Snover (hail) Suspect Discussion

[Oglemi*]

What you're expected to do in this thread:

1. Post which sets you used in the round and what you found good about it, what beat it, etc.

2. Discuss Snover's (and by extension hail's) place in the tier, has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame? What counters are there to Snover and hail?

3. All prospective and eventually-chosen Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Snover in this thread. As of now the Council isn't determined, but they will have to eventually!

4. The Council, when decided, should also post here to figure out a time when they can get on IRC on #rarelyused to have a dedicated discussion on the suspects. Not all Council members are expected to make decided time, but MOST if not all Council members should try their damndest to attend.

[Nails]

ugh hail makes so much crap worse. sure, there are a couple of pokemon that kick the crap out of hail but a well built hail team shouldn't care about most of them. and you have to dedicate a couple team slots to beating hail or it's going to win. the existence alone of sub protect glaceon (with toxics and 130 SpA blizzards) makes you teambuild in completely different ways. if it gets in on the right mon you're going to lose a pokemon from it. "ha ha my poison type can't get toxiced oh wait you just one shotted me with blizzard before i could break your sub shit". it's kind of like dragon spam in that you know it's coming but you have to overprepare or you are going to get slaughtered from the powerful ice attacks. it's extremely centralizing and without any field effects to reverse it it's too powerful to allow to stay in the tier.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Hail really doesn't make much of an impact in RU. It does not centralize the meta and has issues. Let me explain.

First off, hail teams are dependent on the Mighty Snover to succeed. What's the problem with this? The Mighty Snover is terrible. It does not provide any synergy with the team whatsoever. The liability of the mighty Snover spreads to the rest of the team, which in turn forces the player to build to patch up weaknesses. Having to use Snover, who is weak, slow, and has no synergy, is the biggest crutch to hail.

Another thing with hail is that they often are SR weak. Stealth Rock is a common hazard, and most hail candidates are weak to it. Rotom-F, Glaceon, Walrein, Mandibuzz, and the Mighty Snover are all weak to it. The useless Snover only makes it easier to set up.

Fighting types wreck hail. The Mighty Snover allows Gallade to set up, while the others are going to whoop hail.

Hail's damage also means little. Yes, hail can be annoying, but it usually is easy to destroy for the reasons stated above.

Yes, Hail does have annoying powerhouses. Stallrein and Mandi are both annoying, taking hits like a complete boss and stall. Glaceon and Rotom-F are ridiculously strong and annoying with Sub. But Hail has issues such as the liability of the Mighty Snover, crippling stacked SR weakness, and easy ways to wreck it. And the final nail in the coffin-

Hail has made almost no impact on this meta.

Do Not Ban.

[Limitless]

Originally Posted by Fat Nails

ugh hail makes so much crap worse. sure, there are a couple of pokemon that kick the crap out of hail but a well built hail team shouldn't care about most of them. and you have to dedicate a couple team slots to beating hail or it's going to win.

The problem is that it's very difficult for a "well-built" hail team to be able to deal with all the possible counters for it. I'm not saying it's impossible, but in doing this test I have not seen one hail team that can cover them all. We're not voting on a future metagame where you foresee hail being unstoppable. We're voting on this suspect test, and I've yet to see a hail team be able to deal with all the threats that it needs to. Not to mention, I think Gallade beats almost all hail teams straight up.

the existence alone of sub protect glaceon (with toxics and 130 SpA blizzards) makes you teambuild in completely different ways. if it gets in on the right mon you're going to lose a pokemon from it. "ha ha my poison type can't get toxiced oh wait you just one shotted me with blizzard before i could break your sub shit".

Is this even used? Almost all I've seen are Choice Specs... This set is easily beat by many Pokemon that are viable in both offensive and defensive teams. Not an issue.

it's kind of like dragon spam in that you know it's coming but you have to overprepare or you are going to get slaughtered from the powerful ice attacks. it's extremely centralizing and without any field effects to reverse it it's too powerful to allow to stay in the tier.

I'm really not sure how you have to "over-prepare" when simply putting one Pokemon in can ultimately destroy a hail team, let alone one move. The two biggest threats to hail, in my opinion, are Munchlax and Gallade. Munchlax can just sit there all day on a hail team. Gallade straight up sweeps, if the user is at all competent. Lastly, most people sack Snover in the first couple of turns. By using Sunny Day once, you've effectively ruined any chance for a hail team to have any sort of dominance.

[Molk]

Originally Posted by Fat Limitless

Is this even used? Almost all I've seen are Choice Specs... This set is easily beat by many Pokemon that are viable in both offensive and defensive teams. Not an issue.

Yeah, Subprotect Glaceon is a pretty good set, a lot like Stallrein actually thanks to Ice Body, sure it doesnt have that great bulk to help it set up a substitute, but the huge amount of special attack glaceon has over walrein helps it seperate itself, i have never seen a toxic glaceon though, i almost always use hidden power ground for things like Lanturn and Aggron. The set becomes even more threatening with Toxic Spikes support wearing down threats that would slow down or stop Subtect Glaceon otherwise such as Slowking, but i really dont think Toxic Spikes are worth using in the RU tier with the good spinners and Poison-types running around tbh. Anyways, i really love Subtect Glaceon, and i think its just as good as, if not better than Choice Specs.


Im going to agree with Limitless about Gallade, from what ive seen its perfectly capable of demolishing a lot of Hail Cores by itself, especially Bulk Up Gallade, who can heal off damage taken from repeated Blizzards with a powerful STAB Drain Punch. SubBU Gallade can also set up a substitute against common hail support Pokemon such as Slowking, Poliwrath, and Uxie without much trouble at all, and can then proceed to slowly boost with Bulk Up until its strong enough to penetrate the opponent's Fighting-type resist. Ive already made several posts about hail in the NP thread and ive discussed it on irc quite a bit, so i think all of you pretty much know where i stand on hail's impact in the RU metagame, but ill make sure to bring up some more arguments later if needed :>.

[Hot N Cold]

Hail is most hard to deal on the practise because the big potential and the different strategies with the mons just spam blizzard with high SpA like Glaceon or Jynx while another mons like Stallrein are really annoying to break when this get a sub.

I agree with Limitless about bulky Gallade with Drain Punch, can deal pretty well hail teams but Munchlax is too bad. Regarding Glaceon i find better the set Life Orb + 3 attacks and filler because take advantage from Ice Body, while you can take advantage about your last move like Filler (Protect to heal a bit while help to scout, Fake Tears against defensive teams or Substitute), on the other hand SubProtect Glaceon is very annoying and help with PP wars, this set is like Stallrein but without bulk while can do a lot of damage in the opponent.

Some interesting damages with the LO Glaceon:

252 SpAtk Life Orb Glaceon (+SpAtk) Shadow Ball vs 248 HP/116 SpDef Slowking (+SpDef) : 48,35% - 56,49%
Entry hazards damage: 49
After entry hazards: 239 - 271 (60,81% - 68,96%)
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 SpAtk Life Orb Glaceon (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Ground vs 40 HP/216 SpDef Lanturn (+SpDef) : 48,88% - 57,36%
Entry hazards damage: 50
After entry hazards: 246 - 280 (61,35% - 69,83%)
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

About another mons that work well against this team in the tier, a lot of solid options, a list some of them:

- Bulky Waters like Resttalker Poliwrath, Resttalker Lanturn and Slowking.
- Fire types like Entei, Moltres or Magmortar can smash hail teams without bulky waters and with Stealth Rock support.
- Cinccino, mainly CB can break all subs and then a super effective hit with Rock Blast.
- Steel types are dangerous for hail teams like Escavalier (now with Overcoat) and Klinkang.
- Fighting types with a lot of options since Resttalker Hariyama or spamming super effective attacks with Medicham, Hitmon, etc
- Finally if you feel that your team is weak against this teams you can use something to cancel hail like Rain Dance / Sunny Day.

[for54years]

The thing that has kept me from running hail is Snover itself. During this round, I would normally just set up spikes on it and then break its sash with Qwilfish, and then KO it with anything else. After that, it was just a matter of using Sunny Day once and the match was mine. Some players were getting wise to this later on and protecting their Snover, but it is really hard to keep switching something around that is Stealth Rock weak and generally frail.

I also agree with the above points that solid, useful pokemon like Gallade or (insert multiple good steel types available in tier here) can seize the momentum and wreck the whole blizzspam or hail stall strategy altogether. A well-constructed team can adapt to hail without completely changing their approach. The only change I made to the team I had been running before the test began was putting Sunny Day on Cresselia, but I also had the option of Rain Dance on Kabutops, and so forth. Hail just doesn't seem that insurmountable to me.

[IstheCakeReallyaLie]

Snover is an NFE Pokemon, with stats to match. As others have said, it has very little actual use. Frankly, even with Eviolite, it's useless. No stats above 62, 7 weaknesses, two types generally agreed to be some of the worst, terribad speed, and probably the worst weather.

On the bright side, you're not going to be weather-warring.

I sort of wish I could vote, though. Bad time to take a break. ;_; At least people are saying it's not broken, though.

[Limitless]

Hail is interesting in that I think at one point in the future it could be labeled as something that needs to be banned, but from what I've seen, nobody has been able to put together the right combinations to make hail overly powerful. Maybe there's not a combination that does that. Since I saw no evidence that hail could handle such threats like Gallade, defensive Entei, Munchlax, or anything that doesn't break to a hail barrage, I believe that its effectiveness is limited to the opponent's lack of recognizing a threat. In OU, if you do not prepare for a Lucario, and you subsequently get swept, that does not mean Lucario is overpowered. All that does is show the incompetence of the team builder. There are many ways to deal with hail in the current metagame, through both Pokemon and moves.

[Nails]

my paragraphs

Hail's impact on the metagame is subtle but dramatic. Like any other powerful change, such as cresselia it requires adaptation to accomodate. People overadapted to cressy and somehow the consensus deemed it not broken. The same thing happened here. Stall makes lots of team builds less viable solely due to its existence. Life orbs and choice scarves become a bigger liability because the more of them you pack on the harder it is to overcome a hail team in those 20% of games you play. It's like any other threat in that respect, you need to cover it and if you don't you're swept.

Offensively hail is actually receiving criticism which is ridiculous. How hail works: set up toxic spikes, force other team to switch in grass types, blizzard. Repeat until they sacrifice their grass type, then sweep with a sweeper that needs opposing grasses removed. It's not one single pokemon doing the sweeping which... is maybe relevant? But the hail snover provides is incredibly valuable team support strictly in terms of extra damage. For example Glaceon's choice specs blizzard does roughly 34% to the defensive slowking listed in the analysis (248/116+), which, when paired with toxic spikes and sr is not enough to 2hko slowking switching in (it's about 97% before factoring in two turns of lefties) but thanks to hail damage happening before leftovers slowking must withstand 103% of its hp in damage and so it cannot counter specs glaceon when glaceon has tspikes support (yes. tspikes are incredibly good on hail. don't ask me why no one else has figured this out, it's even part of the standard hail stall recipe. turns out hail offense likes them just as much).

I could go on about how staller glaceon has shit tons of power and is fast enough and bulky enough to defeat 95% of the tier 1v1 but honestly I can't believe I even have to have this discuss it. RU got completely shifted when hail got introduced, and imo hail breaks all three characteristics of an uber, putting snover clearly over the line in the support characteristic.

[Level 51]

finally got around to writing this :)

Hail is probably safe to stay in the tier; although I will attest to Sash Snover's usefulness, it is nonetheless a step down (disregarding the permanent hail of course) from any other (typical) RU Pokemon which could otherwise be placed in that spot.

Furthermore, Hail's main draws are the perfect-accuracy Blizzard and the residual damage caused by Hail; both of these can be sat out fairly well some of the better tanks in RU. Even Munchlax can quite safely plonk itself in front of a Rotom-Frost and weather any attacks thrown at it. Fuck, I made a pun. Hence, it is usually quite easy to force a switch on most Hail abusers, which usually hurts them a lot due to their weakness to Stealth Rock.

Most of the Pokemon which can take advantage of hail are Ice-type. Because of this common typing, almost all of the best of them, excluding Stallrein, are weak to Fire; all of them are weak to Fighting and Rock. Most Hail teams (MOLK DOESN'T COUNT) hence add on Pokemon to attempt to balance out the synergy, hence leaving very little space for the actual Hail users.

On the other hand, I agree that Blizzard rips through a ton of the metagame, meaning that certain precautions have to be taken for it. From what I've experienced so far, Hail teams have proven to be the most efficacious, so I'm actually rather on the fence about this. As long as adequate preparations are made, though (and may I note that these "preparations" don't throw a team that far off-balance), I don't see Snover (or, by extension, Hail) being too good for RU.

[Deoxys 386]

OK, here's the set I've been using in my suspect team.

Lil' Yeti (Snover) (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Snow Warning
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Blizzard
- Protect

This set is the most successful set I've been able to run with Snover. The strategy behind it is pretty standard for a SubSeeder: to lead off with it. Scout the opponent's move with Protect, if necessary. If a move like Stealth Rock is predicted, set up a Substitute, and then seed the opponent the next turn. Continue stalling for Hail and Leech Seed damage, and doing damage with Blizzard when necessary. If a Fire-type move is scouted at any time, switch to a Flash Fire user (the only viable released one for RU is Rapidash, as far as I'm concerned) to gain the boost from the Fire-type move.

The reason for the physically defensive spread is for two main reasons: the first is that most Fire-type moves that would threaten Snover are special, which Snover cannot take even with investment. Thus, it goes into physical defense. Another good reason for a physically defensive spread is so that Uxie's uninvested U-Turn does not break the Substitute. Also, the physically defensive spread allows Snover to survive a suicide lead Aerodactyl's Stone Edge. (I actually see that set quite often) Calcs below:
0 Atk Uxie (-Atk) U-turn vs 252 HP/4 Def Eviolite Snover: 25.31% - 30.25% (4 hits to KO)
0 Atk Uxie (-Atk) U-turn vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Snover: 17.28% - 20.99% (5-6 hits to KO)
252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Snover: 69.44% - 82.41% (2 hits to KO)

As far as Snover and Hail's place in RU, I really don't see it as broken at all. Snover is in a tough place. There is a lot that, if Snover is up against, will force Snover to either switch out or get KO'd if it does not have a chance to put up a Substitute, e.g. any Pokemon that carries a Fire-type move (though a Flash Fire user is nearly essential for this reason), a super-effective STAB Close Combat, among others. As far as hail itself, the one reason I don't see it as broken is because of Snow Cloak being banned. Without Snow Cloak, the only ways to abuse hail are BlizzSpam, Ice Body, and residual damage. Overall, Pokemon like Rotom-F, Cryogonal, and Nidoqueen get to spam Blizzard, StallRein gets a niche in RU, and Focus Sashes and Sturdy become less effective. Every listed Pokemon who can BlizzSpam also has its own solid counters already existing in RU. So, I really don't see any reason why Hail should not be unbanned.

[Limitless]

Originally Posted by Fat Nails

Hail's impact on the metagame is subtle but dramatic. Like any other powerful change, such as cresselia it requires adaptation to accomodate. People overadapted to cressy and somehow the consensus deemed it not broken. The same thing happened here.

I don't see how people "over-adapted" to hail. By simply using Gallade, you completely screw over hail. Add in the fact that specially defensive Entei can just Roar you through the entire battle, I just don't see how you can say that we have too many counters for it in each team. As I've said, it only requires one or two Pokemon to completely shut down an entire team. This isn't like countering a Pokemon. In that case it would be a one to one ratio. Here, if you use two Pokemon to shut down an entire team, I don't see how you can possibly compare the two. However, I still stand by the fact that you can just use one Pokemon to counter hail completely, and don't really need the excess, unless you wanted to use them for the core of your team.

Stall makes lots of team builds less viable solely due to its existence. Life orbs and choice scarves become a bigger liability because the more of them you pack on the harder it is to overcome a hail team in those 20% of games you play.

I don't see how having a Choice Scarf user is a disadvantage against hail teams. Life Orb users sure, but not Choice Scarf. If the Choice Scarf user is faster than Rotom-F, then in most cases, that Pokemon will wreck havoc.

It's like any other threat in that respect, you need to cover it and if you don't you're swept.

My point exactly.

Offensively hail is actually receiving criticism which is ridiculous. How hail works: set up toxic spikes, force other team to switch in grass types, blizzard. Repeat until they sacrifice their grass type, then sweep with a sweeper that needs opposing grasses removed. It's not one single pokemon doing the sweeping which... is maybe relevant? But the hail snover provides is incredibly valuable team support strictly in terms of extra damage. For example Glaceon's choice specs blizzard does roughly 34% to the defensive slowking listed in the analysis (248/116+), which, when paired with toxic spikes and sr is not enough to 2hko slowking switching in (it's about 97% before factoring in two turns of lefties) but thanks to hail damage happening before leftovers slowking must withstand 103% of its hp in damage and so it cannot counter specs glaceon when glaceon has tspikes support (yes. tspikes are incredibly good on hail. don't ask me why no one else has figured this out, it's even part of the standard hail stall recipe. turns out hail offense likes them just as much).

I didn't know hail could have this many things incorporated into it... You talk as if when you stick all these things in a team you aren't getting screwed in other aspects. Hail has fragile team building. And with all the "things" you're talking about, any rest/talk user would take a shit on it. Gallade with Lum Berry also takes a shit on it. We're talking putting one Pokemon on a team and shitting on your idea. I don't understand how we're overcompensating and still getting fucked over.

I could go on about how staller glaceon has shit tons of power and is fast enough and bulky enough to defeat 95% of the tier 1v1 but honestly I can't believe I even have to have this discuss it. RU got completely shifted when hail got introduced, and imo hail breaks all three characteristics of an uber, putting snover clearly over the line in the support characteristic.

It does not beat 95% of the tier. If anyone thinks that the metagame that we just played was broken, then they failed to team build correctly. I do not deny that a future metagame with hail could be broken, but no one has presented a team that overcomes some of the most common RU Pokemon. Again, we are voting on this suspect test, not a future one in which you imagine possible scenarios. If you want to vote on a metagame in which we have not played, then just do away with the entire suspect test process and just vote on what you envision.

And just so we're clear, even if hail is proven to be overpowered in the next suspect test, I stand by my decision in this suspect test. I voted on what I saw, not what I envisioned.

[Nails]

Originally Posted by Fat Limitless

I don't see how people "over-adapted" to hail. By simply using Gallade, you completely screw over hail. Add in the fact that specially defensive Entei can just Roar you through the entire battle, I just don't see how you can say that we have too many counters for it in each team. As I've said, it only requires one or two Pokemon to completely shut down an entire team. This isn't like countering a Pokemon. In that case it would be a one to one ratio. Here, if you use two Pokemon to shut down an entire team, I don't see how you can possibly compare the two. However, I still stand by the fact that you can just use one Pokemon to counter hail completely, and don't really need the excess, unless you wanted to use them for the core of your team.

CB Tomb traps Gallade, certain slowking sets can handle it, specs glaceon can nuke it, you can stall it out with toxic spikes, a competent hail team can cover its general weaknesses. Specially defensive entei is shit outside of beating hail, that's the type of overcentralization i was talking about. That someone would actually use SpD entei to me is a testament to hail's power.

And no, one to two pokemon are not capable of shutting down a well played hail team. The hail team gives you awesome weapons to use and then it's in the players hands to compensate for its weaknesses, and then it becomes a game of pokemon. And if you can eliminate the other team's 1-2 hail checks (which is not as difficult as you've made it seem) you can pretty much get a clean sweep.

I don't see how having a Choice Scarf user is a disadvantage against hail teams. Life Orb users sure, but not Choice Scarf. If the Choice Scarf user is faster than Rotom-F, then in most cases, that Pokemon will wreck havoc.

Depends who you get it in on and who the scarfer is. If the team has a check to the scarf they're just going to be taking extra damage without a power boost. They can be tricky to play around, sure, but a hail team should have at least 2-3 protects spread around on various members. Scarves are predictable.

I didn't know hail could have this many things incorporated into it... You talk as if when you stick all these things in a team you aren't getting screwed in other aspects. Hail has fragile team building. And with all the "things" you're talking about, any rest/talk user would take a shit on it. Gallade with Lum Berry also takes a shit on it. We're talking putting one Pokemon on a team and shitting on your idea. I don't understand how we're overcompensating and still getting fucked over.

Choice Specs Glaceon and a toxic spikes user isn't exactly a stretch to include on a hail team. Glaceon can power through any rest talker that I know of, and lum Gallade gets covered by your gallade check. Yes, hail has fragile team building. But not carrying a fighting type check on a hail team is stupid, especially one as important as gallade. And yes, it is possible to cover gallade.

It does not beat 95% of the tier. If anyone thinks that the metagame that we just played was broken, then they failed to team build correctly. I do not deny that a future metagame with hail could be broken, but no one has presented a team that overcomes some of the most common RU Pokemon. Again, we are voting on this suspect test, not a future one in which you imagine possible scenarios. If you want to vote on a metagame in which we have not played, then just do away with the entire suspect test process and just vote on what you envision.

Given a free sub, which is not a huge stretch given it can force out a ton of pokemon with the threat of blizzards, yeah, sub/protect/blizzard/[toxic/hp ground] Glaceon can beat 95% of the tier. You need to be bulky enough to take two blizzards or faster than it and able to take one blizzard, carry leftovers so you don't get hail stalled, and if you're slower than it you need to have some way to deal with toxic (so no slowkings or lanturns, that loses to glaceon 1v1). I wouldn't use a 95% of the tier claim lightly, but i do think 95% of the tier loses to it.

Or you can never give it a chance to set up a free sub, which results in glaceon blasting you away with its 130 SpA. The Glaceon user will happily comply and take a free ko whenever he switches in Glaceon. This is not an effective method of dealing with Glaceon, however.

And just so we're clear, even if hail is proven to be overpowered in the next suspect test, I stand by my decision in this suspect test. I voted on what I saw, not what I envisioned.

Fair enough. I felt like I've seen enough this test. And at the end of the day all we're left with is arguments and opinions.

[Limitless]

Originally Posted by Fat Nails

CB Tomb traps Gallade, certain slowking sets can handle it, specs glaceon can nuke it, you can stall it out with toxic spikes, a competent hail team can cover its general weaknesses. Specially defensive entei is shit outside of beating hail, that's the type of overcentralization i was talking about. That someone would actually use SpD entei to me is a testament to hail's power.

Specially defensive Entei is actually really useful, even more so outside of facing hail teams. I actually added it to my team more for the fact that it took grass moves like a champ. People have to adapt to the metagame, not just use the same things they've been using. Anyone who's used specially defensive Entei knows that is viable even outside of a hail metagame.

Fair enough. I felt like I've seen enough this test. And at the end of the day all we're left with is arguments and opinions.

I think I've seen flashes of what you deem as overpowered. In my opinion, all we're really arguing is whether or not the hail team or non hail team is constructed soundly. Any well constructed team should be able to beat the challenges of the metagame. I also believe that what you're saying is true, but I haven't seen it become popularized throughout the suspect test. In the next test, it could very well be popularized and proved overpowered. However, I haven't seen it used enough in the "correct" fashion to deem it overpowered.