I would pretty much have to use seismic toss on Blissey every turn, for example, in fear of it coming in.

But please don't consern yourself with my woes, lets just make both our lives easier and use life orb.

[Tabuu]

Set of Worthy Recognition

Nature: Adamant (+Attack, -Sp. Attack)
EV Spread: 4 HP/252 Attack/252 Speed
Item of Choice: Life Orb
Moveset: Swords Dance/Close Combat/Extreme Speed/Bullet Punch or Crunch or Ice Punch

This set is so damaging late-game. With +2 all slower threats can kiss their existence good-bye as they are smashed by a +2 Close Combat. However some threats can take a hit and retaliate. Hippowdon can take a +2 and just hang in there to KO with Earthquake. However even the mighty Skamory after SR damage falls to +2 Close Combat. Politoed (not scarfed) will die to a +2 Lucario. Dnite after Rocks will fall to +2 CC. If any Lati twins walk into a +2 CC, they will die or fall to ES next turn. However the real gold is Extreme Speed and Bullet Punch. Extreme Speed after +2 and SR, allow him to take out some top-tier threats. Tornadus-Therian, Latios, Thundurus-Therian, Techni-Loom, Infernape, Ninetales, Choice Scarf Rotom-W (other varients die to Close Combat +2), MoxieMence, Jolteon, Hydreigon, Espeon, Dugtrio, and maybe a couple more; note that with some prior damage, Landorus will fall into this list. Bullet Punch stops Terrakion, Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Gengar. Crunch destroys Slowbro, Jellicent and Reuniclus. Ice Punch will take care of Gliscor. Lucario is definitely a tad harder to use but still quite viable. He even has an Ubers standing ;).

[Siggu]

Well, the main reason SD Lucario is a rare pokémon may be Terrakion, whose SD set is faster, has a slightly higher Attack stat (Jolly Terrakion has 7 more Attack than Adamant Lucario) and trades ExtremeSpeed and super-effective coverage with a far better STAB combination (But... who needs super-effective coverage when you have two extremely powerful STAB moves?), making a double dance set viable in it, while Lucario isn't good at double dancing as it somehow cannot learn Iron Head, and better defenses

[allthenamesaretaken]

Originally Posted by Fat Siggu

Well, the main reason SD Lucario is a rare pokémon may be Terrakion, whose SD set is faster, has a slightly higher Attack stat (Jolly Terrakion has 7 more Attack than Adamant Lucario) and trades ExtremeSpeed and super-effective coverage with a far better STAB combination (But... who needs super-effective coverage when you have two extremely powerful STAB moves?), making a double dance set viable in it, while Lucario isn't good at double dancing as it somehow cannot learn Iron Head, and better defenses

Double Dance Terrakion is awful. Luke and Terrakion aren't really the same, since one has a way to beat priority/scarfers/fast mons, while the other just hits a bunch of stuff really hard before it dies

[False Sense]

Interesting that this is being brought up. I've used Lucario before, and I can safely say that is does do an AMAZING job at late game cleaning. It requires support to work at it's fullest, but can be pretty devastating is used right.

The key to using Lucario is (I think) taking care of faster threats that can survive Extreemspeed/Bullet Punch. On an old team of mine (which can be found in my signature) I used a large amount of paralysis support to allow Lucario free setup turns and the ability to spam Close Combat. That's just my idea, anyway. Any other thoughts on how best to use Lucario?

[SJCrew]

Interesting that this is being brought up. I've used Lucario before, and I can safely say that is does do an AMAZING job at late game cleaning. It requires support to work at it's fullest, but can be pretty devastating is used right.

This is funny because I've been using Lucario a lot more lately and I'm finding that he doesn't need any sort of support at all. His ease of use usually means that I am not building a team around him, but instead putting him on because his services are required. This is exactly the sort of thing you should expect from a good OU Pokemon.

Now we all know that Lucario has his fair share of checks. But depending on what HP they have when he gets his +2, that might not even matter. Extremespeed is an invaluable tool in such an offensive OU where even Scarfers creep each other.

[Organization Member XIV]

How do people feel about a Nasty Plot set?

Lucario@Life Orb
Modest/Timid
Steadfast
EVs: 252 SpAtk, 252 Speed, 4 HP
Nasty Plot
Aura Sphere
Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball
Hidden Power Ice

This set can be surprising if people do not completely understand what Lucario can do. Nasty Plot is for obvious reasons, Aura Sphere is a powerful STAB and never misses. The choice between Dark Pulse and Shadow Ball is yours. Dark Pulse does not get you perfect neutral coverage alongside Aura Sphere, but the flinch chance is nice. However, Shadow Ball is nice for the Special Defense drops, although you do not really need it. Finally, HP Ice is mainly for Dragons like Dragonite and Mence. Unfortunately, the set lacks priority, so it is not as good a late-game cleaner as SD Lucario, but this has the potential to be both very surprising and devastating.

EDIT: The main reason to use Steadfast over Justified is the fact that you obviously do not need the Attack boost on a Nasty Plot Set, while if you get flinched, you might as well get a Speed boost, as opposed to Inner Focus, which just prevents flinching.

[Asek]

Originally Posted by Fat Organization Member XIV

How do people feel about a Nasty Plot set?

Lucario@Life Orb
Modest/Timid
Steadfast
Nasty Plot
Aura Sphere
Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball
Hidden Power Ice

This set can be surprising if people do not completely understand what Lucario can do. Nasty Plot is for obvious reasons, Aura Sphere is a powerful STAB and never misses. The choice between Dark Pulse and Shadow Ball is yours. Dark Pulse does not get you perfect neutral coverage alongside Aura Sphere, but the flinch chance is nice. However, Shadow Ball is nice for the Special Defense drops, although you do not really need it. Finally, HP Ice is mainly for Dragons like Dragonite and Mence. Unfortunately, the set lacks priority, so it is not as good a late-game cleaner as SD Lucario, but this has the potential to be both very surprising and devastating.
.

The problem with that set is that with lucario's slow speed stat in this fast paced metagame. It is simply easy picking for any pokemon that outspeeds it, and its not like there isn't a team out there that won't have something that outspeeds it, more than likely there will be multiple pokemon that are beating you in speed terms. If you opt for vaccuum wave you are left with a poor coverage and relativley weak priority that cannot do the damage you need it to do in nearly all cases. Thats what the problem is with Nasty Plot Lucario, it is meant to lure in Swords Dance Lucario counters and beat them with +2 SpA, but when it comes to sweeping opposing teams it will very rarely if ever get its job done. It is pretty average at what its meant to do, and Swords Dance Lucario is almost always a better choice for your team. Stronger Priority and STAB move, along with the abilty to beat nearly all of its counter with the right coverage move, it is far and away the best set.

On the other hand, Agility Lucario was pretty handy in the genesect meta. As with it being so genesect heavy an Agilty Lucario could effectively still sweep while genesect was active, unlike its Sword Dance counter part. Being able to sweep while genesect was around was something that a lot of swepeers which they could claim, and agili lucario could effectively lure gene in for a DD nite or something like it to sweep later with genesect's absence. It trades raw power with its prio move for being able to throw around close combat a lot more often, but with genesect gone I expect it to decline once again. Has anybody used agili lucario well post genesect?

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat Organization Member XIV

How do people feel about a Nasty Plot set?

Lucario@Life Orb
Modest/Timid
Steadfast
EVs: 252 SpAtk, 252 Speed, 4 HP
Nasty Plot
Aura Sphere
Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball
Hidden Power Ice

This set can be surprising if people do not completely understand what Lucario can do. Nasty Plot is for obvious reasons, Aura Sphere is a powerful STAB and never misses. The choice between Dark Pulse and Shadow Ball is yours. Dark Pulse does not get you perfect neutral coverage alongside Aura Sphere, but the flinch chance is nice. However, Shadow Ball is nice for the Special Defense drops, although you do not really need it. Finally, HP Ice is mainly for Dragons like Dragonite and Mence. Unfortunately, the set lacks priority, so it is not as good a late-game cleaner as SD Lucario, but this has the potential to be both very surprising and devastating.

EDIT: The main reason to use Steadfast over Justified is the fact that you obviously do not need the Attack boost on a Nasty Plot Set, while if you get flinched, you might as well get a Speed boost, as opposed to Inner Focus, which just prevents flinching.

I love the special set. I used his double dance special set on PS! and it worked wonders for me. If you want, you could use Vacuum Wave to have some sort of priority. Drop HP Ice and don't slash Shadow Ball since ghost/fighting give perfect coverage. BTW, modest max speed Lucario outspeeds timid max speed Heatran by one point if I'm not mistaken. NP/Aurora Sphere/Shadow Ball/Vacuum Wave seems like a legitimate set to me.

[Tabuu]

YAYAY. My favorite Pokemon is getting some love

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::

The thing about Lucario is this. If Lucario outspeeds use and abuse Close Combat or the coverage move of your choice (Crunch+Ice Punch). Otherwise, due to this fast-paced metagame, you will find yourself doing a lot of +2 ExtremeSpeeding. Due to Lucario's high attack stat after a +2, factoring in his Life Orb and ES high base power, he will be doing significant damage to weakened Pokemon. For example, Landorus with some prior damage will fall to +2 ES. (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 242-285 (75.86 - 89.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Lucario is honestly meant to break walls such as Skarmory or Hippowdon with +2 Close Combats or to come in Late-Game and clean with +2 ES.

Now the thing on the Special Set. It would work. If the meta had more Vacuum Wave weak Pokemon. Like I mentioned earlier, Lucario relies heavily on Priority Moves because of his low base 90 speed. If Lucario were faster, NP would definitely see WAY more usage. But that isn't the case. However we still have Agility Set that could work....late game. For example, a +0 Adamant Life Orb Ice Punch will smash Landorus. The scenario would look like this: You scare something out with Lucario. Set up an Agility as they run to Lando. Ice Punch :)
Now this is obviously not always going to happen, but with massive Entry Hazard Support,and a weakened team, maybe Agility could work?
Here are some calcs against some high-usage Pokemon:

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 270-322 (76.27 - 90.96%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 205-244 (50.86 - 60.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 283-335 (70.04 - 82.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 260-307 (63.56 - 75.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 316-372 (82.29 - 96.87%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 250-296 (83.61 - 98.99%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 546-642 (168.51 - 198.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 316-372 (98.13 - 115.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So basically. After an Agility, Lucario can outspeed and KO all of these Pokemon with some support. Some like Tornadus-T,Scarfed Politoed, Terrakion are easily handled by Lucario. Others like Reuniclus and Jellicent need some prior damage and a lot of ER Hazards.

My final words: (kinda of a tl;dr kinda thing here):
Lucario has a much more dominant Physical Set than Special. Agility Lucario is very viable in this metagame as it has effectiveness and a surprise factor. Albeit, it struggles more with walls and needs much more support in terms of wallbreaking and Entry Hazards.

To Gamefreak: Just give the poor Wolf Speed Boost aight?

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::

[Siggu]

Originally Posted by Fat Tabuu

To Gamefreak: Just give the poor Wolf Speed Boost aight?

Then Lucario would be locked in Ubers along with Blaziken :P

[Tabuu]

@Siggu:

I KNOW!! IMAGINE THE POWER *insert fan girl scream*
With .25% Resistance to Stealth Rocks, Immunity to Toxic Spikes, a plethora of resistances, Great Power, diversity, and versatility, adding Speed Boost would make it go Uber. Or is it too frail?
LOL, it's never going to happen and I pray that it doesn't since I want to use it in OU.
But seriously: What do you guys think of Agility? I think it has great potential.

[gengarsnemisis]

Well the main thing that makes lucario competetive with terrakion is it's huge niche in extremespeed swords dance. I think terrakion with rock polish outclasses agility luke for the most part.

[ioliolk]

but agility Luke has enormous surprise factor. a lot of times, i find if you're facing a HO team, they'll try to switch in something that's faster then Luke and isn't hurt by Extremespeed so counter it. with Agility/Close Combat/Ice Punch/Crunch he has the ability to hit a lot of these Pokemon hard. the only question to me is whether this is worth using instead of swords dance Luke? Swords dance Luke can essentially do the same thing with Extremespeed and bullet punch, as well as KO bulky counters to it.

[Lee]

the big problem with SDLuke is that whatever he chooses to use in that last moveslot (Crunch/Ice Punch/Bullet Punch) you will inevitably get hard walled or, in the case of BP, revenged by key threats. For that reason, Gothitelle is heaven-sent; you can pick whichever move you fancy and tailor your Gothitelle to remove whatever threat that opens up to you. Want to use Crunch but worried about Gliscor? HP Ice Goth has your back. Bullet Punch leaving you vulnerable to bulky Psychics? Gothitelle can take care of stuff like Celebi and Slowbro. You could even go Specs + Grass Knot to knock out any Jellicent or Hippowdon that are cramping your Lucario's style. the offensive synergy is perfect...but so is Goth + any offensive Poke tbh, such is shadow tag!

[Tabuu]

@ioliolk
Well if you use Bullet Punch over Ice Punch or over Crunch and visa versas, you will find your self walled quite easilly. Agility Lucario maintains decent power and can break through these counters. Terrakion Gengar Jellicent Slowbro Reuniclus Tornadus-T and so forth. It somewhat helps to mitigate his 4MSS.

::::::::::::::::

[Princess Bri]

I made a team with this core before, and the thing that I disliked about Goth is that once you actually kill a poke is that you lose momentum when you kill it.

E.g. Lucario is in vs a Ferrothorn; you double switch to gothitelle and they go to Hippowdon. Once you kill the Hippowdon, your opponent can set up their own sweeper and then go to town.

It's annoying, especially for HO Teams where this core is found.

[ClubbingSealCub]

Originally Posted by Fat ioliolk

but agility Luke has enormous surprise factor. a lot of times, i find if you're facing a HO team, they'll try to switch in something that's faster then Luke and isn't hurt by Extremespeed so counter it. with Agility/Close Combat/Ice Punch/Crunch he has the ability to hit a lot of these Pokemon hard. the only question to me is whether this is worth using instead of swords dance Luke? Swords dance Luke can essentially do the same thing with Extremespeed and bullet punch, as well as KO bulky counters to it.

SD Luke can't get past Scarf Terrakion without Bullet Punch; and running BP over Crunch or Ice Punch means that you will be hard-walled by either Landorus-T and Gliscor or Slowbro and Jellicent.

A +2 Extremespeed is sightly weaker than a +0 Close Combat, and Agility Luke can afford running both Crunch and Ice Punch.

Obviously, Agility Luke is not as useful against balanced / stall teams, but it can clean up HO teams pretty well (bar Breelom, obviously).

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Fat Princess Bri

I made a team with this core before, and the thing that I disliked about Goth is that once you actually kill a poke is that you lose momentum when you kill it.

E.g. Lucario is in vs a Ferrothorn; you double switch to gothitelle and they go to Hippowdon. Once you kill the Hippowdon, your opponent can set up their own sweeper and then go to town.

It's annoying, especially for HO Teams where this core is found.

tbh it depends on what you need to kill - generally speaking Goth doesn't need to use a Choice item to kill stuff like Gliscor, Slowbro, defensive Celebi, physically defensive Jellicent, pivot Landorus-T, Hippowdon etc - Life Orb will more than suffice - something like Psyshock/Grass Knot/HP Ice/Signal Beam can put a dent in most things that try to set up while taking care of all of the above fairly reliably.

[Tabuu]

I agree with ClubbingSealCub. However could you explain why it's not useful against balanced teams?

::::::::::::::::::