FRLG In-game Tiers

[TungstenMudkip]

Edit: Err, I was supposed to get mod permission? Sorry.


(Really old subject)
http://www.smogon.com/ingame/misc/adv_frlg_ingametiers

I just ran through a game of Leaf Green. I have to say, just as I thought, Mr. Mime was a godsend.

No, listen!

For someone without access to trading with Pokemon FireRed or LeafGreen, there is no trading before the Elite 4. Which automatically reduces its only true competition in pure-Psychics to Kadabra.

Here's where Kadabra has issues, and some of these apply to Alakazam as well.
1.) Kadabra has a REALLY shallow movepool. No elemental punches, Hidden Power is unreliable. It gets Psychic, Recover, and Trick. YES, recover is nice, but it is not everything. AND Calm Mind isn't even available without a TM on Kadabra.
Mr. Mime, however, gets the re-buyable Thunderbolt, which is nice for beating up Gyarados and other waters in the Elite 4 if you'd like. Mr. Mime also gets (yes, laugh at this one) Magical Leaf, in time to hit Rock Tunnel. If you start with Charmander, and don't have a grass or water type (you probably won't), this will help against the plethora of rock / ground types.
2.) Mr. Mime has better staying power with better Defense and Special Defense. Kadabra is faster and stronger, but Mr. Mime is usually able to OHKO anything Kadabra can.
3.) Abra is gotten after Nugget Bridge, which, if you're like me, is after Cerulean gym. Mr. Mime, on the other hand, is only about 10-20 minutes later, on the other side of two tunnels, comes with an actual move to fight with, AND levels up 50% faster for being in a trade.
4.) Trick is gotten at a much higher level with Kadabra, which is not terrible per se, but a few levels difference is a question of "do I get that thick club sonner or later?" or "do I really have to waste my money catching Abra for TwistedSpoons".

My argument is that Mr. Mime should definitely go above Kadabra and Alakazam pre-Elite 4. I also argue that it should go above Jynx. With Jynx, you not only get it MUCH later (as in, after Lavender Town and the Ghosts, and after Celadon with its plethora of poison-types that you still don't have a real advantage over), you also have to waste the Psychic TM (non-renewable - Jynx does not even get a single Psychic STAB move without a TM), and have to STILL BUY the Ice Beam TM (rather than a natural level-up). And a sleep move, while nice, is not always necessary in-battle.

Starmie has a similar problem to Jynx, in not getting Psychic, but it makes up for it in recovery moves and other options.

Post-Elite 4, you have more freedom - Kadabra can get the elemental punches via breeding, while Mr. Mime still only gets Thunderbolt (I was surprised too, when I saw he couldn't get Ice Punch via breeding, and we'll ignore traded tutors).

For the reasons summarized above, I believe Mr.Mime should be moved to Top Tier, and reconsider Abra's placement, possibly even that of Jynx for in-game.



Mr. Mime
Top Tier
Availability: Early
Stats: Above Average
Movepool: Above Average where it counts.
Major battle match-ups: Rock Tunnel is good with Confusion and Magical Leaf; pokemon Tower is excellent against ghost-types. Sweeps Erika, Koga handily. Survives Sabrina and Blaine, and can hit back with neutral attacks. Sweeps Giovanni fairly quickly, as well as the Team Rocket Saga. Thunderbolt hits hard against Lorelei's team, and some of Lance's, Psychic hits Bruno, Agatha fairly hard. Can help with rival's team, though nothing spectacular.
Other Comments: Gotten fairly early, before the SS Anne, but does require a detour. Gets Psychic through level-up, and can add diversity with Thunderbolt and Magical Leaf. Gets Trick for utility and stealing items like Thick-Club and mushrooms. Nominally weaker than Kadabra; no sleep move, no secondary type, but it packs a punch where it counts. Levels up quicker from trade which is a double-edge sword if it doesn't obey.



Lastly:
Dratini - Bottom Tier is really low. You can get him in Celadon, which is earlier than most pokemon. He's expensive, yes, but level him up a bit, and his stats are GREAT, and he gets LOADS of TMs. As a Dratini / Dragonair, he Erika, Blaine, and with Surf, it can take down Giovanni. I'd say at least Low-tier, maybe Mid. And if Tauros is low-tier...come on, you know this thing is better than that. Okay, no STAB normal moves, but you know Draggy's good for it!



Dratini
Mid Tier
Availability: Mid-game
Stats: Above Average
Movepool: Above Average
Other Comments: Can be bought fairly early. If you have enough money, and get the elemental TMs immediately, he'll shine. Downside is that he evolves fairly late, but Dragon has some nice resistances by itself. Can compensate for whatever your team is lacking, VERY versatile
Major battle match-ups: (If gotten early enough): Erika is swept with flamethrower or ice beam, if you purchased it. Koga will not enjoy special moves much. Sabrina is an unremarkable matchup. Decimates your rival with elemental moves from the start. Resists Blaine's fire moves, and can sweep with Surf. Giovanni is beaten handily with Surf. Against Lorelei, you've gotta be faster or your dead. If you've evolved it to Dragonite, you'll resist Bruno's moves except Rock Tomb, which can stack up. Lance's Gyarados will go down quickly, but Aerodactyl (Ancient Power) and Dragonair / Dragonite (Outrage) are all super-effective. Ice beam, you're fast enough, will hurt them worse than they hurt you.



Credits go to Bulbagarden for images, thank you. And Smogon, et al. for the original tier list, and hosting the forum.

[Organization Member XIV]

DOUBLE EDIT: I now just realized that you are trying to bump the link you posted. Instead, you should really try to create a new thread approved by at least one moderator rather than trying to bring attention to the link you posted. Like you said, old subject, so a new thread approved by a mod would be more appropriate. You could just edit the OP to be the restart of a new in-game tier list, copy and paste into a PM to one of the moderators of Orange Islands, and wait for them to give you the OK to continue.

[Lucchini]

Recovery moves shouldn't be considered as they waste a precious moveslot when you have enough money to use as many Hyper Potion as you may need.

Why is Thunderbolt "reusable" when we're speaking about Mr. Mime, but then you put Jynx to doubt for getting Ice Beam, let alone the free Psychic TM (if Jynx is in play, then it will most certainly take Psychic, and it lives fine with Ice Punch).

You also have to stop progressing the storyline to get Mr. Mime. This costs time. You needn't digress if you catch an Abra at all, so training Kadabra is more efficient.

Finally, Mr. Mime's strongest stat is special defence, in a game where it doesn't have a common special weakness (besides like Bite on randomscrubs). Kadabra is a far better (stronger and faster) glass cannon, especially if a trade evolution is possible.

There may not be good water-types for Rock Tunnel, but there is the Water Pulse TM that a mixed normal-type could take with little hesitation.

Also, why is Lapras suddenly assumed to be in play? This thing is horribly underlevelled if you decide to use it. And why are those other water-types you mention entitled to Ice Beam when Jynx isn't? They don't learn it naturally most of the time.

[TungstenMudkip]

Sorry, I should have made my terms more clear...

"Reusable" refers to TMs you can buy more than once - those at the game corner, through the Celadon Mega mart, or (in the case of Emerald) Pickup.

Jynx gets the Ice Beam through a TM, but not through level-up. So the argument of "you need to buy that Thunderbolt" could not be used if you're going to give Jynx a pass.

And aside from the "efficient game", it is sometimes preferable to save the one-off TMs for battle use (yes, we still do link battles in my area once in a while). That is why I don't just spend the TMs early in the game to move through much faster - I save them, and restrict the use.

[Organization Member XIV]

General format should be:

Pokemon Name (Image above name is preferable)
Tier
Availability (I.E. where can you find it in which version and how early or late?)
Stats
Movepool
Major Battle Matchups (Gym Leaders, E4, Champion, Rival Battles)
General Information

With that aside, my own nomination


Snorlax
Top Tier

Avaliability: Routes 12 and 16 through use of the Pokéflute. Around the middle of the game, though at the Level of 30, so around or slightly higher than the levels of your team members.

Stats: Excellent HP, Good Special Defense and Physical Attack, Bad Special Attack and Physical Defense and horrid Speed. Mono-Normal typing isn't too bad as there are rarely any Fighting types besides wild ones.

Movepool: All it pretty much needs are Body Slam, which is learned at Level 33, Surf, an HM, Shadow Ball, which is bought from the Game Corner, and Brick Break, which can be bought from the Celadon Department Store.

Major Matchups: The earliest Gym Battles you can get it for are Sabrina and Koga.

Erika: Headbutt/Body Slam Spam=Win.

Sabrina: Being all Psychic types have Special STAB, Snorlax's base 160 HP and 110 Special Defense mean their hits do nothing. Either Body Slam or Shadow Ball can clean house here.

Koga: The Koffings can be taken care of with Body Slam, although the Muk and Weezing are better left to a Psychic type such as Alakazam or Jynx.

Blaine: Pretty much a complete thrashing, especially if you have Earthquake. Although Surf and Body Slam get the job done.

Giovanni: Due to Surf and most of his Pokemon's low Special Defenses, Snorlax actually does surprisingly well.

Lorelei: She can't touch you with any of her STAB moves, so feel free to sweep.

Bruno: Onixes are no problem, leave Hitmons and Machamp to a Psychic type.

Agatha: Shadow Ball destroys the Gengars and Haunter, while Body Slam takes care of the Golbat. Arbok is annoying though.

Lance: The Gyarados and Dragonairs really have nothing to threaten you with other than Hyper Beam, but Aerodactyl can be scary if you've already been weakened. Better to leave this to something else.

Blue (Gary): In all cases, takes care of Alakazam easily. Rhydon is also easily taken care of by Surf. All the starters are jokes, as the only thing that is really decent is Charizard's Slash if you picked Bulbasaur. If you DIDN'T pick Bulbasaur, Snorlax takes care of the Exeggutor. Pidgeot is also a joke in general, and Snorlax beats it.

General Stuff: Early STAB 3 levels after you catch it in Body Slam, all its TMs barring Earthquake are either re-purchasable or HMs, and godly HP combined with good Attack and Special Defense easily allow it to muscle through most of the game.

[TM13IceBeam]

Dratini, seriously? If it came with Dragon Rage I can probably see it having a nice time scoring easy 2HKOs on things early on, but it's questionable if you're going to blow 2800 coins on a Dratini, then another 4k for a Flamethrower TM to score a sweep on Erika when you can just use the time needed to grind the money to grind Dratini to L22, or even better just skip Dratini entirely. Dratini is extremely versatile, yes, and Mid tier would have been perfect if you had infinite amount of resources to pour into Dratini.

Any water-type worth its salt is capable of beating Blaine and Giovanni, and Dragonair isn't going to be as efficient because it doesn't get STAB on surf. Dragonite is an average jack-of-all-trades that basically is just... there. No, please. This guy belongs in bottom because he takes way too many resources to be efficient.

[Organization Member XIV]

Just finished a run. Did Snorlax already in a previous post, so I'll just rank the rest of the team.


Jolteon
Mid Tier

Availability: Only one Eevee in the game, received in Celadon Condominiums (the apartment buildings) at Level 25. Early/mid-game, before the fourth badge.

Stats: Base 130 Speed and 110 SpAtk are nothing to laugh at, especially with STAB Thunderbolt/Thunder. SpDef is decent at 95, while Base 65 HP and Atk are pretty horrible.

Movepool: Pretty horrible outside of ThunderBolt, Shock Wave, and Thunderbolt. The only Special coverage move it gets is Hidden Power, while the only decent other options it gets are Double Kick, Pin Missile, and Shadow Ball. Both Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball are GC TMs, so getting the coins kind of sucks.

Major Matchups: Earliest Gym you can get Eevee/Jolteon for is Erika.

Erika: Don't use Jolteon here, as everything resists Shock Wave.

Sabrina: Pin Missile/Shadow Ball can hurt, but still gets maimed if it doesn't OHKO stuff, particularly Venomoth if you don't have TBolt.

Koga: The Koffings and Weezing both have low SpDef, so Thunderbolt hurts a lot. The Muk has better SpDef, though, so it might actually kill you.

Blaine: Thunderbolt is still powerful, but this is really when Jolteon starts to decline. Better off leaving this to something like a Rhydon or Blastoise.

Giovanni: PLEASE do NOT use Jolteon in this gym except on the Fighting types the Gym Trainers have.

Lorelei: Cloyster is easily OHKOd by a Thunderbolt, Thunder should OHKO Lapras and everything else except for Jynx. Leave that to a Fire Type.

Bruno. Do NOT use Jolteon here. Everything destroys you.

Agatha: Golbat is easily OHKOd by Thunderbolt, while Haunter and Arbok should be an easy time if they decide to spam status moves.

Lance: Gyarados has no shot, and Aerodactyl might get killed if Jolteon manages to live an Ancientpower.

Blue: Pidgeot is Thunder bait, while Gyarados if you didn't pick Squirtle/Blastoise if you picked Charmander are in the same boat. Rhydon destroys you, while Alakazam might live a Thunder and kill you with Psychic.

General Stuff: Good when you first get it, but falls of later on due to poor coverage. Still helps in the E4 and Champion, but definitely better Pokemon out there.


Venusaur
Mid Tier

Availability: A starter, so Bulbasaur is the first Pokemon you get.

Stats: Pretty balanced stats all around, so has decent bulk and can go mixed. Other than that, nothing spectacular.

Movepool: Sleep Powder and Leech Seed are a good combination. Gets Giga Drain as a TM from Erika's gym, as well as Earthquake from Giovanni and Razor Leaf through level-up. Unfortunately, the Body Slam TM does not exist like in Gen 1, so you'll probably stuck with Mono-Grass+Cut for most of the game unless you use the 1 EQ TM.

Major Matchups:

Brock: Vine Whip destroys him.

Misty: You should have Razor Leaf by this time, so you'll have no problem.

Lt. Surge: You resist Electric STAB, although Diglett/Dugtrio is far superior for this match.

Erika: They resist Razor Leaf, and Cut is shit, so no.

Sabrina: lolNO. SERIOUSLY NO.

Koga: Cut is shit, so no.

Blaine. See Sabrina.

Giovanni: Takes care of the Rhyhorns and Dugtrio. A Water or Ice Type is a better choice for the Nidos though.

Lorelei: Cloyster is probably the only one you wanna go up against due to its low SpDef.

Bruno: Kills the Onixes, although stay away from the Hitmons and Machamp.

Agatha: NO

Lance: NO

Blue: Rhydon is destroyed by Giga Drain/Razor Leaf. Other than that, probably no kills for Venusaur.

General Stuff: No auto-critting Razor Leaf or Body Slam TM like in Gen 1 hurts it a lot, as Team Rocket loves to use Poison Types.


Gyarados
High Tier

Availability: Magikarp can be bought from the bald guy in the Pokemon Center near Mt. Moon for 500 dollars. So early.

Stats: Good Atk, although no good moves to abuse outside of EQ. Has good Special Attack to utilize STAB water moves as well as Blizzard.

Movepool: As a Magikarp, Splash, Flail, and Tackle. Gets Bite as soon as you evolve it at Level 20 and Dragon Rage five levels later. Can also utilize the Water Pulse TM that Misty gives you. Eventually upgrades to Surf, Hydro Pump, and Blizzard. Can also utilize the EQ TM.

Major Matchups:

Lt. Surge: NO

Erika: You don't have the Blizzard TM yet, and you really shouldn't waste your time getting the coins for the Ice Beam TM.

Sabrina: You could get a kill on the Venomoth, although leave everything else to something such as Snorlax with Shadow Ball.

Koga: Surf might net you a kill against the Koffings, although you should use a Psychic type really.

Blaine: Surf Spam=Win

Giovanni: See Blaine.

Lorelei: Really nothing here.

Bruno: Onixes are a joke, leave everything else.

Agatha: Haunter and Golbat are easy prey for Hydro Pump.

Lance: Aerodactyl is easy prey for Surf, Dragonairs and DNite are hurt by Blizzard.

Blue: Rhydon is destroyed by Surf, Charizard hurt by Hydro Pump if you picked Bulbasaur.

General Stuff: Training Magikarp is a bitch, although you can always dump it in the day-care. Once you get a Gyarados, however, stuff becomes a LOT better.


Nidoking
High Tier

Availability: Route 3 is where you can get a Nidoran-M, so before Misty.

Stats: Average stats at best, but powerful moves and wide TM compatibility to compensate.

Movepool: As a Nidoran-M, best you can do is Double Kick, but upgrades to Horn Attack. Goes through a rough period if you decide not to evolve Nidorino straight away. However, when you evolve to Nidoking it has STAB Earthquake, as well as stuff like Fire Blast and Thunder TMs, as well as Megahorn at Level 43.

Major Matchups:

Misty: No.

Lt. Surge: If you've evolved to Nidoking by this time, you have a decent shot at winning with some Horn Attacks.

Erika: Victreebel and Vileplume get hit somewhat by Peck, while Tangela could in theory be worn down by Poison Stings.

Sabrina: Might kill the Venomoth, but nothing else.

Koga: Nidoking doesn't have EQ yet, so no.

Blaine: Still no EQ, but may kill the Growlithe and Ponyta.

Giovanni: No.

Lorelei: NO.

Bruno: Can kill the Onixes, though the Hitmons and Machamp are better left to something else.

Agatha: Kills the Golbat with Thunder, as well as the Arbok with EQ.

Lance: If you gave it Ice Beam, it could do decently well, and destroys the Gyarados with Thunder.

Blue: Kills Exeggutor with Megahorn. Gyarados destroyed by Thunder. Nothing else really.

General Comments: Starts to get good once you get a lot of TMs.


Primeape
Mid Tier

Availability: Route 3 is the earliest you can get Mankey.

Stats: Good Speed and Attack, pretty bad everything else.

Movepool: All you really need is Brick Break/Dig/Rock Tomb or Slide/Cross Chop.

Major Matchups:

Misty: No real use here.

Lt. Surge: If you have given Mankey Dig it can do some work here.

Erika: Brick Break hurts Tangela, although Victreebel and Vileplume are better left to a Fire-Type.

Sabrina: NO!

Koga: Sucks here.

Blaine: Rock Slide hurts everything, but burn chance is a little risky against Arcanine and Rapidash.

Giovanni: Takes care of the Rhyhorns and Duggy, but Nidos better left to a Psychic type.

Lorelei: Destroys everything except Slowbro and Jynx with Cross Chop. Jynx hurt hard by Rock Slide.

Bruno: Destroys the Onixes.

Agatha: Can hurt the Golbat with Rock Slide and the Arbok with Dig.

Lance: No.

Blue: Can hurt the Rhydon with Cross Chop, but that's really it.

[R_N]

For Venesaur, why did you never switch out Cut for Strength

e: From experience, it's a nice filler move for Gyarados too

[Organization Member XIV]

Originally Posted by Fat R_N

For Venesaur, why did you never switch out Cut for Strength

e: From experience, it's a nice filler move for Gyarados too

Because I'm too stupid to remember that apparently.

[Hemp Man]

I did a Gyarados write up in the previous thread.

Name: Gyarados - High Tier
Availability: At the Pokemon Center before Mt. Moon, so Early Game. Mid-game you get the Super Rod, which lets you capture Gyarados straight away.
Stats: As a Magikarp, his only decent stat is his Speed. Gyarados on the other hand has awesome stats. Great Attack, Good Speed, and decent bulk which can be backed through Intimidate. Its Special Attack leaves something to be desired, but its STAB Water attacks are still strong.
Typing: Water/Flying. This give Gyarados a total of 6 resistances (Fire, Steel, Bug, Fighting, Water and Ground), but also a weakness to Rock and a big weakness to Electricity. Most Rock types won't enjoy taking a STAB Water Move, but its recommended Gyarados has a partner that can take out Electric types.
Movepool: Gyarados learns Dragon Rage, Dragon Dance, Hydro Pump through level-up. Notable TM's it learns are Water Pulse, Taunt, Earthquake, Return, and Surf. It also learns Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower, but his mediocre Special Attack means you are better off giving those TM's to other Pokemon. Also, Gyarados can learn Thunder Wave via move tutor.
Major Battles:
Misty - Chances are you wont have Gyarados unless you do some extra grinding, but Gyarados can beat Misty as long as she doesn't get Water Pulse confusion hax.
LT Surge - Electric moves are common in this gym and they leave a big dent into Gyarados.
Erika - Gyarados is one of the few Water types in this game that is actually neutral to Grass, but he does not enjoy taking a status move.
Koga - Koffing/Weezing don't enjoy taking Surfs, where as Muk can be taken down by strong Physical Moves.
Fighting Dojo - Gyarados resists Fighting and has Intimidate, so this is a good gym to train him.
Sabrina - Gyarados has naturally high Special Defense and can take Sabrina's Special Moves, and Gyarados High Attack stats preys on her Physically Frail Pokemon.
Blaine - Gyarados resists Fire, and even with 60 Base Special Attack a STAB Super Effective Surf still does a lot to his team.
Giovanni - Same as the Blaine entry, except replace the word Fire with Ground.
Lorelei - Gyarados can set up DD on Dewgong, but keep note her Slowbro and Cloyster have good Physical Bulk.
Bruno - You can try to set up DD on his Pokemon, but keep in mind his Rock Tombs will cancel out the Speed Boost. On a flip side, his Rock Tombs have a high chance to miss. Surf takes care of Onix where a boosted strong Physical move can take his Fighting types on.
Agatha - Her Ghosts resist your entire Physical movepool meaning you have to rely on Surf to fight them, while her Pokemon can wear you down fast.
Lance - His Gyarados has Intimidate, which means you'll need to get more DD's in than usual. On the other hand his Gyarados doesn't really have anything to harm you except for Hyper Beam, which you'll Intimidate anyway. So you can set up on his Gyarados. His Aerodactyl actually resists both Normal moves and Earthquake, but Aerodactyl's defenses are not that great, so with DD boosts you can take it out.
Gary - Not really a good idea to set up when his Pidgeot has FeatherDance, Whirlwind, and Sand Attack. But Gyarados can handle Rhydon, Alakazam, and his Fire Pokemon.
Additional Comments: Gyarados is also a different experience to using most Water Pokemon, as it relies more on Physical attacking rather than relying on STAB + Ice Beam. Its recommended to wait til Super Rod to catch Gyarados, so you don't have to deal with the burden of raising a Magikarp. In addition, Gyarados doesn't really start to shine until the 5th gym anyway, so waiting a while to get him is better.

[Organization Member XIV]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

I did a Gyarados write up in the previous thread.

Name: Gyarados - High Tier
Availability: At the Pokemon Center before Mt. Moon, so Early Game. Mid-game you get the Super Rod, which lets you capture Gyarados straight away.
Stats: As a Magikarp, his only decent stat is his Speed. Gyarados on the other hand has awesome stats. Great Attack, Good Speed, and decent bulk which can be backed through Intimidate. Its Special Attack leaves something to be desired, but its STAB Water attacks are still strong.
Typing: Water/Flying. This give Gyarados a total of 6 resistances (Fire, Steel, Bug, Fighting, Water and Ground), but also a weakness to Rock and a big weakness to Electricity. Most Rock types won't enjoy taking a STAB Water Move, but its recommended Gyarados has a partner that can take out Electric types.
Movepool: Gyarados learns Dragon Rage, Dragon Dance, Hydro Pump through level-up. Notable TM's it learns are Water Pulse, Taunt, Earthquake, Return, and Surf. It also learns Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower, but his mediocre Special Attack means you are better off giving those TM's to other Pokemon. Also, Gyarados can learn Thunder Wave via move tutor.
Major Battles:
Misty - Chances are you wont have Gyarados unless you do some extra grinding, but Gyarados can beat Misty as long as she doesn't get Water Pulse confusion hax.
LT Surge - Electric moves are common in this gym and they leave a big dent into Gyarados.
Erika - Gyarados is one of the few Water types in this game that is actually neutral to Grass, but he does not enjoy taking a status move.
Koga - Koffing/Weezing don't enjoy taking Surfs, where as Muk can be taken down by strong Physical Moves.
Fighting Dojo - Gyarados resists Fighting and has Intimidate, so this is a good gym to train him.
Sabrina - Gyarados has naturally high Special Defense and can take Sabrina's Special Moves, and Gyarados High Attack stats preys on her Physically Frail Pokemon.
Blaine - Gyarados resists Fire, and even with 60 Base Special Attack a STAB Super Effective Surf still does a lot to his team.
Giovanni - Same as the Blaine entry, except replace the word Fire with Ground.
Lorelei - Gyarados can set up DD on Dewgong, but keep note her Slowbro and Cloyster have good Physical Bulk.
Bruno - You can try to set up DD on his Pokemon, but keep in mind his Rock Tombs will cancel out the Speed Boost. On a flip side, his Rock Tombs have a high chance to miss. Surf takes care of Onix where a boosted strong Physical move can take his Fighting types on.
Agatha - Her Ghosts resist your entire Physical movepool meaning you have to rely on Surf to fight them, while her Pokemon can wear you down fast.
Lance - His Gyarados has Intimidate, which means you'll need to get more DD's in than usual. On the other hand his Gyarados doesn't really have anything to harm you except for Hyper Beam, which you'll Intimidate anyway. So you can set up on his Gyarados. His Aerodactyl actually resists both Normal moves and Earthquake, but Aerodactyl's defenses are not that great, so with DD boosts you can take it out.
Gary - Not really a good idea to set up when his Pidgeot has FeatherDance, Whirlwind, and Sand Attack. But Gyarados can handle Rhydon, Alakazam, and his Fire Pokemon.
Additional Comments: Gyarados is also a different experience to using most Water Pokemon, as it relies more on Physical attacking rather than relying on STAB + Ice Beam. Its recommended to wait til Super Rod to catch Gyarados, so you don't have to deal with the burden of raising a Magikarp. In addition, Gyarados doesn't really start to shine until the 5th gym anyway, so waiting a while to get him is better.

IMO DD is wasted as the only good Physical moves are Strength and EQ, the latter of which I would rather use on Nidoking or Rhydon.

[Jimera0]

Alright just coming in here with a nitpick, but it is totally possible (and not even inefficient) to get Snorlax before Erika. Just complete the pokeflute quest before challenging her (Erika in fact does not need to be fought at all prior to Victory Road, the first time Strength is required to progress. Indeed during my Leaf Green Scramble many months ago I caught and used Snorlax in Erika's gym, where he had little trouble against the mainly special attackers there.

Actually, here's a quote from the update where I got Bob in that scramble and used him in Erika's gym (not against her himself, I DID have a Charmeleon):

WOW. Bob is practically BROKEN at this point in the game. Nothing can scratch him and he can obliterate anything in a single hit with Hyper Beam, and most things are OHKO’d just with Headbutt. If I get statused I just heal it off with Rest. Seriously, it’s just plain unfair. It’s like using Arceus in RU. I only had to go to the Pokemon center because I was running out of PP (20 attacking PP total, and there are more than 20 Pokemon in the gym)

Note that Rest is actually a cost effective healing tool in-game thanks to the Pokeflute.

Also note that Bob (Gen1OU was his name in-game, I just thought it was dumb so I called him Bob in my updates >:D) ended up being my MVP for that challange, above my Charizard. So yeah, agreeing with Top for Snorlax.

[Yarnus of Bethany]

Gyrados is actually quite good with Dragon Dance and Return. It can set up and sweep on Bruno's fighting types and on the rival. Definately a major powerhouse.

[TungstenMudkip]

Originally Posted by Fat Organization Member XIV

Just finished a run. Did Snorlax already in a previous post, so I'll just rank the rest of the team.


Jolteon
Mid Tier

Availability: Only one Eevee in the game, received in Celadon Condominiums (the apartment buildings) at Level 25. Early/mid-game, before the fourth badge.

Stats: Base 130 Speed and 110 SpAtk are nothing to laugh at, especially with STAB Thunderbolt/Thunder. SpDef is decent at 95, while Base 65 HP and Atk are pretty horrible.

Movepool: Pretty horrible outside of ThunderBolt, Shock Wave, and Thunderbolt. The only Special coverage move it gets is Hidden Power, while the only decent other options it gets are Double Kick, Pin Missile, and Shadow Ball. Both Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball are GC TMs, so getting the coins kind of sucks.

And even with all of this, you still advocate for maintaining Mid-Tier placement? No meaningful resistance, no immunity. A fast paralyzer, and maybe Thunderbolt - that's it.

Venusaur
Mid Tier

Availability: A starter, so Bulbasaur is the first Pokemon you get.

Stats: Pretty balanced stats all around, so has decent bulk and can go mixed. Other than that, nothing spectacular.

Movepool: Sleep Powder and Leech Seed are a good combination. Gets Giga Drain as a TM from Erika's gym, as well as Earthquake from Giovanni and Razor Leaf through level-up. Unfortunately, the Body Slam TM does not exist like in Gen 1, so you'll probably stuck with Mono-Grass+Cut for most of the game unless you use the 1 EQ TM.

Major Matchups:

Brock: Vine Whip destroys him.

Misty: You should have Razor Leaf by this time, so you'll have no problem.

Lt. Surge: You resist Electric STAB, although Diglett/Dugtrio is far superior for this match.
Koga: Cut is shit, so no.
Giovanni: Takes care of the Rhyhorns and Dugtrio. A Water or Ice Type is a better choice for the Nidos though.

Lorelei: Cloyster is probably the only one you wanna go up against due to its low SpDef.

Bruno: Kills the Onixes, although stay away from the Hitmons and Machamp.

Agatha: NO

Lance: NO

Blue: Rhydon is destroyed by Giga Drain/Razor Leaf. Other than that, probably no kills for Venusaur.

General Stuff: No auto-critting Razor Leaf or Body Slam TM like in Gen 1 hurts it a lot, as Team Rocket loves to use Poison Types.

The particular game I ran through was Venusaur / Lapras / Marowak / Chansey / Meowth / Mr. Mime., not one of them was over Level 55 (and that was Chansey). If I learned anything, it is the following:
Utility is nice
Venusaur can take hits

Venusaur with Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Razor Leaf, and Sweet Scent can do alot of damage, and makes for good utility when capturing. The difference between sleep and paralysis, whether it is a major battle, or capturing one, is insane. Venusaur should remain high tier, as it is gotten early, useful against Brock,Misty,your Rival,and the Rockets with a Poison Status immunity, as well as fighting resist against the Dojo.

Venusaur also gets Leech Seed, which while Haxxy (misses quite a bit for me), will allow for staying power in other Pokemon, and a way to take down bulky pokemon, if you have no other means of hitting them. And no other grass deserves top tier because either they don't get a reliable grass move (Oddish), or they are weaker in staying power (Bellsprout).

Gyarados
High Tier

Availability: Magikarp can be bought from the bald guy in the Pokemon Center near Mt. Moon for 500 dollars. So early.

Stats: Good Atk, although no good moves to abuse outside of EQ. Has good Special Attack to utilize STAB water moves as well as Blizzard.

Movepool: As a Magikarp, Splash, Flail, and Tackle. Gets Bite as soon as you evolve it at Level 20 and Dragon Rage five levels later. Can also utilize the Water Pulse TM that Misty gives you. Eventually upgrades to Surf, Hydro Pump, and Blizzard. Can also utilize the EQ TM.

General Stuff: Training Magikarp is a bitch, although you can always dump it in the day-care. Once you get a Gyarados, however, stuff becomes a LOT better.

Mid-tier maybe, but not high. Magikarp is crap, and you don't get a Magikarp more than level 10 before Snorlax. Talk about hard to train - Kadabra covers its own from level 16, Magikarp is stuck until level 20. And then it learns a bunch of moves that it is locked into, or can't use. You don't get EQ until Viridian City.


Nidoran M is already high tier, as is Mankey.

[Hemp Man]

You dont have to raise Magikarp, just capture a Gyarados mid-game with the Super Rod. Sure, it misses out against Surge and Erika, but Gyarados sucks against those guys anyway.

[Organization Member XIV]

I think I'm gonna start a new run today. The team will be Blastoise/Vileplume/Rhydon/Raichu/Hypno/Dugtrio. That's what I'm gonna use.
i haven't really used Vileplume before, so it'll be interesting. Do NOT tell me whether or not these Pokemon suck. If they do, lemme figure it out for myself.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

You dont have to raise Magikarp, just capture a Gyarados mid-game with the Super Rod. Sure, it misses out against Surge and Erika, but Gyarados sucks against those guys anyway.

Gyarados is very useful for Misty and facerolls Starmie with Bite.

Then again, Magikarp for 15 levels... uh...

Yeah, i'd still go for Super Rod Gyarados. Useful immediately even if all you do is Intimidate fodder, plus Thrash is sweet. Still a toss-up though, and there're a bunch of other things that learn Bite (Wartortle, Ekans, Meowth)

[Organization Member XIV]

I just looked up Vileplume's movepool. Dear God.

[Antihaxxer]

How can you have Gyarados by Misty ?

[Organization Member XIV]

Originally Posted by Fat Antihaxxer

How can you have Gyarados by Misty ?

Buy it from the guy in the Pokemon Center near Mt. Moon. He's bald.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Antihaxxer

How can you have Gyarados by Misty ?

Investing 500 bucks into a terrible-tasting fish and another 2 hours grinding it on zubats.

[Antihaxxer]

I know about the 500 gold but the amount of grinding is too much high ! The earliest Gyarados for me was in St Anne ...

[Organization Member XIV]

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

Alright just coming in here with a nitpick, but it is totally possible (and not even inefficient) to get Snorlax before Erika. Just complete the pokeflute quest before challenging her (Erika in fact does not need to be fought at all prior to Victory Road, the first time Strength is required to progress. Indeed during my Leaf Green Scramble many months ago I caught and used Snorlax in Erika's gym, where he had little trouble against the mainly special attackers there.

Actually, here's a quote from the update where I got Bob in that scramble and used him in Erika's gym (not against her himself, I DID have a Charmeleon):



Note that Rest is actually a cost effective healing tool in-game thanks to the Pokeflute.

Also note that Bob (Gen1OU was his name in-game, I just thought it was dumb so I called him Bob in my updates >:D) ended up being my MVP for that challange, above my Charizard. So yeah, agreeing with Top for Snorlax.

Lol fighting Erika with Level 50s because you wait until Victory Road.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Organization Member XIV

Lol fighting Erika with Level 50s because you wait until Victory Road.

sir what are you smoking tm15's available at the department store
hyper beam snorlax is definitely possible long before victory road

[Organization Member XIV]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

sir what are you smoking tm15's available at the department store
hyper beam snorlax is definitely possible long before victory road

No I mean you wait until Victory Road to fight Erika and then you have like Level 50 Pokemon to destroy her.