Kyurem-B

[Hiddenfreezer]

Originally Posted by Fat thebrownie

First of all, I don't want to sound mean, but find a damage calc online it's not that hard...

The only one i find are the annoying ones where you have to put in every fricking stat instead of using a pokemon. I really hate to do that. Or even worse, download ugh...

Originally Posted by Fat thebrownie

second of all. If something gets 2hko by focus blast... it's not really a 2hko is it? a move with 70% accuracy... it's basically a 2hko 50% of the time. Second of all, running focus blast on Cube is silly when you can just run HP fire, but since ferrothorn is seen on rain teams most of the time...

Not sure if troll or ... . If you 2HKO with Focus Blast you 2HKO. That's what I want to know. Example: If it deals like ~70% damage on Ferro(with some specific investment), you can easily weaken it enough with Ice Beam (140 * 2 = >240, Focus Blast Power) to kill it with Focus Blast. 2HKO doesn't mean it deals exactly 50%, it can be >50%. My plan isn't to use focus blast twice. I just wanted to know how much Special Attack EV's are needed to get rid of Ferrothorn.

[Lord of Bays]

This calculator is the one I use, and it is by far the best and easiest one I've come across.

You need significant SpAtk investment to get the 2HKO with Focus Blast, which while not inconceivable thanks to his INSANE Attack stat, you're still better off using a teammate to get rid of Ferro.

[green gadgets]

No Chance to OHKO it, with Focus Blast.
252 SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem-B Focus Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Ferrothorn (+SpDef) : 59,09% - 69,89%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)



Damage Calc.

[Silenced Melody]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

170 base attack and 147 base attack is a huge difference. it takes those KOs Haxorus barely squeaked out and makes them reality.

You need to remember that Haxorus gains access to both SD and DD, two valuable set-up moves that Kyurem-B would desperately like to have.

252 +1 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory (+Def) : 35.63% - 41.92%
3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory (+Def) : 33.53% - 39.52%
3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Obviously you'd use Fusion Bolt on Kyurem-B on a Skarmory instead, but this is just a comparison. Haxorus also has the ability to solidly 2HKO at +1 with Aqua Tail in the rain and the ability to OHKO Ferrothorn at +1 with Super Power (and Low Kick after rocks I think. Can't check that).
Kyurem-B and Haxorus are quite similar in my opinion - One boasts a huge attack (and better SpA) with no set up while the other demolishes walls when set up.

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat Silenced Melody

You need to remember that Haxorus gains access to both SD and DD, two valuable set-up moves that Kyurem-B would desperately like to have.

252 +1 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory (+Def) : 35.63% - 41.92%
3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory (+Def) : 33.53% - 39.52%
3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Obviously you'd use Fusion Bolt on Kyurem-B on a Skarmory instead, but this is just a comparison. Haxorus also has the ability to solidly 2HKO at +1 with Aqua Tail in the rain and the ability to OHKO Ferrothorn at +1 with Super Power (and Low Kick after rocks I think. Can't check that).
Kyurem-B and Haxorus are quite similar in my opinion - One boasts a huge attack (and better SpA) with no set up while the other demolishes walls when set up.

I wouldn't set up knowing my opponent has a skarmory. Of course in your example it would seem they are similar because they both don't hit one of their main counters very hard. Thats like if I said starmie and vaporeon are similar because they both hit blissey very poorly.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat Silenced Melody

You need to remember that Haxorus gains access to both SD and DD, two valuable set-up moves that Kyurem-B would desperately like to have.

252 +1 Atk Life Orb Haxorus Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory (+Def) : 35.63% - 41.92%
3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory (+Def) : 33.53% - 39.52%
3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Obviously you'd use Fusion Bolt on Kyurem-B on a Skarmory instead, but this is just a comparison. Haxorus also has the ability to solidly 2HKO at +1 with Aqua Tail in the rain and the ability to OHKO Ferrothorn at +1 with Super Power (and Low Kick after rocks I think. Can't check that).
Kyurem-B and Haxorus are quite similar in my opinion - One boasts a huge attack (and better SpA) with no set up while the other demolishes walls when set up.

Even with set up, Haxorus still isn't very good. Haxorus can use Swords Dance and may be able to kill, what, one Pokemon before something faster comes in and revenge kills it? It gets even worse when talking about Dragon Dance, when you consider Hax needs two of them in order to not get reveng killed by powerful Scarfers. It's the same issue I've always had with DD Salamence and QD Volcarona; they need to set up at least twice if they don't want revenge killed. Base 100 Speed isn't what it used to be, and base 97 for Haxorus is even worse. Honestly, I'd rather just give up on all of Haxorus' fancy bells and whistles and use Kyubey to just straight-up kill shit.

[thebrownie]

Originally Posted by Fat Hiddenfreezer

Not sure if troll or ... . If you 2HKO with Focus Blast you 2HKO. That's what I want to know. Example: If it deals like ~70% damage on Ferro(with some specific investment), you can easily weaken it enough with Ice Beam (140 * 2 = >240, Focus Blast Power) to kill it with Focus Blast. 2HKO doesn't mean it deals exactly 50%, it can be >50%. My plan isn't to use focus blast twice. I just wanted to know how much Special Attack EV's are needed to get rid of Ferrothorn.

My point is that Cube isn't 2hkoing Ferrothorn and Gyro ball destroys Cube.

[Rayquaza_]

That's assuming Ferrothorn runs Gyro Ball in the first place.
If it runs Power Whip then Kyurem-B laughs at it, especially if Kyu is running Substitute.
In my experience Ferrothorn hardly ever runs both attacking moves and Power Whip is the more common of the two, so let's not assume that every Ferrothorn checks Kyurem.

Honestly, Kyurem doesn't even need to run max attacking EVs. Many successful sets make use of its bulk in order to lure potential checks and destroy them.
And in this meta, I'd take Mach Punch and Bullet Punch weakness over Ice Shard weakness any day. The OU tier is literally saturated with ice-weak pokemon and I'd rather not have more than one in my team.

[Anikrahman1995]

Originally Posted by Fat thebrownie

My point is that Cube isn't 2hkoing Ferrothorn and Gyro ball destroys Cube.

What? Focus Blast + Ice Beam is a clean 2hko. Gyro ball does not OHKO Kyurem-B. Since Ferrothorn is switcing into Kyurem-B, it will be getting 2hkoed before it can retaliate with one Gyro Ball.

[green gadgets]

But Focus Blast has only 70% on Accuracy. When Ferrorthorn is switching-in and you miss with Focus Blast.

I mean that Sciszor is the most used Pokemon on OU, who handles Kyurem-B very easily. Kyurem-B is good in OU.

[Charro]

"Easily" is exaggerated considering that CB Adamant Fusion Bolt does 64.1% - 75.5% to 248/0 Scizor, without a Wish passer on his team, Scizor will die the next time it switches into Kyurem-B regardless of the attack it uses since Outrage does 57.4% - 67.6%

[Tassa]

Imagine if Kyu-B would have Ice Shard ? ^^
Just OHKOing easily all what have a *4 Ice weakness, a lot of what have a *2 weakness, and Breloom would not be a problem anymore.
Maybe enough to have it back to Uber, or does it need a little more ? Mmm.

[725roy]

Originally Posted by Fat Charro

"Easily" is exaggerated considering that CB Adamant Fusion Bolt does 64.1% - 75.5% to 248/0 Scizor, without a Wish passer on his team, Scizor will die the next time it switches into Kyurem-B regardless of the attack it uses since Outrage does 57.4% - 67.6%

Even if Scizor happens to come in onto an Outrage, as long it's Banded (which is a vey common Scizor set) and has Bullet Punch, it easily cripples Kyub, if not taking it out.

[Hugin]

IIRC, even LO Scizor is likely to take Kyu-B out after rocks.

[ClubbingSealCub]

Originally Posted by Fat Hugin

IIRC, even LO Scizor is likely to take Kyu-B out after rocks.

75% chance. 224/0 ensure it avoids an OHKO after rocks.

CB OHKOes anyway though.

[PK Gaming]

Check out this great Kyurem-B review

If you're not sure how to use Kyurem-B, then watch this video.

[nyttyn]

That video was kind of worthless. It was 2 minutes and 40 seconds of "um."


Shortened, in case anyone doesn't want to sit through the umpocalypce: "Use it early to mid game, hone claws slow, scarf slow, salamence better for scarf, use on bulky offence and balanced offence, use it early-mid."


Also, lol@great resistances.

[Tassa]

Originally Posted by Fat 725roy

Even if Scizor happens to come in onto an Outrage, as long it's Banded (which is a vey common Scizor set) and has Bullet Punch, it easily cripples Kyub, if not taking it out.

He means that the first time you Fusion Bolt, you switch out, and second time Scizor is just not able to switch on you.

Otherwhise, I up the topic about how it would have be if he learned Ice Shard but it seems to interset nobody ? x)

[Rayquaza_]

Originally Posted by Fat nyttyn

Also, lol@great resistances.

Last time I checked water and electric are great resistances, especially in a rain-dominated metagame.
Grass resistance is a nice bonus to have, too.

[nmitchell890]

In reply to the comment about Ice Shard, it would be extremely useful on Kyurem-B. I'm not sure if that's enough to send it back to Ubers though. Probably, Mamoswine owns shit with Ice Shard coming off base 130 Atk, imagine what Kyurem-B would do with it.

Something people are very quick to miss is that Kyurem-B is astonishingly bulky and has great resistances. I tried out the SubRoost Hone Claws set with a spread of 252HP/64Def/136SpD/56Spe and found setting up on most bulky waters almost too easy, even in rain. Even specially defensive Heatran fails to break the Substitute with Lava Plume in neutral weather (not that any Heatran with sense would use Lava Plume on Kyurem-B anyway but you get the point). Another interesting calc is that Choice Specs Keldeo needs a Modest nature (lol) to OHKO with Secret Sword. It is incredibly bulky and takes on attacks very well with a defensive spread. Even without investment, Kyurem-B packs more power than a fully invested Salamence or Terrakion with neutral natures so don't think its missing out on power.

[nyttyn]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

Last time I checked water and electric are great resistances, especially in a rain-dominated metagame.
Grass resistance is a nice bonus to have, too.

They're great if you just look at the resistances, sure, but overall Kyurem-B's resistances would be, at best, above average when you take into consideration weaknesses. Great is very much a stretch.

Not to diss the Cube's bulk, as it is something to be feared, but its weaknesses really hurt.

[Siggu]

Originally Posted by Fat nyttyn

They're great if you just look at the resistances, sure, but overall Kyurem-B's resistances would be, at best, above average when you take into consideration weaknesses. Great is very much a stretch.

Not to diss the Cube's bulk, as it is something to be feared, but its weaknesses really hurt.

Heatran is weak to Water, Fighting and Ground, but that doesn't stop its typing from being great

Sure, Kyurem-B's weaknesses hurt, but then you consider that all its weaknesses are almost entirely made of physical attacks... and you find a pokémon whose typing is very good at the special side

[zbabyovr9000]

Has anyone tried running mixed defensive Kyurem-B?

Kyurem-B @ Leftovers
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 SDef
Sassy Nature
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Roost
- Dragon Tail

This thing stalls out so many teams for me, especially with hazards support. Destroys rain, Specs Toed does 71.08% max with Focus Miss, LO Tornadus-T Hurricane only doing 48.12% max (yes superpower does more but then you can roost up barring crit). This thing always lives CB Victini's V-create (not under sun though, but it can take scarf under sun still of course), and takes 78.58% max from CB Scizor Bullet Punch.

Basically this thing tanks almost anything except Dracos, Outrages, Hi Jump Kicks and Close Combats, and these moves are easy to cover with the rest of your team. And even those moves might not KO if it's coming from a scarfed mon.

I wish I had my logs saved, this thing 1 v 4'd a guy for 50 turns and stalled them out. You should try using this :]

PS: the reason for this over regular Kyurem: powerful dragon tail, comprable ice beam, only slightly worse special bulk. Lack of pressure is bad, but the power of dragon tail is better imo

[nmitchell890]

Tornadus-T doing less than 50% with Hurricane is very interesting. Obviously can't switch in but it can come into the water moves that rain teams try to spam, set up Substitute and go to town. There's just one thing bugging me; why Ice Beam over Hone Claws? What does Ice Beam hit that makes it so important over Hone Claws? Personally I would rather have a more powerful, perfectly accurate Dragon Tail than a move with similar coverage to my main attacking move coming off my lower attacking stat. I would much rather have Fusion Bolt or even Focus Blast over Ice Beam if I wasn't using Hone Claws.

[malomyotismon]

Originally Posted by Fat zbabyovr9000

Has anyone tried running mixed defensive Kyurem-B?

Kyurem-B @ Leftovers
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 SDef
Sassy Nature
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Roost
- Dragon Tail

This thing stalls out so many teams for me, especially with hazards support. Destroys rain, Specs Toed does 71.08% max with Focus Miss, LO Tornadus-T Hurricane only doing 48.12% max (yes superpower does more but then you can roost up barring crit). This thing always lives CB Victini's V-create (not under sun though, but it can take scarf under sun still of course), and takes 78.58% max from CB Scizor Bullet Punch.

Basically this thing tanks almost anything except Dracos, Outrages, Hi Jump Kicks and Close Combats, and these moves are easy to cover with the rest of your team. And even those moves might not KO if it's coming from a scarfed mon.

I wish I had my logs saved, this thing 1 v 4'd a guy for 50 turns and stalled them out. You should try using this :]

PS: the reason for this over regular Kyurem: powerful dragon tail, comprable ice beam, only slightly worse special bulk. Lack of pressure is bad, but the power of dragon tail is better imo

i have tried this and the ability to pressure stall is worth more than the power of dragon tail, as withering down the opponents moves such as stone edge while behind a sub is worth more than the rather large damage output of dragon tail in my opinion.