Pokémon BW2 In-game Tier List Mark II

[Lucchini]

You can trust TM13IceBeam on TM13IceBeam's location.

[SuperJOCKE]

To get this thing started again, so it can be finished, I'm going to propose tiering placements for a couple of Pokémon that barely see any use, from the looks of things, which makes it hard to put them in a tier. I'm going to start off with 5 Pokémon, and then I'll let you guys state your thoughts on the matter. These Pokémon will often be those found late in the game or are hard to acquire.

These are the Pokémon in question this time, and what tier I propose for each one:

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Golurk for Low


Druddigon for Low


Zweilous for Low or Bottom


Sawk for Low


Throh for Low or Bottom

My thoughtprocess behind these suggestions stems mostly from location (for these Pokémon in particular, they come really late in the game), but also typing (match-up-wise; in this case, mostly surrounding the E4), stats, and when they evolve (if they do).

If you want me to give my reasons for these suggestions, I will happily provide them in short bulletpoints.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is the current preliminary tier list. If you guys could look it through and discuss the included Pokémons' current placements, and give those who are hovering inbetween tiers etc., a solid placement that would be great. When talking about a Pokémon's placement though, it's preferred that you've actually used it, but I will allow discussions out of theory because of the huge ammount of Pokémon in these games.

Here is a link to the latest preliminary in-game tier list.

It hasn't been updated in a while though. However, I will look through the previous posts to see if there are any new additions or changes needed and give you an updated one.

Don't be afraid to state your experiences with any Pokémon. It's you guys who will decide where all Pokémon end up in the end. Let's get this done.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Sawk might actualy deserve Mid-tier to be completely honest, even though it is available obnoxiously late in the game. The reason for this is because while I haven't used it yet in BW2, I used it after I obtained all 8 of my badges in the first one, it had a Bold Nature, and even then it was still pretty effective. It has a really strong Close Combat that can utterly destroy Iris's Hydreigon, its much more powerful than Scrafty, it is much faster than Emboar, and Grimsey doesn't even stand a chance against Sawk. While Heracross gives it a lot of competition (both are available in Black 2), Sawk trains faster than Heracross (exp curve), it can learn the elemental punches, and can beat some foes Heracross can't due to a lack of some weaknesses (like Fire-types). I wouldn't be completely opposed to Low-tier but Sawk may have some merit.

The others I can agree with, but on the ones with two options Throh should probably be Low and Zweilous might as well be Bottom since it won't evolve by the time the game is over, unless you overgrind.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Swamp-Rocket

Sawk might actualy deserve Mid-tier to be completely honest, even though it is available obnoxiously late in the game. The reason for this is because while I haven't used it yet in BW2, I used it after I obtained all 8 of my badges in the first one, it had a Bold Nature, and even then it was still pretty effective. It has a really strong Close Combat that can utterly destroy Iris's Hydreigon, its much more powerful than Scrafty, it is much faster than Emboar, and Grimsey doesn't even stand a chance against Sawk. While Heracross gives it a lot of competition (both are available in Black 2), Sawk trains faster than Heracross (exp curve), it can learn the elemental punches, and can beat some foes Heracross can't due to a lack of some weaknesses (like Fire-types). I wouldn't be completely opposed to Low-tier but Sawk may have some merit.

The others I can agree with, but on the ones with two options Throh should probably be Low and Zweilous might as well be Bottom since it won't evolve by the time the game is over, unless you overgrind.

This. I wouldn't mind Mid Sawk as well, it's a very legitimate endgame filler even though it gets beaten up by Heracross everywhere (and you should be using Hera if you're playing B2)

Not sure on why Zweilous is being potentially considered for Bottom: with Wide Lens it's still capable of pulling off some crazy damage (alternatively you can also roll the Dragon Rush Lottery which I really don't recommend...) I think it should be somewhere in Low, but Zweilous vs. Druddigon is pretty much just power vs. accuracy :/

[Advancer]

I finished the game in November. Here are my rankings for the Pokemon I used:

Snivy - Mid Tier

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Snivy: Mid Tier
Availability: It's a starter.
Stats: At base 113 Speed, Serperior is the fastest of the starters, and at base 75 / 95 / 95 defences it is the bulkiest of the three. It is faster than most of its opponents and can take a few hits. Its 75 / 75 offenses are occasionally not enough to break through tougher opponents.
Typing: Although Snivy’s pure Grass typing is fine in the early game, from Castelia onwards it steadily loses its offensive edge as the opponent diversity increases. Nonetheless, It remains a reliable go-to Pokemon for almost all ground, rock, and water type opponents that appear in the mid to late game.
Movepool: Serperior finds several useful moves through level-up in Growth, Leech Seed, Leaf Blade (at lv. 32), Coil (lv. 38), and Giga Drain (lv. 44). It can learn Aerial Ace, Return, and Dragon Tail from TMs, and Return is acquired early enough for it to be a reliable secondary move for most of the game. Its best Move Tutor moves are Aqua Tail and Dragon Pulse, from Lentimas Town, the former for 6 Blue Shards and the latter for 10 Blue Shards.

Major Battles:
Cheren: Snivy learns growth at Level 13, allowing it to boost the power of its sole STAB move, Vine Whip. It is also the only starter with a higher base speed than Lillipup.
Roxie: Even with Growth, Snivy (or Servine) is not going to have an easy time against Koffing or Whirlipede. It should sit this one out.
Burgh: Struggle Bug is super effective against Servine and reduces its SpA stat, so it should probably sit this one out. However, it can use Leech Seed to break Dwebble's Sturdy.
Elesa: Servine with Eviolite shines in this battle. It can boost with Growth on the first turn, Leech Seed on the second, and go from there. Servine is not all that bothered by Zebstrika's Flame Charge as long as it has a boost or two and can hit back on the same turn. Servine can defeat Elesa without the need for team support.
Clay: Servine can set up in the face of Clay's Pokemon and proceed to clean the field with Leaf Blade. The speed drop from Bulldoze is a hinderance against Excadrill, as Rock Slide may case Servine to flinch. It also clears out all of the other trainers in the gym.
Skyla: All of her Pokemon carry super effective moves against Serperior, whose best use is to drop Leech Seed for a team mate. In addition, it can be out sped by Skyla's Swoobat, who sits at 114 base Speed.
Zinzolin: First encountered in Lacunosa Town, Zinzolin’s Pokemon of choice is the Ice type Crygonal. Serperior's best move against Cryogonal is Leaf Blade, but Cyrogonal always carries Ice Beam.
Drayden: Drayden's Pokemon can use Dragon Tail against Serperior, forcing it out and removing any of its stat boosts. If Drayden's Haxorus gains a Dragon Dance, it will be hard for Serperior to stop it unless it has been taught Dragon Pulse at Lentimas Town. Serperior is capable of cleaning out the other opponents in the gym with Dragon Pulse (if running special) or with Coil boosts (if running physical moves).
Marlon: Thanks to that gorgeous grass typing and 113 base Speed, Serperior has no trouble with Marlon or the other trainers in this gym. Physical sets should be careful of receiving a burn from Carracosta's Scald, as its Sturdy ability ensures it will always survive the first turn.
Colress: Serperior does not mind electric type attacks or Thunder Wave, but its best move against Colress's steel types is Aqua Tail, from the Lentimas Town move tutor.
Ghetis: Unfortunately, Seismitoad is Ghetis's only Pokemon that Serperior can take on without being threatened by a super effective move. Serperior is walled by Cofagrigus if it is running a physical set, but can use Leech Seed against it.
Elite Four Shauntal: Serperior is threatened by Driflim and Chandelure, but it can take out Golurk with ease.
Elite Four Grimsley: Serperior can take out Krookodile, but Grimsley's other Pokemon carry super effective moves against it.
Elite Four Caitlin: Serperior is viable answer to Reuniclus and Gothitelle, but to do that it needs to set up. Sigilyph threatens Serperior and should be removed by a teammate.
Elite Four Marshal: Serperior can lead to set up on Throh and proceed to hit hard with Aerial Ace. Although Mienshao sits at base 105 Speed, it may move first and use Bounce or U-turn.
Champion Iris: All of Iris’s Pokemon carry super effective moves against Serperior, and most resist grass or are too bulky to be taken out in one hit. If taught Coil and Dragon Tail, Serperior can find a saving grace as a late-game cleaner, allowing it to have a chance against Archeops and Haxorus.

Additional Comments: I felt Serperior was a good Pokemon, but in the end, it just doesn’t have as many opportunities to shine as one might anticipate. I held off from teaching it any Move Tutor moves, and this was probably a good choice as Leaf Blade / Coil / Leech Seed with Return, Aerial Ace or Dragon Tail as filler got it through most situations.

Growlithe - High Tier

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Growlithe: High Tier
Availability: Found at Virbank Complex with a mid/high encounter rate.
Stats: At 110 Atk, 100 SpA, and 90 / 80 / 80 defences, Arcanine is a strong and bulky attacker. Its base 95 speed sets it above most late- and endgame opponents.
Typing: Fire type STAB does not bring it many advantages, but opponents that resist Fire are not too common outside of Undella Bay, Humilau City, and the Dragon type users. Intimidate is an excellent ability that gives Arcanine an immediate advantage against opposing physical attackers. Intimidate should be the preferred ability, as the rarity of opposing Fire types renders Flash Fire redundant.
Movepool: Its best STAB move is Flare Blitz, but some players will find holding off evolution until lv. 45 too much of a bother for a single move. It is worth noting that Growlithe also learns Crunch at lv. 39 and Outrage at lv. 42, two very useful moves against Shauntal, Caitlin, Draydren, and Iris. If the Fire Stone is used after level 45, a Heart Scale is needed for Extremespeed - though it is a fairly situational move in-game. Viable TM moves include Return, Dig, Aerial Ace, Bulldoze, and Wild Charge. It can learn Dragon Pulse from a Move Tutor (10 Blue Shards, Lentimas Town), but it isn’t compulsory as Growlithe is likely to learn Outrage around the time the player passes through Lentimas Town or Reversal Mountain.

Major Battles:
Roxie: Growlithe cleans out Whirlipede and fairs well against Koffing.
Burgh: Learning Flame Wheel at lv. 17 allows it to clean up on Burgh, but it must be wary of Dwebble’s Sturdy ability and Smack Down.
Elesa: I didn’t have the opportunity to try Growlithe against Elesa, but as it can learn Dig it has the potential to do well.
Clay: Growlithe’s STAB may be super effective against Excadrill, but it does not like being hit by Bulldoze or Rock Slide, and even less so if it has not evolved.
Skyla: It cleans up Skarmory and Swoobat. It will have trouble with Swanna, especially if it has not evolved. Furthermore, Swoobat and Swanna’s higher base speed is one of a few situations that warrant the use of Extremespeed.
Zinzolin: If it has Flare Blitz, Cyrogonal is cake. If not, Return is the next best choice as Crygonal’s high SpD means it will survive at least two uses of Flamethrower.
Drayden: Its Fire STAB is not good here, but if it knows Outrage or Dragon Pulse it’ll perform well provided it can sponge Flygon’s Earth Power and Rock Slide.
Marlon: If water types are in play, Arcanine is not a good choice. As a note, the Wild Charge TM is not found until Victory Road.
Colress: Arcanine loves burning Colress’s steel types, but it doesn’t like Sturdy and it doesn’t like paralysis either.
Ghetis: Arcanine can hit Cofagrigus with Crunch, though this will activate the opponent’s Mummy ability. It fairs well against Elektross, Drapion, and Toxicroak, and Hydreigon if it has a Dragon-type move. It is worth noting that it has a base speed tie with Drapion, which knows Earthquake.
Elite Four Shauntal: If it knows Crunch, Arcanine is wonderful here. It should avoid Golurk though, as Earthquake will probably OHKO.
Elite Four Grimsley: It can hit Liepard and Bisharp, but Scrafty and Krookodile carry super-effective moves.
Elite Four Caitlin: Other than Musharna’s Yawn, Caitlin’s Pokemon do not have an answer for any Arcanine that carries Crunch. Sigilyph is Caitlin’s only Pokemon with a higher base speed, but it is frail enough to be taken out in one hit.
Elite Four Marshal: Mienshao is the only Pokemon on Marshal’s roster that does not carry a Rock-type move, but it is faster than Arcanine and hits hard with Hi Jump Kick and Bounce.
Champion Iris: If it knows Outrage, Arcanine is extremely useful here for clearing out Hydreigon and Druddigon, but it faces problems against Haxorus who is faster after a Dragon Dance and can 2HKO or OHKO with Earthquake. Wild Charge is also a good option here for removing Lapras. It can hurt Archeops with Wild Charge, but it is faster than Arcanine and can flinchhax and 2HKO with Rock Slide.

Additional Comments: I found Growlithe and the Snivy line to be a good combination from Virbank right up through Driftveil, by which point I’d picked up a third team member. It is probably the Pokemon I used the most, and once I used the fire stone at level 39, I found myself impressed by it for quite a while afterward. It wasn’t as useful through Route 23 and Victory Road, but wherever it could perform well it generally did. I used it a little in the Elite Four, but I had trouble finding a good use for it against Iris as didn’t teach it Outrage or Dragon Pulse.

Pinsir (White 2 Only) - High Tier

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Pinsir (White 2 Only): High Tier
Availability: First available in Lostlorn Forest, but has a low encounter rate. It can also be caught later at Route 12.
Stats:125 Atk and 100 Def is nothing to scoff at, and 70 SpD and 85 Spe round it off.
Typing: Bug type isn’t all that glamorous, but thankfully Pinsir is powerful enough to pull it off. It also has access to Hyper Cutter and Mold Breaker, both decent abilities that cater toward certain situations. Its hidden ability, Moxie, is available through the Lostlorn Forest Hidden Grotto, but the likelihood of finding one upon arriving is so small that the player is better off searching the grass for a Pinsir
Movepool: If caught in Lostlorn Forest, Pinsir already knows Brick Break and will learn X-scissor at lv 28. At lv. 40 it gains the all-powerful Swords Dance. At lv. 43 Brick Break can be replaced with the more powerful Superpower. Its notable TMs are Bulldoze (from Clay) and Rock Slide, which requires a detour into Mistralton Cave. But the detour is worth it, as Rock Slide rounds out Pinsir’s coverage alongside X-scissor and Brick Break.

Major Battles:
Elesa: It is a bit of a detour to catch Pinsir before battling Elesa, and it does not like paralysis or Zebstrika’s Flame Charge.
Clay: Pinsir does fine in most of the battles before and leading up to Clay, but the rock type moves his team carries – and their speed – present a problem for the mighty bug. It is worth noting that Pinsir isn’t likely to learn Swords Dance until after Chargestone Cave.
Skyla: As a bug type, Pinsir has little reason to be used in Skyla’s flying type gym.
Zinzolin: Cryogonal and Weavile are faster than Pinsir, but Pinsir isn’t really threatened by either and can hit both with Brick Break.
Drayden: With or without a Swords Dance, Pinsir is not particularly threatened by the Dragon types in Drayden’s gym. Players should be cautious against Drayden as it can be forced out by Dragon Tail.
Marlon: Pinsir is a fair choice against Wailord, but it doesn’t like the matchup against Carracosta and has a hard time taking out Jellicent. However, it is fares well against the other trainers in the gym.
Colress: Pinsir is quite good against Colress’s steel types and does not mind paralysis if it already has a Swords Dance under its belt.
Ghetis: It has no issues with Seismitoad, Drapion or Elektross. Pinrsir can do fine against Cofagrigus (it is not bothered by gaining the ability Mummy) and Toxicroak after a boost, but Hydreigon may get a hit in before Pinsir knocks it out.
Elite Four Shauntal: Pinsir does not have any useful moves against Ghost types besides Rock Slide, and both Drifblim and Chandelure can knock it out.
Elite Four Grimsley: Following a Swords Dance, Pinsir can clear out Liepard and proceed to clean out Grimley’s other Pokemon with little to no interference.
Elite Four Caitlin: Pinsir can set up on Musharna if it doesn’t mind Yawn, but is threatened by Sigilyph on the switch-in. Reuniclus and Gothitelle do not carry any moves that threaten it.
Elite Four Marshal: Pinsir’s fighting type resistance may be useful, but Marshal has a tough roster that can attack it with Rock type moves. Mienshao is notable as it is faster and can KO or cripple Pinsir with Bounce if the player doesn’t switch out.
Champion Iris: Pinsir has some useful moves, but it has trouble finding an opponent to safely set up on. It also has trouble against the inevitable Archeops switch-in, who is faster and can OHKO with Acrobatics or Rock Slide.

Additional Comments: Although it does not have many match-ups for the major battles, I used it often and found it performed superbly against most trainers and almost all Team Plasma opponents. I recommend it for high tier.

Bouffalant - Low Tier

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Bouffalant: Low Tier
Availability: It can be caught at Route 23. It can be found earlier at the Hidden Hollow on Route 9, but its rarity and its Hidden Ability are not worth waiting for.
Stats: Sitting at 110 Atk and 95 / 95 / 95 defences, Bouffalant seems pretty good… until you see that 55 base speed. Bouffalant can survive a hard hit or two, but it will usually be moving last in its turn.
Typing: Normal is the same as it has always been, but Bouffalant’s better stats and access to the ability Reckless alongside Head Charge bring it some needed leverage. In addition, rock- and steel- type opponents are not common in Victory Road or the League, and this means Bouffalant has a little more room to move.
Movepool: Bouffalant knows Megahorn when caught, which is a great coverage move on it, but otherwise it has to be taught Return or go to the move relearner for Head Charge for a reliable normal-type move. It learns the all-important Swords Dance (at lv. 56), and a three attacks plus Swords Dance is a fair bread-and-butter set for it thanks to its good bulk. From TMs it can learn Return (but Head Charge is better), Rock Slide, and Wild Charge; and from Move Tutors it can learn Zen Headbutt and Superpower (from Lentimas Town, for 8 and 10 Blue Shards respectively).

Major Battles:
Elite Four Shauntal: Bouffalant has no decent coverage moves for ghost types.
Elite Four Grimsley: Bouffalant’s Megahorn clears out Liepard, but it may have trouble against Scrafty who is a little faster it and can hit it with Brick Break. Only Grimsley’s Bisharp resists normal, but it can be hit with Wild Charge.
Elite Four Caitlin: Bouffalant can hit Caitlin’s Pokemon with Megahorn, and it has Wild Charge or Rock Slide for Sigilyph.
Elite Four Marshal: Bouffalant’s normal typing and low speed mean it will not fair well against Marshal’s roster of fighting types.
Champion Iris: Bouffalant can lead with Swords Dance and Quick Claw to remove Hydreigon and Druddigon from play. It also fares well against Archeops and Lapras if it has Wild Charge. It has difficulties against Aggron even if it has Wild Charge, and Haxorus is faster and move powerful.

Additional Comments: I needed a fourth Pokemon for Victory Road and the League, but the other choices on Route 23 and Victory Road didn’t appeal to me at all. Bouffalant is tough, and it doesn’t require shards, but for a normal type and one so late in the game it is only worth recommending if you need another team mate for Victory Road and the League.

I'm aware that Growlithe has been sitting in Mid for a few weeks, though I would like to see it in High again as it went so well with Snivy and Pinsir.


In regards to SuperJOCKE's suggestions, I feel that

Golurk should be Low or Bottom
I don't think it has that good of a type match up in the League, and its dependency on Iron Fist and the elemental punch Move Tutor is rather offputting.

Druddigon should be Low
Zweilous should be Bottom
If I had to choose between Druddigon and Zweilous, I'd go with Druddigon - it doesn't suffer from accuracy drop; it has Dragon Claw, Night Slash and Superpower by level-up; it can learn Fire Punch and Thunderpunch and both are boosted by Sheer Force; and it has the option of running a Hone Claws set.

Sawk should be Low
Throh should be Bottom
Although Sawk can only be caught in rustling grass in White 2, it is still the better choice as it faster, has access to Sturdy, and has a better movepool through the elemental punch and Dual Chop move tutors.

As an aside, I actually caught at Sawk in White 2 around the same time I caught my Bouffalant - both were Jolly natured and the Sawk had Sturdy (IIRC). I decided on Bouffalant as I didn't need Sawk's fighting type STAB (and I intended not to spend any shards on this playthrough).

[thesynchrohero]

I am playing through Black 2 right now and am going to give advice on the 3 Pokemon rivaling my level 63 Mienshao for MVP, bare in mind the level of these three is 42, yes, that's right 3 Pokemon are rivaling my MVP for that status despite being 21 levels lower then him.

Zebstrika Top Tier

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Type : It's typing is perfect for where you get it because the next gym is the flying one, it also tears Marlon to shreds with STAB Discharge and Wild Charge but I left the zebra Pokemon out of that battle this time round.

STATS : Massive speed and decent offences meant I could solo Skyla at level 33 which is no easy feat even for an electric type..

Movepool : It gets two of it's best moves from level up in the form of Discharge and Wild Charge to smash stuff with before getting Thunder(bolt) from TM as well as Signal Beam from the Driftveil Move Tutor.

Major Battles : okay, there is gonna be some theoymonning here because I've never used a Zebstrika, or any of the Pokemon currently in my team against the E4, so E4 people will be theorymonned

Skyla : Soloed
Drayden : You can do damage but his Pokemon resist electric so it is not a good idea to use him but you could get some revenge kills with Wild Charge
Marlon : Dischage + Wild Charge = GG
Marshel : Same as Drayden minus the resist part I guess, plus Mienshao might outspeed you if you aren't a high enough level
Caitlin : Be careful, her Pokemon can hit hard but Sigliph goes down fairly easily due to its flying typing. If you have Signal Beam it will help alot.
Grimsly : Same as Caitlin but minus the Sigliph bit, also I don't think you can outright K.O Krookodile in one shot, so it should only revenge kill it if you are going to use it against the crocodile, leading with it and using an X Special on him when Liepard uses Fake Out might allow you to OHKO it though.
Shauntel : Drifblim can be taken out with Wild Charge but it can't really take on anything else, Golurk murders it.
Iris : It could possibly take on Archeops and Lapras, but overall should only be used as revive/heal fodder

Lucario : Lucario will be Lucario, Top Tier.

Leavanny Top Tier

Type : Bug/Grass is good because there aren't alot of pokemon in this game that can hit it super effectively

Moves : Gets it's 3 best moves in the form of Swords Dance, X-scissor and Leaf Blade by leveling up and can use Seed Bomb for it's grass STAB until it gets Leaf Blade if it doesn't know it already.

Evolving : You can just grind against that idiot with the Drilbur and Marill just north of Caseltia City once it becomes a Sewaddle, Just take on Sandile on route 4 until then

Stats : Being fairly bulky and easily capable of outpowering Cobalion if you get a good nature is all Leavanny needs, but it can be better if you give it some team support such as pokemon that resist fire, flying and poison.

Major Battles :

Burgh : Leavanny can do well here if it outspeeds Burgh's Leavanny because it can hit with a super-effective Bug Bite

Elesa : Do not take on Emolga or Zebstrika, can do okay against Flaffy though, and even though I said not to it can effectivley revenge zebstrika if it hasn't got to many flame charge boosts and is lower leveled.

Clay : Seed Bomb or Leaf Blade absolutely wrecks everything here not called Excadrill, though it is the same situation as Zebstrika for it.

Skyla : Turned into bird food here plus you should be soloing with a Zebstrika anyhow.

Drayden : It's okay here, can't use it's best move due to resistince though, meaning it should be kept out apart for being fodder.

Marlon : Walk in that gym, Solo Marlon, Walk out with the badge. (Also possible with Zebstrika)

Shauntel : Golurk is the only Pokemon you can safeley kill, and even taking it on is risky

Grimsley : Give Leavanny an X Attack as Leipard Fake Out's and Sweep, but bisharp is a big threat to this strategy because it is a steel type.

Caitlin : Siglyph is dangerous, everything else gets hit hard by X-scissor

Marlon : Resists fighting, gets smashed by rock-type coverage

Iris : Could take out a weakened Lapras, Druddigon or Aggron, should be used as a sacrifice for healing or reviving once they go down.

[ANinyMouse]

What's with all the hate on Golurk? Are you guys nuts?

Edited the post a bit.

From the start of the game until badge 7, I used a team of: Samurott, Lucario, Ampharos, Scolipede, Reuniclus, and Flygon. Once I got past Marlon, however, I totally changed up my team. The wild Pokemon of Giant Chasm, Route 23 & Victory Road are such high levels, swapping out the ones that were dragging was a snap. Very minimal grinding.

Flygon was very weak without Earthquake (Earth Power playing off his much lower Special Attack), Dragon Tail was pitiful... I replaced him with Golurk and never regretted it. Are you guys seriously complaining that you have to find one with Iron Fist instead of Klutz? Why in the world is Azurill such a high tier, then? Golurk is just like every other Pokemon out there with one good ability and one bad one. So, with one Heart Scale (which are abundant in BW2) for Shadow Punch, Golurk took on Shauntal & Marshal like a champ. While Flygon definitely is a good Pokemon, and he is helpful for the time you have him, Golurk is a far better Pokemon in-game from the point you reach Victory Road, imo. Higher attack, better defenses... I even spent some shards and gave him Ice Punch, although I mostly used Shadow Punch, Fly (YES, it destroyed Marshal), and Earthquake. A viable user of Fly in battle is a level of convenience I'm not accustomed to. It's GREAT to be able to use your main battle party Pokemon to fly around the map... I waste too much time in the PC as it is. Also, Golurk are by no means rare! Easy as pie to find one with 30% chance in the first room of Victory Road, right next to a Pokemon Center! Whatever tier he's in, it isn't bottom or low. Say Mid if you want, due to late arrival, but his power and utility is undeniable.

I also swapped out Samurott for Walrein, which was a good trade up. The Ice STAB and increased bulk helped tons in the Elite Four. I went with Thick Fat, for the Fire resistance. Samurott has bad Special Defense, anyway. Crunch helped, too. He was surviving hits that no one else was able to stand up to. This guy's blubber saved mine many times. A good Mid tier choice. All you have to do is make sure to set your DS clock to a Winter month in-game. I don't feel like Undella Bay is that late in the game, really. The level-scaled experience system was a brilliant idea on Game Freak's part.

Volcarona took Lucario's spot. Lucario does fantastic early on (from badge two on), but he's so weak... weak defensively despite all the resistances; weak offensively because all he has from badge two up until badge EIGHT is Force Palm and whatever TMs you can scrounge up, like Rock Slide and Shadow Claw... low BP moves, all of them. Volcarona was a tough sell, since I was forced to spend my shards and get him Signal Beam. However, Fire Blast was easy to get, and by the time I reached the Elite Four, I had Flamethrower and Quiver Dance. Volcarona destroyed Caitlin by himself, and mauled about half of Iris' team. Definitely a High tier choice, but not top tier due to difficulty.

Reuniclus is a bit difficult to use, due to how weak Solosis is, but the higher-than-average special attack from Solosis all the way to Reuniclus helps. I swapped out Reuniclus for Metagross, although this was mostly just because I felt I needed at least one Steel-type to get past Iris... and I desperately needed a Rock resist after ditching Lucario. To be honest, although I enjoyed the physical offense over the special offense due to my team balance, and I liked that Metagross wasn't dead slow like Reuniclus is... I think Reuniclus is in fact a better Pokemon in general. Hammer Arm helped Metagross pull its weight, but honestly, I think Reuniclus is just as viable as Metagross is, if not moreso, due to Recover, Magic Guard, and bulk. Lack of resistances holds it back, however, and it's slower than everything. Both Pokemon have their shortcomings. Mid tier for both, I'd say. Maybe Bullet Punch would have changed my mind, but maybe not... I needed type coverage more than anything, so it was Meteor Mash, Psychic, Shadow Ball and Hammer Arm.

Ampharos really started dragging his behind by the time I got to the Elite Four. Should have ditched him and taken back one of my older teammates, perhaps. Only used him once, against Lapras. Great type coverage, decent bulk and special offense... but really mediocre. Helpful early on, though. I only used him because I resolved NOT to use Magnemite in my initial playthrough... because Manezone is top tier and I wanted a challenge... and to take a path less traveled. Ampharos is definitely Mid tier. Struggles to find a good Electric move to use for many levels, outside of Volt Switch, which is awkward to use.

Scolipede, assuming you get an Adamant one like I patiently waited for, is a good choice. I was extremely disappointed in Game Freak, however, in that they totally forgot to give you any Poison TMs other than Venoshock before endgame! No Poison Jab really hurts in BW2... I used Scolipede in BW, and Poison Jab really helps against the Fighting-types Scolipede would like to laugh at. Resorting to Double Edge sucks. Scolipede is really fast, though. Megahorn mauls stuff and comes at level 30 with a Heart Scale, but is that enough? Mid to Low tier in BW2. Definitely Mid tier in BW1, though.

I've got 200+ hours on White 2 now, so it's a bit fuzzy now how each individual Pokemon did at each gym battle, sorry. Do I need to supply tons more information? This thread just caught my eye.

[meddle]

Agreeing with ANinyMouse that Golurk is a pretty beastly in-game choice. It should be Mid-tier at worst. The utility of Fly, its ability to solo Marshal (and do well vs. Caitlin), and its 124 base attack are big pluses. It also has Earthquake when you catch it, which is convenient. Its only real weak points are its availability and the fact that Grimsley and Shauntal will rough him up a bit, but he can get some hits in on Cofagrigus, Scrafty, and Shauntal's own Golurk. My Golurk also did decently vs. Iris' Aggron, Archeops, and Druddigon.

[Lucchini]

Mid tier is kinda pushing it for a mediocre Pokemon who comes after all the gyms are behind you, has a type disadvantage against two of the elites and is still hit effectively by a large part of the other two E4 teams. Low/Bottom depending on whether we divide the two tiers.

[ANinyMouse]

But did you use him or are you just throwing your weight around? In my playthrough, at level 58 or so, my Golurk took on approximately... 30-40% of the Elites without fainting much at all. As in, he didn't faint any more than anybody else did. He was level 60 by the end.

The hardest opponent to defeat was definitely Chandelure. My team in general was very slow, and I think I barely defeated it because I forgot to use Revives after feeding it most of my team as death fodder... adrenaline rush, I suppose. I think the problem was, Walrein was taking near 50% from Shadow Ball, and Volcarona had no way to do much damage. I think I swapped Flamethrower for Psychic, perhaps, and then re-taught him Flamethrower afterwards...

I'd also like to note that I played my game on SET all the way until I got to White Treehollow, where I started playing on SWITCH mode. I was definitely not going easy on myself, or my Pokemon.





I'd love to do another playthrough for you guys, but there's no way I'm deleting my save file after I put so much work into it.

EDIT: Sorry, I did disregarded the format in the OP. For your standards:

Samurott - Mid
Availability: yup
Stats: No one stat jumps out at you. It's not fast, it has average defenses, its attack stats are good but not great. If it had more bulk or speed, the somewhat high offensive stats would be better, but since the whole package is so meh... Most other Water-types do something this guy does better.
Typing: Pure Water is a good type. Coverage attacks are all weak, though.
Move Pool: Just enough to get by. Ubiquitous Surf, Ice Beam... Megahorn is nice, but I already had two Pokemon with Bug-type attacks. I suppose if you had no other physical Bug-type users, it would be great.
Major Battles: Does fine against Cheren's gym. Does fine against Roxie's gym. Does kinda bad against Burgh's gym. Does horrible against Elesa's gym. Does well against Clay's gym. Does fine against Skyla's gym. Dropped him for Walrein before either before or after Drayden. Just... such a boring Pokemon to use. All his level-up move are horrible after Razor Shell.
Misc.: Torrent sucks.

Walrein - Mid
Availability: About halfway through. Gotta set your clock to December or some such, however. That requires no effort at all and only disables daily events for less than 24 hours, but perhaps some people are put off by that? Spheal and Sealeo are plentiful and come in a variety of levels.
Stats: One of the bulkiest Water-types available... way bulkier than Samurott. Attack and Special Attack are both mediocre, but not low. Slower than Samurott without a +Speed nature.
Type: The added weaknesses and reduced resistances of Water/Ice + Thick Fat suck, as opposed to pure Water.
Move Pool: Crunch is nice. Surf & Ice Beam, but the STAB on Ice Beam is really fantastic! Body Slam is way better than anything Samurott has. Gets Encore, just like Samurott, and Hail, too, in case you got Ice Body + Blizzard. Rock Slide is always good. Learns a lot of HMs. Spend some shards and pick up Super Fang if it pleases you.
Major Battles: Destroys most of Drayden's gym, can slowly but surely wear down Marlon's gym with Body Slam and Rock Slide. Go all out on Carracosta, though. Does well against Shauntal and Iris, but horribly against Marshal. Does well against Ghetsis.
Misc.: Thick Fat makes it worth it, otherwise I'd say no way Jose. WAY, WAY easier to come by than Lapras, nearly the same stats, and resistance to Fire is way better than immunity to Water in a game with so few Water-types running around.

Scolipede - Low
Availability: Right after Cheren. Not rare, and the doubles grass means you'll run into them more often.
Stats: Great Defense early on is a big help, and he's one of the fastest early Pokemon. Attack is a bit low for an only-physical attacker, so Adamant is almost required. Low HP is a huge let-down considering how FAT Scolipede is.
Type: Bug/Poison has some good resistances. The weaknesses aren't bad, considering he has no double weaks, unlike most bugs.
Move Pool: Starts out fantastic, lets you down right at the end. Protect, Poison Tail, Rollout, and Bug Bite are great early on, but lack of Poison STAB later on is a HUGE let-down. In BW1, the Poison Jab TM was found way earlier... Megahorn, Rock Slide, and later, Earthquake, are all fantastic. Double Edge makes fighting Fighting-types bearable, but the recoil is awful with such a low HP stat. Superpower can be useful on some teams, but still isn't useful for Fighting-types because of the Defense drop... although it lets you maul Steels before you get Earthquake, I guess. Toxic by level is fantastic, though. Aqua Tail is pretty good, but expensive for only 90 BP.
Major Battles: Great against both Roxie and Bugh, so-so against Elesa and Clay, bad against Skyla, fine against Drayden (the high speed is welcome against his slow Pokemon), Marlon, and Ghetsis. Great against Grimsley; can do backup duty on Caitlin, Marshal, and Iris.
Misc.: No Poison STAB lets you down once Poison Tail loses steam.

Ampharos - Mid
Availability: Right at the beginning, and although not common, is not as rare as Riolu.
Stats: Slow, somewhat bulky, good Special Attack. Starts out frail, though.
Type: Pure Electric is fine. Ground attacks are rare in Unova, outside Driftveil Gym.
Move Pool: Thunder Wave is the big selling point, though later on, you'll probably let it go for more coverage. Decent Electric STAB outside of Volt Switch is somewhat annoying for a while, leaving you with Thunder Punch. Discharge, Fire Punch, Power Gem, Signal Beam, Light Screen, Confuse Ray and Cotton Guard are all great attacks, and all by level-up.
Major Battles: Invaluable against Cheren due to Static and Thunder Wave. Destroys Skyla and Marlon. Useless against Clay, bad against Drayden outside paralysis. After Marlon, usefulness is situational... nothing particular stands out.
Misc.: Static is a great ability. Horrible Speed sucks. For whatever reason, doesn't seem to put out much damage throughout the game.

Lucario - ???
Dropped him early on for Volcarona. Surprised at how pitiful he seemed without high BP Fighting STAB or priority.

Volcarona - Mid
Availability: Guaranteed encounter, but you have to walk through a lot of caves to find him, which is annoying with a full party. Bring 5 or less Pokemon. Shows up right after Clay, I believe. Not having to raise Larvesta is a boon.
Stats: Amazing. Kills everything, fast, not very frail at all.
Type: Bug/Fire is great defensively and offensively, with only the double Rock weakness hindering it, really.
Move Pool: Start out with nothing, really. Once you get Fire Blast or Signal Beam, however, it begins. Everything must die... and then you get Quiver Dance, Flamethower, Psychic, Roost, and Giga Drain. Shame Hurricane is level 90.
Major Battles: With Fire Blast, does well as backup against Skyla with its high speed, though of course it will fall by itself. Drayden and Ghetsis are dealt with if you picked up Signal Beam. Marlon will kill it. Destroys Caitlin by itself. If you want, you can also destroy Grimsley and Marshal solo, too. Thanks, Quiver Dance.
Misc.: Flame Body is very nice, since there's no space for Will-O-Wisp. Give him a Rocky Helmet! Surprisingly good item choice for him.

Reuniclus - Hmmm... Mid
Availability: Quite common. As soon as you reach Nimbassa, you can get one. White 2 only, though.
Stats: Starts out with high Special Attack, and keep on rolling in that regard. Defenses are awful at first, which can be a problem at times, but they end up fantastic in the end. Slower than almost everything. The Speed can be frustrating at times.
Type: Pure Psychic is lame. No bones about it. Weaknesses aren't played on much, though.
Move Pool: Fantastic. Psyshock right off the bat is great. Puts Munna to shame in BW1. Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Thunder, Reflect, Light Screen, RECOVER, Thunder Wave... all you need.
Major Battles: Nice backup for Elesa. It doesn't care about paralysis, since it's so slow to begin with. Hits all the gyms for at least neutral damage. Get Energy Ball in your hometown, and make Marlon cry. Marshal and Caitlin will fight you hard, but will go down. Not great against Iris, but not horrible. Grimsley & Shauntal will have you for breakfast.
Misc.: Magic Guard is amazing. With this and Recover, it is bulkier than any other Psychic-type in Unova, arguably. Probably hits the hardest, too! Lack of resistances means he doesn't support the team synergy much at all, however... which is, honestly, my only real gripe, albeit a valid one to consider above all else, and for this and the weakness of Solosis alone I give him Mid. High tier otherwise.

Metagross - Mid
Availability: You gotta beat Marlon and chase Team Plasma around a bit before you're privy to the deepest parts of the Giant Chasm, which is getting a bit late in the game. Comes at a high level, so it won't be a Metang for long!
Stats: Comes ready for evolution. Beastly Attack and Defense, and the rest is good, too -- even Special Attack.
Type: Steel/Psychic comes with great resistances, of course, but the offensive STAB combo isn't anything to brag about. Neutrality to Dark and Ghost kinda sucks for a Steel-type, considering Ghetsis and the Elite Four.
Move Pool: Meteor Mash, Psychic, Bullet Punch, Rock Slide, Shadow Ball, Hammer Arm, Zen Headbutt. Quite nice, only lacking a move to overwhelm the masses. Meteor Mash just... is good, but not great, for some reason.
Major Battles: Can help against Ghetsis, though he by no means overwhelms him. Caitlin is helpless against him, for the most part. Does well against the entire Elite Four + Champion, though not overly so due to lack of Dark, Fighting & Ghost resistance. Really helps against Kyurem, btw, if he gives you trouble.
Misc.: Clear Body is a good in-game ability. Metagross seems like he ought to be able to tear things apart, but in fact he's just very solid all around. Good team synergy, as opposed to Reuniclus and most other Psychics. If only Metang came earlier...

Flygon - Low
Availability: You can get a Trapinch as soon as you beat Burgh, though the smart ones will delay gratification and pick up a Vibrava outside Reversal Mountain. Unless... you're a glutton or punishment. That's like, the cutoff for adding Pokemon to your team and still getting a high tier, I guess. Reversal Mountain, I mean. Trapinch are quite rare, but Vibrava are common.
Stats: From hideous, to bad, to good. All that toil... is it worth it?
Type: Ground/Dragon with Levitate is fantastic. His sole redeeming quality. Will fit on any team. The much-coveted Rock resist. Levitate is great for the people who can't suffer a Flying-type on their team.
Move Pool: Somewhat good. The problem is that the moves you want all come REALLY late or post-game: Earthquake, Dragon Claw, Outrage. Earth Power and Dragon Breath/Tail are weaksauce. Rock Slide and Crunch are nothing special at this point. If you buy the expensive Roost for Flygon, it helps keep him relevant, but... Can learn Fly, but is too weak to use it well. Learns a bunch of other stuff, but mostly Special attacks...
Major Battles: Even against Elesa, the horrible defenses of Trapinch will let you down. Same for Clay and Skyla. By the time you get to Drayden, he has a Flygon that's probably at a higher level, faster, and stronger than yours. Flygon really does badly against Drayden, though he can help clean up with a +Speed nature, like mine had. Doesn't help much against Marlon. Doesn't help much at all against anybody. Too weak for too long.
Misc.: If you got Vibrava earlier than level 35, and Flygon earlier than 45, and if Game Freak hadn't taken away Dragon Claw at level 45... but alas, none of those things are true. He looks cool, though.

Golurk - Mid
Availability: Commonly found in the first room 1 of Victory Road. If you're unhappy with a member of your team, or if you've been travelling with an HM slave and want backup for the Elite Four, hey, now's your chance: Golurk is the last of the great Pokemon opened up to you until after beating the Champion.
Stats: Great. Higher than average Attack, good defenses, but slow. 55 base Speed isn't dead slow, however.
Type: Ground/Ghost resists Rock, Fighting, Electric, Poison, Bug, and Normal. Common weaknesses to Water, Grass, Ghost, Dark, and Ice can be a problem if your team can't support them, but if you have no answer to any of those type by now... you are in big trouble, bud.
Move Pool: One Heart Scale buys you Shadow Punch, which is all you need to give Shauntal nightmares. If you have some red shards, give him Ice Punch and give Iris a run for her money. Earthquake is invaluable, and other than Excadrill, Sandslash or Camerupt, he may be the only Pokemon on your team to have it by this point. Fly, coupled with that huge Attack, will defeat Marshal by itself. Rock Slide, Drain Punch, Superpower, Fire Punch or Thunder Punch might be of use, but I think the first four moves I mentioned are the best. If you have no more use for Fly, he gets plenty of stuff to replace it with.
Major Battles: Bye, Marshal. Most of Caitlin's team will fall to one Shadow Punch to the face. Shauntal depends on your level: her own Golurk and Drifblim will likely be easy, but you might not be able to quite overtake Cofagrigus or Chandelure. Grimsley is not a total wash, either: depending on your health level and stats, you may be able to defeat Bisharp and Scrafty. Even though Liepard is weak, it's guaranteed to hit you first, and that's going to dent your HP too much -- you'll be gimped right there. Iris' Hydreigon will maul you, so avoid it. Druddigon, Archeops, and Aggron are all fair game to Golurk. Haxorus is a pretty even match. You probably won't finish it off, but one Ice Punch to the face will leave it badly limping. Hit it until Iris stops healing it or it kills you, then finish it off with another Pokemon, most likely.
Misc.: You have to get Iron Fist. Golurk is like a last-minute cram session before an exam that saves your butt, I suppose. A good choice for the "last" battles of the game, no matter what your other teammates may look like. Plus, I mean... who doesn't love 9'2" tall ghost robots made of stone?

[Lucchini]

'Not fainting much at all' isn't exactly solid performance, and you did admit that the rest of your E4 team wasn't very proficient (aside from Volcarona). A competent party isn't in any need of Golurk's help, I would argue.

Iron Fist isn't nearly as important to Golurk as Azumarill's ability is to it. Shadow Punch, for example, goes from 60 to 72 base power when powered up, which is still rather unimpressive. While it can probably OHKO some of the frailer of Shauntal's Pokemon with any of the attack-boosting items available to you, they go first and strike it very hard. It's not surviving more than one hit there, and in some instances (Chandelure) you're not keeping it in period. For Caitlin, you're safe against Musharna, but anybody who isn't named Pelipper takes care of her lead just as easily. The rest have either Shadow Ball or Energy Ball for you. Grimsley is all physical, but Cursing up is a bad idea because of Night Slash's high crit rate (used by 3/5 Pokemon). Marshal is Golurk's moment to shine with Curse/Fly, but there's Payback everywhere, Conkeldurr has Bulk Up and Lucario Shadow Ball. Its other STAB is surprisingly useless since the Pokemon it hits super-effectively with it outspeed and threaten it with an SE Shadow Ball. Against Iris, it checks Aggron but doesn't do a whole lot to the rest of her Pokemon.

Spamming Revives when you can't handle the opposition is neither an efficient nor an elegant way of playing the game, and that your Pokemon make such a playstyle necessary isn't credit to them at all.

[Fatecrashers]

Curse Golurk is not a valid strategy lolol

[TM13IceBeam]

You definitely aren't the only person who've played the game on Set, and I've done White Treehollow all the way to Area 10 on Set too (i just need to get my bum off to clear it once and for all). My team for the Elite 4 ranged around the lower 50s (my highest was a L56 Samurott). That's not mentioning how bad I felt my team was anyway (Samurott/Magnezone/Lucario/Mienshao/Braviary/Darmanitan) :/ Despite that, Braviary at a lower level than everything else (I think it was L49 or 50? cant rmb) was capable of taking on Marshall and only ended up fainting because Conkeldurr was too bulky to take out with a Fly(lolthroh). It's a wonder how STAB attacks can actually make up for level difference, and Braviary is imo a much more solid choice for Marshall than Golurk, especially when it comes down to it, I'd rather place my cards on a 20% chance of Stone Edge missing than a 0% chance of Payback doing so.

I honestly have no idea why people are still not using Return Lucario because Return hits harder than a STAB Force Palm and that should be your main attack midgame. Lucario can also hit physically defensive opponents hard with Dark Pulse, which also helps him to bypass Ghost-types. The best midgame movepool for Lucario imo is Return/Dark Pulse/Force Palm/Swords Dance. I eventually converted mine during the E4 to a mixed Lucario (Aura Sphere/Work Up over the last two moves), but Lucario is strong enough with Return and has good enough resistances to last you throughout the game. I've used Lucario in both my JP and US playthroughs of the game, and I felt that Lucario was capable of pulling his weight in both versions.

[Lucchini]

Originally Posted by Fat Fatecrashers

Curse Golurk is not a valid strategy lolol

It is for Marshal. You curse up, become slow so that Payback hits last and doesn't hit as hard and then start killing stuff... well, until CM Shadow Ball Lucario comes in anyway.

IceBeam, why would Lucario function differently depending on the language version?

[Fatecrashers]

did you know that curse works differently for ghost-types?

[breh]

Golurk comes at probably the worst possible moment; it has very little utility against any trainer that's not Iris. It's probably best stuck in Low; bottom is a bit too harsh IMO, especially for the nice earthquake you get.

EDIT @ Fate: I got the joke; Golurk will hurt itself. It seems I misunderstood the meaning of slow clap though :/

[ANinyMouse]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

I'd rather place my cards on a 20% chance of Stone Edge missing than a 0% chance of Payback doing so.

Payback shouldn't be a OHKO anyway, if memory serves me right.

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

Spamming Revives when you can't handle the opposition is neither an efficient nor an elegant way of playing the game, and that your Pokemon make such a playstyle necessary isn't credit to them at all.

I wasn't Spamming revives, mind you. I used a few during the entire E4 challenge. You never use any in-game? Good for you, I guess? I'm just not as good as you, I suppose.

Keep in mind, this thread, and Pokemon in general, is just a silly child's game, played for fun. The fact that some of us adults still love to play it doesn't change that. If I get through he E4 using, say, 6 revives or something, do I have less fun than if I get through using 0? Does that mean I get more points/better rewards? Nope. Same result. In Pokemon, it's win or lose. In this case, the only factors are ease and time spent. 5 Battles are nothing compared to the thousands of others you take part in during any one playthough.

Golurk for Low, whatever floats your boat. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. I think you ought to use one before bashing it is all.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

IceBeam, why would Lucario function differently depending on the language version?

It's not about language version :X
I meant that I used it on two completely different teams (iirc the only other overlapping member was mag because mag .-.)

And well, Golurk is kind of a conundrum. You want him to be fast enough to outrun Chandelure to kill it with Shadow Ball, yet if Golurk outspeeds yet fails to kill Conkeldurr in one Fly it risks getting hit hard with full-powered Payback.

Golurk is at best "decent filler", and is not something I'd say Mid tier. Low at best. Sawk on the other hand is great filler material, with Heracross's offenses, Sturdy and a STAB Close Combat to dish out the pain. Golurk can't match Sawk in lategame utility.

[ANinyMouse]

Okay. See, that was an even-handed and winsome argument. I agree. I overestimated Golurk by your standards, and I agree with TM13 there.

(Mine couldn't take on Chandelure due to speed, but crushed Conkeldurr)

[Lucchini]

I agree about Sawk going to Mid. It can do so many useful things at base level with Sturdy and Close Combat, it's not funny. Its catch rate is low however, and it may take quite long to catch the one with the right ability, and Sturdy Sawk is so much better than one without it (unlike Magnezone who doesn't terribly mind not having it, I would argue).

Yeah, good lord that brainfart. Was looking through its learnpool and saw 'Curse' and quickly associated it with the non-ghost version for some reason (maybe because Golurk looks like one of 'em fighter folk and not Gengar and Misdreavus and whatnot... but yeah, no rational explanation).

@ANinyMouse
Sorry about that, didn't mean to imply what you got out of it, so I'll tone myself down next time I disagree with someone here. I get excited when tier lists are discussed and so I'm carried away at times. Wasn't trying to prove my superiority or anything (though I do get really picky about this kinda stuff), it's just normal for somebody from my culture to argue about the minutest things this way.

Also, Conkeldurr doesn't run Payback on either difficulty in this game, so Golurk is surely surviving one hit from it. One problem could be Bulk Up being used while Fly is charging, depriving you of your OHKO, and getting stronger for the next attack.

Chandelure is definitely a bad matchup though, because it comes with Choice Scarf (I assume we're discussing CM), so you're not outspeeding it in any imaginable scenario unless you stuff it with status first.

I also wanted to point out that Gliscor is an excellent endgame Pokemon. Tanking functions similar to Skarm's (better typing) but far better offensive capabilities. Could be another candidate for Mid alongside Sawk, though it exists for even longer, but not long enough to fit High IMO.

[meddle]

I'll concede that Golurk is probably Low tier based on the arguments on this page and the fact that other 'mons are more efficient at sweeping Marshal.

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

I assume we're discussing CM

We're not. CM should probably have its own thread.

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

I also wanted to point out that Gliscor is an excellent endgame Pokemon. Tanking functions similar to Skarm's (better typing) but far better offensive capabilities. Could be another candidate for Mid alongside Sawk, though it exists for even longer, but not long enough to fit High IMO.

I actually used Gligar/Gliscor (with Reminder Girl'd Ice Fang) for Drayden and the E4 and its bulk and relatively strong attack stat were nice to have. I'm not sure it's better than Walrein in terms of taking out Dragons swiftly but it definitely works. Gliscor can tank Outrages a lot more feasibly, too. Having to Battle Subway or PWT for 8 BP to get the Razor Fang to evolve Gligar is annoying and a little time-consuming. Despite his usefulness, he's probably Low tier based on the evolution hurdle alone.

On that note, I don't see it on the list at all, so:

Gligar - Low
Availability: Earliest is Route 11, so you can get it (and evolve it) before fighting Drayden. Getting it to evolve into Gliscor will sap some time from your playthrough since you'll need 8 BP to purchase its evolution item, the Razor Fang. I'm giving it Low tier status based on availability alone. If it were available sooner and without the evolution hurdle, it would definitely be at least High.
Stats: Very bulky in terms of Defense with good attack and speed.
Typing: Ground/Flying has a lot of nice resists and makes a decent STAB combination for the playthrough.
Move Pool: It will come with Acrobatics right away which as most people know is an extremely potent move when you don't hold an item (or use a Flying Gem). You'll have to use Dig since you won't have access to the Earthquake TM yet but it will still do decent damage. You can round out the set with Swords Dance (lvl. 38) and Ice Fang from the Reminder Girl once it's evolved into Gliscor. Overall, very little work for a nice moveset with good coverage.
Major Battles: Does work vs. Drayden if you teach it Ice Fang. He'll be mostly death fodder for Marlon but will be able to get a hit or two in to weaken something before dying since Marlon's team is slow. Very decent vs. the E4, especially versus Marshal and Grimsley. Very useful vs. Iris' Aggron, Druddigon, Archeops, and Haxorus.
Misc.: Hyper Cutter is the better ability.

[Lucchini]

Gliscor is actually a 5% encounter from the rustling grass spots, so you needn't collect BP to evolve it at all. Acrobatics always outdamages Ice Fang (I also tutored this and regretted it) unless you're dealing with a dragon that's 4x weak to ice, which only applies to one of Drayden's Pokemon (two on CM but you said you don't want to discuss that) so that's your primary way of dealing damage. I didn't find myself using Dig at all (probably because a fighting-type covers some of the same mons with it) but I did, incidentally, keep X-Scissor on it, so that I could enjoy healing from Leftovers while attacking Grimsley and Caitlin.

Still think it's Mid, but I haven't got much to compare it to, since we haven't agreed how we're tiering Lapras, Starmie, etc.

I want to discuss Zorua, is it really good enough for High Tier? I ended up dropping mine because it was quite a disappointment.

[Antihaxxer]

He learns Nasty Plot / Flamethrower too late but he's still very powerful, makes 2 Elite 4 a joke, evolves fast and doesn't need grinding

[celever]

I know that Azurill already has a description - or at least a place on the ladder - but I'd like to do another for Azurill, this time nominating it for top tier.

Azurill - top
Availability - Right at the start, in floccessy ranch. You won't have to spend much time searching since it's got the second highest encounter rate there (I think, either Azurill or mareep - or both)
Stats Once it evolves into Azumarill it gets surprisingly bulky, with both of the defense stats quite a bit over 60 before you challenge Elesa. Attack stats shouldn't really be good, but huge power makes Azurill's attack stat high, just in time for Burgh!
Typing Well, it's thought largely round everywhere that water is the best type for in-game pokemon, and once Azurill is marill he is water type!
Move-pool & Major battles (They go 2 on 2 with Azumarill) For cheren's gym, you get Charm at level 11 which lets it take down Patrat easily and weaken Lillipup, despite poor offense at that stage, if you lower their attack by 2, and they're only boosting it by one, and since you have pretty good bulk you can survive lower hits. It's a stalling game, but it works great! It doesn't get much between cheren and Roxie but at level 23, a level lower than Burgh's highest, you get bounce (and before that slam) and they both take use of the huge power ability (when you catch one please make sure it has this ability without an attack hindrance in nature) but bounce, a flying attack, lets you get rid of Swadloon and Leavanny with ease and since he should have bubblebeam, he can probably get rid of dwebble, if not I let Psyduck take care of him. Now, I used Azurill once before, but I changed it for a magnemite for Roxie (I didn't know about bounce or anything like that) but in my mono-water run.. I only had water types to take down elesa, the electric gym leader, but I'd also replaced slam with strength at this point, and Azumarill learned Aqua ring (I also did a little domination of the battle subway, and get half way through train 4 (yes it was mix with my rival, and he basically supported with charm, but who cares, he had good enough bulk to survive!) is pretty good) and I got all my pokemon to level 32, 2 levels higher than Elesa's highest, 30. I knew that Azumarill would be the best pokemon here out of Psyduck, Ducklett (I traded for ducklett since my friend wanted a dewott I figured it ok) and Azumarill so I led with Psyduck. 2HKO and was outspeed, only managed an aqua tail on flaaffy that did next to nothing. Then, since I wasn't planning on using ducklett at all, I realized that he'll be able to outspeed one of them and land a surf (my friend was further through than I) and it got Flaaffy into red. Azumarill came in and swept all of her pokemon. Every one, after I'd set up an aqua ring (and she was holding leftovers) I only actually used 1 super potion on it and a paralyze heal, and yes, he did have strength. Anyway, Azumarill swept Clay with ease and that's as far as I've got, but looking at it's movepool I can relearn it roll out for Skyla and try a roll out sweep since she can't hit me super-effectively. It has ice punch via tutor for Drayden, and Skyla thinking about it, and he should sweep pretty well since Drayden nor Skyla can hit Azumarill super-effectively while Azumarill can. It has great move coverage for all gyms except for Marlon, its own type so you may have to let something else take care of him.
Misc. I repeat, make sure he has the huge power ability.

[breh]

Originally Posted by Fat Antihaxxer

He learns Nasty Plot / Flamethrower too late but he's still very powerful, makes 2 Elite 4 a joke, evolves fast and doesn't need grinding

Agreed; Zoroark is definitely high worthy.