np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[ala]

Check my new calcs I edited in. I accidentally put in Tornadus-I instead of T. If it doesn't KO with Gyro Ball Ferro loses, and if it has incurred any damage beforehand it also loses. It literally needs to be at max health with 252 HP / 252+ Sp.def to have a chance of living. Definitely not a hard counter.

[dragonuser]

I'm Ryuzenpaku.

[ginganinja]

I also saw some people say that the combo of Torn-T + Ferro in rain is almost impossible to deal with and i have to say that i really disagree. SubCM Jirachi sets up on this combo easily, Zapdos has two really handy moves in its arsenal, Heat Wave and Volt Switch, CB Scizor can OHKO both with the right prediction, and even SpD Heatran can trouble them with good prediction.

I think you are misinterpreting what people are saying. The combo is NOT unbreakable, but I think what people are meaning is that Ferrothorn sets up Spikes / SR which in turn hamper the checks / counters for Tornadus. Ferrothorn also manages to handle Rotom-W, the most common check to Tornadus-T, provided it avoids the Will-o-wisp.

You are correct that Jirachi can set up a Sub and beat both but its not as simple as this, Say Tornadus is in vs something such as Celebi, and Hurricanes, you bring in Jirachi, take damage from SR, possible damage from Spikes, and risk a 30% chance of confusion. Regardless, Tornadus then U-Turns, to your Sub CM Jirachi check / counter, heals back to full health via Regen, and comes back in later to repeat, until Jirachi goes down. Scizor might be able to beat both with prediction, but it is a very risky for Scizor since Hurricane deals tremendous damage to Scizor, if you mispredict and Superpower Tornadus, you lose Scizor. The senario is in favour of the Tornadus user whereas the pressure is on the Scizor user, who has to chance the 50/50 every single time, while Tornadus can switch out, heal any residual damage, scout what you do and come in later. Zapdos is a good check / counter but again, is Stealth Rock weak and dislikes Hurricane + SR followed by U-Turn, together they do too much to Zapdos forcing it to Roost, and the Tornadus user gets a free switch time and time again to whatever it wants, it is risk free. Heatran I will not really go into here as it fears Superpower / Focus Blast and so isn't really the best Tornadus check availble.

The purpose of this post is not to say Tornadus is uncounterable, the problem, is that the Tornadus-T user has more freedom to act, Regen means that in 1 v 1 matchups, Tornadus can switch in, nuke something, switch out healing off all damage and carry for the rest of the match, slowly wearing down its counters / checks, paving the way for a sweep. Its bulk isn't even that bad either, as its quite capable of surviving super effective hits when it needs too. Heck, I lost a battle because apparently a STAB Volt Switch isn't enough to kill the blasted thing allowing it to switch out and regen heal, eventually winning it the battle.

Deo-D, Weavile, Garchomp, Breloom, Kingdra, and Gengar

As you can see i didn't take extreme measures to stop Torn-T with my offensive team

Dude you have a fucking Kingdra + Weavile + SR + Spinblocker (which is sashed and has T-Bolt) + Breloom (for Ferro / Toed). Thats a strong matchup vs any torn team if I ever saw one lol so yea, id say you took extreme measures vs Torn especially as you added Kingdra + Weavile to check it lol.

I don't care if you claim Kingdra and Weavile were for something else, you took extreme measures. Period.

[Rayland]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Well I went for a superpower. I thought It would KO. Mark that one up as another hard counter for tornadus-t.

What are you talking about? Ferrothorn can at best Revenge kill Tornadus-T, and that's only if you are brave enough to keep your Tornadus-T in on a full health Ferrothorn.

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Better but you didn't factor in protect at all. It all depends what the opponent is running. On my teams ferrothorn isn't a first switch in to tornadus-t anyway. But with a specially defensive spread it could survive after protect and hit back with gyro ball for a near KO (probably after SR and recoil damage)

You need to stop posting for a while. Max specially defensive Ferrothorn still can't switch into Tornadus-T. You take a Hurricane on the switch, Protect, and then get finished off with a Focus Blast. OR they can just freaking switch out on the turn you use protect. You lose either way.

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

This is an overstatement. Many offensive and defensive Pokemon can live a hit from Torn-T and OHKO or cripple back. Take for example the offensive team i have been using recently: Deo-D, Weavile, Garchomp, Breloom, Kingdra, and Gengar. Deo-D survives a hit and sets-up hazards or paralyzes Torn-T with T-Wave (it has Mental Herb so Taunt doesn't work), rendering it useless, Weavile outspeeds and OHKOs or does major damage and possibly kills if Torn-T switches out with Pursuit, Breloom deals 65% damage min with a +2 Fight Gem Mach Punch, meaning that at worst LO Torn-T will die after killing Breloom and at best Breloom will OHKO after SR, Garchomp can usually take a hit from both the Specs and LO variants if only SR is up and then OHKO back, Kingdra outspeeds and OHKOes, and Gengar OHKOes with Tbolt after SR and can take a hit if its Sash is intact (which happens quite often). As you can see i didn't take extreme measures to stop Torn-T with my offensive team, and in fact i don't even have any check to it, only faster Pokemon that OHKO, priority, and slower Pokemon that can take a hit and OHKO. And for anyone ready to say that Weavile is on my team only for Torn-T i will advise him to think again. Weavile's main job on the team is to revenge kill dragons, and trap and kill Starmie, preventing it from spinning. Revenge killing Torn-T was just an added bonus that my team could do without. Yeah it is true that my team has Kingdra, which means that i have an advantage over rain teams, but i didn't put Kingdra in the team to deal with Torn-T, i did so because the special RD set can clean offensive teams very good as well as pressuring a lot rain teams which are very popular.

I also saw some people say that the combo of Torn-T + Ferro in rain is almost impossible to deal with and i have to say that i really disagree. SubCM Jirachi sets up on this combo easily, Zapdos has two really handy moves in its arsenal, Heat Wave and Volt Switch, CB Scizor can OHKO both with the right prediction, and even SpD Heatran can trouble them with good prediction.

I am not saying that Torn-T is clearly not broken, as i am not even sure myself if it is or not, but i lean towards not banning it. However, with good reasoning i could definitely be convinced that it deserves to be banned, as i have had trouble facing it a few times, but overall i felt it was manageable. But really people should think more before posting, as many arguments in this thread are very bad and do nothing to help prove whether Torn-T is broken in OU or not. People should stop bitching and start finding ways, if they haven't already, to deal with Torn-T.

You took some pretty extreme measures to fight against rain and dragons. I noticed because your team is extremely weak to Venusaur in sun (Weavile's Ice shard won't OHKO). But I digress. While you do have checks for Tornadus-T, you have nothing to switch into a Hurricane. Everything on your team is 2HKO'd at worst. If Weavile dies, you have a much harder time revenging it. If Gengar dies, there is nothing to stop the opponent from rapid spinning your hazards away, making it easier for Tornadus-T to clean up.

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayland

What are you talking about? Ferrothorn can at best Revenge kill Tornadus-T, and that's only if you are brave enough to keep your Tornadus-T in on a full health Ferrothorn.



You need to stop posting for a while. Max specially defensive Ferrothorn still can't switch into Tornadus-T. You take a Hurricane on the switch, Protect, and then get finished off with a Focus Blast. OR they can just freaking switch out on the turn you use protect. You lose either way.

Now I have to stop posting.... You don't agree with me so I have to stop posting huh... Even when you have pro torn-t guys coming in here to say that thunder is a weaker move than hurricane when they are the same damn move stat wise. You got guys coming in here saying torn-t can sweep entire teams. Yes Ferrothorn is a good counter in rain, in clear skies and in the sun with the proper team support. I dont care what the stats or damage calcs say when all of it is worthless outside of rain. In rain it can take a hurricane protect then you have to pray for a focus blast to hit. You guys make focus blast seem like the greatest move ever. Which uber had to rely on focus blast to be broken? None. Which uber had to rely on rain to be broken? kyogre? He has drizzle... See whats going on here?

[Pocket]

Tornadus-T has 3 attributes going for it - Regenerator, STAB Hurricane, and 121 base Speed.

Regenerator is cool until you realize that the awesome 33% recovery is stunted by its SR weakness and LO recoil. You wont see Tornadus-T magically healing itself upon switching out the way Tangrowth and Slobro might. Regenerator is a major boon for a SR-weak mon, but in a similar vein its restorative powers are restricted by SR weakness and LO recoil - bringing down Tornadus-T is not a difficult feat. Tornadus-T is essentially coming into the field with 75% health or less. It's much like Dragonite or Volcarona; get the rocks up fast and their infamous durability goes down a notch or more.

STAB Hurricane is certainly powerful, but we're prepared for them. We had to be prepared for Hurricanes since the inception of BW, otherwise our teams would easily be decimated by Tornadus-I's Hurricane coming from a 125 base SpA. If we can tank Hurricanes from Incarnate, and we can very damn well take the notably weaker Hurricanes from its Therian forme.

So the first two attributes do not ascribe to the suspect status of Tornadus-T, as explained above. What about its base 121 Speed? Now this is where some justification lies. During BW1, the Incarnate forme was easily checked by Starmie, Alakazam, Scarf Tar, and even Dugtrio! However these predators now become prey to the faster Tornadus-T. Truly, base 121 Speed breaks the Speed tier of OU?!

Not quite. Yes, base 121 Speed is a large advantage of Tornadus-T that has given it the upper edge against many OU threats. However, we're prepared for much faster and dangerous threats, such as Chlorophyll Venusaur, Scarf Mence, Scarf KELDEO, RP Landorus, SubSalac Terrakion, and even DDNite. Your team must have Pokemon to deal with such threats that would exceed Tornadus-T's Speed, so checking Tornadus-T with a Scarfer, stronger priority, or through counters should not be a foreign concept for competent players.

Tornadus-T is simply a faster and hardier and less powerful Tornadus, a Pokemon that has now been residing in UU for quite some time now. OU is perfectly adapted for Tornadus-T, imo. Prevalent OU mons like Rotom-W and Jirachi hard walls it, and there's no shortage in checks in the forms of faster Pokemon, strong priority not named Mach Punch, and Pokemon bulky enough to survive a Hurricane / Superpower (ie Heatran, Ferrothorn, Kyurem-B, Politoed, Garchomp lol etc).

----------------------------

I've read some people likening Tornadus-T to the recently banned Genesect. Tornadus-T and Genesect are both powerful threats with a fast U-turn.

The similarity ends there.

Genesect has more going for it. It is not a one-trick pony like Tornadus-T. You see a Tornadus-T and you pretty much know that you'll be dealing with a special offense threat capped at 375 base Speed. However you never know with clear certainty of the identity of Genesect. It may be the more common Scarfer with 440+ Speed that plagues slower dragons and Psychic-types - or it may be an offensive EB pivot that is capped at 326 Speed but can switch moves and gain surprise kills. Even more, Genesect may be the devastating Rock Polish Sweeper that can sweep in a moment's notice once that one Genesect counter is removed.

Genesect is much harder to pin down than Tornadus-T, being only nominally vulnerable to SR, resilient to most priority moves, and possessing the amazing resistances of Steel-types. Genesect has far fewer checks and counters, unlike Tornadus-T, and those few checks and counters are much easily disposed of than those of the Therian.

Not to mention Genesect's U-turn actually HURTS, given its 120 base Attack plus STAB and possibly a Download Attack boost. This pales in comparison to Tornadus-T's puny non-STAB U-turn coming off from a 100 base Atk - a pittance indeed. You can afford to spam U-turn with Genesect and be rest assured that you're wearing down the opponent fast, but the same thing cannot be said about Tornadus-T, who will be taking LO recoil as it U-turns out, and heavy SR damage as it comes back in. If the Tornadus-T player uses U-turn only for the opponent to keep his Pokemon (say a Terrakion) in, Tornadus-T player will be left in an awkward position. If the opponent finishes off a Terrakion (which would survive a Hurricane / Superpower at full-health lol), then the opponent can simply bring in their Tornadus-T's check / counter and force Torn-T player in the defensive. Nothing here screams Torn-T player having a drastic advantage over the opponent. Tornadus-T cannot afford to brainlessly spam U-turn / Hurricane the way Genesect can spam U-turn and get away with it.

Not to mention Genesect works in ANY PLAYSTYLE, be it Rain, Sun, Sand, or weatherless. No matter how dominant Rain is in the current meta, Tornadus-T will never be as omnipotently useful as Genesect.

Let's stop treating Tornadus-T like Genesect, and treat it more as a slightly better Tornadus-I, because that's a much more accurate representation of this Pokemon.

In the end, Tornadus-T is not an Uber - its Speed, STAB Hurricane, Regenerator, and U-turn are attributes that are perfectly manageable in OU. RP Landorus, Terrakion, the copious number of dragons, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo are much more threatening threats than Tornadus-T.

[alexwolf]

@ginganinja

I only mentioned Pokemon that can deal with the Torn-T + Ferro combo well. If you add more partners into the mix, then of 'course the Pokemon i mentioned (Zapdos, Jirachi, Scizor, etc) will have trouble taking them on, but fortunately they also have partners. So the point is that Ferro + Torn-T can and will be set-up on by SubCM Jirachi eventually, given that the SubCM Jirachi user is not an idiot and doesn't mindlessly bring Jirachi into Torn-T. Jirachi can easily start setting up after Torn-T kills something, and as you know many rain teams have problems facing SubCM Jirachi.

Finally i will say it once more. I didn't take extreme measures against Torn-T. Weavile was added to trap and kil Starmie, Latios, Latias, and Gengar, and revenge kill Dragons, while Kingdra was added to help me get past through both offensive teams, and rain teams in general. Even if Torn-T wasn't around my team would look exactly the same. So no extreme measures taken FOR Torn-T. If you were accusing me of taking extreme measures against Rain teams then this would be a different story.

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Dude you have a fucking Kingdra + Weavile + SR + Spinblocker (which is sashed and has T-Bolt) + Breloom (for Ferro / Toed). Thats a strong matchup vs any torn team if I ever saw one lol so yea, id say you took extreme measures vs Torn especially as you added Kingdra + Weavile to check it lol.

I don't care if you claim Kingdra and Weavile were for something else, you took extreme measures. Period.

No he didn't. Weavile is recommended on any Deoxys-D team and will stay there whether Tornadus-T is there or not. It is for Espeon, Xatu, Dragons, Starmie. Kingdra is there because Rain Dance Kingdra manhandles offense and pisses of any weather dependent pokemon because it CAN change the weather (or abuse perma rain). This team is a standard team type I've seen and makes no special provisions for Tornadus-T at all.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Tornadus-T has 3 attributes going for it - Regenerator, STAB Hurricane, and 121 base Speed.

Regenerator is cool until you realize that the awesome 33% recovery is stunted by its SR weakness and LO recoil. You wont see Tornadus-T magically healing itself upon switching out the way Tangrowth and Slobro might. Regenerator is a major boon for a SR-weak mon, but in a similar vein its restorative powers are restricted by SR weakness and LO recoil - bringing down Tornadus-T is not a difficult feat. Tornadus-T is essentially coming into the field with 75% health or less. It's much like Dragonite or Volcarona; get the rocks up fast and their infamous durability goes down a notch or more.

STAB Hurricane is certainly powerful, but we're prepared for them. We had to be prepared for Hurricanes since the inception of BW, otherwise our teams would easily be decimated by Tornadus-I's Hurricane coming from a 125 base SpA. If we can tank Hurricanes from Incarnate, and we can very damn well take the notably weaker Hurricanes from its Therian forme.

So the first two attributes do not ascribe to the suspect status of Tornadus-T, as explained above. What about its base 121 Speed? Now this is where some justification lies. During BW1, the Incarnate forme was easily checked by Starmie, Alakazam, Scarf Tar, and even Dugtrio! However these predators now become prey to the faster Tornadus-T. Truly, base 121 Speed breaks the Speed tier of OU?!

Not quite. Yes, base 121 Speed is a large advantage of Tornadus-T that has given it the upper edge against many OU threats. However, we're prepared for much faster and dangerous threats, such as Chlorophyll Venusaur, Scarf Mence, Scarf KELDEO, RP Landorus, SubSalac Terrakion, and even DDNite. Your team must have Pokemon to deal with such threats that would exceed Tornadus-T's Speed, so checking Tornadus-T with a Scarfer, stronger priority, or through counters should not be a foreign concept for competent players.

Tornadus-T is simply a faster and hardier and less powerful Tornadus, a Pokemon that has now been residing in UU for quite some time now. OU is perfectly adapted for Tornadus-T, imo. Prevalent OU mons like Rotom-W and Jirachi hard walls it, and there's no shortage in checks in the forms of faster Pokemon, strong priority not named Mach Punch, and Pokemon bulky enough to survive a Hurricane / Superpower (ie Heatran, Ferrothorn, Kyurem-B, Politoed, Garchomp lol etc).

----------------------------

I've read some people likening Tornadus-T to the recently banned Genesect. Tornadus-T and Genesect are both powerful threats with a fast U-turn.

The similarity ends there.

Genesect has more going for it. It is not a one-trick pony like Tornadus-T. You see a Tornadus-T and you pretty much know that you'll be dealing with a special offense threat capped at 375 base Speed. However you never know with clear certainty of the identity of Genesect. It may be the more common Scarfer with 440+ Speed that plagues slower dragons and Psychic-types - or it may be an offensive EB pivot that is capped at 326 Speed but can switch moves and gain surprise kills. Even more, Genesect may be the devastating Rock Polish Sweeper that can sweep in a moment's notice once that one Genesect counter is removed.

Genesect is much harder to pin down than with Tornadus-T, being only nominally vulnerable to SR, resilient to most priority moves, and possessing the amazing resistances of Steel-types. Genesect has far fewer checks and counters, unlike Tornadus-T, and those few checks and counters are much easily disposed of than those of the Therian.

Not to mention Genesect's U-turn actually HURTS, given its 120 base Attack plus STAB and possibly a Download Attack boost. This pales in comparison to Tornadus-T's puny non-STAB U-turn coming off from a 100 base Atk - a pittance indeed. You can afford to spam U-turn with Genesect and be rest assured that you're wearing down the opponent fast, but the same thing cannot be said about Tornadus-T, who will be taking LO recoil as it U-turns out, and heavy SR damage as it comes back in. If the Tornadus-T player uses U-turn only for the opponent to keep his Pokemon (say a Terrakion) in, Tornadus-T player will be left in an awkward position. If the opponent finishes off a Terrakion (which would survive a Hurricane / Superpower at full-health lol), then the opponent can simply bring in their Tornadus-T's check / counter and force Torn-T player in the defensive. Nothing here screams Torn-T player having a drastic advantage over the opponent. Tornadus-T cant brainlessly spam U-turn / Hurricane the way Genesect can spam U-turn and get away with it.

Not to mention Genesect works in ANY PLAYSTYLE, be it Rain, Sun, Sand, or weatherless. No matter how dominant Rain is in the current meta, Tornadus-T will never be as omnipotently useful as Genesect.

Llet's stop treating Tornadus-T like Genesect, and treat it more as a slightly better Tornadus-I, because that's a much more accurate representation of this Pokemon.

In the end, Tornadus-T is not an Uber - its Speed, STAB Hurricane, Regenerator, and U-turn are attributes that are perfectly manageable in OU. RP Landorus, Terrakion, the copious number of dragons, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo are much more threatening threats than Tornadus-T.

The deal is, in BW1 rain wasnt the most popular weather. It was sand as far as i am concerned. Also Tornadus-I is easier to wear down since it doenst have regenerator. I do agree however that Tornadus-i is as much a threat as Tornadus-T if used in ou with drizzle politoed.

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

The deal is, in BW1 rain wasnt the most popular weather. It was sand as far as i am concerned. Also Tornadus-I is easier to wear down since it doenst have regenerator. I do agree however that Tornadus-i is as much a threat as Tornadus-T if used in ou with drizzle politoed.

So.. ban both? shit, if Tornadus-T leaves I'll just replace it with Tornadus-I. A little worse, but certainly a serviceable replacement. I'll just use my same Hurricane / Hammer Arm / Taunt (now priority) / U-turn just like Tornadus-T. Or I'll go with a slower stronger Specs and make it worse for Rotom-W to take hits, lmao (he now needs MORE SpDef)

Originally Posted by Fat Rayland

You took some pretty extreme measures to fight against rain and dragons. I noticed because your team is extremely weak to Venusaur in sun (Weavile's Ice shard won't OHKO). But I digress. While you do have checks for Tornadus-T, you have nothing to switch into a Hurricane. Everything on your team is 2HKO'd at worst. If Weavile dies, you have a much harder time revenging it. If Gengar dies, there is nothing to stop the opponent from rapid spinning your hazards away, making it easier for Tornadus-T to clean up.

If endless theorymon exists, what more can we do to keep ANYTHING in OU? If If If If If is your whole rebuttal to his team type.l

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I just found some cool stuff about Tornadus-T that makes choice specs more viable than life orb:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 150-178 (37.12 - 44.05%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 122-144 (40.26 - 47.52%) -- 5.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


So yeah even its counters can be defeated if you a choice specs.

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

I just found some cool stuff about Tornadus-T that makes choice specs more viable than life orb:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 150-178 (37.12 - 44.05%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 122-144 (40.26 - 47.52%) -- 5.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


So yeah even its counters can be defeated if you a choice specs.

You got to be kidding me. Specs hidden power ground? I wouldnt call that defeating anything if you are taking 3 moves to do it. Jirachi can body slam, thunder iron head, wish thunder then protect. This is not viable at all.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

You got to be kidding me. Specs hidden power ground? I wouldnt call that defeating anything if you are taking 3 moves to do it. Jirachi can body slam, thunder iron head, wish thunder then protect. This is not viable at all.

Last moveslot is filler. Hidden power ground deals around 74 or so damage to jirachi if it switchs and stays in. And it cant ohko you back. So yeah.

[Rayland]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Not to mention Genesect's U-turn actually HURTS, given its 120 base Attack plus STAB and possibly a Download Attack boost. This pales in comparison to Tornadus-T's puny non-STAB U-turn coming off from a 100 base Atk - a pittance indeed. You can afford to spam U-turn with Genesect and be rest assured that you're wearing down the opponent fast, but the same thing cannot be said about Tornadus-T, who will be taking LO recoil as it U-turns out, and heavy SR damage as it comes back in. If the Tornadus-T player uses U-turn only for the opponent to keep his Pokemon (say a Terrakion) in, Tornadus-T player will be left in an awkward position. If the opponent finishes off a Terrakion (which would survive a Hurricane / Superpower at full-health lol), then the opponent can simply bring in their Tornadus-T's check / counter and force Torn-T player in the defensive. Nothing here screams Torn-T player having a drastic advantage over the opponent. Tornadus-T cannot afford to brainlessly spam U-turn / Hurricane the way Genesect can spam U-turn and get away with it.

Not to mention Genesect works in ANY PLAYSTYLE, be it Rain, Sun, Sand, or weatherless. No matter how dominant Rain is in the current meta, Tornadus-T will never be as omnipotently useful as Genesect.

Let's stop treating Tornadus-T like Genesect, and treat it more as a slightly better Tornadus-I, because that's a much more accurate representation of this Pokemon.

In the end, Tornadus-T is not an Uber - its Speed, STAB Hurricane, Regenerator, and U-turn are attributes that are perfectly manageable in OU. RP Landorus, Terrakion, the copious number of dragons, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo are much more threatening threats than Tornadus-T.

In the situation of Tornadus-T revenge killing the Terrakion, Weavile is the only check that has a chance of beating Tornadus-T. And that's only if SR is down. However, if a counter was brought in, Tornadus-T can switch out with U-Turn, giving the Tornadus-T player the momentum.

I doubt anything in OU will ever be a overpowering as Genesect was, Genesect isn't setting the uber benchmark. I also think you're underestimating Tornadus-T a little, as it is much more threatening than Keldeo (has counters for each set), Thundurus-T (not quite fast enough to use that magnificent special attack), and most of the dragons (there are more resistors to Outrage and Draco Meteor than there are to Hurricane).

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

Last moveslot is filler. Hidden power ground deals around 60 or so damage to jirachi if it switchs and stays in. And it cant ohko you back. So yeah.

It isnt about Koing back. I want to paralyze your tornadus and stop it for the rest of the game. Then I will switch to a counter because I would know it is HP ground.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

It isnt about Koing back. I want to paralyze your tornadus and stop it for the rest of the game. Then I will switch to a counter because I would know it is HP ground.

Then its gonna need hax to do it. Unless it has thunder wave paralysis inst guaranted.

[Electrolyte]

I in general support all of the people that disagree with the ban of Keldeo-R. (For Tornadus, I'm kind of split. It was a monster a month ago, but now there are plenty of checks that have sprung up, so I can't decide whether it's ban quality or not.) Keldeo is not really broken at all; it does in fact cover many threats but I think that's why it should stay in OU. It's a pokemon that can fulfill a variety of useful niches that are NOT overpowered but are certainly useful on nearly every team. For one, it's the best (and probably only) commonly used special fighter in OU- and it helps keep pokemon like Landorus-I in check. Keldeo brings a lot of versatility to OU, and is a common pokemon on today's offense. It has also promoted the usage of other pokemon- which of course is 'healthy' for any pokemon that wants to make a solid stand in OU. It has given the ever so common Lati@s another pokemon to counter, to Celebi and Starmie too. Also, the fact that Keldeo's best sets are choice makes it fairly easy to counter.

[Pocket]

Harsha, Tobes, and I have agreed to make a blacklist for this thread - users on this list can only post once per day. Post more than once and they'll be deleted, and multiple offense would lead to infractions.

Users end up in the blacklist when they spam this thread with medicore posts. Hopefully this will help you guys to develop better posting habits. Maybe you can use the extra time to attain voting rights as well ;) This blacklist will be updated in the OP.

Blacklist:
1) Curtains
2) RaikouLover
3) Rayland
4) SmashBrosBrawl

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

I in general support all of the people that disagree with the ban of Keldeo-R. (For Tornadus, I'm kind of split. It was a monster a month ago, but now there are plenty of checks that have sprung up, so I can't decide whether it's ban quality or not.) Keldeo is not really broken at all; it does in fact cover many threats but I think that's why it should stay in OU. It's a pokemon that can fulfill a variety of useful niches that are NOT overpowered but are certainly useful on nearly every team. For one, it's the best (and probably only) commonly used special fighter in OU- and it helps keep pokemon like Landorus-I in check. Keldeo brings a lot of versatility to OU, and is a common pokemon on today's offense. It has also promoted the usage of other pokemon- which of course is 'healthy' for any pokemon that wants to make a solid stand in OU. It has given the ever so common Lati@s another pokemon to counter, to Celebi and Starmie too. Also, the fact that Keldeo's best sets are choice makes it fairly easy to counter.

I am inclined to vote in favor of banning Tornadus-T, though I am still not certain about Keldeo. All of its sets, are either too fast or too strong, but once you pack a reliable counter to Keldeo, you are on a good position. Unlike Tornadus-T, Keldeo can't get past its counters/checks through haxing (Hurricane's 30% chance of confusion). Also, most Keldeo's counters are counters to rain in general. As you need to prepare for rain teams (obviously), using things like Rotom-W, Celebi, Latias, and Jellicent aren't actually evidence that Keldeo is "overcentralizing", as you would already use those to deal with rain. Unlike Tornadus-T. Despite what I said pages ago about Keldeo's power, and the fact that Keldeo can, in fact, function outside rain unlike some people said here, it is still no reason to ban him.

The only problem with Keldeo is the fact that the only offensive counter/check to him is Latias, which pretty much forces teams to run defensive checks/counters to deal with him. This has not been a problem to me, however.

Is somebody here having problems with Keldeo? Is Keldeo as hard to deal with as Tornadus-T?

[Nyara]

@Pocket: Thanks!

>Hitting two/three times in a row Focus Blast
Well, yeah, you can confuse them with Hurricane, too, but that's doesn't mean any Pokémon can destroy it's counters with high luck is actually a trouble (Alakazam fails it's Focus Blast? He's over. X Pokémon wallbreaks a counter wall by just having a Critical-Hit? Classic Lucky Wallbreaking. ANY Ice-Move ends on freezing your counter once you repeated it 2-3 times? Oh, wow, that's cool).

Anyway, I agree with ginganinja, the problem with him is the fact that he'll do more than any other Pokémon in OU on any match because he only have few counters, and he can just switch-out them, and make troubles to the opossing team for all the game. The unique way you can "hard check and counter" him is when he's the unique member of him's team alive, so, he can't run out again, or if you constantly use super-effective moves for him, making him unnable to switch-in, and add to it SR + Sun, or he'll repeat it's infinite process of wallbreaking, support, coverage, and dealing almost unresisted damage with it's powerful moves (or he can just use less-powerful moves and still dealing good damage, because it's almost unresisted and he still have it's 110 Special Attack base) and nothing will be able to counter, check, or stop him at all.

Even outside of rain, he¡s the best scouter of the game, he's the best wallbreaker of the game, and he can still use STAB Air Slash, or just try with Hurricane, it will hit the 70% of times, and if it doesn't hit, it's not a huge problem, you can just switch-out and repeat as you wish. And of course, Rain is the most used and powerful weather currently avaible, so, it can happen the next: 25% or more of times your opponent will carry it's Politoed / You can just Switch-In your own Politoed against Ninetales or Hippodown and make the path clear for Tornadus-T / If the worst happens, just use Rain Dance on anyone else or in your Tornadus-T to restart the Hurricane spam and the massive buff of the rain to everything. At the end, unless the opponent had it's whole team as check of Tornadus-T (like the "Deo-D, Weavile, Garchomp, Breloom, Kingdra, and Gengar" team), he'll just wreak havoc, wallbreak any of your walls, and K.O'ing almost the 100% of times at least one of opponents Pokémon (most usually, 2-3, but retarded people will be able to just K.O 1, but even them can score a second K.O without many problems), and he can even sweep if it's counters and checks are out from the game.

I'm not even incluiding it's almost uber-quality sinergy with Ferrothorn and friends, because it makes him even more not-OU than it's alone (it's still without sinergy, broken), and sinergy existed always for everyone.

[Jukain]

I'm seeing that a lot of people are saying that Tornadus-T doesn't have counters outside of SDef Jirachi and SDef Rotom-W. This is not true at all. Let's take a look at Tornadus-T counters:

SUN - Yeah. Sun. You *can* use Rain Dance but it sucks with Specs. And Rain Dance wears off in just 5 turns. And Ninetales can Sunny Day as Tornadus-T Rain Dances. In rqin, Hurricane is 50% accurate. That's super unreliable and makes it impossible for Tornadus-T to get much done. U-turn / Focus Blast or Superpower just isn't cutting it. Sun neuters it to a point where you shouldn't be threatened. With Hurricane so unreliable, stuff like Scarf / TR Victini and Volcarona can do as they please. And if Tornadus-T is weakened enough, Venusaur can revenge kill with Sludge Bomb / HP Ice.

SAND - All it does is cripple Hurricane, but that in itself basically destroys Tornadus-T. Oh and SDef Hippowdon can take any hit.

CHANSEY - Even Superpower can be stalled out with Softboiled (it can take two) and then Chansey can get up rocks to pretty much negate Regenerator, Toxic to wear it down, and / or Seismic Toss to wear it down quickly. Now, Chansey can't fit on every team, but it's a good counter. Blissey dies to Superpowers but otherwise it does well.

SDEF SKARMORY - It can take 2 Hurricanes and isn't even guaranteed to be 2HKOed with the inaccurate Focus Blast. In return it can Brave Bird for some damage, set up some free Spikes, or phaze it out with Whirlwind. Straightforward.

METAGROSS - Tell me it sucks idc- standard 252/160 Metagross can take 2 Focus Blasts or Hurricanes and go for a Hammer Arm (to slow it down) followed by a Meteor Mash for the KO after some prior damage. Guess where you get that prior damage. Oh, Stealth Rock!

That's just OU Pokemon. Let's see Pokemon from lower tiers:

BRONZONG - It can take every hit Tornadus-T has at its disposal so long as it has a bunch of SDef investment. It can hit back hard with Gyro Ball and HP Ice or set up Stealth Rock to mess up Regenerator.

Only one there but you get the idea. Countering Tornadus-T isn't hard, and it has plenty of checks e.g. Pokemon that can switch into Hurricane. Pocket said everything else there is to say. Tornadus-T isn't broken, really. Keldeo, the other suspect, is nowhere near broken imo.

[AJC]

Keldeo has problems with teams that pack a combo of tentacruel celebii and jellicent because between those 3 they pretty much cover every possible competively viable move keldeo will use.

and generally just tentacruel and celebii are enough for most keldeo and maintains reasonable defensive type spread on a team.

[TheDoctor1]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

I'm seeing that a lot of people are saying that Tornadus-T doesn't have counters outside of SDef Jirachi and SDef Rotom-W. This is not true at all. Let's take a look at Tornadus-T counters:

SUN - Yeah. Sun. You *can* use Rain Dance but it sucks with Specs. And Rain Dance wears off in just 5 turns. And Ninetales can Sunny Day as Tornadus-T Rain Dances. In rqin, Hurricane is 50% accurate. That's super unreliable and makes it impossible for Tornadus-T to get much done. U-turn / Focus Blast or Superpower just isn't cutting it. Sun neuters it to a point where you shouldn't be threatened. With Hurricane so unreliable, stuff like Scarf / TR Victini and Volcarona can do as they please. And if Tornadus-T is weakened enough, Venusaur can revenge kill with Sludge Bomb / HP Ice.

SAND - All it does is cripple Hurricane, but that in itself basically destroys Tornadus-T. Oh and SDef Hippowdon can take any hit.

CHANSEY - Even Superpower can be stalled out with Softboiled (it can take two) and then Chansey can get up rocks to pretty much negate Regenerator, Toxic to wear it down, and / or Seismic Toss to wear it down quickly. Now, Chansey can't fit on every team, but it's a good counter. Blissey dies to Superpowers but otherwise it does well.

SDEF SKARMORY - It can take 2 Hurricanes and isn't even guaranteed to be 2HKOed with the inaccurate Focus Blast. In return it can Brave Bird for some damage, set up some free Spikes, or phaze it out with Whirlwind. Straightforward.

METAGROSS - Tell me it sucks idc- standard 252/160 Metagross can take 2 Focus Blasts or Hurricanes and go for a Hammer Arm (to slow it down) followed by a Meteor Mash for the KO after some prior damage. Guess where you get that prior damage. Oh, Stealth Rock!

That's just OU Pokemon. Let's see Pokemon from lower tiers:

BRONZONG - It can take every hit Tornadus-T has at its disposal so long as it has a bunch of SDef investment. It can hit back hard with Gyro Ball and HP Ice or set up Stealth Rock to mess up Regenerator.

Only one there but you get the idea. Countering Tornadus-T isn't hard, and it has plenty of checks e.g. Pokemon that can switch into Hurricane. Pocket said everything else there is to say. Tornadus-T isn't broken, really. Keldeo, the other suspect, is nowhere near broken imo.

Zapdos is also a clear counter, seriously he is amazing vs tornadus t

Edit: but this doesn't mean that tornadus isn't over centralizing the meta game. Also to the people saying tornadus I will just replace him and be nearly as good are forgetting about how important the 121 speed is, it stops revenge killers such as alakazam or trio from outspending which IMO is a big deal

[Electrolyte]

Although I am still undecided at this point and do think that pokemon0078 does bring up some valid points, I do want to say that those solutions are viable but other than that they are rare and don't have too much other use because of the condition of the current meta. Blissey / Chansey are obliterated by the swarm of powerful physical hitters- Kyu-B, Fightings, Lando-T, Dragons, they are all powerful enough to break down the two walls. Skarm is on a similar boat. Deo-D is a much better fighting type counter, and now many Dragons carry coverage against Skarm, also degrading its niche. Rain is still going strong, and Surf spam from Keldeo certainly isn't helping. Sun is not used much anymore either, because Rain / Sand are getting just too powerful. Of course, I love me some SpDef Ninetails to counter Tornadus, but due to the fact that most Rain teams carry numerous answers to Sun as well as SR Ninetails just doesn't get as many chances to switch in anymore.

The list of common counters to Torn-T is not long- but I think its list of checks is more similar to that of a solid OU pokemon. LO Latias rose up to the stage to be a good check; it can take a hit or two, Roost of the damage, and the hit hard. Most common Scarfers can take a hit and KO as well; Scarf Latios is certainly capable of doing this, LO Hurricane will never OHKO Terrak even outside of Sand, and Specs only KO's 1/3 of the time. Thundurus-T is a lesser known but still effective check, as it can take a hit and reply back with VSwitch or Tbolt.

The thing with Tornadus-T is, you have to play your cards right or it'll rip apart your team- and many successful Torn players I've seen win by removing Tornadus-T counters and then sweeping. The problem is that true counters are rare and checks often are weakened and can't handle it. Either way, Tornadus-T is quite dangerous.

[Jukain]

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

The thing with Tornadus-T is, you have to play your cards right or it'll rip apart your team- and many successful Torn players I've seen win by removing Tornadus-T counters and then sweeping. The problem is that true counters are rare and checks often are weakened and can't handle it. Either way, Tornadus-T is quite dangerous.

It's cliche but whatever: You can say that of many OU Pokemon. Terrakion, Keldeo, Salamence, Venusaur, Volcarona, you name it; OU is full of Pokemon that fit this description.