Hippowdon (BW2 Revamp) [QC 2/3]

[Meru]

[Overview]

- Transition to BW2 makes Sandstorm teams more in need of a durable weather inducer.
- Combined with increased Dugtrio usage, causes Tyranitar to fall out of favor.
- Only weather starter with reliable recovery.
- Physically bulkiest Pokemon in the entire OU tier.
- Low SpDef compounded with weakness to common special types such as Grass, Water, and Ice.
- Lack of offense; Taunt/Hazard bait.
- Competition from Donphan, Garchomp, and Landorus-T

[SET]
name: Mixed Wall
move 1: Slack Off
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stealth Rock
move 4: Whirlwind / Ice Fang
item: Leftovers
ability: Sand Stream / Sand Force
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

- SpDef investment allows Hippowdon to counter prominent non-boosting special attackers that can't strike with a strong STAB.
- One of the best CM Jirachi counters in the game.
- Still has enough physical bulk to counter boosting threats such as Toxicroak, Dragonite.
- Gives it an easier time switching into Defensive Politoed and Ninetales, giving fierce competition in the weather war.
- Strong STAB EQ punishes many pokemon for staying in.
- With Whirlwind, boosters such as Latias and Volcarona cannot use him as set up bait.
- Ice Fang doesn't counter any special threats beyond dragons, but does dissuade switch-ins such as Breloom, Celebi, Gliscor, and the Landorus formes. It also allows Hippowdon to break Air Balloons.
- Sand Force can be used on Rain, Sun, and Hail teams.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

- Calcs for LO Jolteon, LO Gengar, Specs Magnezone, Air Balloon Heatran, Sash Alakazam without Grass Knot, LO Mixmence, +1 Lum DDMence, BU and LO Toxicroak, +1 Latias, +1 Volcarona with and without Giga Drain.
- Needs teammates to handle boosted Water, Ice, and Grass attacks. Can't take Specs Draco Meteors.
- Can't handle boosted physical attacks, so a dedicated wall is needed.
- Needs support in eliminating Xatu if setting up Stealth Rock.
- Likes entry hazards to damage when shuffling with Whirlwind.
- With an affinity for entry hazards, a good ghost is needed. Jellicent has good synergy.

[SET]
name: Physical Wall
move 1: Slack Off
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stealth Rock
move 4: Ice Fang / Whirlwind
item: Leftovers
ability: Sand Stream / Sand Force
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

- Same set as before, but Hippowdon's excellent HP and Defense allow it to serve as a great physical wall.
- Ice Fang is slashed over Whirlwind as it's necessary to beat many physical threats that he counters, such as Garchomp and Dragonite.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

- Unlike other set, less of a need for another physical wall.
- Needs special wall. Synergizes well with SpD Ferrothorn as it can take the Water-, Grass-, and Ice-type attacks aimed at Hippowdon and set up Spikes that amplify Hippowdon's phazing. In return, Ferrothorn lures out Fighting-types such as Terrakion and Lucario, which Hippowdon effortlessly walls.
- Rotom-W helps to take on Gyarados and Mamoswine, two of the few physical threats Hippowdon cannot stand up to.
- Rain and Breloom counter also needed. Amoonguss can fend off Breloom as well as the powerful rain threats that Hippowdon can't switch into.
- Sand Force can be used on Rain, Sun, and Hail teams.

[Other Options]

- Offensive Sand Force is overshadowed by Landorus-T and Garchomp, who give much more utility as Offensive Ground-type pivots, and Donphan, who has more utility.
- Rock Slide or Stone Edge can be used to give EdgeQuake coverage and to nail Volcarona, although phazing it usually suffices.

[Checks and Counters]

- Rotom-W, Keldeo, strong Water/Grass/Ice attacks in general.
- Mixed attackers that can catch it off-guard.
- Trick.
- Susceptible to random burns and toxics, as well as accumulated damage from Spikes.
- Espeon and Xatu, although Espeon can't take EQs.
- Taunt.
- Bulky Hazard set up bait from the likes of Deoxys-D, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory.

NOTES TO READERS
- Eliminated the Sand Force set. I don't think it's viable, but I am open to arguments otherwise.
- Made more mention of BW2's introduction of Landorus-T, as it occupies some portion of a niche that Hippowdon could've used.
- Want to make more acknowledgment of Stoutland but not sure how. Suggestions would be nice.

[AJC]

it's has recovery that lando-T would like to have but otherwise that niche is probably better served with lando-T

[Woodchuck]

ajc rejected 1/0???

it would be a good idea to expand on the reasons that hippowdon should be run over tyranitar: you've already mentioned threats that Tyranitar loses to in the overview but Hippowdon also loses to all of them except Terrakion. :/
Recovery, neutrality to Fighting, and not getting trapped by dugtrio come to mind as things to list.

[Super Mario Bro]

I agree with the set order. Though, I do think Impish should be slashed before Careful on the Mixed Wall set, since it gets more mileage out of boosting its best stat, and it's nice to have an extra buffer against tough EQ users and Terrakion.

[Meru]

Originally Posted by Fat Woodchuck

ajc rejected 1/0???

it would be a good idea to expand on the reasons that hippowdon should be run over tyranitar: you've already mentioned threats that Tyranitar loses to in the overview but Hippowdon also loses to all of them except Terrakion. :/
Recovery, neutrality to Fighting, and not getting trapped by dugtrio come to mind as things to list.

You're completely right. Although you don't need to be rude about a reject. Should I put that in the Overview or the first set?

Originally Posted by Fat Super Mario Bro

I agree with the set order. Though, I do think Impish should be slashed before Careful on the Mixed Wall set, since it gets more mileage out of boosting its best stat, and it's nice to have an extra buffer against tough EQ users and Terrakion.

No. I know a lot of 3HKOs (aka chances to Slack Off) turn into 2HKOs when you don't run Careful, one of them off the top of my head being Specs Jolteon and LO Thundurus HP Ice.

Careful is too invaluable for the mixed wall. And Impish doesn't make you any more able to counter Terrakion unless it's scarfed or CB locked into Stone Edge, which Careful can counter anyway. Impish with 252 SpDef isn't beating SD Terrakion or taking a CB CC anyday either.

And don't forget that SpDef Hippowdon's biggest selling point is being able to cockblock those special attackers which will give it a chance to change the weather.

Maybe I should just change the set name to SpDef Hippo so nobody gets confused?

[Woodchuck]

I'd put it in the overview because it's relevant to each hippo set.
And sorry, I didn't want to be rude, just facetious. :/

[shrang]

About Sand Force, I wouldn't say it's useless per se, but I do agree that the Life Orb set should be removed. The key about Sand Force Hippo is that it means you can run Hippo without Sand Stream. This mean it can work as a wall for non-sand teams, like rain and sun. Sand Force Hippowdon especially does well on sun teams as a check to Terrakion. The moveset would be exactly the same, so I'd suggest slashing Sand Force after Sand Stream, then add an AC paragraph on either or both of the sets to highlight the advantages of using Hippowdon on rain and sun teams.

[ginganinja]

I had good success with LO Hippowdon in BW2. Its a good set, not exactly amazing, but still good enough for a set IMO. Having to run Tyranitar with Hippowdon is prolly the sets biggest weakness, however Double Sand does this without much trouble and its pretty easy to fake having SS on Hippowdon anyway (since you bring it in under Sand often).

Personally, I think all Hippowdon really needs is an scms fix but if you want to go ahead with this please add the LO Hippowdon set.

Few quick points

Transition to BW2 brings rise to dangerous threats such as Terrakion and Jirachi.

Reword this, it makes it sound like Terrakion and Jirachi were only released in BW2, or that they were uncommon or not amazing in BW1. This is untrue. Perhapes mention how popular these pokemon are or something, or Garchomp / Kyurem-B if you want to mention "new" pokemon I guess.

Lack of offense; can be set up bait.

Potentially yea, although I don't really risk setting up on Hippowdon since it feels like 90% of them run Whirlwind (or Roar -_-) so I don't consider it set up bait rly.

If Sandstorm support isn't abused, role better left to Landorus-T or Garchomp

Might want to add clarification here. Sandstorm typically lacks abusers compared to Rain and Sun (Landorus, Stoutland and Sandslash are most of them iirc), making it less aggressive. A Hippowdon team doesn't need Stoutland (one of your "sandstorm abusers" to be effective, so be sure to mention that Sandstorm has to have a purpose on your team rather than stressing abusers of which there are few (compared with Rain and Sun). Do mention Stoutland / Landorus and maybe Sandslash as partners tho.

[Meru]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

About Sand Force, I wouldn't say it's useless per se, but I do agree that the Life Orb set should be removed. The key about Sand Force Hippo is that it means you can run Hippo without Sand Stream. This mean it can work as a wall for non-sand teams, like rain and sun. Sand Force Hippowdon especially does well on sun teams as a check to Terrakion. The moveset would be exactly the same, so I'd suggest slashing Sand Force after Sand Stream, then add an AC paragraph on either or both of the sets to highlight the advantages of using Hippowdon on rain and sun teams.

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

I had good success with LO Hippowdon in BW2. Its a good set, not exactly amazing, but still good enough for a set IMO. Having to run Tyranitar with Hippowdon is prolly the sets biggest weakness, however Double Sand does this without much trouble and its pretty easy to fake having SS on Hippowdon anyway (since you bring it in under Sand often).

Personally, I think all Hippowdon really needs is an scms fix but if you want to go ahead with this please add the LO Hippowdon set.

What does the Sand Force set add that can't be better covered by Landorus-T?

Defensively, Sand Force Hippowdon is outclassed:
CB (Neutral) Terrakion Close Combat vs 252/4 Hippowdon: 61% - 72%
-1 CB (Neutral) Terrakion Stone Edge vs 252/0 Landorus-T: 37% - 44%
CB (Neutral) Terrakion Close Combat vs 252/4 Donphan: 64% - 76%

Admittedly, it takes hits better than 252/4 Donphan. But Donphan brings Ice Shard and Rapid Spin to the table. Sand Force Hippowdon ends up being too slow but not tanky enough to do anything signifcant.

Offensively, Sand Force Hippowdon IS stronger:
252+ LO Sand Force Hippowdon Earthquake vs. Terrakion: 183% - 217%
252+ LO Hippowdon Earthquake vs Terrakion: 142% - 168%
252+ Landorus-T Earthquake vs Terrakion: 131% - 155%

Pros of Landorus-T:
Leftovers instead of LO
Can actually take two hits from CB Terrakion
Avoids Spikes and Toxic Spikes
Ground Immunity, Fighting resistance, Bug resistance, Grass neutrality
More speed
Utility with Intimidate and U-turn.
Not dependant on Sand to be at full power.

Pros of SF Hippowdon
Stronger, even outside Sand
Rock resistance, only 2x Ice Weak
Reliable Recovery
Faking double sand

I saw merit for LO Sand Force Hippowdon in BW1, but with the introduction of Landorus-T, I feel like it's curtains for that set, as any Landorus-T set can be better tailored to people's teams. Slack Off isn't enough of a merit to bring to the table when you fail to avoid most 2HKOs specially and physically.

I'm making attempts to convince you both. You guys could be right, but I just don't see any proof.

[Meru]

Any response?

[shrang]

I don't think you can compare defensive SF Hippo to Landorus-T and Donphan. Landorus-T is a tank that's suppose to hit hard and work more as a pivot, while Donphan is used for its utilities. Hippowdon, however, is a completely different animal in the fact that it's there to wall and phaze things. It has reliable recovery, which completely sets it apart from Lando-T and Donphan (and Gliscor as well). I know Hippowdon is mainly used for Sand Stream, but it wouldn't hurt to at least mention how Hippowdon can be used outside of sand teams using the same set, except without Sand Stream.

[Meru]

I put mention of Sand Force in the defensive sets for Rain/Sun/Hail teams but an offensive sand force set was put in OO. Waiting for QC checks now.

[PK Gaming]

QC Approved 1/3

I agree with Meru, I don't see a point to running Sand Force Hippowdon in OU. In addition to being somewhat inferior to Landorus-T, Sand is nowhere near as common as it used to be. This set is effectively dead weight against sun and rain teams, you can't seriously justify using it in this day and age. An AC mention should suffice.

[Frog]

252/248 or 248/252 impish allows to NEVER be 2HKOed by CB terrak from full this is pretty important, what do the 12 SpD EVS accomplish that 8 can't?

[papai noel]

Shouldn't Rock Slide at least be mentioned for the Mixed Wall? Hippowdon with Rock Slide is really effective against Volcarona while still hitting Flying-types for super effective damage. I think it deservers an OO mention, it can be pretty useful.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Just as an fyi because Hippowdon only has two abilities you don't need the ability tag, since it shows both of the available abilities being suggested in both sets.

[complete legitimacy]

That's only when the abilities are about as good as each other, or that they both do nothing. Sand Stream is clearly superior to Sand Force in this case, so the ability tag should stay.

[Meru]

Originally Posted by Fat papai noel

Shouldn't Rock Slide at least be mentioned for the Mixed Wall? Hippowdon with Rock Slide is really effective against Volcarona while still hitting Flying-types for super effective damage. I think it deservers an OO mention, it can be pretty useful.

I made mention, although Ice Fang is usually superior to hit Gliscor, Landorus, Landorus-T, Salamence, Dragonite, Hydreigon, and Garchomp.

Waiting the last two QC checks

[shrang]

Looks good.


QC Approved 2/3

[Pocket]

Meru is busy with uni life - we need somebody else to finish this bad boy

[alexwolf]

I will write it! The thread is gonna be up tomorrow, and i will write this within the next weak!

[alexwolf]

New thread is up, pls lock this.

[AccidentalGreed]