np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

And don't you dare tell me specially defensive Zapdos is viable in this meta or that specially defensive Rotom-W is good. That's bullshit. These sets weren't even viable before Tornadus-T and they won't be viable once he leaves. Specialized sets for countering one Pokemon were never good, they are just a way of swallowing our pride as we accept that solitary Pokemon ruining the meta.

You are reaching. Specially defensive was around BEFORE Tornadus-T and is as viable as you want it to be. It countered the other Tornadus and Togekiss. But wait, it counters Scizor, Metagross, offensive Jirachi, and probably a half a dozen other pokemon I haven't thought of yet. Zapdos is perfectly viable in this damn Metagame and doesn't actually need to go full specially defensive to even beat Tornadus-T reliably.

Tornadus-T is annoying because of Regenerator but I have a hard time banning anything with HARD counters and some pretty nice checks. This thing has absolutely no way to beat Jirachi in the Rain. Magnezone doesn't care too much about it, as none of the fighting moves will subsequently KO. Jolteon just doesn't give a shit, Rotom is good along with any Electric type. Then shit like Weavile, Mamoswine and Scarf anything give him some trouble.

Keldeo? Lmao.. not even up for discussion. OU.

[Friar]

I mostly use Specs Tornadus-T, but on a recent team switched to Life Orb and am surprised by how much I like it. Not saying either set is better, but being able to smack a counter with Hurricane, and then have the option to switch moves is really quite nice. Your Fighting attack batters down TTar / Heatran, you can Taunt any defensive switch really, but makes the most difference against blobs, Wish Jirachi, and Specially Defensive Skarmory. U-turn is nice to get a bit more damage on Rotom-W, or simply scout for a double switch, which I've found people do surprisingly often trying to get a leg up on what they presume is coming in or to get their weather back up. It certainly doesn't hurt that Tornadus-T won't usually take damage even with Life Orb because of Regenerator as long as you can keep SR off the field.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

Specs has definitely become the more common set in my experience. Life Orb is rarely seen. Neither set is better, per se, as they both have their merits. I think the reason Specs is what I've found to be more common is that it takes more prediction to pull off well, but it's also better when you do pull off your predictions, so it's often used by a higher skill level of player than the Life Orb set. Not saying LO is bad by any means, it's a fantastic stallbreaker...but there's hardly any stall around these days, and other more defensive Pokemon function as better stallbreakers anyways (Jellicent, Mew, etc). The difference between Specs damage and LO damage is enough to change the course of a battle, though. For example, a LO Hurricane from Torn-T on standard Latios after rocks will (almost?) never OHKO. However, a Specs Hurricane will (always?) OHKO after rocks (sorry no calc on me atm but that's what I know from experience). That can sometimes be a huge difference maker. Other important factors include being able to 3HKO Specially Defensive Rotom-W after rocks, even locked into Hurricane. Get off some early damage on Rotom, then send in Specs Torn-T and the opponent is forced to lose something to it. I can certainly understand the argument for going LO > Specs (more versatility, easier to use) but for now I'll stick with Specs as my preferred set.



Second smartest guy with under 5 posts I've ever met.

I strongly disagree with the bolded part. Torn-T is a much better stallbreaker than Mew or Jellicent could ever hope to be due to Regenerator + faster Taunt + mixed almost unresisted coverage + the possibility of a Dugtrio partnership. Jellicent is easily beaten by many Pokemon that are commonly found in stall teams, such as Celebi, Thunder Jirachi, Roserade, and Heatran in sun. Similarly Mew is shut down by Heatran, Xatu and Gliscor (without Ice Beam), and SpD Jirachi (the burn can easily be healed after with cleric support). Torn-T has only two Pokemon that stall teams commonly use as hard counters, Zapdos and Jirachi (and Jirachi stops the other stallbreakers too, so that's not something against Torn-T), meaning that many stall teams are quite weak to Torn-T. You can even check the DT Proejct threat if you don't believe me.

Also another thing i dislike about Specs Torn-T is that the minute it kills something with Hurricane it is Pursuit bait for BandTar.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

I have a hard time banning anything with HARD counters and some pretty nice checks. This thing has absolutely no way to beat Jirachi in the Rain. Magnezone doesn't care too much about it, as none of the fighting moves will subsequently KO. Jolteon just doesn't give a shit, Rotom is good along with any Electric type. Then shit like Weavile, Mamoswine and Scarf anything give him some trouble.

You're dead wrong on all counts. Let's a take a quick look at all these "HARD counters" you seem to have so much confidence in.

- Jirachi: Can and has been confusion-haxed to death in the past. As numerous users state above me, it's also pathetically easy to hit, then U-Turn out to a counter. The only set that prevents Torn-T from getting through most of the time is Specially Defensive, as Scarf and SubCM are both 3HKO'd by Specs Hurricane. The U-Turn factor is the biggest thing preventing Jirachi from hard countering the bird, though. Every competent user's Rain team has a Jirachi counter, and getting it in on Rachi is a piece of cake with U-Turn. It's also far too easily trapped and killed by Dugtrio, a common sight on Rain Offense teams.

- Rotom-W: 3HKO'd by Specs Hurricane after rocks, and easily worn down because of its lack of reliable recovery. As it switches in and takes rocks damage, hit it with a Hurricane, U-Turn out, and it's already down to 60%. Do that one more time, and voila, the "HARD counter" just died easily.

- Jolteon: Hardly viable in OU due to its pathetic fraility and lack of a decent movepool. It's 2HKO'd by Specs Hurricane, meaning it can only switch in a pitiful one time. Not to mention it's hard walled by Ferrothorn, which every Tornadus-T and its mother carries as a common partner on Rain teams.

- Magnezone: You flat-out lied on this one. LO Focus Blast is a OHKO on standard Magnezone. Superpower doesn't do the trick, but as others state above me, the majority of Torn-T use Focus Blast these days. Also, Dugtrio.

- Weavile: You're really reaching now. Nobody, and I mean nobody, uses Weavile in OU and gets it to work. I think I've seen maybe two somewhat decent teams that use Weavile in OU. It can't even switch into any one of Tornadus-T's moves, and you're claming it's a check? Try again.

- Mamoswine: CB Mamoswine's Ice Shard doesn't even OHKO Torn-T, whereas a Specs Hurricane or LO Focus Blast does the trick on Mamo. And if you're using Scarf Mamoswine, why are you posting in this thread and not chilling on Serebii?

All your so-called "HARD counters" don't withstand a simple one-on-one analysis.

Alexwolf, Jellicent and Mew are much better against your generic full stall team. Celebi and Roserade and the like are generally only found on semi-stall (think The Great Southern Trendkill-type teams). Mew actually handles Roserade anyways, and Celebi's Giga Drain isn't even doing half damage to standard Jellicent. I understand that situationally Torn-T could be better to have, but on the whole I'll still contend that the two aforementioned are superior stallbreakers.

[PK Gaming]

Wait, why are LO Tornadus-T users using Focus Blast over Superpower? Nevermind Focus Blast's garbage accuracy, Superpower crushes Tyranitar (and Blissey / Chansey which is nice), which "would" have been your greatest obstacle. If you're met with something like Magnezone, just U-turn out(You can do that for free with Regenerator.) or wait until its at 70%. So other than Magnezone, and the extra damage against Rotom-W (SpD variants take like 1% more damage from Focus Blast than Superpwer, same deal with Jirachi), SpD Skarmory (ok you got this one, but i'd much rather destroy Tyranitar), why would you ever run Focus Blast?

(BTW LO Hurricane actually OHKOes Mamoswine)

[Curtains]

Specially defensive ninetales is a pretty good counter to Torn-T. It is all about playing well and not letting it come in for free. We can say this about any threat. I am seeing pages of analysis on counters and checks but someone answer this question...

Which pokemon honestly does it come in on for free and can just spam hurricanes?


Not much. I have never had a problem with torn-t. The key is hitting it early and often. If it comes in on something like a weaken latias then all i do is predict the u-turn. If they hurricane then I bring in a scarfer or something that can handle it. If they switch to a wall then i bring in my own wall breaker and create the momentum. All this talk about counters and hard counters doesn't mean a thing to me because every pokemon in OU has to be accounted for or you lose one way or another.Additionally We have this metagame because people wanted "weather wars" so use the weather to your advantage. The old style of teambuilding and synergy doesn't work in bw2 and we have to admit that.

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

You're dead wrong on all counts. Let's a take a quick look at all these "HARD counters" you seem to have so much confidence in.

- Jirachi: Can and has been confusion-haxed to death in the past.

Hax is a great argument for Ubers, lemme tell you. Let's ban Jirachi for Body Slam. Wish Jirachi stops any fuckshit Tornadus-T does cold. HARD COUNTER.

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

- Rotom-W: 3HKO'd by Specs Hurricane after rocks, and easily worn down because of its lack of reliable recovery. As it switches in and takes rocks damage, hit it with a Hurricane, U-Turn out, and it's already down to 60%. Do that one more time, and voila, the "HARD counter" just died easily.

As you said, HARD COUNTER. It switches in.. threatens a OHKO on Tornadus-T and forces it out. It's not my fault if you can't keep your Tornadus-T counter around long enough, sorry.

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

- Jolteon: Hardly viable in OU due to its pathetic fraility and lack of a decent movepool. It's 2HKO'd by Specs Hurricane, meaning it can only switch in a pitiful one time. Not to mention it's hard walled by Ferrothorn, which every Tornadus-T and its mother carries as a common partner on Rain teams.

Yeah well Jolteon is OU and threatens Tornadus-T. Hell, it's faster making Tornadus-T a liability on the OPPOSING team. It can switch into every move and threatens it out. That is a counter. You can't use a counter's counter as an argument for Uber status. "Well Garchomp is Uber because you need Skarmory / Bronzong to avoid something dying and everyone who runs Garchomp runs a Heatran!" Very very poor logic, poor argument.

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

- Magnezone: You flat-out lied on this one. LO Focus Blast is a OHKO on standard Magnezone. Superpower doesn't do the trick, but as others state above me, the majority of Torn-T use Focus Blast these days. Also, Dugtrio.

Focus Blast is a 70% accurate move. I said a healthy Magnezone is a check because it is.. Hurricane + Superpower doesn't kill any that invest in Bulk and Focus Blast has a 70% chance of missing, meaning there is a decent chance Tornadus-T will use. Most users won't take that risk unless they have to.

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

- Weavile: You're really reaching now. Nobody, and I mean nobody, uses Weavile in OU and gets it to work. I think I've seen maybe two somewhat decent teams that use Weavile in OU. It can't even switch into any one of Tornadus-T's moves, and you're claming it's a check? Try again.

Weavile is a check. A check threatens a OHKO. Weavile can OHKO and even Pursuit Tornadus-T (which does a health chunk especially after the SR hit coming back in). Weavile is faster, and is perfectly viable in OU. It is not my fault that you don't like Weavile. Great argument yet again.

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

- Mamoswine: CB Mamoswine's Ice Shard doesn't even OHKO Torn-T, whereas a Specs Hurricane or LO Focus Blast does the trick on Mamo. And if you're using Scarf Mamoswine, why are you posting in this thread and not chilling on Serebii?

Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard does about 70%. Yep, terrible check. -_-

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

All your so-called "HARD counters" don't withstand a simple one-on-one analysis.

How about you learn the difference between a check and a counter before attacking a competent user. Lurk more, buddy.

Ohh, and nice response to my piece about Choice Scarfers. Keldeo, Garchomp, Terrakion.. they all outspeed and OHKO Tornadus-T effortlessly. Yet we are seriously considering banning this thing? LOL

[Rayland]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

You are reaching. Specially defensive was around BEFORE Tornadus-T and is as viable as you want it to be. It countered the other Tornadus and Togekiss. But wait, it counters Scizor, Metagross, offensive Jirachi, and probably a half a dozen other pokemon I haven't thought of yet. Zapdos is perfectly viable in this damn Metagame and doesn't actually need to go full specially defensive to even beat Tornadus-T reliably.

Tornadus-T is annoying because of Regenerator but I have a hard time banning anything with HARD counters and some pretty nice checks. This thing has absolutely no way to beat Jirachi in the Rain. Magnezone doesn't care too much about it, as none of the fighting moves will subsequently KO. Jolteon just doesn't give a shit, Rotom is good along with any Electric type. Then shit like Weavile, Mamoswine and Scarf anything give him some trouble.

None of the Pokemon you listed are a hard counter to Tornadus-T.

Jirachi can take a Hurricane, but it can't really do anything back because Tornadus-T can U-Turn to a counter like Dugtrio or Ferrothorn.

Magnezone can't take Focus Blasts (252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 330-390 (113.79 - 134.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO).

Jolteon can't switch into a Hurricane (Hurricane: 43.54 - 51.29%) and can get trapped by Duggy or walled by Ferrothorn.

Rotom-W is probably the closest thing to a counter you can find. It can take Hurricanes like a champ, but without reliable recovery (Pain Split is iffy at times) and hazards, Tornadus-T often outlives Rotom.

Weavile can't switch in at all, but it can ko a fleeing Tornadus-T with Pursuit after SR damage (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 195-230 (65.21 - 76.92%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock).

Mamoswine can't switch in and, unlike Weavile, can't stop Tornadus-T from simply switching out and regaining health.

You're ignoring the fact the 95% of the time, Tornadus-T can simply switch out and outlive its "counters and checks". A Tornadus-T that is played intelligently and has proper team support is damn near impossible to take down without losing 2-3 Pokemon.

Aww, Ninja'd

[SJCrew]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

You are reaching. Specially defensive was around BEFORE Tornadus-T and is as viable as you want it to be. It countered the other Tornadus and Togekiss. But wait, it counters Scizor, Metagross, offensive Jirachi, and probably a half a dozen other pokemon I haven't thought of yet. Zapdos is perfectly viable in this damn Metagame and doesn't actually need to go full specially defensive to even beat Tornadus-T reliably.

Let me clear up this little misunderstanding. I was one of the few vouchers for specially defensive Zapdos back when it was viable in Gen 4. Now? It's garbage. Fails to switch in against almost every single relevant special attacker in Gen 5 OU, especially Drizzle boosted Hydro Pumps.

Specs Politoed's Hydro Pump vs 252/252+ Calm Zapdos: 75.3% - 89.1%

So alongside your specially defensive counter for Tornadus, you will need another one for Politoed. Keep in mind you are still wide open to Thundurus-T and Terrakion.

I will wash my hands of this argument.

[AfroThunderRule]

I don't understand how Jirachi "can't do anything" to Tornadus-T

Body Slam, Thunder, Ice Punch, Thunder Wave are some viable moves that can cripple Tornadus-T and Jirachi does have some things to deal with stuff like Ferrothorn and Dugtrio as Dugtrio will not appreciate an incoming Body Slam or Ferrothorn will not like having to deal with a SubCM Jirachi.

But if we want to be really anal about this then anything with U-Turn doesn't have a hard counter as you can always switch out on the switch.

[SJCrew]

On the same vein, here is the list of Pokemon with U-turn, Regenerator, and the same threatening offensive capacity as Tornadus-T:

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat AfroThunderRule

anything with U-Turn doesn't have a hard counter as you can always switch out on the switch.

People were trying to use this same argument with Genesect, claiming that "oh I guess we better ban anything with U-Turn then because it's obviously broken!" No, it's just the extremely fast stuff with broken abilities, powerful STAB moves, and excellent coverage ALONG WITH U-TURN that are broken (read: Genesect and Tornadus-T), not every single U-Turn user. Scizor is good. Scizor has U-Turn. Scizor is not broken, for a plethora of reasons including, but not limited to, its pitiful Speed and disappointing coverage. It also can't Taunt and wear down its #1 counter, Skarmory, whereas Torn-T CAN Taunt and wear down Skarm's specially defensive counterpart, Chansey / Blissey. Regenerator is nice, too.

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

On the same vein, here is the list of Pokemon with U-turn, Regenerator, and the same threatening offensive capacity as Tornadus-T:

heh

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayland

None of the Pokemon you listed are a hard counter to Tornadus-T.

Jirachi can take a Hurricane, but it can't really do anything back because Tornadus-T can U-Turn to a counter like Dugtrio or Ferrothorn.

Magnezone can't take Focus Blasts (252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 330-390 (113.79 - 134.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO).

Jolteon can't switch into a Hurricane (Hurricane: 43.54 - 51.29%) and can get trapped by Duggy or walled by Ferrothorn.

Rotom-W is probably the closest thing to a counter you can find. It can take Hurricanes like a champ, but without reliable recovery (Pain Split is iffy at times) and hazards, Tornadus-T often outlives Rotom.

Weavile can't switch in at all, but it can ko a fleeing Tornadus-T with Pursuit after SR damage (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 195-230 (65.21 - 76.92%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock).

Mamoswine can't switch in and, unlike Weavile, can't stop Tornadus-T from simply switching out and regaining health.

You're ignoring the fact the 95% of the time, Tornadus-T can simply switch out and outlive its "counters and checks". A Tornadus-T that is played intelligently and has proper team support is damn near impossible to take down without losing 2-3 Pokemon.

Aww, Ninja'd

Nothing RL said was false....

jirachi- Body slam on the switch. Now you have a paralyzed ferrothorn or dugtrio. Switch to a solid pokemon or your weather maker. COUNTER and CHECK

magnezone - like RL said I cant see it beating magnezone with some bulk. I haven't seen anyone using focus blast either. I wouldnt rely on torn-t getting through it knowing focus blast is less accurate than stone edge... It can u-turn but then what comes in? Lets say dugtrio is dead... something takes a thunderbolt and gets subbed on. All teams aren't the same. COUNTER and CHECK

jolteon- Beats it one on one late game so I will call this a check. Takes a hurricane also. probably not a good team player but it beats it. Especially outside of weather. COUNTER and CHECK


Rotom-w- It is slow so it would get u turned on but I have t-wave or will-o-wisp. waiting in the wings on the incoming pokemon. Then I switch out to one of my own strong mons depending on what my team is. If it u-turns first then i took some damage. Normally most rain teams will have ferro and I can switch my counter in for that. It can also beat it one on one. COUNTER and CHECK

weavile- It can beat it one on one obviously. Cant take any of its attacks. CHECK

mamoswine- Can beat it one on one. I would never switch in on it. CHECK

[Rayland]

Originally Posted by Fat AfroThunderRule

I don't understand how Jirachi "can't do anything" to Tornadus-T

Body Slam, Thunder, Ice Punch, Thunder Wave are some viable moves that can cripple Tornadus-T and Jirachi does have some things to deal with stuff like Ferrothorn and Dugtrio as Dugtrio will not appreciate an incoming Body Slam or Ferrothorn will not like having to deal with a SubCM Jirachi.

But if we want to be really anal about this then anything with U-Turn doesn't have a hard counter as you can always switch out on the switch.

It's not just that it has U-Turn, but U-Turn + Regenerator.

Also, Jirachi doesn't pose a really big threat to Tornadus-T. The Body Slam + Iron Head set doesn't want to face Ferrothorn and the Sub CM set can't switch into a Focus Blast that well (252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 152-179 (37.62 - 44.3%) -- 3.91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes).

As I said earlier, A Tornadus-T played intelligently that also has proper team support is damn near impossible to take down without losing too many Pokemon.

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Nothing RL said was false....

jirachi- Body slam on the switch. Now you have a paralyzed ferrothorn or dugtrio. Switch to a solid pokemon or your weather maker. COUNTER and CHECK

Ferrothorn doesn't give a frick about being paralyzed. Also, Jirachi took some damage (Hurricane + Iron Barbs) and can't keep switching in. Tornadus-T can easily outlive it.

magnezone - like RL said I cant see it beating magnezone with some bulk. I haven't seen anyone using focus blast either. I wouldnt rely on torn-t getting through it knowing focus blast is less accurate than stone edge... It can u-turn but then what comes in? Lets say dugtrio is dead... something takes a thunderbolt and gets subbed on. All teams aren't the same. COUNTER and CHECK

Magnezone still can't switch in or take a Focus Blast to the face. The only set that Mangezone has that can take a FB is the dual screener set. And it STILL can't switch in ( 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Magnezone: 255-302 (74.12 - 87.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

jolteon- Beats it one on one late game so I will call this a check. Takes a hurricane also. probably not a good team player but it beats it. Especially outside of weather. COUNTER and CHECK

Jolteon can only take ONE Hurricane and can't punish Tornadus-T for switching out. Sure it beats him one on one, but that doesn't make Jolteon a counter.

Rotom-w- It is slow so it would get u turned on but I have t-wave or will-o-wisp. waiting in the wings on the incoming pokemon. Then I switch out to one of my own strong mons depending on what my team is. If it u-turns first then i took some damage. Normally most rain teams will have ferro and I can switch my counter in for that. It can also beat it one on one. COUNTER and CHECK

In your situation, Tornadus-T has yet to take any damage, while you took a Hurricane and potentially SR damage. Tornadus-T outlives your counter.

weavile- It can beat it one on one obviously. Cant take any of its attacks. CHECK

I'll give you that one.

mamoswine- Can beat it one on one. I would never switch in on it. CHECK

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 458-541 (126.51 - 149.44%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Hurricane: 94.75 - 112.15%
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 226-268 (75.58 - 89.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tornadus-T wins one on one.

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayland

It's not just that it has U-Turn, but U-Turn + Regenerator.

Also, Jirachi doesn't pose a really big threat to Tornadus-T. The Body Slam + Iron Head set doesn't want to face Ferrothorn and the Sub CM set can't switch into a Focus Blast that well (252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 152-179 (37.62 - 44.3%) -- 3.91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes).

As I said earlier, A Tornadus-T played intelligently that also has proper team support is damn near impossible to take down without losing too many Pokemon.

No one is spamming focus blast and focus blast does pittance even without SpD investment so what is the point? Jirachi is a counter to torn-t.

[False Sense]

Ah, nothing like a suspect test to bring people together on Christmas and spark heated debate.

About the suspects in question:

Tornadus-T: I can understand why people claim this is broken. On top of it's very powerful Hurricanes, it gets great coverage with Superpower/Focus Blast, AND can U-Turn out of any situation and regain health for it. This makes it the only pokemon weak to Stealth Rock to not actually be hurt by it overall. Also (surprised this hasn't been touched upon) it really only NEEDS the above three moves; it can run any other move in the last slot. I personally think it makes an amazing Taunt user, but it can also set up it's own Rain Dance to turn the tides in it's favor. Also, it just bulky enough to take super effective priority (Ice Shard) and retaliate. So at least for now, because of it's ability to be a hard to handle threat that can escape any situation, I think perhaps it should go.

Keldeo: ......why? I've heard quite a bit of complaints about Tornadus-T before, but never Keldeo. I think the reason for that being that Keldeo is much easier to handle, especially compared to Tornadus-T. Lets take a look at hard counters for Tornadus-T. The most common are Rotom-W and Jirachi, with Zapdos appearing occasionally. Most anything else is at risk of being overpowered by its attacks. Keldeo, on the other hand, has a fair share of things that can give it headaches: Latios, Latias, Starmie and Alakazam can all outspeed and hit it with Pyshock. (Alakazam can't really switch in, but it can revenge kill.) Other pokemon like Celebi, Amoongus, Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Gastrodon, and Slowking (If you want to use it) can take it's attacks quite nicely and do something to it in return. It's got pretty limited coverage, which really only worsens when choiced, as even in Rain there are things that can take a Hydro Pump. (Especially those with Water Absorb/Storm Drain, and not mentioning that Hydro Pump can miss.) I understand that it's very powerful, but there are plenty of viable ways to handle it. I don't think it needs to be banned at all.

[Danilo]

Damn RaikouLover

As you said, HARD COUNTER. It switches in.. threatens a OHKO on Tornadus-T and forces it out. It's not my fault if you can't keep your Tornadus-T counter around long enough, sorry.

Rotom-W is 3HKO'd by Specs Hurricane after SR... How is that a hard counter at all? It's not the Rotom-W user's fault that they can't keep it alive when Rotom-W has shit recovery. It's not like your playing poorly and that's why your hard counter is not healthy enough to check Torn-T.

Yeah well Jolteon is OU and threatens Tornadus-T. Hell, it's faster making Tornadus-T a liability on the OPPOSING team. It can switch into every move and threatens it out. That is a counter. You can't use a counter's counter as an argument for Uber status. "Well Garchomp is Uber because you need Skarmory / Bronzong to avoid something dying and everyone who runs Garchomp runs a Heatran!" Very very poor logic, poor argument.

What... Because Pokemon A is faster than Pokemon B on your opponent's team than that Pokemon is now a liability? Not only is Pokemon B 100 times more viable, valuable, and dominant than Pokemon B, but Pokemon A is 2HKO'd by Pokemon B's move after Stealth Rock! How can something be listed as a counter when it losses half of its health by switching into half of Pokemon B's moves??? A check surely. A mediocre and nearly unusable check in this case.

Focus Blast is a 70% accurate move. I said a healthy Magnezone is a check because it is.. Hurricane + Superpower doesn't kill any that invest in Bulk and Focus Blast has a 70% chance of missing, meaning there is a decent chance Tornadus-T will use. Most users won't take that risk unless they have to.

So your hard counter losses 70% of the time to Torn-T with Focus Blast(assuming all F Blast Torn-t are Specs)?

Although checks and counters don't seem to be explicitly defined I think most competent users can agree that something that if Pokemon A is 2HKO'd by Pokemon B then it's not a hard counter as you seem to have expressed in your post, Raikoulover.

[Stone RG]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

Hax is a great argument for Ubers, lemme tell you. Let's ban Jirachi for Body Slam. Wish Jirachi stops any fuckshit Tornadus-T does cold. HARD COUNTER.



As you said, HARD COUNTER. It switches in.. threatens a OHKO on Tornadus-T and forces it out. It's not my fault if you can't keep your Tornadus-T counter around long enough, sorry.




Yeah well Jolteon is OU and threatens Tornadus-T. Hell, it's faster making Tornadus-T a liability on the OPPOSING team. It can switch into every move and threatens it out. That is a counter. You can't use a counter's counter as an argument for Uber status. "Well Garchomp is Uber because you need Skarmory / Bronzong to avoid something dying and everyone who runs Garchomp runs a Heatran!" Very very poor logic, poor argument.



Focus Blast is a 70% accurate move. I said a healthy Magnezone is a check because it is.. Hurricane + Superpower doesn't kill any that invest in Bulk and Focus Blast has a 70% chance of missing, meaning there is a decent chance Tornadus-T will use. Most users won't take that risk unless they have to.



Weavile is a check. A check threatens a OHKO. Weavile can OHKO and even Pursuit Tornadus-T (which does a health chunk especially after the SR hit coming back in). Weavile is faster, and is perfectly viable in OU. It is not my fault that you don't like Weavile. Great argument yet again.



Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard does about 70%. Yep, terrible check. -_-



How about you learn the difference between a check and a counter before attacking a competent user. Lurk more, buddy.

Ohh, and nice response to my piece about Choice Scarfers. Keldeo, Garchomp, Terrakion.. they all outspeed and OHKO Tornadus-T effortlessly. Yet we are seriously considering banning this thing? LOL

The only thing you got right was the jirachi argument, because i dont think honestly lavos was being serious with ''can and has been confusion haxed to death'', every counter can be haxed and lose in a 1v1 to the poke its supposed to counter.

Now every other Torn T counter you mentioned is flat out wrong, its not that we, as players, cannot maintain our counter healthy, but Big bird prevents this with every damn of its so-called ''counters'' bar SpD jirachi. Rotom lacks reliable recovery and gets hard countered by ferrothorn, and when the hell have you seen a rain team without ferro? I dont think more than 1/20. Jolteon cant take jack shit torn throws at it, weavile has a very small (yet existent) niche in OU, but guess what? you can switch, not even CB pursuit is KOing after rocks. Mamo cannot switch at all into torn, and LO ice shard isnt OHKOing after rocks.

Oh and buddy, if you need a scarfer to offensively check this thing, we have a problem. Not to mention none of those scarfers can switch into big bird.

[Curtains]

Guys, If you are relying on focus blast hitting twice in a row to be the reason why a pokemon should be uber.. good luck to you because logically that makes no sense to anyone.

[Curtains]

Ferrothorn doesn't give a frick about being paralyzed. Also, Jirachi took some damage (Hurricane + Iron Barbs) and can't keep switching in. Tornadus-T can easily outlive it.

Dont care. it is paralyzed and i can wish/put up SR and switch to an intresting pokemon like landorus-T or ninetales. Threat gone.

Magnezone still can't switch in or take a Focus Blast to the face. The only set that Mangezone has that can take a FB is the dual screener set. And it STILL can't switch in ( 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Magnezone: 255-302 (74.12 - 87.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Once again. No one is spamming focus blast. it missing has the same odds of you getting paralyzed during a turn while paralyzed. I will take my chances.

Jolteon can only take ONE Hurricane and can't punish Tornadus-T for switching out. Sure it beats him one on one, but that doesn't make Jolteon a counter.

No rain up. Hurricane has 30% less accuracy. I thought this wasn't a discussion about drizzle? All of these things are mute if there is no rain up.

In your situation, Tornadus-T has yet to take any damage, while you took a Hurricane and potentially SR damage. Tornadus-T outlives your counter.

I still made it switch out. I have regained the momentum. This isn't tic tac toe.

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 458-541 (126.51 - 149.44%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Hurricane: 94.75 - 112.15%
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 226-268 (75.58 - 89.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tornadus-T wins one on one.

good luck hitting focus blast. and don't forget i have a sash waiting for you.

[superbadd]

I think that's a valid point to mention. We should treat a Tornadus-t scenario as if rain isn't up. Seeing as how the suspect has nothing to do with drizzle it makes sense. It would allow people to look at Tornadus more objectively. Between poor accuracy moves and ones with dire side affects, I think Tornads-t is more than manageable. Without support, is Tornadus-t broken alone? Hell no. Dugtrio and drizzle shouldn't be factored in when examining it.

[Rayland]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Dont care. it is paralyzed and i can wish/put up SR and switch to an intresting pokemon like landorus-T or ninetales. Threat gone.

Now Ferrothorn is just setting up spikes making it harder for you to come back in. You still lose in the situation.

Once again. No one is spamming focus blast. it missing has the same odds of you getting paralyzed during a turn while paralyzed. I will take my chances.

So pretty much, your hard counter loses 70% of the time. Great counter.

No rain up. Hurricane has 30% less accuracy. I thought this wasn't a discussion about drizzle? All of these things are mute if there is no rain up.

Of course this is in the rain! Even though we aren't talking about Drizzle, we can't ignore the effects it has on both Tornadus-T and Keldeo. Your argument is moot.

I still made it switch out. I have regained the momentum. This isn't tic tac toe.

You regained the momentum, but it's going to cost you a Pokemon because Rotom can't keep switching in.

good luck hitting focus blast. and don't forget i have a sash waiting for you.

That's assuming you have sash and that it's still intact by the point where a match is one on one. Also, you are weaker now because you lack life orb. 252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 174-206 (58.19 - 68.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

There are Pokemon that can force Tornadus-T out. There are others that can punish it for switching out. But there are no Pokemon that can do both. All of the counter that have been proposed will either fail to take Tornadus-T out or become damaged enough that they can't continue to wall the rest of the team for the match.

Most Tornadus-T's have Drizzle support for spamming Hurricane. I don't see how you can continue with the match after your rain counter has either been defeated or crippled.

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

I think that's a valid point to mention. We should treat a Tornadus-t scenario as if rain isn't up. Seeing as how the suspect has nothing to do with drizzle it makes sense. It would allow people to look at Tornadus more objectively. Between poor accuracy moves and ones with dire side affects, I think Tornads-t is more than manageable. Without support, is Tornadus-t broken alone? Hell no. Dugtrio and drizzle shouldn't be factored in when examining it.

It doesn't work like that. Otherwise Pokemon like Excadrill, Blaziken, Thundurus, and Manaphy wouldn't have been banned, because they weren't broken without they support that they had. You can't ignore certain factors about a Pokemon to make it seem more tame.

[RaikouLover]

Ok, I am only going to say this once so let me make myself clear!

A COUNTER can switch into a pokemon, and pose an immediate threat the the pokemon it switches into. A CHECK can remove the said pokemon but may not be able to safely switch in.

Jirachi counters Tornadus-T, it threatens Body Slam paralysis which shits on Tornadus-T's life. Jirachi can switch into any of Tornadus-T's moves or move combos. Jirach is what we call a HARD COUNTER due to reliable recovery.

Rotom-W counters Tornadus-T. It threatens the OHKO with Thunderbolt / Volt Switch. You are sitting here telling me that Rotom-W doesn't counter Tornadus-T because Rotom wash is 3HKOed by Specs Hurricane. Guess what, Tornadus-T is OHKOed by electric attack. That makes Rotom-W a counter. It is not my fault, or the fault of anyone on the voting "committee" that a skilled Torandus-T user can outlast a Rotom-W. Guess what, it works both ways. However, Rotom-W is a counter because it switches in and threatens a OHKO. Case point. END OF DISCUSSION.

Jolteon counters Tornadus-T. It threatens a OHKO with Thunderbolt / Volt Switch. It doesn't matter if it only switches into Hurricane once. It lives any of Tornadus-T's attacks and OHKOs in return. That is a counter. Again, the rest is not my problem. Jolteon is a counter. Deal with it.

Zapdos counters Tornadus-T. It threatens a OHKO with Thunderbolt. It switches into anything Tornadus-T has and has reliable recovery to boot. It can do this multiple times a match. Zapdos is a HARD COUNTER. It is not my problem if you don't want to use Zapdos. The truth is, Zapdos has the bulk and typing to wall a helluva lot more than just Tornadus-T so don't bitch at me because you refuse to use it.

Thundurus-T counters Tornadus-T when equipped with a Choice Scarf. It threatens a OHKO with Thunderbolt / Volt Switch / Thunder. It can switch into any one of Tornadus-T's moves.

Metagross (shaky) counters Tornadus-T. It counters if you run it on Rain. It can switch into Tornadus-T, and threatens a good amount of damage with Pursuit or just general high power Meteor Mash. Not my problem if you don't like Metagross.

Magnezone checks Tornadus-T. It can live any one of Tornadus-T's common attacks and threatens a OHKO with Thunderbolt. Again, not my problem if you don't like Magnezone.

Weavile checks Tornadus-T. It can't switch in, but threatens a OHKO with Ice Punch. It also can Pursuit a fleeing Tornadus-T for a crap ton of damage. Not my problem if you don't like Weavile.

Mamoswine checks Tornadus-T. It can't switch in, but it threatens a large chunk of damage with Ice Shard. After SR, Ice Shard can OHKO. Not my problem if you don't like Mamoswine.

Choice Scarf Keldeo / Garchomp / Terrakion checks Tornadus-T. It can't switch in, but it threatens a OHKO with the appropriate move. The rest is just not my problem.

Ninetales checks Tornadus-T. It can switch into all of it's moves, removes rain making Hurricane 50% accurate, and can retaliate for heavy damage. Again, not my problem if you don't like sun.


Quit your bitching and move on. Yes, Tornadus-T is good but it doesn't even work without Drizzle. Tornadus-T against a Sun / Sand team? Doesn't work nearly as well. I love how no one brings that up.

[Bestow5000]

Keep Keldeo and ban Tornadus-T.
Personally the reason why I find Tornadus-T more broken is because of his infamous Regenerator. Then we got his massive speed and decent Sp. attack stats and with rain and Hurricane, he'll just dish out way too much damage and he doesn't also have to be locked into one move. Getting weak? U-Turn saves lifes of that annoying bird.

But as for Keldeo, while that thing has a good natural Sp. def bulk and deadly when Scarfed or Specs under the rain, he still just isn't as broken as Tornadus-T... He's just quite good.

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayland

It's not just that it has U-Turn, but U-Turn + Regenerator.

Also, Jirachi doesn't pose a really big threat to Tornadus-T. The Body Slam + Iron Head set doesn't want to face Ferrothorn and the Sub CM set can't switch into a Focus Blast that well (252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 152-179 (37.62 - 44.3%) -- 3.91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes).

As I said earlier, A Tornadus-T played intelligently that also has proper team support is damn near impossible to take down without losing too many Pokemon.

Originally Posted by Fat Rayland

There are Pokemon that can force Tornadus-T out. There are others that can punish it for switching out. But there are no Pokemon that can do both. All of the counter that have been proposed will either fail to take Tornadus-T out or become damaged enough that they can't continue to wall the rest of the team for the match.

Most Tornadus-T's have Drizzle support for spamming Hurricane. I don't see how you can continue with the match after your rain counter has either been defeated or crippled.

The problem is While we are talking about torn-t and all the ruckus it can do under rain we are holding conditional that politoed and it's rain is still alive. If it is so hard to get politoed dead then maybe that is the root of the problem. The fact is without drizzle torn-t is a UU pokemon at best. UU =/= uber if I last checked.