The OU Viability Ranking thread

[BlackLight]

Why is Kingdra in B Rank, exactly?

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.

Kingdra is extremely hard to wall, as the only thing that resists its STABs is Ferrothorn (Empoleon isn't hugely relevant in this meta), and Kingdra can opt to run Hidden Power Fire to dent it.

Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Kingdra isn't exactly outclassed, seeing as it is the only thing that can fill its specific niche, barring Kabotops (or maybe Omastar?). It's useful against all different kinds of teams, even sun, as its can soak up Fire attacks easily, even if it is all that it will do. Rain teams will have a brutal time with Kingdra, as it can easily outspeed anything they can throw at it.

The only reason I would think Kingdra would be low on the rankings is because no one really uses it, and that its stats are a little low. Still, it is a Water type and a Dragon type, and it can use both the offensive and defensive virtues of those types effectively, from either/both sides of the attacking spectrum.

So yeah. Discuss.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat BlackLight

Why is Kingdra in B Rank, exactly?

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.

Kingdra is extremely hard to wall, as the only thing that resists its STABs is Ferrothorn (Empoleon isn't hugely relevant in this meta), and Kingdra can opt to run Hidden Power Fire to dent it.

Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Kingdra isn't exactly outclassed, seeing as it is the only thing that can fill its specific niche, barring Kabotops (or maybe Omastar?). It's useful against all different kinds of teams, even sun, as its can soak up Fire attacks easily, even if it is all that it will do. Rain teams will have a brutal time with Kingdra, as it can easily outspeed anything they can throw at it.

The only reason I would think Kingdra would be low on the rankings is because no one really uses it, and that its stats are a little low. Still, it is a Water type and a Dragon type, and it can use both the offensive and defensive virtues of those types effectively, from either/both sides of the attacking spectrum.

So yeah. Discuss.

There are many Dragon-types that perform somewhat better than Kingdra, such as Dragonite and Salamence, due to the fact that they are bulkier and faster, respectively, and aren't threatened by Ferrothorn. Also, while Kingdra may have only one weakness, to Dragon, Kingra is frail. You only need to pack a Scarfer that has a strong, neutral attack against it, and you are on a good position. Example goes to Scarf Landorus' Earthquake, wich has a chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage. Also, under rain, Ferrothorn can easily take HP Fire and use a combination of Leech Seed and Power Whip (and possibly Protect) to stall out Kingdra. Kingra is actually a good sweeper, but it only really has a niche that it's a good anti-Rain pokémon.

[Shurtugal]

kingdra is also situational and i would just pick a universal rain check in general as a better answer than kingdra who is a liability outside of opposing rain. just my opinion; i know it can be used wonderfully if sucessful on a team majorly weak to rain; but, i seriously would prefer jut using something that does more.

also, kingdra is outclassed by majority of OU dragons in general for the role of being a dragon like others mentioned. just my 2 cents

[Tabuu]

Haha, I feel pretty much everything has been provided as to why it's B-Rank. Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Skarmory, and the almost non-existent Empoleon can take on Kingdra and its' respective sets. It honestly is outclassed by other Dragons. Revenge Killer? Sure he's hell of a fast Pokemon if and only if rain is up. Scarfed Salamence or Garchomp or even Hydreigon or more reliable thanks to their higher base Speed+Scarf. Wall-Breaker? Dragonite, Salamence, Hydreigon, Latios, and Garchomp pretty much outclass it in terms of what they can actually break down and the power difference. Sweeper? Dragonite has Multiscale, Salamence has Moxie or Intimidate, Hydreigon has a diverse and solid attacking stats, Latios packs CM, and Garchomp can SD its way to Victory. Another point as to why its B-Rank (and already pretty much mentioned): It's movepool isn't...terrible and its stats are...horrendous either. But, it really is lackluster and falls short of the Titans in OU.
So tl;dr: Keep Kingdra down where it is

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[Takion]

Can a pokemon who has crippling weakness to stealth rock qualify for A rank? I was thinking about Volcarona but that 4x weakness to rock...

[Lord of Bays]

Tabuu, I think you're not giving Kingdra enough credit. Yes, he's stopped cold by a healthy Ferrothorn (Modest LO Hydro Pump does 36% minimum [in the rain, herpaderp] to 252/168, which is enough to finish it off when it's weakened if it tries to switch in), but it and specially defensive Empoleon are its only stops outside of a very good stall team. He is THE anti-rain Pokémon, which is honestly a stupendous offensive niche to hold.

I get that I'm reinforcing his place in B-tier, but that is not a bad tier by any stretch, and I just kinda feel like you guys are taking a dump on him when he doesn't really deserve it. And I realize this entire post is redundant and I don't know why I spent all this time typing it out and doing calcs.

TL;DR Kingdra is the ultimate niche Pokémon and if your rain team is not prepared for him you will be shat upon.

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat Takion

Can a pokemon who has crippling weakness to stealth rock qualify for A rank? I was thinking about Volcarona but that 4x weakness to rock...

I think he was voted B because of how desperately he needs Rapid Spin support (not just Rocks, but Spikes and Toxic Spikes as well) + unless you carry Hurricane you get crippled by Rain.

[Tabuu]

@Lord of Bays:
Kingdra is not garbage. I may have been a bit hard on Kingdra but that is the simple truth. Kingdra really struggles to hold certain positions in OU compared to the other Dragons. Kingdra does get the ability to counter Rain though.
And of course B-Tier is not a bad ranking. Lucario, one of my personal favorites is a B-Ranker.

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[gengarsnemisis]

Really Kingdra can do so much more than just counter rain teams guys...The LO rain dance set also makes him an amazing sun counter as well, neudering a sun team and than sweeping with draco meteors/pulses or ice beams. It also makes him not just dead weight against a balanced team as after a rain dance he cant be revenged by a scarfer and can blast off rain boosted stab water moves, which backed by a modest nature and lo can do about 40% to ferrothorn, which is pretty impressive. And remember, unlike other dragons kingdra has stab water moves. So to say he's completely outclassed by other dragons except against rain teams I really disagree with. As for its ranking I think B fits it perfectly well, as its semi-low offensive stats and fratility really hold him back from being a top threat.
tl;dr: Keep Kingdra in B, but he's more than just a rain counter

[Takion]

Is there a reason as to why wobuffet is not on here? Smogon has him in the OU tier

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/wobbuffet

[Scarfwynaut]

Its probably because wobbuffet is pretty much non-existant in the current metagame, although it is de-facto OU because of its BL status. It and Staraptor should be tiered in my opinion, besides they are somewhat use able.

A case could probably be made for wobb and staraptor to be both C tier, they both have niche's but they are almost invisible. In fact Staraptor is pretty much just outclassed by upper tier pokemon, I might even say it could be D tier.

[DarkBlazeR]

I actually think Staraptor is quite underrated. Whilst the fact it gets worn down so easily due to recoil and a Stealth Rock weakness means it won't be able to get out of C-tier, from my experience it can become a living hell for the opponent if they don't have a solid check, which are far and few between. Between Brave Bird, Double Edge and Close Combat, it's almost impossible for any offensive team to get a safe switch in, as most of its members are easily OHKOd by the appropriate move. I've been using Choice Scarf Staraptor on one of my HO teams recently, and it's a real showstopper. Obviously physical walls such as Skarmory and Hippowdon are issues, but you can U-turn out to something like Gothitelle to deal with them.

[Bent1ey]

Originally Posted by Fat Takion

Thats Fair on the TechBreloom

The mamo argument can go either way as I said a Air Balloon can help lucario in the meta. There are Jollycarios as well:

252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 420-494 (116.34 - 136.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I was wondering if Mamo OHKOs Luke with Superpower, because if that's the case the Air Balloon argument is mooth -unless they run Stone Edge instead of Superpower, but that's subpar imo-.

[Super Mario Bro]

I don't think Xatu should be ranked higher than Espeon. Sure, it can be splashed more easily on most teams, but Espy makes full Baton Pass chains a pretty powerful force. It can also pass Calm Mind in mini-chains.

So yea, Espeon should be Rank B. Nothing can duplicate its role of passing Calm Mind while blocking hazards, and it makes an entire play-style (as degenerate as it is) viable.

[erisia]

In regards to Togekiss, I think C-tier is a pretty good place for it to be.

"Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks."

It can attempt to fill the same para-flinching niche that Jirachi does with Body Slam, Air Slash, Roost, and a coverage move, but the latter takes the cake most of the time due to its resistances, lack of SR weakness, and the ability to set SR itself if desired. Nasty Plot Togekiss works really well in combination with Jirachi however, and it can break through most opponents if you can paralyse them in advance. This isn't too hard if you have something like Ferrothorn, Shuffler Dragonite or a Jirachi of your own in the wings. Unfortunately it's a little eclipsed by Tornadus-T if Drizzle is up, but Togekiss is somewhat better at staying in and sweeping through teams in the late game due to Roost, better standing bulk, and the excellent Nasty Plot.

If Togekiss got Serene Grace Hurricane, of course, then that would be another story... :p

[Shurtugal]

kingdra can sweep unprepare rain teams as much as riolu can sweep unprepared stall teams js. i don't think its ability to manhandle rain is worth its liability. especially since prepared rain teams can beat it or simply dent it and stuff. its great antimeta, but liability elsewhere. can't do much to sun, to hail, to weatherless, or even sand imo.

i actually want to say i <3 riolu, but i would never use it on a serious team. only if i was bored ;3

[Tabuu]

Originally Posted by Fat DarkBlazeR

I actually think Staraptor is quite underrated. Whilst the fact it gets worn down so easily due to recoil and a Stealth Rock weakness means it won't be able to get out of C-tier, from my experience it can become a living hell for the opponent if they don't have a solid check, which are far and few between. Between Brave Bird, Double Edge and Close Combat, it's almost impossible for any offensive team to get a safe switch in, as most of its members are easily OHKOd by the appropriate move. I've been using Choice Scarf Staraptor on one of my HO teams recently, and it's a real showstopper. Obviously physical walls such as Skarmory and Hippowdon are issues, but you can U-turn out to something like Gothitelle to deal with them.

I used to have a pretty unhealthy obsession with that bird. I mean just look at the bird. It has Wings of Power, Talons of Destruction, and Hair Style of Swag:

I too think it is pretty underrated with a Scarf. It can easily revenge things such as Breloom, Keldeo, Terrakion and Latios. On HO Teams it'd work real well thanks to Intimidate, U-Turn, Respectable Speed and High Attack. Staraptor is blessed with a beautiful movepool. Brave Bird and Close Combat work well together terrorizing the entire OU meta. Return is situational but is a solid choice. U-Turn is a given. C-Rank is where it should be though as it is outclassed by other Scarfers such as Jirachi, Landorus or Terrakion.

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[Scarfwynaut]

Staraptor looks like a pretty shitty check to Breloom:

+1 (intimidate) 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 255-302 (81.99 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 (intimidate) 244+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 237-280 (76.2 - 90.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

[Tabuu]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

Staraptor looks like a pretty shitty check to Breloom:

+1 (intimidate) 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 255-302 (81.99 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 (intimidate) 244+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 237-280 (76.2 - 90.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

.....*Facepalms in shame*......
The great predator of the air falls to a walking mushroom...

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[Shurtugal]

The thing with Staraptor is it pretty much needs a scarf to be somewhat viable.

It might not have a lot of switch ins, HOWEVER, Tornadus-T is such a threat that every team carries a flying resist and SR. This means Staraptor is more or less shitty atm. When Torn-T gets banned it might get better, but for right now it is not that great. I daresay it should go to D Tier.

[Wizarus]

Skarmory, Bronzong, Metagross, and Jirachi are the only things that can safely switch into Staraptor in that are viable in OU. This is a poke that has a chance to OHKO 4/0 Landorus-T through Intimidate after rocks. I think it's at least C-Tier worthy.

[Shurtugal]

Rotom-W switches into BB safely. and Jirachi is SUPER common for checking Torn-T. Especially if you play weatherless, which was my point. They might be FEW, but they are certainly used a lot (Wash and Rachi I mean). Which was why I said Raptor is losing out. Cause its counters are most used to wall / check / counter Torn-T, which is a huge threat atm otherwise.

[Wizarus]

Rotom-W will almost never want to switch into Staraptor. CB Reckless Double-edge will always OHKO, and its Choice Scarf Returns will always 2HKO. Even its Choice Scarf CCs come dangerously close to 2HKOing Specially Defensive Rotom-W, and U-turn just means good match-ups. It can't switch into anything but BB(Actually it can't even switch into that, CB Reckless BB will always 2HKO SPD Rotom-W after rocks)

Jirachi is common, that's why I listed it as one of it's counters. Even still, CB Staraptor 2HKOs specially defensive Jirachi, and CM Rain Jirachi with CC 53% of the time after rocks.

[Lord of Bays]

I've enjoyed OHKOing a great deal of Rotom-Ws with CB Double-Edge. Hell, Brave Bird 2HKOs any nonphysically-defensive Rotom-W (does a minimum of 51%). Reckless makes Staraptor insanely powerful; more powerful than Salamence and Dragonite. Seriously. I did the calcs, and Jolly Brave Bird is more powerful than Adamant Outrage from both of them.

[Shurtugal]

choice band? i was referring to the scarf set since thats the only one I ever see used.

if you predict correctly I guess Raptor Band is about as menacing as Band Rakion but with lower speeds, huge recoil damage, and a weakness 4 rocks. Band Rak does most of the same things and threats more of the meta (seriously, if you predict X to come in you can SE half of them). The thing with that bird is that its sr weak and frail (and lets not forget the damned recoil damage = lolpriority) while Terrakion is neither of these things. (since terrak can switch from BP and not worry about SR damage....)

The only difference is that Star can spam a flying STAB. Wouldn't Specs Tornadus-T work just a bit better in this area? Sure its not hitting on the physical side but in all fairness if you predict things like Rotom-W to switch into Specs Nadus you can 2HKO with Focus Blast after Rocks; Just like Double Edge.

My beef with DE is that its recoil w/ reckless + SR + frailness = can't really switch in much. Not being able to switch into attacks sucks whereas Tornadus-T or Terrak retain bulk to do so and still have that power Raptor has.

Jirachi is also super common; not to mention speed tie with JOLLY band versions (which im unsure supports the band calcs you gave earlier, and it outspeeds adamant versions). Rachi also has a scarf set and can wreck band, it gets TWave, which screws you, and it gets a strong STAB.

Do I need any more reason to hate this bird?